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deleted393595
Why the switch to "Indian"? Isn't that a misnomer?
Proving Native American Status for Application
- Thread starter Yhaatheth
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Why the switch to "Indian"? Isn't that a misnomer?
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Yup! This is what I tried to point out a couple pages ago.
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If you interpret it literally, yes. But it's a political and communal identity as well.
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deleted393595
But they aren't from South Asia....
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Like I said, it's a political identity. Vine Deloria Jr. explains it much better than I can in his book "God is Red."
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deleted393595
I still don't understand how adopting an Anglicized Persian word for themselves makes sense.
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I'm not angry at the wrong people--that would be the good folks here. I am disgusted by the game, which is mostly that of being political. People in all positions go with the flow, politically speaking, and they take the path of least resistance when it comes to the political landscape. If no one admits to anything, it has go to be this, b/c it happens millions of times all over the world on a daily basis. Yes. Gianormous revelation. Life isn't fair and rules are applied capriciously.
I encourage people to study more and perhaps see the longterm ramifications of this maltreatment. It's nice to have a fuzzy understanding of it. It's different to see it en face.
So, it's not about social justice necessarily. Plenty of people that are Af-Am do not get ridiculed and mistreated. This by no means says that there still aren't a whole lot of them that are still ridiculed and mistreated. That doesn't take away from others that suffer and have endured the effects of such. When my mother was a little girl, she was mistreated for being a little ______ girl (assumption was that she was black-mulatto) and in reality, she is part AI.
Personally, it makes no difference to me. I will stand or fall by my application and CV. That's not the point. I shouldn't have to "sit" on being of relatively strong AI descent out of fear that someone is going to point a finger and yell out or think "Gamer!" LOL
I am saying people shouldn't sit on their heritage, whatever it is; b/c people try to game stuff. I find my family's history and those that went through similar things interesting. These are of the most under represented people. You are not going to find a whole heck of a lot of them that are 100% applying to grad school. In fact, many are not even part of the ridiculously limited "federal list of tribes."
The truth is that many people that are entitled to name themselves as what they are, race-wise, will continued to be disenfranchised while others aren't; b/c the forced assimilation and the laws of states made life oppressive in terms of even marriage, such that if they dressed white, and the man of the house answered the census questions, no one was any wiser. In many areas it was downright difficult if not impossible for folks to be part of tribes.
As a hoot, read about the state of Virginia and their idiotic rules for marriage and lumping all "different" people together as "colored" people. So, if you were Af-Am or AI, you couldn't claim your rightful heritage--you were just lumped in "colored."
Even more interesting is the push for sterilization among certain segments of the AIs. Heck if you can't kill em all off, keep them from procreating, and if all else fails, dismiss them as "colored" people that were restricted in marriage and other things. In many cases, whites had their schools, and blacks had their schools, but there were just about no schools for AIs. Some popped up, but they were a joke.
Sad thing is people don't really know this nation's history. It matters, especially when we considered how laws are applied today.
Don't worry, though. AIs don't give a lot of people a hard time on the academic or many other levels. They know they don't matter and that they are bywords as far as a group of people go. Sad.
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The anglicized persian word was given to them. And they learned that name as a self-identifier as they began to learn English. They're not going to stop and say, "oh, wait call us Native America because we're not from Asia." Also, what is an Indian to a Native American? Ain't no asian.
They didn't give it to themselves, you are right. But since they have gotten it, I guess the bigger push is to be inclusive of all those that fit in that category--Pacific Islanders, for example. Inuits, etc. I mean I guess the term Indigenous Americans could be used, or perhaps just stick with good ole Native American. I don't make these rules. Tomorrow, someone may be pushing for something else; but I think they want the term American to be recognizable as well--just as African-Americans do. Although I haven't really met a lot of friends and colleagues of that descent saying that being referred to as black is a problem. Depends on the person I guess, but it's a good number, and the term black is used all the time. Professionally speaking, I stick with Af-Am, b/c it seems the most respectful to me.
