Quacks

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I think the issue I have here is that, no matter what anyone says on here, I can't escape my own real life experience. I mean, I've seen a chiropractors treating a patient with chronic sinusitis with manipulation. I've heard a chiropractor claim he got one of his infertile patients pregnant by relieving pelvic sublexations. It's hard for myself (and others like myself) take any field seriously when these people (even if they are a fringe element) are let to practice without any consequences.

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From the ACA website (amerchiro.org):

So they are saying that chiropractors do 4800 hours and medical students only do 4600? Sounds a bit fishy...

Perhaps I am missing something but just in 3rd year if you average 60 hours a week (a low estimate) you get 3120 hours just for 3rd year.

Add the first 2 years- lets assume around 25 hours/week--> 1000 hours/ year.

Then you need to add 4th year. By my estimate we are well over 6000 hours. But that wouldnt look so nice on the chiropractic website would it?


The current model of spinal manipulation involves such things as tissue injury, subsequent release of noxious chemicals (histamine, prostaglandins, bradykinin, etc) which sensitize nociceptors, associated inflammation and pain, resultant muscle spasm and biomechanical alterations (joint hypomobility, for example). As the regional biomechanics become altered, tissue mechanoreceptor firing is reduced, which further increases pain (remember that mechanorector afferentation travels via relatively large myelinated fibers, while nociceptive signals travel via smaller diameter fibers, which has ramifications at the dorsal horn level). Reduced afferentation also has central effects as well.

In a nutshell (and this is obviously the simplified version), spinal manipulation has both mechanical effects (physically moving joints and vertebrae) and neurophysiologic effects (improving mechanoreceptive afferetation and reducing nociceptor firing, etc). The most obvious effects are pain reduction and improved mobility. But there are likely more complex central effects as well (reducing central sensitization, stimulating descending inhibitory pathways, etc). We also know that spinal manipulation has effects on the sympathetic nervous system (there are references...I'll track them down if time permits), but the exact meaning of this is unclear at this point.

This reference, while a little heavy on the neuro, describes some of these thoughts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Of course the article basically says that none of it is substantiated by any proof and that it just a model without proof. Great article.

One of the major criticism of CAM is that they have no proof that their modalities work for what they claim them to. When they do put out articles their methods are so poorly designed that the validity of the article is called into question. Quality CAM articles are near impossible to find.
 
I think the issue I have here is that, no matter what anyone says on here, I can't escape my own real life experience. I mean, I've seen a chiropractors treating a patient with chronic sinusitis with manipulation. I've heard a chiropractor claim he got one of his infertile patients pregnant by relieving pelvic sublexations. It's hard for myself (and others like myself) take any field seriously when these people (even if they are a fringe element) are let to practice without any consequences.

Like it or not, chiro here to stay. I can only advise you to consider acquainting yourself with a reasonable chiro in your community and refer him/her patients that haven't done well with other treatments and that you have pre-screened, if that makes you feel better.
 
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So they are saying that chiropractors do 4800 hours and medical students only do 4600? Sounds a bit fishy...

Perhaps I am missing something but just in 3rd year if you average 60 hours a week (a low estimate) you get 3120 hours just for 3rd year.

Add the first 2 years- lets assume around 25 hours/week--> 1000 hours/ year.

Then you need to add 4th year. By my estimate we are well over 6000 hours. But that wouldnt look so nice on the chiropractic website would it?

I'm not going to quibble over the hours thing. The key is that chiropractic education has come a long way and continues to improve every year.

Of course the article basically says that none of it is substantiated by any proof and that it just a model without proof. Great article.

One of the major criticism of CAM is that they have no proof that their modalities work for what they claim them to. When they do put out articles their methods are so poorly designed that the validity of the article is called into question. Quality CAM articles are near impossible to find.

Many of the more complex issues surrounding the effects of spinal manipulation are indeed a model. That's where things begin. Then, as more is studied and becomes known, that information is added to the mix and the model evolves. Hey, let's not forget: the details of how aspirin worked were unknown for years, but I don't think you complained about that, did you? Another recent example would be nitric oxide. And the same can be said for many many things in medicine. Are you suggesting that we know all there is to know about everything in medicine??? C'mon.

The article I quickly found isn't even a study, per se. It's simply a collection of some of the research and proposed mechanisms of spinal manipulation actions. Criticizing the design of that article is real helpful...nice work. And chiropractic is light years ahead of other CAM modalities (one could argue that chiro isn't even CAM at all anymore) in terms of published studies, MANY of which are very well designed. At least with regard to spinal manipulation, your claim that "quality articles are near impossible to find" is unfounded. Your thorough review of the literature, that I know you so diligently performed;), must not have been very thorough after all.
 
I'm not going to quibble over the hours thing. The key is that chiropractic education has come a long way and continues to improve every year.
I posted that from the ACA website, because I think they have a lot of nerve implying that chiropractors have more clinical training than physicians, even though they fail to mention the additional 3-7 years of 80 hour weeks that physicians must go through before they can practice on their own. The average physician probably has at least 3-4x more clinical training before independent practice than the average chiropractor. Furthermore, they claim that chiropractors are more highly trained in anatomy, physiology, and rehabilitation. Rehabilitation (or the chiropractic version of it) maybe, but there is no way that chiros have more anatomy and physiology training than physicians. The focus is on ONE SYSTEM of the body. Doctors have to know the anatomy, physiology, histology AND pathology of EVERY system of the body.

Many of the more complex issues surrounding the effects of spinal manipulation are indeed a model. That's where things begin. Then, as more is studied and becomes known, that information is added to the mix and the model evolves. Hey, let's not forget: the details of how aspirin worked were unknown for years, but I don't think you complained about that, did you? Another recent example would be nitric oxide. And the same can be said for many many things in medicine. Are you suggesting that we know all there is to know about everything in medicine??? C'mon.

The article I quickly found isn't even a study, per se. It's simply a collection of some of the research and proposed mechanisms of spinal manipulation actions. Criticizing the design of that article is real helpful...nice work. And chiropractic is light years ahead of other CAM modalities (one could argue that chiro isn't even CAM at all anymore) in terms of published studies, MANY of which are very well designed. At least with regard to spinal manipulation, your claim that "quality articles are near impossible to find" is unfounded. Your thorough review of the literature, that I know you so diligently performed;), must not have been very thorough after all.

The problem is that you have claimed that chiropractic has come a long way from the subluxation theory, and that now it is founded on legitimate science. The model you have posted might as well be subluxation theory. It puts forward lots of theories, but little evidence. Whether we call it subluxation or mechanoreceptor stimulation doesn't matter. The fact is, you cannot explain how chiropractic works, and it truly is not founded on hard science. I can accept a therapy for which we don't know the mechanism, and indeed there are many examples in medicine. However, don't act like chiropractic is somehow better and more scientific than other CAM modalities, when you cannot produce a logical, proven mechanism.
 
It's funny how you stumble upon things sometimes. Here's a letter to the editor of BMJ (in 1999) from Gordon Waddell, MD, who you should all have at least heard of. I couldn't have said it better myself:



[SIZE=+1]Evidence for manipulation is stronger than that for most orthodox medical treatments[/SIZE]

E[SIZE=-1]DITOR[/SIZE]
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As one of the coauthors of the Clinical Standards Advisory Group's report on back pain1 and the Royal College of General Practitioners' guidelines on acute low back pain,2 I am disappointed by Ernst and Assendelft's editorial on chiropractic.3 The authors present a critical view of chiropractic under the guise of scientific objectivity, but I had hoped that we had got beyond that stage of interprofessional confrontation. (emphasis Facetguy's)
Burton and I recently reviewed international guidelines for low back pain, and none of them specifically recommend chiropractic.4 What they do all say, and what all recent reviews conclude to varying degrees, is that considerable evidence now exists that manipulation is an effective treatment for low back pain. Indeed, there is stronger evidence for manipulation than for most orthodox medical treatments. The guidelines also advise that manipulation should be performed by a trained professional but that there is no clear evidence whether it is better performed by a chiropractor, an osteopath, a physiotherapist, or a doctor with special training.
Ernst and Assendelft's review of the risks of manipulation is particularly biased. Although the subject of this editorial is low back pain, they concentrate on the admittedly higher risks of cervical manipulation. Even then, orthodox medicine has a long way to go to reduce the rate of serious complications of most of our investigations and treatments to the order of 1:0.2-1 million. The adverse reactions to which the authors refer are temporary aggravations of symptoms or minor subjective reactions; in a personal series, that rate is comparable to figures for every other orthodox treatment for back pain. What matters is the balance of effectiveness versus risk, and that is strongly in favour of manipulation. The politics and costs of any NHS provision of a service are a completely separate and more relevant debate.

None of us have a good answer for low back pain
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orthodox medicine, professors, and methodologists least of all. Chiropractic is not the magic answer for back pain, and it should and can stand up to fair criticism, but orthodox medicine could potentially also learn a lot from chiropractic.
5 The needs of patients with back pain should override our professional dignities, and the real need is for us all to work together. That cooperation is not likely to be helped by this kind of editorial.

