Programs to avoid?

[gibber09]

Going for the '07 match and trying to compile a list of programs that I should leave off my application. Any advice would be appreciated.

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[coogmed]

Going for the '07 match and trying to compile a list of programs that I should leave off my application. Any advice would be appreciated.

You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that- Give us an idea about career goals, community vs. university, area that you would like to end up, etc. and that'll be a good starting off point. There are just too many IM programs out there, more good than bad, to sift through.

 

[Mumpu]

I hear Dr Nick's Medical Residency of "Hi Everybody" is so-so.

 

[Qafas]

Going for the '07 match and trying to compile a list of programs that I should leave off my application. Any advice would be appreciated.

I would leave off just about all the programs which don't offer the specialty you are interested in. Unless, of course, you want to match in a specialty you aren't interested in. In that case I would leave off all the programs which do offer the specialty you are interested in. Yeah, I know....it's a real biatch not to be able to match in both. Sowwy!

 

[gibber09]

Not interested in specializing and I'm aiming for a community program, preferably in the Tri-state area (NY, NJ, CN).

 

[PalCareGrl]

Avoid NY Methodist - when I interviewed, one of my interviewers basically told me that my application was too good to be there and that I would be happier somewhere else. The PD is delusional and thinks his program is great.... yeah for 11 months of call... and none of the residents I spoke to were a) happy b) had chosen this as their first choice - they had either scrambled in or hadn't gotten the specialty they wanted and then scrambled in based only on location.

Just my opinion but I'm sorry that I even interviewed there (although it put the other programs in perspective... and no I didn't rank them).

 

[daelroy]

UT Southwestern is terrible. The residents are miserable there and are known to tell interviewees to avoid the place. It got so bad that the program had to limit interviewees to spokespeople; they didnt want them talking to the residents. They are known as slave drivers that overwork their residents and treat them poorly. It may have fine academic reputation but in regards to lifestyle and satisfaction with the problem, it's downright awful.

 

[Tinsley]

UT Southwestern is terrible. The residents are miserable there and are known to tell interviewees to avoid the place. It got so bad that the program had to limit interviewees to spokespeople; they didnt want them talking to the residents. They are known as slave drivers that overwork their residents and treat them poorly. It may have fine academic reputation but in regards to lifestyle and satisfaction with the problem, it's downright awful.

Apply to ALL schools that people tell you to avoid. That way you can make your own opinion instead of adopting those of the biased people above.

 

[Hoosierdaddy]

I don't know where these rumors about UTSW come from, but from my personal experience, they are false. I'm currently an intern at UTSW, and I really have no problem with the program. Granted, it is a very tough program where the residents work very hard. However, almost all of us are extremely happy with our choice. The autonomy that we have at Parkland is unmatched. We run the hospital. Parkland has an amazing amount of pathology come through the door which you would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. By the time our residents finish the program, they can take care of anything. Our VA experience is less than perfect, but is similar to other VA's in the country in terms of poor ancillary/nursing services, etc. I've never been mistreated by an attending or felt that the program was "malignant" in any way. But, again, it is definitely not a program for those that don't want to work hard.

Next year should be even better. Our call is switching to q5, and they are reducing the number of rotations at the VA. I wouldn't pay much attention to the slander and rumors that fly around on these boards. If you're interested in a program, I would just interview there and see how you like it yourself.

 

[MSIV]

"almost all of us are extremely happy with our choice. The autonomy that we have at Parkland is unmatched. We run the hospital. Parkland has an amazing amount of pathology come through the door which you would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. By the time our residents finish the program, they can take care of anything."

You know something, its really amazing...after interviewing at a dozen programs this past year, EVERY SINGLE resident I met, regardless of the program, said almost the exact same thing pretty much word-for-word. I mean seriously, do all program directors give you this speech on a laminated index card on your first day of internship and tell you to memorize it? Its really uncanny. Even at programs known for having a little less autonomy (such as Cornell), I heard the same speech.

You know what I want to do, I want to find the one academic program in which residents have no autonomy, everyone is unhappy, only "bread and butter" cases come through the door, and the graduates are ill-prepared for clinical practice.

Sorry to jump all over you, but after hearing the same line 89 times, it starts to get a little annoying. Especially the "amazing amount of pathology...which you would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere" part. Come on, what does this mean? Parkland is a fantastic hospital, but why is it unique in this regard? Why do you see more pathology than the academic centers in NY or Boston or Baltimore or LA or SF or Chicago or Philadelphia or St. Louis, etc? That encompasses ALOT of hospitals. Just be honest...EVERYBODY believes this about "their" hospital.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Apply to ALL schools that people tell you to avoid. That way you can make your own opinion instead of adopting those of the biased people above.