And does anyone really ask LGBTQ people to verify that they are such? Come on. Really?
Anyway, my tribe isn't a Federally recognized tribe--even though they can be traced back supposedly 10,000 years this continent; but people are primarily interested in the history and are proud about their heritage. They mostly talk history and like to have fun events. But whatever. On the other side of stuff, I can trace my Germanic ancestry back of 300 years. It's just kind of fun, and this is part of how I know for me.
Finding Your Roots, on PBS, is a pretty cool show. Henry Louis Gates, Jr. seems phenom on this stuff.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/finding-your-roots/
Some say it's just about doing it for S&Gs, but I find it truly interesting and compelling stuff--especially the deeper you dig. But it really does require a HUGE investment of time.
What sucks about doing this is finding out there are those all over family, and they have kept some sketchy records. This is especially true on my husband's side. Don't know why the GF burned important family records; but it kind of annoyed me that he did.
All this doesn't make or break you. It's just interesting. You can lay claim to what is truly yours, but it puts you in a place of deeper empathy and respect for marginalized groups--if you happen to belong to one.
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@Yhaatheth please let us know what you end up doing.
Actually an indicator of DNA correspondence for AIs is indeed Asian. Guess that stuff about the Bering Strait was true--or there were a lot of groups acting as Vikings along both American continents.
It's just interesting stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
Of course one can only give this kind of thing so much time and attention; but it's kind of fun to trace your roots.
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@ElCapone that story reminds me of the disney movie "the color of friendship"!! They were all stoked to host foreign student from South Africa and had their house decked out in tribal patterns only to have a blonde-haired blue-eyed white girl show up lmaooo
Showing you age there.
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Do I understand that you are suggesting we just take someone's word for it, since requiring proof for one flavor of URM claim but not another is discriminatory?
Otherwise, I missed your response to my: "If you were 'king of the world', what laws would you enact to make things better? I'm being 100% serious here --"
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Why not use the Indian Health Services (IHS) definition of a native american for the scholarships?
EXCERPT from "Indian Health Manual" available thru the IHS.
EXCERPT from "Indian Health Manual" available thru the IHS.
- Definition of Indian. For purposes of making appointments to vacancies in all positions in the IHS, "Indian" means persons of Indian descent who are:
- Members of any recognized Indian Tribe now under Federal jurisdiction.
- Descendants of such members who were, on June 1, 1934, residing within the present boundaries of any Indian reservation.
- All others of one half or more Indian blood of Tribes indigenous to the United States (as determined by each individual Tribe).
- Eskimos and other aboriginal people of Alaska.
- Persons of at least one quarter degree Indian ancestry of the Osage Tribe of Indians, whose rolls were closed by an Act of Congress (See 7-3.1F(5).)
- Guidelines for Interpretation of Indian.
- “Members of any recognized Indian Tribe now under Federal jurisdiction...” are those persons officially enrolled in accordance with such Tribes’ constitutional membership criteria.
- Applicants applying as “Descendants of such members who were, on June 1, 1934, residing within the present boundaries of any Indian reservation” shall meet all three of the following criteria:
- Be descended from a member of any recognized Tribe now under Federal jurisdiction; and,
- Have been born on or before June 1, 1934; and
- Have been residing within the present boundaries of any Indian reservation on June 1, 1934.
- The requirement of one half or more Indian blood applies to persons whose ancestry is from a Federally Recognized Tribe(s) and/or whose ancestry is from certain non-Federally Recognized Tribes as determined by the BIA.
- Eskimos and other aboriginal people of Alaska are as defined in the Alaska Native Claims Act of December 18, 1971 (Title 43 U.S.C. Chapter 33, §1601 and Title 43 U.S.C. Chapter 33 §1602(b)): “Native” means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Native as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group. Any decision of the Secretary (Department of the Interior) regarding eligibility for enrollment shall be final.
