Question on MCAT and GPA correlation

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PatchAdamsFan

PatchAdamsFan

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I was wondering why many individuals who matriculate into podiatry schools tend to have GPA's between 3.1-3.6, comparable to DO standards and many that I have seen on SDN, yet have MCAT scores in the low 20's, or even lower (exceptions are of course there). I know that personally for me, the MCAT was very reflective of what I learned in my undergraduate classes, and yes I had test anxiety and such, but scored quite highly in regard to podiatry standards. I don't mean to bash the admissions, I am a pre-pod hopeful myself, but I just don't understand how so many students get great grades (A's, B's) yet bomb a standardized test (I heard bad test takers, but how did they get good grades on 100's of tests in schools?).

I don't want this to turn into an MCAT discussion either, but the test itself is challenging, but doable, and the average is around a 24, so I would assume the schools would want to gain students who scored above average on a medical/science-based standardized test. Am I right? Again, many say that podiatry may be a backup, but given good grades and bad MCAT, maybe the undergraduate university practiced severe grade inflation or just didn't teach as well?
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Interesting question and I'm not sure I can help a whole lot but I'm interested in seeing what people say. Grade inflation makes the most logical sense to me, but I k ow many on these forums hate that idea. I went to a decent sized public university and i would say my gpa is very indicative of how much effort I put into courses, but definitely not indicative of what I got out of them. I studied little for the mcat and fell back on what I had learned in the courss, despite not getting stellar grades, and did quite well on the mcat. It does seem odd that students who do so well in undergrad can do poorly on the mcat...especially if they've taken courses covering the various topics in the mcat.
 
On that note, there were talks of pre-pods not studying at all, or minimally, for the MCAT, and that is something that I find to be irresponsible. Why is it that the majority of MD/DO students take prep classes (I'm sure they are not more 'motivated' or fall under more fortunate circumstances, there are all kinds of backgrounds)? I have a job + many hours of research while an undergrad, and still found time to study even 1-2 hours a day for the test. Granted, the material was largely taken out of my undergraduate studies, and I am very thankful for my education. I think that hopefuls need to put as much effort into the MCAT as possible, since it is such a heavily influential determinant of your future medical endeavors (that's a mouthful lol).
 
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Interesting topic.

I would say that you get out of the MCAT what you put into it. The MCAT isn't like normal tests. There are strategies in taking it. Why such low scores and high GPA's? Prep time. Maybe a student took a practice test and got a 24. For an MD/DO applicant that wouldn't be highly competitive so he/she takes an MCAT course so they can get a 30+. Then there is another student who is prepod. The prepod gets a 24 and knows that with that score he/she can get into a program. Why spend oober amounts of dinero and long study hours if you know you can get in? There's not a motive in doing so.

Just the other day I was talking to a study partner who is taking the Altius course for $2000 and studies MCAT material about 3 hours a day. He is scoring mid 30's on his practice tests and wants to get into the high 30's. Why? He has to get a high 30 to get into the school he wants to attend. If pod schools said you have to score a 25 or higher instead of a 20 then there would be a lot higher scores for prepods.
 
The lack of interest and low number of applicants could explain why there's such a difference between avg MCAT for matriculating DO vs DPM. If podiatry schools had the number of students with higher MCAT scores I'm sure their number would be up there as well

Coming from someone with a high GPA (3.64) low MCAT (22), I personally do not know why I did not perform better on the test. Hindsight 20/20 perhaps lack of practice tests when I was preparing (I only completed 5)? I was concerned that my undergrad was guilty of grade inflation so I decided to complete a post bacc/master program just to gauge my capabilities. With a sGPA higher in grad school then undergrad I can clearly rule out grade inflation.

Like I said I don't really have an explaination as to why my MCAT was sub par, and although I would like to know why, I'm not too worried about it now. I've read handful of articles trying to find the best correlation of ones success in med school, and seeing results ranging from MCAT to sGpa to first year anatomy course grade. In essence, the experts can't provide a definitive answer. All I can do now is work my @$$ off for the next 4 years in order to pass my classes and boards, helping me get into my desired recidency. By then the MCAT will be forgotten chaper of my life, and hopefully pod schools have seen a rise in apps where they can increase their MCAT avgs while competely filling their entire classes.