It's almost as if there is a reason a supposedly top 10 program in a major city didn't fill

 

[BStein76]

You know something, its really amazing...after interviewing at a dozen programs this past year, EVERY SINGLE resident I met, regardless of the program, said almost the exact same thing pretty much word-for-word. I mean seriously, do all program directors give you this speech on a laminated index card on your first day of internship and tell you to memorize it?

Considering the amount of memorization just to get through day to day residency I would assume this phrase is not so much memorized word for word. I think this is where interviews help you discern through the dog and pony shows of selling a program. There are always rumors about the top programs and only through an interview can you make somewhat of an informed judgement. Certain parts of the interview are good for scrutinizing the program. For example, morning report. Does the chief randomly call on the upper levels or the interns (are the interns awake or even present)? Is the differential comprehensive or narrow? How much is EBM emphasized? Who does most of the teaching-the chief, attending or the "randomly called on upper level"? Pre-interview dinners are also good especially if alcohol is present so housestaff drop their guard and are more forthcoming with their concerns about the program. The saying "If you pick at a scab long enough it will bleed" certainly holds true here.

 

[Mumpu]

Which program?

Don't apply to places where you would not want to live.

Consider the programs in light of what you would want to do. If you are interested in being a chief for the teaching opportunities, don't go to a place where the chiefs don't teach. If you want to be a hospitalist, don't go to a place that thinks general IM residency prepares you for hospitalist work and has never heard of hospitalist tracks. If your brain doesn't wake up until 10 am, don't go to a place where the morning report is at 7:30. Your probably know from your 3rd and 4th year experiences what does and doesn't float your boat as far as working and learning environments.

 

[lumanase]

Not interested in specializing and I'm aiming for a community program, preferably in the Tri-state area (NY, NJ, CN).

I've also been warned about NY Methodist too, and it was from a PGY2 who couldn't stand it anymore after internship and switch to my school's PM&R program. She said she had patient list in the 20's, did manual labor, weighted 95 lbs because of stress, and 4 of the 16 interns left with her.

Another program in the NY area is Cabrini. it was pretty bad, i felt like i wasted a morning for interviewing there. Even the chief resident who interviewed me had trouble telling me what he's going to practice after he's done.

 

[mig26x]

NY methodist every year has available spots in the scramble, for both, its Categorical and Primary care programs. every year.

 

[Texas12345]

The University of Colorado internal medicine program is having trouble as seen by their performance in the match. They interview more than enough people to match but they did not. There was tremendous turmoil when they fired a very prestigious chairman 3 years ago and they were unable to get anyone from outside the system to come in because of that. As a result they had to go internally to get someone. The chairman they have now is average (albeit a good teacher) but not an all star and is not able to attract high caliber faculty. There is also speculation about the move to the new hospital and the changes that will occur with that. They have lost several division heads including the head of Pulmonary/Crictical Care. They recently lost the program director who retired and they now have another internal faculty member who moved into his place. The new program director is not particularly strong or experienced. Colorado has a well deserved reputation of being malignant and that speaks for itself. You will work your tail off at this program. Every year several residents leave the program for various reasons but they do have turnover which is disturbing. Denver is a pretty cool town and the program has good training but it is not in the ranks with the top programs. There are many other programs that are better and in less transition.

 

[Mumpu]

What sort of first-hand experience do you have with U of Colorado? I'm just curious because your comments reflect what I've heard from several other people on the interview trail and it's gross misinformation.

Applicants who believed their misguided career advisors missed out on a great program and two people in scramble got very lucky. Yes, I'm biased but I was a very competitive applicant who consciously chose CU over places like Ann Arbor, WashU and UW. Arguably, actually having first-hand experience with a program rather than blindly perpetuating rumors helps in the decision-making process.

 

[mig26x]

Colorado had 3 unfilled spots this match.

 

[DRDARIA]

What sort of first-hand experience do you have with U of Colorado? I'm just curious because your comments reflect what I've heard from several other people on the interview trail and it's gross misinformation.

Applicants who believed their misguided career advisors missed out on a great program and two people in scramble got very lucky. Yes, I'm biased but I was a very competitive applicant who consciously chose CU over places like Ann Arbor, WashU and UW. Arguably, actually having first-hand experience with a program rather than blindly perpetuating rumors helps in the decision-making process.

Well, I didn't believe my "misguided career advisor". I formed my opinions based on my interview day at Colorado, and while I certainly didn't find it a bad program (I ranked them about #5, I think), it currently has problems, which will probably be resolved, but I didn't want to get caught up in the mess in the interim. One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, was they announced the change of PD something like two weeks before the ROL was due. Now, maybe I didn't remember properly, but they didn't mention they were doing this at interview day, and so it sort of felt sneaky. I also didn't find the residents particularly friendly. They spent all their time talking to the applicants from Colorado's med school, and sort of ignoring the rest of us. The big thing though was hearing the Colorado residents talking somewhat enviously about how happy the residents at St. Joes were! I asked some specific questions and got answers that didn't impress me. Even during the presentations, I felt there was a lot of emphasis on how nice it is to live in Colorado (which is a given-- most of us applied there in large part because of that), and very little on the concrete details of the program, which is what I wanted to hear.

