Puny High School Student Seeking Advice About the Path to a MD/PhD program

[woohyukee11]

I've been looking into medical graduate schools while I was looking up on undergrad colleges and I happened to stumble on the MSTP or MD/PhD program webpages on some of the medical schools. After reading about these programs it seems very exciting for me! Clinical training plus research!

So I was just wondering if anyone could share some advice about getting into an MSTP program as an undergrad, and also about any experiences or what life is like while in the MSTP program by current students or graduates with the dual degree..

Right now I guess my main question is does the choice of the undergrad I go to really matter in the long run. I've read up somewhere that normally the prestigious ones send the most MSTP guys. Maybe even suggetions or comments on undergrad schools with the best research opportunities would be appreciated!

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[b&ierstiefel]

Your undergrad institution MATTERS...at some places at least. Your application gets an institutional reputation score. A 4.0 at UNLV is different from a 4.0 at Harvard. If you have the money, go to the best college you can. IF you're looking for a university where undergrads are encouraged to do research, consider Hopkins.

I've been looking into medical graduate schools while I was looking up on undergrad colleges and I happened to stumble on the MSTP or MD/PhD program webpages on some of the medical schools. After reading about these programs it seems very exciting for me! Clinical training plus research!

So I was just wondering if anyone could share some advice about getting into an MSTP program as an undergrad, and also about any experiences or what life is like while in the MSTP program by current students or graduates with the dual degree..

Right now I guess my main question is does the choice of the undergrad I go to really matter in the long run. I've read up somewhere that normally the prestigious ones send the most MSTP guys. Maybe even suggetions or comments on undergrad schools with the best research opportunities would be appreciated!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Here's something helpful:

http://www.aamc.org/research/dbr/mdphd/appsurvey.pdf

National application survey, involving all MSTPs and some non-MSTP MD/PhD programs

Matriculation rates by school (school, number of applicants, matriculation rate)

Cornell University, 40, 10, 25%
UC Berkeley, 39, 10, 26%
UCLA, 36, 5, 14%
Harvard University, 34, 17, 50%
Duke University, 32, 16, 50%
Johns Hopkins University, 29, 13, 45%
Yale University, 29, 15, 52%
Washington University, 27, 13, 48%
University of Washington, 27, 8, 30%
Brigham Young University, 24, 5, 21%
University of Wisconsin, 23, 4, 17%
Mass. Institute of Technology, 21, 9, 43%
Rutgers University, 20, 2, 10%
Princeton University, 19, 11, 58%
Stanford University, 19, 8, 42%
Boston University, 18, 3, 17%
University of Pennsylvania, 18, 7, 39%
University of Virginia, 18, 8, 44%
SUNY Stony Brook, 17, 0, 0%
Columbia University, 17, 8, 47%

Keep in mind that in 2003, the national acceptance rate for schools (i.e. all applicants versus actual matriculated students) reporting to this survey was about 25%.

 

[Oak]

Along with going to a school with strong research opportunities for undergrads, I'd suggest actually working in a lab as early as possible. I started the first semester of my freshman year as a work-study job (mostly cleaning glassware and staining slides). Not only would this put you on the road to becomming a strong applicant, but, just as importantly, it'll help you figure out if MSTP is really for you.

 

[honeygrits]

I would say that you should just be sure to attend a school that promotes undergrad research. Not just washing dishes, but actually having an active project. Look into unique scholarship programs that stress research. If you are an URM, MARC U STAR and the Meyerhoff program are great.

But be wary of high profile schools. I have heard of cut-throat mentalities amongst undergrads.

 

[marctam86]

Here's something helpful:

http://www.aamc.org/research/dbr/mdphd/appsurvey.pdf

National application survey, involving all MSTPs and some non-MSTP MD/PhD programs

Matriculation rates by school (school, number of applicants, matriculation rate)

Cornell University, 40, 10, 25%
UC Berkeley, 39, 10, 26%
UCLA, 36, 5, 14%
Harvard University, 34, 17, 50%
Duke University, 32, 16, 50%
Johns Hopkins University, 29, 13, 45%
Yale University, 29, 15, 52%
Washington University, 27, 13, 48%
University of Washington, 27, 8, 30%
Brigham Young University, 24, 5, 21%
University of Wisconsin, 23, 4, 17%
Mass. Institute of Technology, 21, 9, 43%
Rutgers University, 20, 2, 10%
Princeton University, 19, 11, 58%
Stanford University, 19, 8, 42%
Boston University, 18, 3, 17%
University of Pennsylvania, 18, 7, 39%
University of Virginia, 18, 8, 44%
SUNY Stony Brook, 17, 0, 0%
Columbia University, 17, 8, 47%

Keep in mind that in 2003, the national acceptance rate for schools (i.e. all applicants versus actual matriculated students) reporting to this survey was about 25%.

quick question, im college freshman, do you think it would be worthwhile to transfer to a better school? does it really play that big a role to the point that transfering would be a viable option?

