Question regarding my future and ambition

[ohlawdhecomin]

Hello all! I hope your days are going well. As of August 2022, I have graduated with a biomedical engineering bachelors (B.S.E., GPA: 3.1, sGPA: 2.7~) and I am currently a non-degree seeking master's student this semester to focus on a patent I'm working on while also a few classes, while hopefully working full time in the engineering industry.

My B.S.E. was filled with regret. I split my focus between pre-med and engineering, and ended up doing horribly in both. I dropped pre-med and focused on graduating. Furthermore, I have very recently been diagnosed with depression and ADHD and I have realized it has been something I have been suffering from for a large part of my life. As of now, I'm happy working in industry, but I still want to eventually go to medical school in a few years after I get my Master's and work for some time.

Is this something that I can do? If I decide to apply in 4 years from now, would I need to get another Bachelors/Masters? Would I need new research opportunities to focus on? Furthermore, can I undertake some clinical and non-clinical volunteering and build up the hours over a few years until the year I actually apply?

Thank you for your patience and help.

Attached is my resume if that is of any help:

Hey all! I hope your days are going well. This is a follow-up post from when I made this about 6 months ago. I'm doing alright now. I'm currently applying to a master's program at the moment because it'll be beneficial to my engineering and post-bacc career. I planned to pursue a thesis and seek out research as my priority over the next 3 years while working full time as an engineer. I was wondering if, for grade remediation, I should take upper division undergraduate classes in addition to my biomedical engineering graduate classes in order to show that I am ready for the rigors of medical school.

Furthermore, am I delusional for shooting for the top MD/DO schools? I am trying to re-invent myself, and I have a lot of plans for myself, but I need to know I am not crazy for shooting high. I have a LOT of non-clinical experience tallied up, and I am trying to add clinical experience as well in addition to shadowing. I will study for the MCAT when I am near the end of my graduate school career.

Schools like UCSF, Mayo, MSUCOM, etc, are they out of my reach forever because I had issues out of my control in my undergraduate?

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[ohlawdhecomin]

Hello all! I had a question that I am little embarrassed to ask. I have a couple of schools in mind that are top tier that I really, really want to go to: JHU, Mayo, MSUCOM, etc. However, my undergraduate GPA was abysmal. I had bipolar depression that went unchecked for years that I just got diagnosed with well. I plan on going and completing a master's because I would like to work as an engineer to sustain my med school dreams until I get in.

Grades: Undergrad 3.0; COVID hit and I got a depressive episode that lasted from 2020 to 2022. I am much better now and I have all As in my current semester of non-degree seeking classes. Looking to add a hefty engineering master's and ace that as well as completing a minor in chemistry that will serve as my post-bacc.
Research Experience: About a 1 year of research spread among 2 labs. I couldn't continue due to COVID. I plan to enter a lab for my master's degree.
Clinical Volunteering: I significantly lack this, but I worked through a hospice in my undergraduate career, and I wanted to give my time to work Samaritans Hope, among other things.
MCAT: Will take by the end of my master's career.

There are a few other things I haven't mentioned, but if I ace my post-bacc and graduate studies, will I have a shot at the schools I listed above? They won't be the only ones I apply to, but I feel though that now that I am healthy, I have to give my dream a shot.

 

[deleted1140515]

Are you IS/OOS for MSUCOM (assuming you are referring to Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine).
Have you done any MCAT prep?
Are you willing to go DO? I have found that they are more non trad friendly and holistic in their evaluation of applicants.
JHU and Mayo are both extremely competitive programs. What about other schools, what is your direct pull to those? Do you have any state schools that you would have the IS leverage for?
Clinical experiences are extremely important. I believe that gaining ample clinical experience paid or unpaid may be more beneficial than engineering.

Your ambitions are wonderful, and I wish you all the best on the journey to medical school.

I was just lucky enough to have some success this cycle but have been lurking on here at work for the past year. Definitely see what some of the admissions people have to say that are around on here.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Are you IS/OOS for MSUCOM (assuming you are referring to Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine).
Have you done any MCAT prep?
Are you willing to go DO? I have found that they are more non trad friendly and holistic in their evaluation of applicants.
JHU and Mayo are both extremely competitive programs. What about other schools, what is your direct pull to those? Do you have any state schools that you would have the IS leverage for?
Clinical experiences are extremely important. I believe that gaining ample clinical experience paid or unpaid may be more beneficial than engineering.

Your ambitions are wonderful, and I wish you all the best on the journey to medical school.

I was just lucky enough to have some success this cycle but have been lurking on here at work for the past year. Definitely see what some of the admissions people have to say that are around on here.

I am an Arizona resident, I thought MSUCOM accepted people OOS as well as IS. I am more than willing to go DO, AZCOM is right next door to me. I do not know what you mean by leverage, but I would assume that would mean being IS for an IS school, so I would say yes I do have that for AZ schools.

I know it's really silly, but I attended a conference where my capstone project won an award from the NIH, and I got to see what top schools have to offer, and I am completely hooked. It was like a whole other league of academic research and prestigious, and I hate myself for not being able to change that earlier in my undergraduate career. All I can do is move forward; yes, I want to be a doctor, and I know a doctor from Harvard and a doctor from a lower tier MD school are looked the same with the except of match rates (even then I know competitive residencies get people from all over and it's about how they apply themselves), but it feels like a burning coal in my stomach, it feels like I have to see it through.

I appreciate your advice though. I want to work hard and achieve my goals at the end of the day.

 

[chilly_md]

I have merged your threads regarding your post-bacc and plans on reinvention.

