PsyD or LPC?

[splittedmindpsychologist]

I am about to start a PsyD program in the Fall. After reading about the market potential for PsyDs, I realize that I might just need to pursue a LPC. So, I am having second thoughts. Am I right? I am a 48 year old woman with two masters. I don't have any loans except for my mortgage. The cost of the PsyD program is fairly high, as it not a fully funded program, and I will end up with a lot of debt after graduation, in 5 years. Would you help my reasoning? Thank you for your time.

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[WisNeuro]

Depends on where the PsyD is from, really. I wouldn't be thrilled about accruing a lot of debt going into your mid 50's, though. Unless you already have stellar retirement savings, trying to pay off those loans AND save for retirement means you will have a hard time retiring before your mid-70's at the earliest.

 

[splittedmindpsychologist]

Depends on where the PsyD is from, really. I wouldn't be thrilled about accruing a lot of debt going into your mid 50's, though. Unless you already have stellar retirement savings, trying to pay off those loans AND save for retirement means you will have a hard time retiring before your mid-70's at the earliest.

I wish I had stellar retirement savings but I don't. I have two houses, one is about to be paid off and the other I just bought it because I relocated to the city where I am to start (or not) my program. I will be (or will not be) a student with Argosy University.
I am thinking that I could just get a position, pay for supervision to accrue hours, and later apply for a LPC. But...am I really too old to get a doctorate degree?

 

[WisNeuro]

Argosy is not highly regarded, and it will be more difficult to obtain an accredited internship, which you need for a good number of jobs and will lengthen your training years (finding an internship, passing the EPPP, etc). As for age, that is up to the individual. There are plenty of people entering psychology at an older age after another career. But, my advice to people is to always consider the financials. That debt load will weigh you down. If it makes you incredibly happy and fulfilled, go for it. Just know that it will be hard to have a normal retirement and you may be working longer than you planned.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I will be (or will not be) a student with Argosy University.

Here is a run down of costs for Argosy. The numbers were taken from Argosy SD, but I'm guessing tuition cost is going to be around the same across their "campuses"/buildings.

Some quick math, all of the data pulled right from their outcomes documentation. I'll be generous and say the student is able to get out in 4+1, even though their mean completion time is 5.8yrs:

Last posted tuition: $1061 per credit hour @ 120 credits to graduate: $127,320
Program Fees: $370 per yr @ 4yrs: $1,480
Est books/material: $2200 per yr @ 4yrs: $8,800

Total: $137,600

…before ANY rent, living expenses, etc. Tuition increases were not factored in, nor was interest on the loans, or even hidden/other fees that can pop up during training. What fees you ask…well…$6,365 paid to the school for your intern year. If you do a half-time internship that cost jumps to $10,722. Then there is the minimum 40hr of personal therapy they require, which they estimate will cost $2,000-$3,000. The list goes on…

 

[splittedmindpsychologist]

Argosy is not highly regarded, and it will be more difficult to obtain an accredited internship, which you need for a good number of jobs and will lengthen your training years (finding an internship, passing the EPPP, etc). As for age, that is up to the individual. There are plenty of people entering psychology at an older age after another career. But, my advice to people is to always consider the financials. That debt load will weigh you down. If it makes you incredibly happy and fulfilled, go for it. Just know that it will be hard to have a normal retirement and you may be working longer than you planned.

I am a psychologist in another country already; after living in America for the past 15 years, I finally decided to reclaim my career. So, I went to a counseling master program to enable myself to practice as a therapist. How about all your psychology credits? You may ask. Well, as my graduation as a psychologist took place in 1994, my credits are not valid. I will have to start again, from scratch. I know I can do it, but my rational thinking process tells me it could be too late and, as you put it, the debt loan might weigh me down in a long run. Thank you for your advice.

 

[splittedmindpsychologist]

Here is a run down of costs for Argosy. The numbers were taken from Argosy SD, but I'm guessing tuition cost is going to be around the same across their "campuses"/buildings.

Exactly! I do not fear the work, I fear the cost. So, if I had the money right away, I would do it. As I don't have the money, would I still do it?

 

[Ollie123]

I don't think you are too old to get a doctorate. I do think its a very poor financial decision to attend a school with a terrible reputation that will hurt your chances at most of the better-paying jobs and costs a fortune when the norm in the field is to go to school for free (and get paid to attend). Keep in mind, I'd be saying the same if you were 21.

Its not something I would take on, but whether or not the cost-benefit is worthwhile is your decision to make. If you do decide its worth it, I'd absolutely make sure you have done the math and have a game plan to make it work (i.e. can pay off the 200k on an "average" psychologist salary, cover your expenses AND save for retirement). This is not the kind of debt to go into on a whim.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Exactly! I do not fear the work, I fear the cost. So, if I had the money right away, I would do it. As I don't have the money, would I still do it?

1. Why psychologist instead of a counselor?
2. What do you want to do as a psychologist that you cannot do as a counselor?
3. Relocation is typically required, at least for internship, though typically for a program too. Fellowship/Post-Doc can usually be more flexible. Are you willing to relocate at least once if not two or three times?
4. Cost is a HUGE issue. Whether you are 21, 51, or 71…I wouldn't recommend attending any program that puts you into serious debt.
5. Argosy has a poor reputation AND will cost an arm and a leg. You'd be MUCH better off sticking to counselor.

 

[PsyDr]

T4C is also not accounting for the interest rate. At essentially 7%, it nearly doubles every 7 years.

By the time you graduated, you would essentially owe a monthly payment of $1570.00, assuming you are single, earn 80k, and live in Alabama (I just selected the first state). This would take approximately 10 years to pay off. Assuming you have 50k in retirement savings now, with no contributions from 48-68, you would "retire" with 279k to withdraw from your IRA FOR THE REMAINDER OF YOUR LIFE. Using life expectancy data, you would have 38k in today's dollars per year until you died at 76, which is equivalent to 21k in your retirement year's dollars. Keeping in mind that Forbes indicates that the mean medical expenses in retirement is 225k.

Also assume you don't become disabled through: dementia, heart attack, orthopedic problems, pulmonary illnesses, stroke, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

Man, we are depressing. But seriously, financial planning is a very important thing that is far too often not considered.

 

[PsyDr]

Eh, anyone can choose whatever they want. Some people want to live in the now and suffer the consequences later in life. Some want to delay gratification and hope they live to see it. There's nothing inherently wrong in either choice, so long as one accepts the logical consequences of one's actions. The problem is when cognitive dissonance kicks in and people try to talk about how unfair the consequences are.

You see this delay of gratification stuff play out in people's health, older prisoners, all sort of crap in marriages, etc all the time.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

T4C is also not accounting for the interest rate. At essentially 7%, it nearly doubles every 7 years.

In my Argosy SD post I included all of that info, but for this one I figured ~$140k (in tuition only!) would be sufficient to point out the ridiculous cost of attending an Argosy "campus".

 

[splittedmindpsychologist]

I guess no further reasoning is required. With all things considered, I am better off without a doctorate. It looks like I can be a master level clinician and be very happy/debt free in the future. Thank you all for your great inputs. Who knows? Maybe my doctorate could turn into my retirement project, taken that I get accepted and funded for it. #seniordoctoratestudents?