 

[jjmack]

I'd say only if you can't find research oppertunities near by or during the summer. Also if you really don't like the school then it may make sense. good luck.

quick question, im college freshman, do you think it would be worthwhile to transfer to a better school? does it really play that big a role to the point that transfering would be a viable option?

 

[gwang]

Undergrad institution certainly matters, but for those who cannot afford it or for other reasons choose to go to a lowly state institution, please keep in mind that all is not lost. You can still make it, as long as you work hard and start research early. On interview trips, it's pretty cool to be the only non-ivy league candidate, representin' a public school (Oregon pryde!!!). Some interviewers may even be impressed by the story of the underdog. Good luck!

 

[tr]

quick question, im college freshman, do you think it would be worthwhile to transfer to a better school? does it really play that big a role to the point that transfering would be a viable option?

That's silly; don't transfer just for a brand name. There are only a few schools where the name helps you anyway; if you're looking to jump from USN&WR #315 to #207, it's not going to help you much.

Furthermore, the stats posted by JPaikman are misleading in that they imply that the name of your undergrad school is a major factor in your applications. (It is a factor, but 'major' is debatable.) The main confounding factor here is that people who get into Princeton as HS seniors are more academically able *on average* than those who get into UWisc. So just because Princeton has a 58% accept rate to MSTPs while UWisc only has a 17% doesn't mean that you, with your specific individual talents and abilities, will have a >3x greater chance of getting in if you go to Princeton vs. UWisc.

The only study I ever saw that attempted to control for this enormous source of bias used earnings at 10 years post graduation as a readout. They looked at two populations of students: those who had graduated from a handful of 'name brand' schools, and another set who had gained acceptance to one of these schools but chose to attend less renowned (but cheaper) institutions. The upshot was that their earnings were pretty much identical ten years out. So this suggests that the major factor is the student, not the school, and makes a strong case for you not assuming a $100K albatross of debt just so you can stamp a Princeton logo on your running shorts.

If you're picking a school and you already know you want MSTP down the road (remember that may change), then of course it makes sense to find someplace where research experience will be easy to obtain. E.g., prefer a large research institution like UMich to a small, arty college like Oberlin. But if you're already at school X and you're happy there, you can definitely find research opportunities, either working with what is available at your school, looking at nearby institutions, and/or doing summer research at other places.

 

[tr]

Undergrad institution certainly matters, but for those who cannot afford it or for other reasons choose to go to a lowly state institution, please keep in mind that all is not lost. You can still make it, as long as you work hard and start research early. On interview trips, it's pretty cool to be the only non-ivy league candidate, representin' a public school (Oregon pryde!!!). Some interviewers may even be impressed by the story of the underdog. Good luck!

Underdog, whatever. In my entering class at a 'name-brand' MSTP the majority of students had not attended a name-brand (e.g. Ivy, Stanford, or MIT) institution for undergrad. About 40% were name-brand, the other 60% were from a mix of public schools and small liberal-arts colleges.

 

[reddirtgirl]

I would say that you should just be sure to attend a school that promotes undergrad research. Not just washing dishes, but actually having an active project. Look into unique scholarship programs that stress research. If you are an URM, MARC U STAR and the Meyerhoff program are great.

But be wary of high profile schools. I have heard of cut-throat mentalities amongst undergrads.

It's often easier to get a student lab jobs/experience at schools that aren't super high profile. From what I've read, it amazes me that people can get so cut-throat about student worker lab jobs.

Where ever you end up going, you can always take the initiative, go door to door even, and ask if they need/want a student worker. It'd be nice to get a job in a lab that likes having UG workers & incorporates them in lab mtgs, etc.

The lab job you start with might not be medically related in an obvious way. My first student lab job was in plants. The stuff I learned there allowed me to get my next "real" job. DNA, RNA, proteins are the same.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

If you're not currently at a major research university, I would suggest:

- Spending 1-2 years post graduation doing research OR
- Participate in prestigeous summer programs i.e. HHMI, CSHL (apply early!)

The advantage to a major research university is just the level of support and the breadth of options when it comes to undergraduate research opportunities. Some schools have a reputation of attracting and training undergraduates for research (it's how I picked my school). I'd be interested in seeing the statistic: number of postgraduate years until matriculation vis-a-vis undergraduate institution type.

The argument isn't that name *alone* makes one's application better. Leveraging all of the resources that a "name" school is the advantage. I agree that your undergrads' name makes little to no difference in the final outcome in pay, but I'd make a serious bet that where you end up for faculty has an effect on your where your papers get accepted. Pay scale shouldn't be the metric - citations/impact factor is at least better, where factors such as "name" become more apparent.