So, if the things I perceived during the interview day were NOT true, then Colorado needs to do some work on how they present themselves. I'm sure they'll improve their presentation next year.

That said, and having interviewed at several of the major university type programs that have lots of residents, I suspect Colorado isn't much different than Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, several of the Texas programs, etc...

 

[coogmed]

Now, maybe I didn't remember properly, but they didn't mention they were doing this (changing PD's) at interview day, and so it sort of felt sneaky

I'm not jumping all over you here, but I specifically remember the PD mentioning this during my interview day. However, I was in one of the last groups and at that time while the search was pretty much over ( final dec. between one internal applicant and one outside applicant) it was technically still at the search commitee stage at that time. I stopped reading the tea leaves about this sort of thing less than halfway into interview season - there were PD's and chairs on their way out or just starting at at least a third of the places I applied (middle and top tier).

I do agree with you to some small extent that U Colorado did not do the best job of selling itself with regards the formal presentation, but I had an entirely different experience on my interview day with the residents and the interviewers (and I am coming from a small school that nobody's going to go out of their way to impress...). To a person, they were intelligent, relaxed, professional.... you get the drift. Many of them seemed to follow the "work hard, play hard" mentality - I met one resident that was just off of a half- day at the slopes post Univ. ICU call - but that's reflective of the lifestyle and the people the area attracts in general. (I guess I'm one of them )

As far as the match is concerned, this program has historically matched very well, and will continue to match well. What do UColorado, UWisconsin, MGH, UVA, UTSW have in common? They have all had unfilled positions in recent years in the match. These are all solid programs, but no program is immune to open slots, and having 2 open slots does not a downfall make. I suspect that many applicants had similar misgivings about the new hospital and interview day presentation. Having seen the new buildings, the faculty recruitment, and the $$ being thrown around at the new campus after the match, I think that the medicine program will be having quite the opposite problem in the coming years - its part of the reason that, like mumpu, I chose this program over many of the other upper tier programs.

So, like any of the programs mentioned on this thread, if you're interested in the program, do your own reasearch and make up your own mind.

 

[doc-synergy]

i agree with doing your own research and coming to your own conclusions on a program. one note - i interviewed with someone who was an intern at ohio state, and was looking to transfer because he/she was unhappy. i have also met a former intern of ohio state who was also unhappy. you have probably read the discussion on scutwork.com i don't have any first hand knowledge of the program - but i would do your own careful research on this program, as you should with all programs.

 

[Mumpu]

I interviewed on the very first interview day of the season and the new PD was essentially introduced to us as such.

Having rotated through St Joe's, I have to say the grass always looks greener blah blah. My personal impression of the program was utter lack of autonomy, considerable lack of supervision, lack of procedures, and a truly miserable inpatient indigent care rotation. On the upside, the teaching was quite good and the environment was cush (free lunch every day, nice call rooms).

Your experiences when talking to residents will invariably vary. I'm glad you formed your own opinion about the program.

 

[DRDARIA]

I interviewed on the very first interview day of the season and the new PD was essentially introduced to us as such.

Having rotated through St Joe's, I have to say the grass always looks greener blah blah. My personal impression of the program was utter lack of autonomy, considerable lack of supervision, lack of procedures, and a truly miserable inpatient indigent care rotation. On the upside, the teaching was quite good and the environment was cush (free lunch every day, nice call rooms).

Your experiences when talking to residents will invariably vary. I'm glad you formed your own opinion about the program.

Well, I also interviewed on the first day, and they clearly did NOT introduce the new PD as such! Perhaps being from Colorado's med school you drew inferences from some hint that were not as clear to the rest of us-- coogmed interviewed late (see above), and they hadn't announced it then. Never claimed St. Joes was a better program (interviewed there and ranked them well below Colorado), but just the fact that the several (certainly not all) residents at Colorado seemed to think St. Joe's residents were happier then they were concerned me. It wasn't the determining factor, just a factor to consider. In any event, there were enough red flags to warrant ranking them lower than I otherwise might-- and apparently this was the case with others.

I'm glad you matched where you wanted to go. I matched where I wanted to go. We're both very fortunate.

 

[Mumpu]

Agreed.

 

[medoc]

Hello MSIV and daelroy,

I can understand your misgivings about the rhetoric that surrounds training programs such as UTSW. Truth be told, learning medicine at municipal hospitals that treat indigent populations is rigorous, but matched by an equal measure of gratification and learning opportunities. It is definitely not for everyone, and a culture of "can-do" mentality is associated with everyday survival. Many trainees flourish in this environment, but clearly some do not. UTSW's approach is not superior, but different, and simply a matter of choice. You just have to find the right fit for you.

Best of luck in your choices...