- The stated criterion will apply to the Osage Tribe of Oklahoma whose rolls were closed by an Act of Congress. Many such persons have received preference based on the one quarter degree standard. In order that they are not now deprived of that eligibility and made to meet the one half degree standard, the quarter degree standard will apply until the Tribe formally organizes and establishes membership standards.
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deleted393595
On the other side of the world, there's a group of people outnumbering them 100 to 1 with that same name. I don't know how they feel about their own name being misappropriated by a much smaller group, but as an East Asian, I would feel odd if another group took our own ethnic name to describe themselves.
But I'm just bringing this up for the sake of academic argument. It's always struck me as odd that NAs choose to call themselves that.
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OMG. Then we're all african.
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I can't tell if you're trolling or not.
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deleted393595
Let me rephrase that: I don't understand why NAs have now chosen to call themselves something that was forced upon them. It's like calling Australian Aborigines "Germans".
^1. The word is disparate. Disparate Treatment: Inconsistent application of rules and policies to one group of people....
^2. I don't know what happened to my reply to KOTW comment; but I think I quoted a Police song: as per Sting, "There is no political solution..."
Yea, it's controversial with some more than others. Just settle on Indigenous Americans already, which is really the same thing as NA. LOL.
What are you going to do?
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I am a registered member of a tribe (5/16ths registered, 3/16 unregistered), and went across the south to Pow-wows with my father throughout my childhood and adolescence. I participated in a few ceremonies in high school, and then my father moved across the country. Since then, and throughout college, I have not been involved in the community, mainly because my "community" is at the north end of the country. I claimed NA in my app, wrote about an experience during a ceremony in my PS, and identify as such, but does my lack of involvement currently look bad?
I've always been considered a part of the "white man's" world by my family, and I'd hate for others to take that view as well.
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You're right. I'm probably overthinking everything anyways. Thanks.
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From my experience? No one knows enough to ask very much about it. No one has asked me ever to verify anything about my heritage. I think that they just like that it gives them a little more diversity on paper, but no one in admin at my school would even begin to be able to discern more than the little I claimed on my app.
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Older post, but I thought I'd try to add to the discussion.
Determining Native status is complicated and political and confusing. As an Indigenous person, it is painful for me when non-Natives feel they have a right to critique Indigenous identity. For example, the process of getting a CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood) from the BIA is, in my opinion, incredibly degrading (we're the only ethnicity in the US that I know of who has to prove our pedigrees, like dogs or horses). At the same time, many tribes have internalized versions of this determination process that some in Indian Country view as genocidal. My point: this is complicated stuff, even outside of the scope of medical school apps.
I much prefer the idea that your own people--your own tribe, village, clan, etc--are who determine if you are "Native." If they would claim you, than that is your community. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to be tribally enrolled. If you were a physician in your traditional territory, would your community members recognize you as one of their own? Things that Natives often look for in order to determine membership to a community: connection to ancestral land, connection to traditional knowledge, humor, language, familial ties, etc. It's difficult, because in the younger generations, so many of us are disconnected from our cultures. This often isn't our fault; it's often a result of generations of colonialism (i.e. boarding schools, Indian Removal Act, etc). However, there are steps to reconnecting. And checking a box on your medical school app is not the first place to do that.
As far as medical school apps go, my rule of thumb is usually that if 1) you are native and 2) your community would claim you/recognize you as native and 3) you're committed to serving your community in one way or another, claim your identity. We are extremely under-represented in medicine and we need more Native doctors out there.
A note on diversity of Indigenous peoples: I've seen some folks in this thread mention outward appearance as a measure of ethnicity. As Indigenous people, we don't all look the same; we don't all look like a racist sports mascot. We don't all come from reservations. We don't all speak our language or attend ceremony. Indigenous experience is individual and complicated.
P.S--with that said, if you have to ask "am I native enough to check the box?" you probably already know the answer to that question. And if you check that box and you're not actually Native, just know that your Indigenous peers will secretly be giving you the side-eye. Word spreads.