Good luck.

 

[tr]

The argument isn't that name *alone* makes one's application better. Leveraging all of the resources that a "name" school provides well. I agree that your undergrads' name makes little to no difference in the final outcome in pay, but I'd make a serious bet that where you end up for faculty has an effect on your where your papers get accepted. Pay scale shouldn't be the metric - citations/impact factor is at least better, where factors such as "name" become more apparent.

I quoted the study using pay scale because, as I said, I am aware of no other studies that even attempted to control for intrinsic student ability. This study was not specific to science or research careers; it used salary as a crude but easily quantifiable measure of social achievement.

I agree that name-brand schools do a better job of coaching their students through the intangibles, and it's one of many reasons why it's good to attend one of these schools. The question is not, "is it good?" but "is it necessary?" or "is it worth the money?"

 

[uproarhz]

I've read up somewhere that normally the prestigious ones send the most MSTP guys. Maybe even suggetions or comments on undergrad schools with the best research opportunities would be appreciated!

I totally agree with people who said that the name of your undergrad doesn't matter as much. Plus, sure it may be easier to ride on the prestige of a name, but if you want to live in the real world you better start making things happen for yourself! Having a no-name college on your resume will definitely not prevent you from getting in. During my interviews I have met many MSTP students that came from small or no name colleges, I am serious, places that I didn't even know exist! And they have obviously been successful.
If research availability is a concern, you can always apply to summer internships or take a year off after graduation (many people nowadays do this) and work in a big name lab to get letters from someone whose name may be recognized. That will even show your initiative, that you didn't do it just because everyone else in your school also did, but that you actually gave it an extra effort. Of course, if you reasonably have the means to go to a big-name university and you think you will thrive in that environment go for it, but don't feel obliged to go because of wanting to pursue the MD/PhD.

 

[paramus]

Underdog, whatever. In my entering class at a 'name-brand' MSTP the majority of students had not attended a name-brand (e.g. Ivy, Stanford, or MIT) institution for undergrad. About 40% were name-brand, the other 60% were from a mix of public schools and small liberal-arts colleges.

I think it's important to keep in mind that not all state schools and small liberal arts colleges are created equal. According to one of my MD interviewers at a name school, that particular school likes Ivy league schools, UC schools and the seven sister schools. I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about with that "seven sisters" business until I went home and googled it, and I suspect that most people don't realize that places like Missouri-Rolla and Truman State are very good state schools.

A name will only help you, but the really important point is to find a school that has some respect in academic circles. And speaking from personal experience, do NOT be fooled by smiling admissions officials with large checks in their hands. The fact that you or they might think State U is "respectable" does not mean that it is outside of a 200-mile radius, and while you might be able to rise above this, particularly if you start early, I wouldn't gamble if you have the choice. For better or worse, you will be judged in part based on the people you went to school with.

Of course, you also need to find a school where you will have plenty of options - and I don't just mean research - in which case size matters. If you can go from high school to MSTP without changing your mind or at the very least doubting yourself a few times along the way, you need to broaden your horizons.

 

[Maebea]

In the period 1999-2003, 1,890 individuals enrolled in MD-PhD programs nationwide. Those individuals attended 317 different undergraduate institutions. The top 10 undergrad institutions were (in alpha order):

California-Berkeley, U. of
California-Los Angeles, U. of
Cornell U.
Duke U.
Harvard U.
Johns Hopkins U.
Princeton U.
Stanford U.
Washington U. in St. Louis
Yale U.

Probably no surprises on that list. The other 307 other schools were across the board, from Adams State College to Columbia University to Point Loma Nazarene College to the University of Michigan. The point is, there is no one college or 10 or 20 or 50 colleges that you MUST attend if you are to have any hope of getting into a MD-PhD program. It might be harder to set up research experiences if you choose to attend Adams State College instead of Yale, but if you are persistent you can certainly do it. Admissions committees are likely to be more familiar with Stanford than they are with Hanover College, but if you do well at Hanover and have strong research experience, you will have a good shot at getting into a MD-PhD program.
That you are aware of the MD-PhD pathway at an early stage is good; you can tailor your coursework and get involved in research no matter where you go. If you do choose for your undergrad a smaller college with limited research opportunities, do summer research at the NIH or at an institution that has a MD-PhD program.
Good luck!

 

[woohyukee11]

Hehe, thanks for all your opinions and advice! I find it really helpful!

 

[curiousstudent]

Your undergrad institution MATTERS...at some places at least. Your application gets an institutional reputation score. A 4.0 at UNLV is different from a 4.0 at Harvard.

How would the reputation of more undergrad-focused schools like Brown compare to that research powerhouses when applying for an MD/PhD?