Gordon Waddell, Orthopaedic surgeon.
[SIZE=-1]Glasgow Nuffield Hospital, Glasgow G12 0PJ[/SIZE]

  1. <LI value=1>Clinical Standards Advisory Group. Report on back pain. London: HMSO , 1994. <LI value=2><A name=B3-2 jQuery1229880083125="133">Royal College of General Practitioners. Clinical guidelines for the management of acute low back pain. London: RCGP , 1996. <LI value=3><A name=B3-3 jQuery1229880083125="134">Ernst E, Assendelft WJJ. Chiropractic for low back pain. BMJ 1998; 317: 160. (18 July.) <LI value=4><A name=B3-4 jQuery1229880083125="135">Burton AK, Waddell G. Clinical guidelines in the management of low back pain. In: Nordin M, ed. New approaches to the low back pain patient. London: Baillière Tindall, 1998:17-35. (Baillière's clinical rheumatology.)
  2. <A name=B3-5 jQuery1229880083125="136">Waddell G. The back pain revolution. Edinburgh: Churchill Livingstone , 1998.
 
I wonder if the collective sum of mental energy used quarreling in this thread would be sufficient to boil a cup of water?
 
I posted that from the ACA website, because I think they have a lot of nerve implying that chiropractors have more clinical training than physicians, even though they fail to mention the additional 3-7 years of 80 hour weeks that physicians must go through before they can practice on their own. The average physician probably has at least 3-4x more clinical training before independent practice than the average chiropractor. Furthermore, they claim that chiropractors are more highly trained in anatomy, physiology, and rehabilitation. Rehabilitation (or the chiropractic version of it) maybe, but there is no way that chiros have more anatomy and physiology training than physicians. The focus is on ONE SYSTEM of the body. Doctors have to know the anatomy, physiology, histology AND pathology of EVERY system of the body.

You are making the assumption that chiropractic students study only the spine, and you would be incorrect. But on the broader issue, I don't think anyone would argue with your statement that medical education is more encompassing than that of chiropractic, if for no other reason than the inclusion of a residency. I've got no beef with that at all (in fact I'm trying to get there myself!!). But at least acknowledge that chiro school isn't just a few months of learning how to crack backs. The profession continues to improve itself and should be commended for that.

The problem is that you have claimed that chiropractic has come a long way from the subluxation theory, and that now it is founded on legitimate science. The model you have posted might as well be subluxation theory. It puts forward lots of theories, but little evidence. Whether we call it subluxation or mechanoreceptor stimulation doesn't matter. The fact is, you cannot explain how chiropractic works, and it truly is not founded on hard science. I can accept a therapy for which we don't know the mechanism, and indeed there are many examples in medicine. However, don't act like chiropractic is somehow better and more scientific than other CAM modalities, when you cannot produce a logical, proven mechanism.

Cpants, there are plenty of studies that measure the straightforward aspects of pain reduction, improved range of motion, patient satisfaction, cost effectiveness and the like. Those things are easier to measure and thus have already been done, and continue to be done. Studying the more complex neurophysiologic effects of spinal manipulation is obviously more difficult, you must agree. Utilizing non-chiropractic-based basic science research, along with more chiro-specific study, we are piecing together the puzzle. It won't happen overnight. But enough is known of neurology/neuroanatomy/neurophysiology to put together a good working model and theories. What's wrong with that? And I'm sure that someone who is more entrenched in these studies on a daily basis could do a better job than I in explaining the details (just as, say, a full-time academic pharmacologist could do a better job of explaining how a particular medication works than you can). I'm a clinician, not a researcher.

And I do think that chiropractic is more advanced than other CAM modalities due to its ever-growing science base and education/licensure requirements.
 
I wonder if the collective sum of mental energy used quarreling in this thread would be sufficient to boil a cup of water?

I would use the term "discussing" or "exchanging ideas" over "quarreling".
 
It's funny how you stumble upon things sometimes. Here's a letter to the editor of BMJ (in 1999) from Gordon Waddell, MD, who you should all have at least heard of. I couldn't have said it better myself:



[SIZE=+1]Evidence for manipulation is stronger than that for most orthodox medical treatments[/SIZE]

Rubbish. The evidence of benefit for manipulation is rather poor and unconvincing.

More importantly, the evidence of risk is almost totally unknown. We just don't know if manipulation is safe or not.
 
Rubbish. The evidence of benefit for manipulation is rather poor and unconvincing.

More importantly, the evidence of risk is almost totally unknown. We just don't know if manipulation is safe or not.

Stewie, first on the safety thing. You tried to convince us of this before and turned up scant evidence of patients feeling sore for a half day. Yes, I know, it's underreported yada yada yada. Just some advice: if you insist on criticizing chiropractic, take a different approach than the safety angle 'cause that ain't gonna cut it.

As to the evidence of effectiveness, the onus is on you, my friend. The literature is there. Does there need to be more? Of course, and there will be. No one is resting on any laurels here. Science marches on and seeks to advance, and chiropractic is no different. Here is yet another study examining the effectiveness of spinal manipulation for neck and back pain:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=historysearch&querykey=10

The opening line of the abstract is interesting: "Despite the many published randomized clinical trials (RCTs), a substantial number of reviews and several national clinical guidelines, much controversy still remains regarding the evidence for or against efficacy of spinal manipulation for low back pain and neck pain." At this point, it is more outright bias and old feelings that are keeping folks like yourself from seeing the studies objectively. And Ernst, who I believe you have cited before, has been openly criticized in print for biased and selective reviews of the literature vis a vis spinal manipulation, so please don't rely on his findings alone to form your opinions.

If you take the few minutes to read through the above abstract, you will see that the authors comment on the evidence for acute LBP, chronic LBP, mixed acute/chronic LBP, acute neck pain, chronic neck pain, and mixed acute/chronic neck pain. They conclude "Our data synthesis suggests that recommendations can be made with some confidence regarding the use of SMT and/or MOB as a viable option for the treatment of both low back pain and NP." Again, is more study needed? Yes, as always. But, c'mon, don't be so blinded.

Perhaps you just have difficulty accepting that the treatment of neck and back pain is imperfect, regardless of who is doing it. Once this sinks in, you will hopefully drop the anti-chiropractic stance and admit that it is at least as good as anything else out there. That doesn't even mean to say it is superior to anything else out there (although there is data that says it is sometimes), or that manipulation will cure everyone. Neck and back pain patients often tend to drift around, dissatisfied and looking for answers. Why not suggest a trial of manipulation if other things aren't working? Your patients might just thank you for it.
 
facetguy, I'm willing to keep an open mind on manipulations on back/neck problems. But what do you think about some chiropractors claiming to heal asthma, allergies, heart problems, etc? For me, the real issue is with those chiropractors who pretend (or convince themselves?) that all diseases are connected to the back/spine.
 
...As far as the more extensive training thing, I think it is arguable that chiro students do indeed focus more on anatomy and biomechanics and rehab exercises than do medical students...

This is utterly ridiculous. Any medical student will tell you that anatomy is one of the principal subjects and an important focus of of their pre-clinical training. This is why we dissect cadavers, sweat through anatomy "practicals" and memorize the name and function of every muscle in the body (including those that stabilize and move the spine) and the nerves that make 'em go. Chiropractic students on the other hand receive shoddy high-school level instruction in this kind of thing from quacks who believe that manipulating vertebrate (the treatment modality of chiropractic) can cure and prevent disease.

In the case of chiropractic student, this is like studying astronomy to improve your skill in casting horoscopes.
 
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And your qualifications in this area are what again? Chiro school places quite a bit of emphasis on the areas of diet, nutrition and rehabilitative exercise, surely beyond "common sense things". (And, speaking for myself, I have pursued a graduate degree in human nutrition beyond chiro school, so I at least as an individual have a lot to offer in this area.)

There is very little of use beyond the common sense things, that is, to exercise, avoid smoking, drink sparingly, eat a healthy, varied diet and in all things exercise moderation and good sense. None of it is complicated and you do not need a fancy degree to advise your overweight patient to get off his ass and walk a few miles a day. The rest of it, the drive in this country to eat one's way to good health by use of supplements or faddish drivel is mostly a waste of time and if effective, is only marginally so and not worth the money and time invested in it, especially when even small lifestyle changes are an order of magnitude more effective.

My qualifications to say this are a medical degree, four years of residency, a very good understanding of physiology and a complete and cynical understanding of human nature. Not to mention the ability to read medical literature and separate the legitimate from the far-fetched. Pushing supplements and other quackery on your patients makes you money (and many chiropractors really need the money) but is not sound medical practice. Ironically, I have a lot more leeway to give sound medical advice to my patients than you do you yours. I have plenty of them and do not have to sugar-coat my advice to keep them coming; holding out to them the hope of a pill or a supplement to fix them like you do.

As for the emphasis of chiropractic school, it is and continues to be the prevention and treatment of disease by manipulation of the spine. The rest is just dross thrown in to disguise the profession as a legitimate medical pursuit. Not only is your education substandard but, under the theory that bad ingredients make a bad dish no matter how you try to dress it up, the substandard academic qualifications of chiropractic school matriculants almost speaks for itself.
 
facetguy, I'm willing to keep an open mind on manipulations on back/neck problems. But what do you think about some chiropractors claiming to heal asthma, allergies, heart problems, etc? For me, the real issue is with those chiropractors who pretend (or convince themselves?) that all diseases are connected to the back/spine.

Yeah, that's a problem that quite possibly is the primary reason the chiro profession has had such problems gaining "acceptance". Once you get away from neuromusculoskeletal issues, the evidence thins considerably and is mostly anecdotal. I will say that I have patients that swear I help their allergies or their asthma (no one has credited me with manipulation-induced cardiac improvements yet though!), and I simply smile at them and say "Hey, that's great". They don't come to me for those problems; those are sort of side-benefits. But they are so inconsistent that I obviously would never advertise them as benefits of manipulation.