Determining Native status is complicated and political and confusing. As an Indigenous person, it is painful for me when non-Natives feel they have a right to critique Indigenous identity. For example, the process of getting a CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood) from the BIA is, in my opinion, incredibly degrading (we're the only ethnicity in the US that I know of who has to prove our pedigrees, like dogs or horses). At the same time, many tribes have internalized versions of this determination process that some in Indian Country view as genocidal. My point: this is complicated stuff, even outside of the scope of medical school apps.
I much prefer the idea that your own people--your own tribe, village, clan, etc--are who determine if you are "Native." If they would claim you, than that is your community. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to be tribally enrolled. If you were a physician in your traditional territory, would your community members recognize you as one of their own? Things that Natives often look for in order to determine membership to a community: connection to ancestral land, connection to traditional knowledge, humor, language, familial ties, etc. It's difficult, because in the younger generations, so many of us are disconnected from our cultures. This often isn't our fault; it's often a result of generations of colonialism (i.e. boarding schools, Indian Removal Act, etc). However, there are steps to reconnecting. And checking a box on your medical school app is not the first place to do that.
As far as medical school apps go, my rule of thumb is usually that if 1) you are native and 2) your community would claim you/recognize you as native and 3) you're committed to serving your community in one way or another, claim your identity. We are extremely under-represented in medicine and we need more Native doctors out there.
A note on diversity of Indigenous peoples: I've seen some folks in this thread mention outward appearance as a measure of ethnicity. As Indigenous people, we don't all look the same; we don't all look like a racist sports mascot. We don't all come from reservations. We don't all speak our language or attend ceremony. Indigenous experience is individual and complicated.
P.S--with that said, if you have to ask "am I native enough to check the box?" you probably already know the answer to that question. And if you check that box and you're not actually Native, just know that your Indigenous peers will secretly be giving you the side-eye. Word spreads.
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Hello all, sorry to revive this thread!
I have recently received my result from 23andme and have discovered that genetically I am 32% Spanish. I have no connection to Spain, don't speak the language fluently, and am very distant from the culture itself. Should I put 'hispanic' under race?
Also, I strongly identify as African (strongly believe in a Pan-Africanism ideal) and am an American citizen. I am not black however. According to 23andme, I am 13% west african (that's more than 1/8th). I grew up in the continent until the end of high school, and applied to college identifying as AA. Should I put 'African American' under race/ethnicity?
According to the US census bureau, I should put white because I am from North Africa. According to 23andme, I am 50% arabic/middle eastern, which is considered white. I truly would feel like I am lying if i self-identified as white only though. If checking multiple race is possible, I would like to check all three: AA, Hispanic, and white. Do you think it is reasonable?
Thank you everyone.
NB: Please no animosity towards my question.
I have recently received my result from 23andme and have discovered that genetically I am 32% Spanish. I have no connection to Spain, don't speak the language fluently, and am very distant from the culture itself. Should I put 'hispanic' under race?
Also, I strongly identify as African (strongly believe in a Pan-Africanism ideal) and am an American citizen. I am not black however. According to 23andme, I am 13% west african (that's more than 1/8th). I grew up in the continent until the end of high school, and applied to college identifying as AA. Should I put 'African American' under race/ethnicity?
According to the US census bureau, I should put white because I am from North Africa. According to 23andme, I am 50% arabic/middle eastern, which is considered white. I truly would feel like I am lying if i self-identified as white only though. If checking multiple race is possible, I would like to check all three: AA, Hispanic, and white. Do you think it is reasonable?
Thank you everyone.
NB: Please no animosity towards my question.
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Who, as a patient, would look at you and say, "this doc is one of us"?
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deleted480308
Basically you have to think about a
world in which everyone is racist to understand URM policy....if you walked into a prison yard for the first time, which race based gang would try to recruit you?