Great discussion thread btw. Interested to see what other ppl have to say.
 
I agree that there is a large amount of time needed to score highly on the MCAT and rightfully so. It is the only standardized test that the medical community has for passage (medically speaking, with all due respect to allied health professions). I feel that it is sort of a catch-22 in that if podiatry schools raised their admissions requirements to DO levels, there would be less students as more would feel safer not going into a concrete field, prestige of being a 'physician', what have you. Unfortunately, you don't see many high scorers go to podiatry school by choice. On the other hand, setting the bar low would always yield a relatively high attrition rate, and at the same time would discredit the admissions as remaining non-competitive (preventing further recognition of the field, which has been steadily growing?). Kind of shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

On top of that, individuals who don't score as highly may be in several groups, including those who sincerely tried, and those who blew it off as not important in admissions, and there is no real way to differentiate the two. A bit of a tangent, but yes I do wish to see how others relate to this.
 
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Robert De Niro said:
The lack of interest and low number of applicants could explain why there's such a difference between avg MCAT for matriculating DO vs DPM. If podiatry schools had the number of students with higher MCAT scores I'm sure their number would be up there as well

Coming from someone with a high GPA (3.64) low MCAT (22), I personally do not know why I did not perform better on the test. Hindsight 20/20 perhaps lack of practice tests when I was preparing (I only completed 5)? I was concerned that my undergrad was guilty of grade inflation so I decided to complete a post bacc/master program just to gauge my capabilities. With a sGPA higher in grad school then undergrad I can clearly rule out grade inflation.

Like I said I don't really have an explaination as to why my MCAT was sub par, and although I would like to know why, I'm not too worried about it now. I've read handful of articles trying to find the best correlation of ones success in med school, and seeing results ranging from MCAT to sGpa to first year anatomy course grade. In essence, the experts can't provide a definitive answer. All I can do now is work my @$$ off for the next 4 years in order to pass my classes and boards, helping me get into my desired recidency. By then the MCAT will be forgotten chaper of my life, and hopefully pod schools have seen a rise in apps where they can increase their MCAT avgs while competely filling their entire classes.

Great discussion thread btw. Interested to see what other ppl have to say.
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interesting...but not uncommon. I did much better in my postBacc than my undergrad classes (different schools, btw). I can attribute it to a) knowing how/wanting to study better b) prioritizing better c) being more mature and knowing how to handle life better d) familiarity with the material/level of detail needed to do well and e) grade inflation... in no specific order. By relating your performance to grade inflation in comparing postBacc and undergrad may not consider the confounding factors I mentioned above.

In the end, the MCAT is like any other test; a test. Of course, more is riding on the MCAT (closer to a 75-100% final exam)...but most students have taken several mock MCAT exams before writing the real thing. How many of us do that for our regular undergrad exams? It's the psychological aspect that messes with us during the test...but that is more about our ability to conquer our own anxieties and not a question of test difficulty, perse. Writing it becomes easier when you realize that your score won't make or break your future, especially in pod.

Test anxiety and individual finances aside, when the avg matriculating MCAT is 21, there is no impetus for scoring higher... but we'll get there:)
 
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In my opinion, I think people know they can get away with a 19-22 MCAT score so they just don't put in the effort, especially IF you have a high GPA. I mean why study and stress yourself over the MCAT when you can go in with minimal preparation and still achieve your goal of getting into podiatry school?

^^Not saying I did that or approve of that behaviour, but I am sure that is the mentaltity that some test takers have.
 
First of all, the mcat is not an easy test... There are a lot of premeds (that I know) from the public university I graduated who have decent science GPA (3.3-3.7) and could not hack a 26+ mcat. This university is not known for grade inflation. The majority of them who could not get a good mcat score had problem getting an 8+ in VR...A couple of them gave up medicine and went to Pharm school and had no problem getting 80+ percentile in the PCAT from what they told me. Overall, the mcat is not impossible if you can hack a 10+ in VR easily because most premed can get a 9+ in both PS and BS.
 