There is a sincere and hopefully growing movement among chiropractors to stick with what we are best at: treatment of musculoskeletal problems primarily of the spine. Wouldn't you feel better about referring a patient to someone like me as opposed to someone who professes all types of craziness? I have treated MDs, DOs, PTs, dentists, and PhDs, and I receive referrals from family physicians and 3 pain management groups (so far!) because they know that I take a level-headed approach to patient care and won't try to sell them or their patients on any witchcraft...and also because I can help their patients. I've said this before, but you should really put thought into adding a chiropractor who you trust to your "team" so to speak for patients with neck and back pain.
 
This is utterly ridiculous. Any medical student will tell you that anatomy is one of the principal subjects and an important focus of of their pre-clinical training. This is why we dissect cadavers, sweat through anatomy "practicals" and memorize the name and function of every muscle in the body (including those that stabilize and move the spine) and the nerves that make 'em go. Chiropractic students on the other hand receive shoddy high-school level instruction in this kind of thing from quacks who believe that manipulating vertebrate (the treatment modality of chiropractic) can cure and prevent disease.

In the case of chiropractic student, this is like studying astronomy to improve your skill in casting horoscopes.

The "shoddy high-school level instruction" I received in anatomy was at the direction of MDs and PhDs, and I too sweated through many anatomy practicals on cadavers, and I too memorized the name and function of every muscle and nerve in the body. Your assumption otherwise just again confirms that you are way out of touch. You can at least get up to date on things before commenting. Chiro students continue to have that anatomy knowledge reinforced by the continued study of biomechanics and the very nature of our treatments. There's definitely a 'use it or lose it' issue at work here. And, from what I've read on SDN (which automatically makes me an expert, right?), anatomy isn't a big focus on the USMLE/COMLEX, so I would think that busy students would prefer to give up a little anatomy brain space to make way for other more high-yield information.
 
[SIZE=+1]Evidence for manipulation is stronger than that for most orthodox medical treatments[/SIZE]

Totally ridiculous. I use orthodox medical treatments on patients every day and they not only work but have been proven by rigorous evidence-based medicine. That is why, for example, when I have a patient come in with an acute asthma exacerbation I am reasonably confident that a few treatments with nebulized albuterol will improve his symptoms. There is no evidence whatsoever that popping his spine will improve his symptoms in the acute setting or prevent or ameliorate them as part of some wacky preventative care therapy.

Now, it is true that many standard medical treatments are only marginally effective and that a good case can be made for not doing them, especially from the point of view of cost versus benefit but that's kind of the point. If somebody discovers that we are wasting money on a useless or only marginally effective therapy I will be happy...no..overjoyed...to abandon it. In the world of Complementary and Alternative medicine however, the discovery that some half-baked therapy was slightly (slightly) more effective than a placebo in a poorly constructed study is viewed in the CAM community as a the equivalent of cracking the genetic code and provides cover to continue dumping even more money down the rat hole of useless medical care.

In other words, although as a previous poster pointed out, your entire profession is no more effective than a couple of motrins, you'll keep at it because it's a religion to you.
 
The "shoddy high-school level instruction" I received in anatomy was at the direction of MDs and PhDs, and I too sweated through many anatomy practicals on cadavers, and I too memorized the name and function of every muscle and nerve in the body. Your assumption otherwise just again confirms that you are way out of touch. You can at least get up to date on things before commenting. Chiro students continue to have that anatomy knowledge reinforced by the continued study of biomechanics and the very nature of our treatments. There's definitely a 'use it or lose it' issue at work here. And, from what I've read on SDN (which automatically makes me an expert, right?), anatomy isn't a big focus on the USMLE/COMLEX, so I would think that busy students would prefer to give up a little anatomy brain space to make way for other more high-yield information.

Anatomy is a huge focus of first year medical school.

And by the way, most medical care provided in this country is almost useless and almost entirely a waste of money, at least from a cost versus benefit angle. This includes real medical care and CAM (which is all a waste you understand). The goal of our society should be to discourage people from going to the doctor, not to suck them in by turning every aspect of life into a medical problem. With the exception of bad genetics and bad luck, most people could be fairly healthy and live long lives with a few lifestyle modifications and this does not include regular chiropractic adjustments either. The criminality of chiropractic and other CAM therapies is that it provides an expensive and imaginary solution to self-limiting problems that either require no treatment whatsoever or, if they do require treatment, require it by real medicine and not some half-baked fantasy therapies that are the modern equivalent of fairy magic.
 
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The day that chiropractic is PROVEN to be more effective than a placebo massage at relieving back pain, asthma, sinusitis, etc. compared to "orthodox" medicine will be the day that I will recommend it to every single patient that comes through my door that I cannot improve with modern medicine. However, that day has yet to come. As panda bear so greatly put it a long time ago in an article of his, while chiros have a superior knowledge of spinal anatomy, all of those muscles and nerves they claim to move around are very strong and are designed to prevent movement of the spine in unwanted directions. Chiropractic certainly has some placebo effects related to catecholamines and endorphins and all those other nice chemicals that our resident chiro here has rattled off. The fact is is that chiropractic is basically massage therapy with a good background in science. Facet, I am sure that you can rattle off all of those patients who you have personally seen that have been "helped" by chiro, and I am sure that some of them maybe were. They probably strained their back and went to the chiro, and after some glorified massage they felt better. A patient with a herniated disc would not have done so well, and you know it. I know from personal experience, back in my football days, after a coach recommended a chiro for my hip pain that I had been getting after practice. This guy got touchy feely with my whole leg and my low back, and while it felt refreshing, the pain came back after every practice. Finally got some imaging and turned out I had an impinging osteophyte on my femoral head. What would have been the chiropractic answer for that? I wonder.
 
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Stewie, first on the safety thing. You tried to convince us of this before and turned up scant evidence of patients feeling sore for a half day. Yes, I know, it's underreported yada yada yada. Just some advice: if you insist on criticizing chiropractic, take a different approach than the safety angle 'cause that ain't gonna cut it.

This would be hilarious if it weren't so downright stupid. You've just admitted that you do not know if it is safe or not, yet you simply shrug your shoulders and ignore it!

As to the evidence of effectiveness, the onus is on you, my friend. The literature is there.

No, it is on YOU. I've already quoted the highest level of evidence there is. You have not. It's as simple as that.

And Ernst, who I believe you have cited before, has been openly criticized in print for biased and selective reviews of the literature vis a vis spinal manipulation, so please don't rely on his findings alone to form your opinions.

He has been openly criticised by quacks and *****s. His systematic reviews are as good as they get.

Perhaps you just have difficulty accepting that the treatment of neck and back pain is imperfect, regardless of who is doing it.

Not at all. I simply have difficulty accepting treatments that do not have good evidence of efficacy, and do not have good evidence of safety.

Ps. I couldn't see the paper you linked. The link is broken.
 
The day that chiropractic is PROVEN to be more effective than a placebo massage at relieving back pain, asthma, sinusitis, etc. compared to "orthodox" medicine will be the day that I will recommend it to every single patient that comes through my door that I cannot improve with modern medicine. However, that day has yet to come. As panda bear so greatly put it a long time ago in an article of his, while chiros have a superior knowledge of spinal anatomy, all of those muscles and nerves they claim to move around are very strong and are designed to prevent movement of the spine in unwanted directions. Chiropractic certainly has some placebo effects related to catecholamines and endorphins and all those other nice chemicals that our resident chiro here has rattled off. The fact is is that chiropractic is basically massage therapy with a good background in science. Facet, I am sure that you can rattle off all of those patients who you have personally seen that have been "helped" by chiro, and I am sure that some of them maybe were. They probably strained their back and went to the chiro, and after some glorified massage they felt better. A patient with a herniated disc would not have done so well, and you know it. I know from personal experience, back in my football days, after a coach recommended a chiro for my hip pain that I had been getting after practice. This guy got touchy feely with my whole leg and my low back, and while it felt refreshing, the pain came back after every practice. Finally got some imaging and turned out I had an impinging osteophyte on my femoral head. What would have been the chiropractic answer for that? I wonder.

A few things here. First, spinal manipulation has been proven more effective than placebo for back pain, so get your scrip pad out.

Don't tell Panda that you said chiros have a "superior knowledge of spinal anatomy". He might start a blog against you.

As far as the "muscles and nerves" we "move around" being very strong, that's where the 'high velocity' in high velocity short amplitude manipulation comes in. If you understood this, you wouldn't have commented as you did. But clearly you don't understand this.

Regarding patients with herniated discs, I treat them every day. Some do well, some require meds, some require injections, and a few require surgery. They are each managed appropriately.

Wonder no longer about the chiropractic answer to a spur impinging on your femoral head. The answer is a referral to an orthopedist. Off you go.

And I enjoyed your n=1 study of chiropractic care of football injuries. Very informative.
 
Oprah is a carnival. I can't believe anyone takes her seriously.

If you are the author of a book and Oprah likes your book, you take her very seriously! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (For the record, I never watch Oprah.)
 
I have to say that chiropractors should really try to normalize the practice. It would serve the entire field well if all those who claim to cure things like asthma by manipulation were somehow restricted from making those claims. I don't know what would the legal alleys be for this, but I'd imagine it would be similar to an ENT doctor trying to do heart surgery. Not only this would help the patients by steering them away from wasting money on dishonest chiros, but it would also somewhat increase respect for the DCs.

And yes, as long as doctors fail to concentrate on prevention, alternative medicine will be strong and will become stronger. The entire health system sucks. There are a lot of bad chiros out there and same is true for doctors. The difference between effective and ineffective is often based on the individual professional, rather than the field.