Or if they put you on a med school brochure, people would assume your race is “x”?
Logic is not part of this
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No one unfortunately. In my college, some black american students thought it was immoral of me to call myself african american. However, black african students studying in america were encouraging me to do so. White europeans told me that I would be lying if I said I was only white, and clearly class me in a different group than theirs. I look hispanic, but I would feel dishonest putting hispanic as I really have nothing to do with the culture or the people. My experiences growing up have led me to believe that I am african american. I have felt as an outcast whenever I went to Europe, and really didn't identify with the general population of those countries. I have always identified as AA until I started receiving comments about it this year, as talking about application for med school increased in frequency. I understand that my identification as AA may annoy some people, but from my sociocultural perspective, I have never thought of my race/ethnicity as anything different.
If URM is not a racial classification, why can't I honestly self identify as AA. If asked, I would gladly say that I am not URM, I wouldn't like to steal someone's spot.
If someone says they speak french, are they automatically classified as white? If someone has lived in Germany all their life, are they automatically classified as white? Why does speaking arabic and growing up in North Africa makes Adcoms assume that I am white? Many people in my country identify as white (one of my professor in college in algerian american who self identifies as white), but many others identify as african american (my moroccan american teacher in college identifies as AA). I wouldn't like to be flagged for the wrong reasons. What should I do?
Identify as African American AND White AND Hispanic?
Identify as African American AND White only?
Refuse to answer the race/ethnicity question?
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You’re not Hispanic at all. Don’t put that on your application just because your DNA is most Hispanic. It looks like you’re trying to trick the system to get an advantage of being a URM
If you’re white I wouldn’t put African American either. They will most likely think you’re trying to dupe the system.
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I am the exact same as you. I have spent more time around the culture though. I did mark white on my app though. I can't lie that it has been tempting just because I would be given a huge leg up if I did claim it. However that's not how I want to achieve my goals.
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Alright, I have decided! Looking at me without knowing me, you would swear I am hispanic. If my face was on a poster, people would categorise me as neither black nor white.
I cannot choose between my african identity and my european heritage. As King Hassan II of Morocco said: "The Moroccan is a tree whose roots lie in Africa but whose leaves breathe in Europe." I will not hide parts of my identity because Adcoms will misinterpret that I am trying to game the system. For me, one thing is clear by now, I am none of them individually and all of them at once. I am a bastard race from a country at the crossroads of Europe, the middle east, and Africa. I have all the proof required in the world to have the right to self-identify as all 3, that is: DNA, history, culture, language, passport, family tree, etc.
Thank you everyone for your insight!
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You know what almost every white person is in the United States? A bastard of various cultures. In a bio class in college we examined our own DNA. I was 22% Native American. (My family always said we were part Cherokee.) I did not go trying to claim that on my application.
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The results of your 23andme test aren't really relevant here OP. A family member of mine recently did a similar DNA test which showed my family has distant central asian ancestry.. the fact of the matter is different peoples migrated for centuries into different areas that we now define as "white" or "asian" or whatever and as a result these tests often show a lot more complexity than we would have thought.
The question is what was your cultural identity as a kid growing up. It really is the lowest form of jockeying to put a different ethnicity on med school apps just because you technically proved to be that from one of these genetics tests. If that ethnicities' experience wasn't your own, and you never identified as such before now, then it is unethical to claim it now.
The question is what was your cultural identity as a kid growing up. It really is the lowest form of jockeying to put a different ethnicity on med school apps just because you technically proved to be that from one of these genetics tests. If that ethnicities' experience wasn't your own, and you never identified as such before now, then it is unethical to claim it now.
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It sounds like you may have grown up with some adversity at home. I think stating that and how it has influenced your growth and maturity is more compelling than being part of an ethnic group.
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deleted480308
Unethical to tell the adcoms that openly racially discriminate a fact in a manner different than they want?
I don’t advocate lying. And I think adcoms will look skin deep on this so I don’t advocate putting anything other than your appearance....