I guess this did turn into an MCAT discussion, but I did want to respond to temperature101's comment. My question stemmed from the fact that podiatry applicants tend to have lower MCAT scores, not premeds in general, and every average subscore is slightly below the national average, not just verbal. On that note, I believe that going blind into the verbal section is somewhat foolish, and at least knowing the question types or taking some practice exams would be highly beneficial. Yes that section is not easy, but is not subjective as people claim, and with careful analysis the answer should come.

I feel strongly about that particular section, because I see many individuals who complain about it not being important and 'stupid' as a rationale for their poor score. I really don't want to sound uncouth, I did not learn English until I was 7 years old (n =1 here), and I managed to do great on the verbal section with practice. For me, that section encompassed more problem-analysis of sorts than even the sciences. And to be clear, 'most premeds' cannot achieve 9+ scores in the sciences either, so there is a fallacy in that logic. One more thing, for a complete critique of your comment (I apologize), the friends that gave up medicine for an MCAT score really have some thinking to do...
 
PatchAdamsFan said:
I guess this did turn into an MCAT discussion, but I did want to respond to temperature101's comment. My question stemmed from the fact that podiatry applicants tend to have lower MCAT scores, not premeds in general, and every average subscore is slightly below the national average, not just verbal. On that note, I believe that going blind into the verbal section is somewhat foolish, and at least knowing the question types or taking some practice exams would be highly beneficial. Yes that section is not easy, but is not subjective as people claim, and with careful analysis the answer should come.
I feel strongly about that particular section, because I see many individuals who complain about it not being important and 'stupid' as a rationale for their poor score. I really don't want to sound uncouth, I did not learn English until I was 7 years old (n =1 here), and I managed to do great on the verbal section with practice. For me, that section encompassed more problem-analysis of sorts than even the sciences. And to be clear, 'most premeds' cannot achieve 9+ scores in the sciences either, so there is a fallacy in that logic. One more thing, for a complete critique of your comment (I apologize), the friends that gave up medicine for an MCAT score really have some thinking to do...
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I was a little bit over the top with that comment that most premeds can get a 9+ in BS/PS...I meant to say most premeds who hacked up a decent science GPA (3.3--3.5) should be able to get at least a 9 in BS/PS with careful preparation. As far as VR not being subjective, I strongly disagree with that assessment...The point I was trying to make from my post was that the MCAT is not an easy test like some of the posters who posted before me were trying to convey. There is a reason why the average is just 24 and we all know that MOST people who make it out of premeds are solid average students (at least at the public school I graduated from).
 
I think one reason for the incongruence between GPA and MCAT isn't necessarily grade inflation, but rather level of competition, which has nothing to do with simply attending a public vs private school. If someone ever did a statistical analysis of GPA vs MCAT scores for each college, we'll most likely see that a 3.1 GPA student from MIT will on average score better on the MCAT than a 3.1 GPA student from some random private liberal arts college.

However, I think the most important cause of this disparity is that undergrad exams are nothing like the MCAT. Most undergrad exams are simply memorize and regurgitate. MCAT places more emphasis on logic/pattern recognition and a person's ability to adapt and synthesize responses to new situations. In fact, most of the information you need to answer the questions are given in the passages. Rather than testing your ability to memorize random facts A, B, and C, the MCAT will give you A, B, and C and then asks why A becomes B in one situation, while A becomes C in another situation.

Undergrad tests "what." MCAT tests "why."
 
poopyhead said:
However, I think the most important cause of this disparity is that undergrad exams are nothing like the MCAT. Most undergrad exams are simply memorize and regurgitate. MCAT places more emphasis on logic/pattern recognition and a person's ability to adapt and synthesize responses to new situations. In fact, most of the information you need to answer the questions are given in the passages. Rather than testing your ability to memorize random facts A, B, and C, the MCAT will give you A, B, and C and then asks why A becomes B in one situation, while A becomes C in another situation.