I was wondering, it seems that a lot of med students here attacked alternative medicine in general, not just chiro. That's why I wanted to ask: what is your opinion about hypnosis? Do you think it's CAM, quack, snake oil, or do you believe that it does have merits, such as treating insomnia, addiction, or having some effect on Parkinson's disease, among others? I'd like a well thought out answer to this. If you think that it's a useless field, please provide 1.Basis for you belief, and 2.Where did you obtain your information.
 
This would be hilarious if it weren't so downright stupid. You've just admitted that you do not know if it is safe or not, yet you simply shrug your shoulders and ignore it!

Let's play nice now. And where did I admit that chiro's safety is questioned? You said that. Don't get confused.

No, it is on YOU. I've already quoted the highest level of evidence there is. You have not. It's as simple as that.

You just refuse to acknowledge anything that is remotely complimentary to chiropractic. And, hey, if you truly have done your due diligence and thus formed your opinion, then great. At least you can claim that. Others cannot. (And you still haven't done that due diligence.)

He has been openly criticised by quacks and *****s. His systematic reviews are as good as they get.

If you consider leaving out selected studies to make your point as good as it gets, then yes, you are right. And he has been criticized by both your collegues and mine. This may interest you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

One of those co-authors (Assendelft) even co-authored an earlier review with Ernst, so I would assume he knows the guy pretty well.

Ps. I couldn't see the paper you linked. The link is broken.

I'll try it again:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
Let's play nice now. And where did I admit that chiro's safety is questioned?

When you admitted that adverse events of chiro are under-reported. Since the actual rate and type of adverse events are unknown, safety is therefore unknown.


You just refuse to acknowledge anything that is remotely complimentary to chiropractic. And, hey, if you truly have done your due diligence and thus formed your opinion, then great. At least you can claim that. Others cannot. (And you still haven't done that due diligence.)

We are going to have to disagree on this. I can only reply by saying that you are one who has not done enough reading.


If you consider leaving out selected studies to make your point as good as it gets, then yes, you are right. And he has been criticized by both your collegues and mine. This may interest you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

One of those co-authors (Assendelft) even co-authored an earlier review with Ernst, so I would assume he knows the guy pretty well.

The criticisms are largely specious. The only one that is properly acceptable is the criticism that Ernst did not state why his review was restricted to reviews from 2000 onwards.
 
I have to say that chiropractors should really try to normalize the practice. It would serve the entire field well if all those who claim to cure things like asthma by manipulation were somehow restricted from making those claims. I don't know what would the legal alleys be for this, but I'd imagine it would be similar to an ENT doctor trying to do heart surgery. Not only this would help the patients by steering them away from wasting money on dishonest chiros, but it would also somewhat increase respect for the DCs.

Since patients already see them in boatloads and since insurance companies do pay for their services, chiropractors already feel legitimate. So I doubt there is any motivation for them to standardize their practice. But it would be great if chiropractors would take initiative to do this.
 
Facet-
1. I openly admit that my n=1 study is in no way shape or form scientific, I just wanted to relay a personal experience.
2. I am curious as to how you would manage a pt. with a herniated disc without a referral to an orthopedist. Would you try "high velocity" manipulation?
3. Panda will not start a blog against me because he really did say those words himself.
4. Show me the research from a respected, peer reviewed journal, with a title that does not contain the words chiropractic, manipulation, or alternative medicine that proves chiropractic is better than placebo for low back pain.
When you do, I'll PM you three articles from NEJM alone that will dispute it. Agree to disagree, I guess. After we do that, do the same thing for manipulation compared to placebo for the treatment of asthma.
5. I will openly admit, here and now, that "orthodox" medicine who you so obviously dislike does not have all of the answers. In fact we have very few answers compared to the amount of information that we do not know. What I do know, however, is that modern chiropractic medicine borders on malpractice when they start treating children for asthma, reject vaccinations, and generally take over primary care for some patients. Other chiros know their purpose, and will only "treat" things that they know will not harm the patient further by not seeking medical attention.
6. As far as your "high veloctiy" manipulation goes, yes I have read about it, no I havent gone to chiropractic school so I'm sure you will dispute what I say here, but the average human being does not contain the strength to move the spine in any significant way, minus neck rotation. And neck rotation at high velocity is bad, but you will probably dispute that also. This will be my last post on this subject on here, but as I am certainly open to debating this further with you please see my blog. I would love to trade off articles, info, what you learned vs. what I am learning, etc to get a better idea about what you are up to in that mysterious world of chiropractic.
 
And yes, as long as doctors fail to concentrate on prevention, alternative medicine will be strong and will become stronger. The entire health system sucks. There are a lot of bad chiros out there and same is true for doctors. The difference between effective and ineffective is often based on the individual professional, rather than the field.

You see, you have imbibed the CAM Koolaid when you say (and believe) that doctors don't concentrate on preventative medicine. From vaccines to my annual physical where my doctor checks my cholesterol and blood pressure, modern medicine is deeply involved in prevention. Some of us happen to be in specialties where prevention is not emphasized (like Emergency Medicine) but every family physician or internist you will meet drives themselves crazy teaching, counseling, and monitoring their patients in the hopes of preventing diabetes, heart attacks, lung disease and the other scourges of our affluent, largely sedentary population.

Memo to you and the rest of the SDN crowd who are too "open minded" to allow for common sense. Manipulation of the spine is not, repeat not, preventative medicine in any way, shape, or form. Not only does it treat nothing but it prevents nothing as well. Likewise the pushing of dietary supplements and other magic potions to a gullible and medically unsophisticated public. The entire profession of chiropractic as described in this thread could be, I repeat, replaced with a couple of motrins...and a multivitamin.

In other words, don't buy into the meme that CAM fills any other unmet medical need except an emotional one. The patient didn't like it when the big old bad meany of an Emergency Physician was blunt with him so he runs to the acupuncturist who validates whatever emotional needs he has at the time. Which is fine. It's a free country but when scarce public money is spent on expensive hand-holding, things that are little more than elaborate placebos, you have just got to draw the line. I think we waste enough money on legitimate medicine in this country already.

The difference, by the way, between effective and ineffective medicine is that one works and one doesn't. You can be the best chiropractor in the world or the best acupuncturist but since the entire basis for your profession is ridiculous, you can no more be effective than the most knowledgable astrologer in the world can predict the future. In other words, while there are plenty of bad doctors out there (and I know several personally), there is no such thing as a good chiropractor. They are all ridiculous and ineffective and the only saving grace of some of them is that they are harmless.
 
Everything You Need to Know About CAM

1. The Imperfections of real medicine do not validate your kooky theories.

You, oh purveyor of snake oil, may exhaust yourself pointing out the flaws in medical science. You may grimly list the horrific side effects of many of our therapies and gleefully highlight the lack of evidence for quite a few things done in the real medical world. You may even solemnly condemn our general inability to really cure much of anything but, apart from making yourself really tired and giving me a crick in my neck from nodding in agreement, all you will have demonstrated is that real medicine is an imperfect business which is not a huge revelation to anyone who has spent more than an hour in a nursing home, a hospital, or any other place where you can find incredibly sick people who, despite our best efforts, often remain incredibly sick and die after being flogged by the mightiest weapons in the medical armatorium. A darn shame but it does not follow that the solution to our limited medical knowledge is pixie dust, magical gnomes, or spiritual energy streaming from your fingertips.

On the other hand, while medicine is imperfect you'd have to be a ***** or totally brainwashed into your particular CAM cult to not recognize the tremendous advances in medicine even over the last twenty years to say nothing of the huge leap from the days of snake oil at the turn of the last century. That's the point of modern medicine. It advances. Expanding knowledge leads to to increasingly sophisticated and effective therapies. It's Complementary and Alternative Medicine that is perfect. Everything you need to know about acupuncture for example, was elucidated a thousand years ago well before those wily Chinese had even the foggiest notion about germs or cardiac physiology. They so totally nailed it that no new research needs to be done. It's all about qi and the meridians along which it happily flows and is so perfect as to be impervious to debate, refutation, or criticism. While we plod along with our feeble attempts to expand medical knowledge acupuncurists ply their needles in service of a perfect medical philosophy that was ossified in the Dark Ages.

2. The complexity of your kooky theory does not validate it.

For thousands of years Astrology was considered a legitimate science and the best minds of those distant ages devoted their lives to deriving horoscopes and divining the effects of the stars on our lives. They wrote books, developed complicated theories, and tried to apply the principles of Astrology in every aspect of life including medicine. And yet today if you proposed endowing a Chair of Astrology at your Alma Mater or incorporated horoscopes in your medical practice I have no doubt that even the most laissez-faire of liberal academics, grimly keeping their minds open in the face of every other stupidity under the sun, would at last have their fill and laugh in your face with all the pent-up rage of a politically correct bureaucrat forced to shuck and jive to ideas he knows to be ridiculous. Clearly astrology is ridiculous despite the vast amounts of intellectual energy that have been (and still are) devoted to it.

In the same vein, I have no doubt that Ayurvedic Medicine has been beaten to death by the learned men of India for thousands of years in the same manner that Astrology was dissected in the West. I also have no doubt that there is a massive body of Ayurvedic scholarship collecting dust in libraries from Duluth to Calcutta. But as it's a system of medicine based on a highly imperfect understanding of physiology, more religious than scientific, and Indians who used it pretty much dropped like flies from diseases that it took Western medicine to defeat, except for historical interest all of that intellectual activity is as useless as trying to divine the future from the entrails of birds. You can learn Sanskrit to really get into the source material but you're wasting your time. The initial premise is wrong and, like a house built on weak foundation, no matter how much you spend on the bathrooms it's still going to collapse.