But there is no moral high ground for the advocates of this system to call others “unethical” for not playing along. Don’t hate the player, hate the racial discrimination game
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It's not unethical to claim to be what you are. You are what you are.
However, it's unethical to say you experienced something you didn't.
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You're not Hispanic.
The Census Bureau defines you as Caucasian.
Yes, your ancestry is from Africa, but you are not African American in the way that URM admissions status classifies people.
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A few docs I've worked with have had a patient decline their service because they were a certain race or gender. A patient once refused to let me work with them because I was "too light-skinned." It's not common, but it can happen.
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For what it's worth, I think you're making exactly the right choice. If "white America/northern Europe" doesn't generally consider you white and you honestly don't consider yourself white, then I don't think it's at all dishonest to not categorize yourself as such. You honestly consider yourself African, you grew up in Africa and your African peers accept you as such which, in addition to your DNA gives you a valid claim -- though not exclusively. And since you are genetically more Spanish and look more Hispanic than anything else, I think that makes sense also.
Bottom line, I think your three-part answer is the most truthful to yourself and your culture and is something you could readily explain in such a way that anyone could understand.
You did not like the answer from your original thread so kept looking? You sound very young and don't seem to understand why the information is requested in these boxes and what they aim to provide. If you don't feel they adequately represent you then you could mark "Other" as many people do, including myself, and specify further. You are not what is considered African American or Hispanic American in America. African American is a designation for the descendants of Black American slaves. You yourself said you are not Black.
Very bizarre that you would want to force this so much to your own embarrassment instead of writing "Moroccan" on a form.
I am registered 1/16 with the Mvskoke/Creek tribe and this is a question I can answer! If you want to get technical, even Natives are raised in White culture these days (if they admit or not). I’ve never met a Native who was a hunter/gather or even a Native style farmer. The blood ties are all that’s left and if you’ve got it use it, the rest of us do, that’s why it’s there and most all benefits are generated entirely by the tribe. Lineage must be proven through legal documentation, DNA testing is not allowed. If you need to prove it you just get the tribal application and acquire the required documents (everyone’s birth certificate and marriage certificates for female lineage) and in a month or two you’re registered.
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What if people don’t necessarily know what you are? I have a lot of multiracial heritage (AA, NA, and white) and people tend to see me differently (although IMO I look as though I’m Hispanic). Similar to boobanation, I don’t feel like I belong to any “one” ethnicity’s culture, but rather somewhere in the middle.
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Go look up "cultural competency", and stop thinking about what you or anybody else looks like.
In the end, it's not what you want, it's what the medical schools want.
Her tribal registration will list her specific blood quantum (not “half-breed”) but if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about to the tribal registration office, say you’re 1/4. Sounds silly but if you say 25% they will instantly connect you with the DNA testing fanatics and be sure you have to jump as much red tape as they can find. Most tribes don’t agree with DNA testing because proving lineage back to 120 year old documents is far more difficult and they don’t ever want it used in proving Native lineage.
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Forgive me if I’m wrong, but cultural competence is precisely why I asked my question (unless I’m misunderstanding what LizzyM meant). Without a doubt, being able to communicate with all kinds of people is important for someone who wants to be a doctor. In reference to LizzyM’s post, as a minority I’m well aware that minorities tend to be receptive to other minorities, especially if they’re the same ethnicity. Since the comment was made, it made me wonder how that applies when no one ethnicity is going to say, “She’s one of us.”
For the record, I’m not worried about what I (or anyone else) look(s) like; rather, as others have mentioned, I don’t want to come across as if I’m claiming something that I’m not (whether that be to an interviewer, fellow students, or even a patient). In addition, whether I like it or not, that will be judged based on how others physically perceive me to be (hence why it’s a thought that comes up for some of us when working on medical school applications).
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You get it.
Keep in mind that it's always important to walk the walk, and not merely talk the talk.