Undergrad tests "what." MCAT tests "why."
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Wow, I wish I went to your undergrad then. Except for my two Physics and Orgo 2 classes EVERY SINGLE of my biological sciences courses our exams were solely based on the WHY and explain why. While the kids majoring in the Human Bio have the exams that are based on memorization. I understand not all undergrads are the same, but only 3 of my 17 biological sciences classes where I my exams have been based on regurgitating the material given to me. I think for about 9 of these 14 classes most of my exams were more self-taught than teacher taught. What I mean by that is that I have had more classes where over 40% of what is on the exam we have to teach ourselves not what we are taught in class.
My Chem 1&2 classes I had a teacher that it was her first year teaching at Lyman Briggs chem. She was a genius and showed it to us, but the first semester she wasn't that great at explaining it since it was easy to her but difficult to us. Our exams were not multiple choice, it was 60% explain why something would occur and 40% were long hand mathematical reasoning problems. Our exams were 50% what she taught us in class, 40% what the other two teachers taught their class, and the other 10% was read on your own. Then I compared that to the Gen Chem at MSU and theirs was nearly flipped. It was 100% mathematical problems, all multiple choice, and 100% was what they were taught in class! Like I said, every school is different.
But I wish I could take the BioChem 401 class at MSU instead of 461 AND 462 b/c in the one I am NOT taking it is one semester and everything on the exam is a straight forward memorization, while my two semesters of complete HELL is 40% what we learn in class and 60% what we need to read on our own.
 
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at least for me there was a good correlation between gpa and mcat score. My pre-requisite gpa was weak compared to my upper division bio classes. my prereq gpa is probably around the 3.0 ish are and my total gpa for scpa and cum is 3.33. I ended up getting a 26. Realistically I think if one studied really hard breaking 30's and get anywhere between a 30-32 is possible, that is just from my personal experience. I should have studied harder, but for me there was not much motivation due to the fact that I planned on solely applying to pod school. I even choked on my verbal. No offense to people that get below 20's but that is seriously embarrassing. no one should get a score that low after going through almost all of undergrad.

sorry for seeming harsh, but to those that got into pod school with <20 good for you. But this is one of the reasons why most pre-healths don't consider podiatry...it seems like a joke.
 
PatchAdamsFan said:
I was wondering why many individuals who matriculate into podiatry schools tend to have GPA's between 3.1-3.6, comparable to DO standards and many that I have seen on SDN, yet have MCAT scores in the low 20's, or even lower (exceptions are of course there). I know that personally for me, the MCAT was very reflective of what I learned in my undergraduate classes, and yes I had test anxiety and such, but scored quite highly in regard to podiatry standards. I don't mean to bash the admissions, I am a pre-pod hopeful myself, but I just don't understand how so many students get great grades (A's, B's) yet bomb a standardized test (I heard bad test takers, but how did they get good grades on 100's of tests in schools?).

I don't want this to turn into an MCAT discussion either, but the test itself is challenging, but doable, and the average is around a 24, so I would assume the schools would want to gain students who scored above average on a medical/science-based standardized test. Am I right? Again, many say that podiatry may be a backup, but given good grades and bad MCAT, maybe the undergraduate university practiced severe grade inflation or just didn't teach as well?
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I am going to take a different approach to what most of you are saying on here. Not that everyone does is, but the reason why I have a 3.94 GPA and only a 20 on the MCAT is because I thought that since I had a 3.94 GPA I didn't really need to spend time studying for the MCAT. I figured that I obviously spent my time during my undergrad years learning all the material I needed to well and that I knew everything I needed to know. I started "studying" for the MCAT 5 days before I took it, just flipping through some Kaplan books and practicing problems. But like some people have said before, the MCAT isn't like studying for tests, and it isn't necessarily based on knowledge alone. You need to have strategies, which is probably why out of all the different majors of people taking the test, math majors do the best, because they are really good at strategizing to figure out problems. Looking back I would have changed my approach, and I am sure I would have done much better. But the fact that I did so bad doesn't mean I'm stupid or should be incapable of going to Pod school, it just means I should have worked harder ahead of time doing practice problems and strategizing. I think the fact that I have an overall GPA of 3.94 and a science GPA of just below a 4.0 (only 1 A-) shows that I am capable, and that I am not an idiot. So maybe Podiatry is a "joke" to most, but I just think since they have less applicants they are willing to look through a low MCAT score for someone who truly does have potential.
 