3. Complementary and Alternative Medicine is parasitic, not symbiotic.

Suppose I were to actually build a house. Along with a foundation it would require framing of the walls and floors, siding, wiring, glazing, plumbing and a dozen other skilled trades coordinating their efforts. The practitioners of Complementary and Alternative Medicine would be like your Aunt Mildred telling you how to hang the toilet paper in the finished bathrooms and then trying to claim credit as an essential part in the construction. Complementary and alternative medicine only exists because real medicine does all of the heavy lifting leaving a risk-free environment in which it may ply its patent remedies. At best it's an afterthought, something that legitimate hospitals add to their services to attract the kook money. At worst it's a cynical ploy to fleece a little extra from the desperate, many of whom are dying and will gladly pay for another straw to grasp. In no way is it an essential part of medical therapy except that it provides entertainment to the patients and their families while medicine and nature run their courses.

4. Placebo Medicine is not Medicine.

Millions of dollars are wasted every year on shoddily constructed studies trying to demonstrate efficacy of Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The results have been disappointing and entirely predictable. Generally, if you ignore poor study design and spin the data just so, CAM is shown to be occasionally but not reliably slightly, and we're talking slightly, more effective than placebo. These results are naturally touted as a both a huge victory for kook-dom and as a justification for continuing to charge large sums of money for therapies that are so close to placebo in their effectiveness that you should wonder why the opposite conclusion isn't derived. In other words, maybe if your treatment modality is so iffy, requiring as it does to be viewed through squinted eyes in dim light at a distance of several hundred feet to show even a trace of effectiveness, maybe you need to reassess your career goals. Call me a cynic but something that is slightly better than placebo could also be called next to useless. Certainly not worth spending a lot of money on unless it carries a big disclaimer saying, "For Entertainment Purposes Only."

5. You Can be Fooled

I'm a fairly intelligent guy Not a super-genius or anything like that but I can tease out the truth of most things if given enough time and, when the wind is just right, can tell a hawk from a handsaw. And yet I am not so confident in my intelligence that I don't think I can be fooled. Because, for example, I having nothing but a polite interest in automotive technology I am pretty much at the mercy of my mechanic when he describes the repairs needed by our aging pair of automobiles. I trust the guy because nothing he has ever suggested sounds too outrageous and on a couple of occasions he replaced a three-dollar fuse when he could have taken me for an alternator. I am however at his mercy unless I want to study car repair or haul the thing to more than one mechanic.

Consider the typical customer of Complementary and Alternative Medicine. They are usually fairly intelligent and, by necessity, prosperous enough to pay for something as exotic as a Chakra tuning. But as far as medical knowledge? Not even a clue except for some superficial things and the usual lies and half-truths they have found on the internet. Medicine is an order of magnitude more complicated than auto-repair (although a good mechanic, like a good barber, is worth his weight in platinum) and cannot be casually learned by most people. I can read about engines and have enough of an understanding of their workings to understand what my mechanic is telling me but compared to learning the necessary background to diagnose, treat, and manage disease, this does not require too much effort. When it comes to medicine, the public who undeniably have a huge interest in the subject naturally gravitate towards explanations that simplify things a tad and don't require quite the intensive science background.

It's just human nature. We prefer the simple explanations that do not require complicated and often non-linear thinking. Acupuncture, for example, is billed as redirecting the flow of mystical energy in the body by the use of needles. It jibes pretty well with what most people learned watching those poorly animated Saturday morning cartoons where, instead of incurring the expense of animating the characters, every important action is mediated by some kind of force field or power ray shooting out of Captain Planet's hands. Thus there is a natural tendency of the public to accept Acupuncture, seeing as it jibes with their world-view. Or consider Homeopathy whose founding principle, that like cures like, is not only appealing to the ear and the heart but also sounds strangely like some of the dim knowledge the public has about the action of vaccines. If they had a more detailed understanding of the immune system it wouldn't sound so good but who has the time to read a boring old immunology textbook when American Idol is down to the final four?

Intelligent as they are I have to laugh at the typical consumer of Complementary and Alternative Medicine who, while open-minded to a fault, deride speaking in tongues, Christian faith healing, and other barbaric customs of the uncouth rubes infesting the backwoods but pay good money to have some charlatan extract bad Chakra. The difference between some sweaty little televangelist and your local purveyor of Complementary and Alternative Medicine is nothing but style and body mass index and you are being robbed just as surely as if you are sending money for prayer intercession to the Reverend Jimmy Swaggert. You can be fooled, especially when it comes to religion. What, after all, is the standard orthodoxy of open-mindedness, non-judgmentalism, and self-absorption but a religion? It preaches that belief is a substitute for reality and that to even question its central belief, that self-created reality trumps the real kind, is to be an infidel.

The denizen of a mouldering single-wide trailer in Sisterboff, Arkansas sending money to an oily television preacher so Jesus can reveal the winning lottery numbers is philosophically no different than a fit, professional woman swallowing her homeopathic remedies. One has a faith in her dimly understood religion, the other in her poorly understood notion of science. Both are being played for suckers.

6. Quantum Physics, The Last Refuge of Scoundrels

Quantum physics describes the relationships between energy and matter at the subatomic level where the principles of classical physics (momentum, acceleration, velocity, etc.) do not apply. In particular it addresses the relationship between the orbital shells of electrons and photons. It is not a goofy, mystical endeavor that exists outside the realm of the rational world and in fact, while classical physics cannot explain quantum phenomena, quantum physics explains classical physics which results from the cumulative effects of quantum properties.

Quantum mechanics no more explains Reiki, Homeopathy, or Acupuncture than do magic pixies. Or to put it another way, if you were to posit quantum effects as a mechanism for your particular quackery du jour as is common among the purveyors of complementary and alternative medicine you may as well use it to bolster your belief in just about anything at all, no matter how ridiculous. To be sure the field of quantum physics is expanding and there is much to be learned. But it is not expanding towards Ayurvedic Medicine or Homeopathy. Physicists are hard at work trying to reconcile quantum physics with relativity, not proving the existence of Chakra. So sorry. Like I said, you can be fooled and your Homeopath desperately clinging to quantum theory knows less about it than he does about medicine. It's just part of the con; his attempt to mix enough scientific chatter into a his otherwise nonsensical duckspeak so you will buy it.

7. Political Correctness Does Not Apply to Medicine


The ancient Chinese did not have advanced medical knowledge which allowed them to live long, healthy lives. And they did not, as has been suggested, have diseases unique to their own culture against which their indigenous medicine was effective but which does not work against the white man's diseases. It is probably true that the Han Dynasty Chinese did not have too much colon cancer, for example, but then the average lifespan back then was around thirty and to live past sixty represented either an exceptionally privileged or lucky life. I am 43 and I have no health problems nor have I ever had any. But let's see how I do in another twenty years when all of those bacon and eggs have had a chance to work their magic. Who knows what diseases I will get? Whatever they are they will all be the sequelae of a life lived well beyond genetic usefulness and this potential smorgasbord of morbidity is only to be made possible because Western medicine can extend my life long enough for it to happen. In ancient China (or Europe, or Meso-American, or Africa) I would have been dead or decrepit by now and my predictable decline would have been ascribed to old age or maybe Utapu, the God of Rectal Fire. Not only that but the disease that finished me would have been poorly decribed and my long life into the forties would be testimony to the benefits of keeping my qi in order.

This is not to say that the ancients didn't occasionally stumble upon some legitimate medicine. Surgeons for the Roman Legions, for example, used silver staples to close wounds no doubt having observed that silver had some antiseptic properties. But they still had no idea of germ theory so anybody who would prefer the Legion's medicus vulnerarius over a modern trauma surgeon is an idiot.

Political correctness is an apologia by the guilt-ridden children of the baby-boomers for the current but by no means permanent economic, political, scientific, and military superiority of the West. It is an angst-ridden, completely irrational philosophy that has as its central theme that only Western man has ever behaved in a violent, selfish, or self-destructive manner. It constructs an artificial worldview and is an insubstantatial foundation on which to anchor medicine, a science which like all practical endeavors should be as rational as possible.

8.You Can't Have it Both Ways

I have some fundamentalist Christian relatives who believe the Bible to be a literal account of the creation of the world. They're not wishy-washy Christians who get all mushy around the edges and, in an effort to reconcile science and their weak faith, allow that perhaps "a day to God is a billion years to the rest of us." The Bible says the world was created in six days and by golly, it was created in six 24-hour days. God said it. They believe it. If you don't you're going to hell. Paleontology? Evolution? The fossil record? All tricks of the Deceiver to lead the faithful astray.

You may think that I dislike people who hold these beliefs, or that I am bothered by what I can only call their profound ignorance, but you would be wrong. I admire their faith and they are as welcome to it as anybody else is to theirs. I'll even send my kids to one of their private schools if I have the chance because learning math, reading, and writing (something not emphasized in many public schools as they are in the grip of their own peculiar religion) is not strictly dependent on a belief in evolution and we can always do a little deprogramming when they get home.

On the other hand I often find myself in goofy conversations (wrestling with pigs if you know the analogy) where my relatives insist that paleontology is bunk because Carbon-14 dating, apart from being a tool of the Devil, is wildly inaccurate and cannot establish the age of ancient fossils. A little later in the conversation we usually roll around to how someone has found the Ark, a barn-like structure on a mountain in Turkey, that has been positively Carbon-14 dated to the time of Noah. I am not a smart guy and I struggle, yes struggle, with sophisticated intellectual concepts but even I can see the contradiction here, the blatant doublethink required to both believe and at the same time disbelieve something depending on what you are trying to prove.