 

[beary]

I totally agree with people who said that the name of your undergrad doesn't matter as much. Plus, sure it may be easier to ride on the prestige of a name, but if you want to live in the real world you better start making things happen for yourself! Having a no-name college on your resume will definitely not prevent you from getting in. During my interviews I have met many MSTP students that came from small or no name colleges, I am serious, places that I didn't even know exist!

I agree. I went to a no-name, non-competitive, small midwestern liberal arts college. I did seek out research opportunities, both there and at big institutions - I did an HHMI summer fellowship at Harvard the summer before my senior year. I never felt that being from a "lesser" school hurt me at all - either in applications, or in preparation for medical or graduate school. I would just go wherever you are happy and seek out research opportunities.

 

[Thundrstorm]

I agree. I went to a no-name, non-competitive, small midwestern liberal arts college. I did seek out research opportunities, both there and at big institutions - I did an HHMI summer fellowship at Harvard the summer before my senior year. I never felt that being from a "lesser" school hurt me at all - either in applications, or in preparation for medical or graduate school. I would just go wherever you are happy and seek out research opportunities.

This sounds like good advice to me (although, we'll see ... I'm just now applying). I go to a no-name non-competitive small New England liberal arts college. I've done research at my school for 2.5 years, and I did a summer research program at Harvard last summer. I've got plenty of experience, with only 2 months of it from a "big name" place, and I don't think that it's WHERE you are but WHAT you do. Go to a college in a location you'll enjoy, at a price you can afford, with a program you'll like, and then seek out opportunities wherever that is.

 

[jjmack]

I agree with all of this, but just be aware that going to a "big name" research heavy school will make it easier to get involved in research.

This sounds like good advice to me (although, we'll see ... I'm just now applying). I go to a no-name non-competitive small New England liberal arts college. I've done research at my school for 2.5 years, and I did a summer research program at Harvard last summer. I've got plenty of experience, with only 2 months of it from a "big name" place, and I don't think that it's WHERE you are but WHAT you do. Go to a college in a location you'll enjoy, at a price you can afford, with a program you'll like, and then seek out opportunities wherever that is.

 

[BerlinNeuro]

I'm not an MSTP applicant, only a future MD, but I have to contest the idea that going to a small private college won't provide you with as many research opportunities. I went to Dickinson College for undergrad, which is a small liberal arts college in PA, and they have a fantastic workshop science program for bio and physical sciences. All the science students have to do research to graduate, and we get the professors and labs all to ourselves. No competing with grad students, post-docs, etc.. for the lab equipment, regular personal advising from your supervisor (i.e. very personal LOR), and you won't be listed as the 9th author on a publication. I have taken classes at other big universities as an undergrad and I'm just finishing my MS now, and I REALLY appreciate the opportunities I had at my school when I see other undergrads getting thrown the bones in the lab. Plus, many times professors recruit their students for summer research at professional off-campus labs. Obviously, going to a big research school also has its advantages, including more advanced technologies, but that doesn't always mean you get to use them anyway. At my school the profs were great with grants anyway, and we always had a lot of cool expensive equipment that could compete with the bigger unis. I just suggest you check out the private college scene, because there are some big winners out there when it comes to undergrad science and research.

Plus, my take on college education is that you get what you pay for. That doesn't mean putting yourself at hardship or passing up a fantastic scholarship at your in-state school, but if you can swing or borrow the money to go to a better school, I say go for it.

 

[ClarinetGeek]

I think BerlinNeuro brings up a lot of good points, and I am not here to dispute them by any means. However, I would like to point out an advantage to a large university. So I will be the large, in-state university cheerleader.

For the past 3 years, I have worked in a large lab with about 12+ post docs, 6+ grad students, and 10+ ugrads at a time. Granted with only one PI, there isn't a lot of one-on-one with the prof. However, it is the one-on-one with my post-doc that has helped me immensely! I have learned so much from post-doc both in terms of technique but the science behind it all. I cannot imagine not having that. Plus having contact with several other post docs as well as grad student, I have mutiple sources to disccuss thing. Also as a undergrad, I like having the ability to see the whole process from grad student to post-doc to actual job progress; therefore, I know what I am getting myself into.

Some draws backs do exist. At a large university like UW, there are many ugrad opportunities available but about 10 students for each spot. So it can get a bit competitive. Yet I have never met anybody who in time couldn't get into a lab. The range of opportunities is incredible as well. In a large lab setting like mine, publishing as an ugrad is pretty much unheard of and has almost been scoffed at. But that could be just my lab and PI. Although I do have have friends in small labs that do would one-on-one with their PIs and have multiple publications. One does have the opportunity to be selective about lab environment you want to work in.

This is just my perspective as undergrad. Take for what is worth.