I meant no disrespect, or implied that anyone is incapable. I was simply saying that the MCAT is the sole medical/science leverage that schools have when comparing students in an objective fashion. It demands attention. Some students even change their career paths due to a poor score, which is ridiculous in my opinion. What I meant was that given the weight the test holds, it does not make sense to shrug it off without proper preparation, regardless of one's undergraduate success. On a different note, I highly doubt math majors score higher on average than other majors. The strategies you imply are there, but it doesn't take a math major to figure them out, just a good amount of time studying. In addition, between 15-40% of the test is background knowledge depending on the test version. Granted, it is not like other tests, but as all things go, putting in hard effort will ultimately help.
 
Hello
I took kaplan on site as well as online class since May. I have been studying while working full time. My exam is this April however my practice test is not getting any better. I always get the low 20s. please I need help how to study and do this exam right. I dont know what I am doing wrong, I practice a lot and try to study 40 hrs a week despite my full time work. i just took a full length aamc practice test today and got only 18 agsin. the scores are spread as below:
physical section :7
VR : 3
Bio: 8

I would greatly greatly appreciate your help please as my exam is jn less than 2 months. what can I do yo improve? Thank you in advance.
 
XCdpm02259 said:
I am going to take a different approach to what most of you are saying on here. Not that everyone does is, but the reason why I have a 3.94 GPA and only a 20 on the MCAT is because I thought that since I had a 3.94 GPA I didn't really need to spend time studying for the MCAT. I figured that I obviously spent my time during my undergrad years learning all the material I needed to well and that I knew everything I needed to know. I started "studying" for the MCAT 5 days before I took it, just flipping through some Kaplan books and practicing problems. But like some people have said before, the MCAT isn't like studying for tests, and it isn't necessarily based on knowledge alone. You need to have strategies, which is probably why out of all the different majors of people taking the test, math majors do the best, because they are really good at strategizing to figure out problems. Looking back I would have changed my approach, and I am sure I would have done much better. But the fact that I did so bad doesn't mean I'm stupid or should be incapable of going to Pod school, it just means I should have worked harder ahead of time doing practice problems and strategizing. I think the fact that I have an overall GPA of 3.94 and a science GPA of just below a 4.0 (only 1 A-) shows that I am capable, and that I am not an idiot. So maybe Podiatry is a "joke" to most, but I just think since they have less applicants they are willing to look through a low MCAT score for someone who truly does have potential.
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Fortunately podiatry admissions is lax and I understand one not taking the mcat too seriously. For me at least one of things I would like to see is the rise of admission standards. The average for podiatry school MCAT score is less than the national average......I think it would be nice for the new generation to put in a little more effort and bring up the reputation of podiatry. When people ask what your MCAT score is? One is not going to be like yeah that's right I got a ~20......Sure you can justify that with O I did not need to get a high score because I am going to podiatry school. But then that is where the perception of podiatry begins. If students aren't even trying to raise the standards of podiatry then who will.

I'm not trying to bash you or anything. Good luck in Podiatry School. I am sure you will do well and become a great podiatrist regardless of the low MCAT. I also don't consider people that got sub 20 dumb. I just don't think anyone should get a score that low. With effort alone one can get at least mid 20's. The older generation has done so much for us to get podiatry to what it is today, as prospective podiatrist we should help too.
 