In much the same manner do the True Believers of Complementary and Alternative Medicine try to eat the proverbial cake and have it, too. The NIH, they proudly point out, studies CAM using the same methods used to study real science. Not only does this establish the validity of quackery in their minds but the very act of a government agency studying their peculiar little beliefs is an act of validation in itself. And yet, when numerous well-designed studies using rigorous statistical methods continue to show that Complementary and Alternative Medicine is nothing more than an expensive and highly detailed placebo, the usual accusations are made that the scientific method is inadequate to study qi or spiritual fire shooting from the appendages of the healer. The current meme of the homeopaths, for example, is that independent research of homeopathy is impossible because, through some quantum effect, the beliefs of the investigator influence the actual efficacy of homeopathic remedies. In other words, only a homeopath who believes in homeopathy can research homeopathic effects.

Which then, is it? Is your particular flavor of quackery a scientifically verifiable treatment modality or is it a religion whose secrets are only available to those who make the leap of faith required to believe it? You can't have it both ways. If you would enter the arena of science then you have to face the lions.

9. You are not the Pope
.

I mean, seriously now. Let's suppose, for the sake of the argument, that there is spiritual fire that can be channeled from your appendages to cure disease. What makes you think some greasy little sociology major who sat through a couple of motivational seminars is the one who can do it? The Pope, for his part, is the spiritual leader of the world's one billion Catholics, a deeply pious and theologically sophisticated man, and yet he would be the first to deny that he can work the kind of miracles that are the regular activity of oleagenous Pentacostal preachers and their svelte, holistic counterparts in the alternative medicine world. In other words, how do you verify the claims of your dime-store miracle workers? Has your Reiki healer graduated at the top of his class in Lahore or did he go to a cut-rate Reiki training course in Klamath Falls? How do you know your homeopath is shaking the mixture the right way? If there are several schools of acupuncture with their own meridians (and there are), who's nailing qi like a big dog and who's just jabbing you with needles? The fact that many of you don't even think to ask these questions but accept every smooth-talking healer as the real McCoy indicates a level of gullibility, already incredible, that should be embarrassing for any adult who purports to have any street-smarts.

10. "Holistic" is a marketing phrase.

When confronted by the evidence, the purveyors of Complementary and Alternative Medicine will fight a desperate rear-guard action as they retreat deeper into the interior of their vast, irrational country. Finally, in a last-ditch effort to hold onto even that infertile territory they will rally around the holistic banner, insisting that Complementary and Alternative Medicine treats the whole patient while real medicine does not. If you think about it however, it is real medicine, a profession with both generalists and specialists that is treating the whole patient or at least the important, non-entertaining parts. This is why there are so very few Reiki healers doing critical care medicine. Namely because the whole patient is an order of magnitude more complex than can be handled by what is essentially the entertainment committee. Cardiovascular collapse? Sepsis? Rectal bleeding? Please, they're too busy managing how the patient feels to be bothered with objective disease.

If there's one thing I'd like every medical student to unlearn its the supposed significance of the term "holistic." It's just a word like "granola," a clever marketing phrase which is used to disguise a bunch of unwholesome things. When I hear the word "holistic" I reach for my revolver.
 
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Panda, I hope you reconsider going into an academic setting. Students could use someone like you for a little balance in what we are being taught.
 
You see, you have imbibed the CAM Koolaid when you say (and believe) that doctors don't concentrate on preventative medicine. From vaccines to my annual physical where my doctor checks my cholesterol and blood pressure, modern medicine is deeply involved in prevention. Some of us happen to be in specialties where prevention is not emphasized (like Emergency Medicine) but every family physician or internist you will meet drives themselves crazy teaching, counseling, and monitoring their patients in the hopes of preventing diabetes, heart attacks, lung disease and the other scourges of our affluent, largely sedentary population.

Memo to you and the rest of the SDN crowd who are too "open minded" to allow for common sense. Manipulation of the spine is not, repeat not, preventative medicine in any way, shape, or form. Not only does it treat nothing but it prevents nothing as well. Likewise the pushing of dietary supplements and other magic potions to a gullible and medically unsophisticated public. The entire profession of chiropractic as described in this thread could be, I repeat, replaced with a couple of motrins...and a multivitamin.

In other words, don't buy into the meme that CAM fills any other unmet medical need except an emotional one. The patient didn't like it when the big old bad meany of an Emergency Physician was blunt with him so he runs to the acupuncturist who validates whatever emotional needs he has at the time. Which is fine. It's a free country but when scarce public money is spent on expensive hand-holding, things that are little more than elaborate placebos, you have just got to draw the line. I think we waste enough money on legitimate medicine in this country already.

The difference, by the way, between effective and ineffective medicine is that one works and one doesn't. You can be the best chiropractor in the world or the best acupuncturist but since the entire basis for your profession is ridiculous, you can no more be effective than the most knowledgable astrologer in the world can predict the future. In other words, while there are plenty of bad doctors out there (and I know several personally), there is no such thing as a good chiropractor. They are all ridiculous and ineffective and the only saving grace of some of them is that they are harmless.

Imbibation is not at play here. I don't drink Koolaid. Osmosis - maybe. If you are open minded, you are far more likely to come across data that contradicts your most venerated beliefs. If you call everything quack and snake oil, then you have closed your mind to any extra information outside of your comfort zone. No osmosis can occur. Just like I am open minded about CAM, I am also open minded about what you and others like you have to say. Just show me the scientific studies. We are NOT investing enough money into alternative healing methods. If you are really going to disagree with me about that, it can only be denial.

You, as an ER doc, can't do much about prevention. Nor can a surgeon. By the time you see someone, he/she is in need of some drastic intervention rather than prevention. There are only specific fields that can concentrate on prevention, like FP or IM, though there can be exceptions with some surgeons, such as ENTs, who can, in some situations recommend alternatives to surgery. I know you may not understand this. I'll just give you a simple example - when a patient goes to an ENT because he can't breathe through his nose, the ENT should not automatically recommend surgery to remove excess turbinates. He should suggest alternatives like avoiding situations where the person would be exposed to allergens (maybe he works with trees or pets a lot) or at least refer the person to someone who specializes in allergies. Do you know how many ENTs just cut the crap out of your nose only to discover that it grows back? Well, this is not right. And I don't really care that ENTs only specialize in surgery. They should be aware of simple things like allergies. You cannot cut out an allergy, as one internist said. I know of one particular case where we almost wanted to bring a lawsuit against the doctor - he did three freakin rhinoseptoplasties on the same patient without even ONCE questioning why did it not work. So when I talk about alternatives, I am not talking about just drinking chamomile tea or looking in a crystal to see your future health, but rather starting with the least invasive procedure and working up to the most invasive as a last resort. You have nothing to lose by trying to treat someone's depression with omega-3 and exercise before you decide to give him Prozac and ruin his life. Let's not sit here and say that doctors concentrate on prevention, because that's just not the case. It worries me that residents like you think that everything is fine in medicine. You choose to claim prevention for the doctors while AMA itself admits that there is not enough concentration on prevention. You have been force-fed too much soothing information by your school. Not everything is potable, you know. You will have to discard that pacifier some day. Just the like the rest of the population, you are vulnerable to being inculcated ideas that are one sided. That's why for you all CAM is the same.

I never said anything about manipulations= prevention or even being useful. I just don't know and I have not seen any conclusive studies one way or another. You don't know much about this either. My point was that as med students/doctors, you have a far bigger fish to fry than chiros. It's just too insignificant compared to the rest of the problems the doctors are facing. To me, that's very egocentric. I am also really surprised that you are the second resident here who just doesn't get it: Motrin (or ibuprofen, as the Tired resident suggested) has likely side effects, especially for long term use. It is NOT designed for long term use. No drug is. Why can't you understand that it is better for the patient to have a massage, manipulation, or whatever else that can prevent the pain just so that she doesn't have to take that drug? It's like saying "take prozac and risk suicide, even though omega-3 might help you too." Can you explain to me which part of natural pain prevention threatens your integrity that you feel that it's better to prescribe your patient something that can cause kidney failure and an entire list of other terrible diseases, even if uncommon? Are you willing to subject your patient to those threats just because you have egocentric feelings about sending your patient to a chiropractor instead? Can you grasp the absurdity of that? If you did that and your patient developed one of the serious side-effects, I'd testify against you myself. As a doctor, you have no right to subject your patient to a more dangerous treatment just because of your personal or religious beliefs. How can you have a shred of integrity if you are willing to play with your patient's life? And then you wonder why people have no respect for the doctors and want to take away their salary.

I asked you a question - what do you think about hypnotherapy. Please don't try to brush it off.

And by the way, you mentioned multivitamins helping back pain in your post. Are you saying that multivitamins have SOME effect? Wow. We may be onto something here because multivitamin=CAM. I'd like you to develop your idea more fully as to what is your hypothesis on multivitamins.


I am not against doctors. If I were, I wouldn't be training to become one. But I often find that too many doctors do not deserve their titles. Throughout my life, I have been mainly exposed to orthodox medicine. I am not your average layman. If after reading a lot of information I have concluded that doctors are not right about CAM, it means one of two things:

1. Some of the CAM indeed can have positive effects and is worthwhile to explore further (most of our drugs were once "CAM")
2. Or that medical doctors have done a terrible job for proving their case to me despite that I have never read any CAM preachings. This still puts doctors at fault and explains why your average layman will be even more inclined to not trust doctors and seek CAM.