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Henri1 said:
Hello
I took kaplan on site as well as online class since May. I have been studying while working full time. My exam is this April however my practice test is not getting any better. I always get the low 20s. please I need help how to study and do this exam right. I dont know what I am doing wrong, I practice a lot and try to study 40 hrs a week despite my full time work. i just took a full length aamc practice test today and got only 18 agsin. the scores are spread as below:
physical section :7
VR : 3
Bio: 8

I would greatly greatly appreciate your help please as my exam is jn less than 2 months. what can I do yo improve? Thank you in advance.
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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8092168

I used this as a guide.
 
Let's not discount the variability in the goals of different tests. The MCAT is both a comprehensive knowledge based test as well as a critical thinking test. Studying for the MCAT is different than studying for an organismic biology exam. I, for one, don't feel that too many of my UG courses emphasized critical thinking skills to a comparable degree to that of the MCAT, but rather focused on acquired knowledge instead. Maybe many undergraduates simply aren't attuned to the type of preparation they need to be doing. I, myself, was limited to about a month of prep time, which is what I attribute my "meh" score to.

I don't know why, but today seems like it's gonna be a great daaaaaaaayyyy...
 
Yes, I highly agree with you both who commented on my post. I didn't mean to get a low score, nor do I want to bring down the reputation of podiatry. I was just explaining my theory on why GPAs and MCAT scores are not as well correlated as they should be. In hind site I would not have worked 3 jobs and I would have worked harder. I know I could have done better, given that I only studied 5 days however, I guess a 20 is ok! Lol
 
I know people who studied for the MCAT in 1 week and scored a 37. Length of time studied =/= understanding of material.
 
Oogieboogie said:
I know people who studied for the MCAT in 1 week and scored a 37. Length of time studied =/= understanding of material.
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Those are likely freakish outliers though and not very typical to the usual MCAT-taker.
 
Good for them! But I'm going to guess their undergrad was a bit more focused on pre-meds and prepping them to do well all throughout school. So they simply did not need to put in extra time. My school has from 5-7 pre-meds a year in a class of 500 (not so much focus on the MCAT).
 
XCdpm02259 said:
Good for them! But I'm going to guess their undergrad was a bit more focused on pre-meds and prepping them to do well all throughout school. So they simply did not need to put in extra time. My school has from 5-7 pre-meds a year in a class of 500 (not so much focus on the MCAT).
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If by some miracle you understand the material in 1 week, then that's just how it is. My point is, there's no "golden" length of time required to study for the MCAT. Knowledge that there is certainly a lot of material to cover will give you a better basis of how much time you will need to study for it. You could probably study for the MCAT in 5 weeks if you devoted a lot of focus towards it and understood everything the first time you passed through it.

It's a critical thinking test, though. A good knowledge base is helpful, but won't get you a 30.
 
Oogieboogie said:
If by some miracle you understand the material in 1 week, then that's just how it is. My point is, there's no "golden" length of time required to study for the MCAT. Knowledge that there is certainly a lot of material to cover will give you a better basis of how much time you will need to study for it. You could probably study for the MCAT in 5 weeks if you devoted a lot of focus towards it and understood everything the first time you passed through it.

It's a critical thinking test, though. A good knowledge base is helpful, but won't get you a 30.
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Not only do u need to learn the material but u will have to apply it and realize the multiple steps required to get the answer within the minimal time per question. Everyone has diff thresholds. My Kaplan instructor told us no one should take the test unless they complete 11 practice tests....that's not realistic bcuz everyone is diff. Find ur pace and prove urself.
 
buBBa15 said:
Not only do u need to learn the material but u will have to apply it and realize the multiple steps required to get the answer within the minimal time per question. Everyone has diff thresholds. My Kaplan instructor told us no one should take the test unless they complete 11 practice tests....that's not realistic bcuz everyone is diff. Find ur pace and prove urself.
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My experience with the MCAT was not like that. I didn't think that the application questions had so many steps that I ran out of time. I took a fair number of practice tests, but I still feel that a student who relies solely on his memory of how to do problems over his ability to analyze problems will struggle with the mcat.
 
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