A discussion like this required a face-to-face meeting. I think that one way doctors can ameliorate their status is if they address issues like this. There should be a club where doctors meet regularly, discuss issues, and try to take the appropriate action. Those of us who are open minded should lead the rest of the crowd. Anyone feels too far above the group to join the discussion should have some repercussions. I was thinking that patients should be notified about this club and be encouraged to seek only doctors who are members. That's just one idea and I have been seriously thinking about it as one possible solution (trying to avoid the "union" brand). We need to do something to raise the quality of the doctors. Obviously what the docs have been doing over the past decades has NOT been working. The public doesn't have favorable opinions and it translates into loss of respect and salary. Then residents like you get bitter about it, attack irrelevant disciplines, seem arrogant, and the public gets angrier. A vicious circle that is destroying this great discipline. I am still thinking about macgyver's thread before I post a response there. This is a complex issue and your reactions to it make it easier for me to understand the roots of the problem.
 
Panda, I hope you reconsider going into an academic setting. Students could use someone like you for a little balance in what we are being taught.

Balance? Not exactly. And any student who has to rely on being spoon-fed by his instructors will never really be anything but your average doctor. The entire point of the educational system is that the apprentice should surpass the master. Students need a better appreciation of the amazing library system that they have available in the US and the information that can be obtained there. And the teachers you need are not the ones who are pessimistic and choose to force their one sided opinions upon you, but rather the type that encourages you to think for yourself and utilize the vast resources available to you to come to your own conclusions. As it is now, med school is a breeding ground for identical, robotic minds. To honor a class you have to memorize a book. Don't you see something wrong with that picture? I don't see how memorizing loads of facts for a test (which you are going to forget after the test) is going to make you a better doctor.
 
Facet-
1. I openly admit that my n=1 study is in no way shape or form scientific, I just wanted to relay a personal experience.
2. I am curious as to how you would manage a pt. with a herniated disc without a referral to an orthopedist. Would you try "high velocity" manipulation?
3. Panda will not start a blog against me because he really did say those words himself.
4. Show me the research from a respected, peer reviewed journal, with a title that does not contain the words chiropractic, manipulation, or alternative medicine that proves chiropractic is better than placebo for low back pain.
When you do, I'll PM you three articles from NEJM alone that will dispute it. Agree to disagree, I guess. After we do that, do the same thing for manipulation compared to placebo for the treatment of asthma.


5. I will openly admit, here and now, that "orthodox" medicine who you so obviously dislike ...

I'll come back later when time permits to address your other points. But I have to say now that you have misread me on the above. That is simply not true. This thread has gotten a bit long, so it is understandable that you may not have read my earlier posts. I do not dislike medicine at all. I refer to MDs all the time and end up co-treating lots of patients. And, don't forget how I ended up in these forums...I plan to attend medical school!! I hope that clarifies my position on "orthodox" medicine ("orthodox", by the way, was not my term but that of Gordon Waddell in his letter).

...
does not have all of the answers. In fact we have very few answers compared to the amount of information that we do not know. What I do know, however, is that modern chiropractic medicine borders on malpractice when they start treating children for asthma, reject vaccinations, and generally take over primary care for some patients. Other chiros know their purpose, and will only "treat" things that they know will not harm the patient further by not seeking medical attention.
6. As far as your "high veloctiy" manipulation goes, yes I have read about it, no I havent gone to chiropractic school so I'm sure you will dispute what I say here, but the average human being does not contain the strength to move the spine in any significant way, minus neck rotation. And neck rotation at high velocity is bad, but you will probably dispute that also. This will be my last post on this subject on here, but as I am certainly open to debating this further with you please see my blog. I would love to trade off articles, info, what you learned vs. what I am learning, etc to get a better idea about what you are up to in that mysterious world of chiropractic.
 
Just show me the scientific studies. We are NOT investing enough money into alternative healing methods. If you are really going to disagree with me about that, it can only be denial.

Nonsense. The NCCAM has incinerated and continues to incinerate massive amount of cash for what amounts to basically no results. But this doesn't matter to the alties because no amount of negative results will sway them from their religious conviction that CAM "works".

Should we invest some of our limited research dollars into alternative "healing methods" such as this:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl_MHGY1c-o[/YOUTUBE]
 
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Imbibation is not at play here. I don't drink Koolaid. Osmosis - maybe. If you are open minded, you are far more likely to come across data that contradicts your most venerated beliefs. If you call everything quack and snake oil, then you have closed your mind to any extra information outside of your comfort zone. No osmosis can occur. Just like I am open minded about CAM, I am also open minded about what you and others like you have to say. Just show me the scientific studies. We are NOT investing enough money into alternative healing methods. If you are really going to disagree with me about that, it can only be denial.

You, as an ER doc, can't do much about prevention. Nor can a surgeon. By the time you see someone, he/she is in need of some drastic intervention rather than prevention. There are only specific fields that can concentrate on prevention, like FP or IM, though there can be exceptions with some surgeons, such as ENTs, who can, in some situations recommend alternatives to surgery. I know you may not understand this. I'll just give you a simple example - when a patient goes to an ENT because he can't breathe through his nose, the ENT should not automatically recommend surgery to remove excess turbinates. He should suggest alternatives like avoiding situations where the person would be exposed to allergens (maybe he works with trees or pets a lot) or at least refer the person to someone who specializes in allergies. Do you know how many ENTs just cut the crap out of your nose only to discover that it grows back? Well, this is not right. And I don't really care that ENTs only specialize in surgery. They should be aware of simple things like allergies. You cannot cut out an allergy, as one internist said. I know of one particular case where we almost wanted to bring a lawsuit against the doctor - he did three freakin rhinoseptoplasties on the same patient without even ONCE questioning why did it not work. So when I talk about alternatives, I am not talking about just drinking chamomile tea or looking in a crystal to see your future health, but rather starting with the least invasive procedure and working up to the most invasive as a last resort. You have nothing to lose by trying to treat someone's depression with omega-3 and exercise before you decide to give him Prozac and ruin his life. Let's not sit here and say that doctors concentrate on prevention, because that's just not the case. It worries me that residents like you think that everything is fine in medicine. You choose to claim prevention for the doctors while AMA itself admits that there is not enough concentration on prevention. You have been force-fed too much soothing information by your school. Not everything is potable, you know. You will have to discard that pacifier some day. Just the like the rest of the population, you are vulnerable to being inculcated ideas that are one sided. That's why for you all CAM is the same.

I never said anything about manipulations= prevention or even being useful. I just don't know and I have not seen any conclusive studies one way or another. You don't know much about this either. My point was that as med students/doctors, you have a far bigger fish to fry than chiros. It's just too insignificant compared to the rest of the problems the doctors are facing. To me, that's very egocentric. I am also really surprised that you are the second resident here who just doesn't get it: Motrin (or ibuprofen, as the Tired resident suggested) has likely side effects, especially for long term use. It is NOT designed for long term use. No drug is. Why can't you understand that it is better for the patient to have a massage, manipulation, or whatever else that can prevent the pain just so that she doesn't have to take that drug? It's like saying "take prozac and risk suicide, even though omega-3 might help you too." Can you explain to me which part of natural pain prevention threatens your integrity that you feel that it's better to prescribe your patient something that can cause kidney failure and an entire list of other terrible diseases, even if uncommon? Are you willing to subject your patient to those threats just because you have egocentric feelings about sending your patient to a chiropractor instead? Can you grasp the absurdity of that? If you did that and your patient developed one of the serious side-effects, I'd testify against you myself. As a doctor, you have no right to subject your patient to a more dangerous treatment just because of your personal or religious beliefs. How can you have a shred of integrity if you are willing to play with your patient's life? And then you wonder why people have no respect for the doctors and want to take away their salary.

I asked you a question - what do you think about hypnotherapy. Please don't try to brush it off.

And by the way, you mentioned multivitamins helping back pain in your post. Are you saying that multivitamins have SOME effect? Wow. We may be onto something here because multivitamin=CAM. I'd like you to develop your idea more fully as to what is your hypothesis on multivitamins.


I am not against doctors. If I were, I wouldn't be training to become one. But I often find that too many doctors do not deserve their titles. Throughout my life, I have been mainly exposed to orthodox medicine. I am not your average layman. If after reading a lot of information I have concluded that doctors are not right about CAM, it means one of two things:

1. Some of the CAM indeed can have positive effects and is worthwhile to explore further (most of our drugs were once "CAM")
2. Or that medical doctors have done a terrible job for proving their case to me despite that I have never read any CAM preachings. This still puts doctors at fault and explains why your average layman will be even more inclined to not trust doctors and seek CAM.

A discussion like this required a face-to-face meeting. I think that one way doctors can ameliorate their status is if they address issues like this. There should be a club where doctors meet regularly, discuss issues, and try to take the appropriate action. Those of us who are open minded should lead the rest of the crowd. Anyone feels too far above the group to join the discussion should have some repercussions. I was thinking that patients should be notified about this club and be encouraged to seek only doctors who are members. That's just one idea and I have been seriously thinking about it as one possible solution (trying to avoid the "union" brand). We need to do something to raise the quality of the doctors. Obviously what the docs have been doing over the past decades has NOT been working. The public doesn't have favorable opinions and it translates into loss of respect and salary. Then residents like you get bitter about it, attack irrelevant disciplines, seem arrogant, and the public gets angrier. A vicious circle that is destroying this great discipline. I am still thinking about macgyver's thread before I post a response there. This is a complex issue and your reactions to it make it easier for me to understand the roots of the problem.

Your statements are completely naive. If you want to get into medical school, then please don't make these kinds of statements at your interview. ENT's consider allergies as an etiology every day for many of the patients they see. Also, many drugs are indicated for long term use - baby aspirin and statins for example.
 
Nonsense. The NCCAM has incinerated and continues to incinerate massive amount of cash for what amounts to basically no results. But this doesn't matter to the alties because no amount of negative results will sway them from their religious conviction that CAM "works".

Should we invest some of our limited research dollars into alternative "healing methods" such as this:

...

Do you feel compelled to be cynical? I already explained that the alternatives can involve anything from using prescription drugs to avoid surgery or using a supplement to avoid a prescription drug. There are studies out there showing the effectiveness of supplements like omega-3, but unfortunately most of the money is in drug research to try and cure the acquired disease rather than try to prevent the acquisition. And yes, we absolutely must spend whatever we can to discover healthy lifestyles. That is never a waste of money. Look at the big picture: you are saying that there are a lot of sick people out there and therefore we need to spend all our money to find the cures. I am saying it is far more important to invest the money to find prevention. If you look carefully, you'll see that there are no prescription drugs that prevent a disease that you don't already have.

What do you think about hypnotherapy? Avoiding the question?
 
Nonsense. The NCCAM has incinerated and continues to incinerate massive amount of cash for what amounts to basically no results. But this doesn't matter to the alties because no amount of negative results will sway them from their religious conviction that CAM "works".

One of the knocks against CAM is lack of research. So when it became evident that CAM is very popular in the US (I think it was Eisenberg's study that brought this to the forefront a number of years ago), someone at the NIH wisely said 'Hey, maybe we should look into this stuff', and so it began. Now that research is going into CAM, Ginzo and others are complaining about that too. As much as you would love to have it both ways, which is it? Investigate CAM and reach some sound conclusions, or continue to complain that CAM hasn't been researched?

And why does religion always get dragged into this? How does spinal manipulation, for example, have anything to do with religion??
 
Balance? Not exactly. And any student who has to rely on being spoon-fed by his instructors will never really be anything but your average doctor. The entire point of the educational system is that the apprentice should surpass the master. Students need a better appreciation of the amazing library system that they have available in the US and the information that can be obtained there. And the teachers you need are not the ones who are pessimistic and choose to force their one sided opinions upon you, but rather the type that encourages you to think for yourself and utilize the vast resources available to you to come to your own conclusions. As it is now, med school is a breeding ground for identical, robotic minds. To honor a class you have to memorize a book. Don't you see something wrong with that picture? I don't see how memorizing loads of facts for a test (which you are going to forget after the test) is going to make you a better doctor.

I think you should get into med school before you talk about what it is and isn't like.
 
Your statements are completely naive. If you want to get into medical school, then please don't make these kinds of statements at your interview. ENT's consider allergies as an etiology every day for many of the patients they see. Also, many drugs are indicated for long term use - baby aspirin and statins for example.

Thank you. How I wish that you met the patient whose nose was disfigured by repetitive surgery to a point that the excess scar tissue precluded any future reconstruction. Oh, and she still can't breathe through the nose and is finally meeting an allergy specialist who was appalled at her ordeal since it was a simple case of allergy. Maybe not all ENTs are the same, but this ENT was terrible, yet he was from one of the top tier schools. The internist said that he sees a lot of cases where there should not have been a surgery. This means that a lot of ENTs are clueless about allergy - or careless.

Medical school is trying to get people who will care for their patients and perhaps be leaders in their field. If the make up of doctors remains representative of what we see in threads like this, our profession will be doomed. Everyone is pretty much walking all over the doctors and it will only get worse. CRNAs, PAs, RNs... One of us is naive and I am not so sure that it's only me.
 
I think you should get into med school before you talk about what it is and isn't like.

I agree. My information is based on what I have read on SDN and some of the lecture materials at one or two medical schools. But my comment was just general about individual teachers. Just like in undergrad, you have a few teachers who encourage you to think for yourself and explore, and many who just give you a set of facts and expect you to memorize.
 
If the make up of doctors remains representative of what we see in threads like this, our profession will be doomed.

Yes, the profession is doomed indeed if physicians continue to demand strong empirical evidence to support their treatments and advice.
 
Also, many drugs are indicated for long term use - baby aspirin and statins for example.

This is of course true and will continue to be so. However, I think the point is a relative lack of effort going into preventing the need for these lifelong meds in the first place. This is not laying blame at the feet of individual physicians. I think it instead reflects a systemic issue. Let's face it: the healthcare culture today poo-poos anything low tech, inexpensive, non-pharmaceutical, non-surgical and elevates technology, meds and surgery. Much of this is clearly driven by economics and some simply by office logistics (i.e., time constraints).

Until we as a society figure out how to efficiently and effectively combat obesity, Type II diabetes, chronic inflammation and any number of other health-robbing conditions, we will never get ahead of the curve. Again, this is not to say that any one family physician is to blame. It is bigger than that. And, no, it's not as simple as "eat better and exercise more".

There is no choice here, really. It's just a matter of when. Our healtcare system is set to crumble under the financial strain, which will impact other aspects of our lives (if more and more money goes to healthcare, less money goes everywhere else).
 
Thank you. How I wish that you met the patient whose nose was disfigured by repetitive surgery to a point that the excess scar tissue precluded any future reconstruction. Oh, and she still can't breathe through the nose and is finally meeting an allergy specialist who was appalled at her ordeal since it was a simple case of allergy. Maybe not all ENTs are the same, but this ENT was terrible, yet he was from one of the top tier schools. The internist said that he sees a lot of cases where there should not have been a surgery. This means that a lot of ENTs are clueless about allergy - or careless.


It's hard to get someone to understand something when his livelihood depends upon his not understanding it.
 
Until we as a society figure out how to efficiently and effectively combat obesity, Type II diabetes, chronic inflammation and any number of other health-robbing conditions, we will never get ahead of the curve. Again, this is not to say that any one family physician is to blame. It is bigger than that. And, no, it's not as simple as "eat better and exercise more".
.

I have a pretty fail-safe way to prevent obesity, DM, most of the country's hypertension, CAD, peripheral vascular disease, strokes, MI and a host of other conditions. It is a very revolutionary idea that has just come out and that doctors are just learning about. It is called proper diet and an hour of exercise a day.

Frankly you can say whatever you want to about doctors not doing anything in terms of prevention but the impetus that is lacking comes from the patients. Until we can get patients to actually do some exercise and make better choices, a lot of the lifestyle diseases that are so prevalent today are going to continue to get worse.
 
To honor a class you have to memorize a book. Don't you see something wrong with that picture? I don't see how memorizing loads of facts for a test (which you are going to forget after the test) is going to make you a better doctor.

You obviously have not gone to medical school. To honor a class, you must first memorize the book, and then be able to apply that information to a scenario. Very few test questions are just straight memorization of a fact.
 
Yes, the profession is doomed indeed if physicians continue to demand strong empirical evidence to support their treatments and advice.

Ginz, take a look at these then take a guess as to how many patients will still undergo this surgical procedure for this condition over the next month:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/347/2/81

Will it be this evidence or the lack of reimbursement that will reduce this practice?:p Evidence schmevidence!
 
One of the knocks against CAM is lack of research. So when it became evident that CAM is very popular in the US (I think it was Eisenberg's study that brought this to the forefront a number of years ago), someone at the NIH wisely said 'Hey, maybe we should look into this stuff', and so it began. Now that research is going into CAM, Ginzo and others are complaining about that too. As much as you would love to have it both ways, which is it? Investigate CAM and reach some sound conclusions, or continue to complain that CAM hasn't been researched?

And why does religion always get dragged into this? How does spinal manipulation, for example, have anything to do with religion??

Excellent point here. As a long-time practitioner of evidence-based medicine, I largely incorporate techniques and treatments into my practice based on standards of acceptable medical/surgical practice and clinical evidence. I am totally capable of deciding whether something is going to be of benefit to my practice or not of benefit and thus will not be part of that practice. My patients pay me for making these decisions and I spend a great deal of time making sure that they are made with the best and most current information that I can find.

My guess is that many physicians practice as I do and that if they wish to incorporate CAM into their practices, they will make that decision based on evidence and sound clinical judgment. More research would likely make these decisions (to incorporate or not incorporate) more commonplace. The practice of medicine constantly evolves and as an example look at blood sugar management in 1990 versus blood sugar management today. There have been some changes based on clinical evidence.


Imbibation is not at play here. I don't drink Koolaid. Osmosis - maybe. If you are open minded, you are far more likely to come across data that contradicts your most venerated beliefs. If you call everything quack and snake oil, then you have closed your mind to any extra information outside of your comfort zone. [SNIP]

If you (or anyone else) wants to engage in a dialog about any medical practice, you have to learn to ignore opinions and "buzz words" and produce sound clinical evidence for your assertions. To denigrate what others have said doesn't lead credibility to your arguments but achieves quite the opposite.

SDN is a discussion board that is made up of folks who largely post their opinions. This is a good process but at it's best, it's the opinions of folks and as such, should be either accepted or rejected wholly or in some part. I invite you to not attempt to label but to accept or reject based on your experience or lack thereof.

I will post this caveat though for your perusal. Experience is not the best teacher but wisdom is the best teacher. I don't have to experience jumping out of a plane without a parachute to know that things are not going to be good when I hit the ground and that to perform such an action does not show sound judgment on my part. Much the same goes into choosing items to incorporate into my clinical practice. I have to rely on my ability and wisdom to distinguish good research from poor and items that will be good clinical practice from those that are not as such.

Agree to disagree without being disagreeable and continue the dialog. To step back, pull out the points that you wish to respond to with clear and precise rebuttal is far more sound than responding to opinions which like anal openings, are possessed by most people and mean little in the overall scheme of things.
 
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