There are certainly big academic research schools that take students who have improved over time. I do not think JHU does, but Mayo, Columbia and Vanderbilt seem like they do. How many credits will your chem minor be? It would be better to obtain 35 credits in upper science classes or pursue an SMP instead of the engineering masters. You will want to get significant clinical experience too as has already been mentioned.

 

[candbgirl]

Your goals are lofty and that can be a good thing. But at some point you have to decide if you want to be a physician or do you want to go to Mayo or JHU. I know you are new to the journey so get some shadowing done and some clinical experiences too. Why are you doing a Masters in Engineering? That’s tough and schools will expect you to do exceptionally well. A post bacc of 2-3 semesters of full time courses focusing on upper level science courses might be a better option. At this point you probably can’t move your GPA much but you can attempt to prove to ADCOMS that you are up to the rigors of med school. You do this by doing exceptionally well in a post bacc. You might also need a SMP but you can decide that after your post bacc.
Good luck as you move forward.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

if you really want to be a doctor, make it your goal to go a respectable medical school, odds are already fairly against you for going to a top school, and ultimately it doesnt make someone a better doctor in the long run

 

[LizzyM]

Taking what you've told us about yourself and your career goals, I'm going to make some suggestions.

Step 1
Do your masters degree and get a job in engineering. Work for a few years as an engineer. Do some volunteering in your community in any role at all that brings you face-to-face with people in distress or who are unable to help themselves due to age (very young or very old), disability, or difficulties with English. Figure on at least 2 hours/wk or 8 hours (1 weekend day) per month for 3 years. Get 50 hours of shadowing experience with physicians who are working in clinical settings (not free clinics where the docs are volunteers -- different vibe from the work-a-day world). Save some cash, you are going to need it.

Step 2
Look into formal post-bac programs. Some are easy to get into, hard to complete. Others are more selective but do less weeding out. Either way, the schools' reputations rest on getting students who complete the program into medical school so they will advise you on clinical experience, volunteering, research, and courses to best position you for med school. Many also write really lovely letters of recommendation that provide a lot of biographical details that you will have spoken to them about but which you might not have room for in your personal statement. A good post-bac is going to take one or two years of full-time enrollment, or a year of enrollment followed by a gap year during which you are applying. Sometimes it can be a part-time year before you quit your job and go full-time.

Step 3
Apply to schools that reward reinvention. Each school knows what it takes to succeed at their school and some schools know that reinventors can do well with the style and pace at their school. Others just don't have the patience/bandwidth for reinventors and we may not like it but give them credit for knowing their limitations.

You have to play the hand you were dealt. You didn't ask to have a chronic illness that wrecked your undergrad GPA but that's your past and you can't change it. It might cut you off from some possible paths that are open to other applicants ; accept the things you cannot change, determine what paths are open to you and how they might be a good fit with your ultimate career goals.

Also consider that many folks say that if you can be happy being something other than a physician, pursue that path because the path to physician licensure is a long and difficult one, take it only if you can't see yourself being satisfied anywhere else.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Furthermore, am I delusional for shooting for the top MD/DO schools

 

[lacrossegirl420]

It’s a bit strange to lump JHU/Mayo and MSUCOM together since they have wildly different goals, is there a particular reason?

 

[cj_cregg]

I am trying to be honest but not rude here: You have several years of application building ahead of you before you will be a competitive candidate for any medical school, let alone a top one. Without an MCAT score and any significant clinical or volunteer experience thus far, and knowing that you probably will be working on those pieces of your application over the next few years, it's hard to say which schools will be worth your while to apply to. I don't think top schools are totally out of the picture if your application becomes stellar from here on out, but it will be a long shot. (Worth noting also...probably a fraction of a percent of medical students really NEED to be at a top school to achieve their career goals.) LizzyM gives you some great advice above.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

I have merged your threads regarding your post-bacc and plans on reinvention.

There are certainly big academic research schools that take students who have improved over time. I do not think JHU does, but Mayo, Columbia and Vanderbilt seem like they do. How many credits will your chem minor be? It would be better to obtain 35 credits in upper science classes or pursue an SMP instead of the engineering masters. You will want to get significant clinical experience too as has already been mentioned.

That is all good to know! I believe my chem minor is about 18 credits. The engineering master's was because there was research I wanted to take part in, and because if I was to work as an engineer in the next few years it'll result in a pay increase that is significant.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

It’s a bit strange to lump JHU/Mayo and MSUCOM together since they have wildly different goals, is there a particular reason?

My understanding was that MSUCOM was a competitive DO school and an established one.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm currently applying to a master's program at the moment because it'll be beneficial to my engineering and post-bacc career. I planned to pursue a thesis and seek out research as my priority over the next 3 years while working full time as an engineer..

OK, there is a lot to unpack here, but let me address the biggest elephant in the room: do you want to be a physician, or do you want to be an engineer? Getting a masters in engineering is a good idea if you want to be an engineer, but it is a complete waste of time if you want to be a physician. Your problem is that your GPA is not congruent with a successful medical school applicant, and this needs to be remediated with hard upper division science courses at the undergraduate level rather than specialized masters-level engineering courses which usually are not counted towards BCPM--so in effect, your time (and money) would be better spent doing a post-bacc to directly address your undergrad GPA.

Admittedly, even if you go directly into a post-bacc, you are likely several years from being ready to apply to medical school, so if you are doing an engineering masters and pursuing a temporary engineering career as a way to make money to eventually apply to med school down the road that may be reasonable. But don't do this masters because you think it will make you competitive for medical school.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Yikes! You picked probably the two greatest "Weed Out" majors there are for high GPAs, and did them simultaneously. Definitely agree with the sage advice above. You are several years away from applying. Seriously prepare for the Mcat, and get that volunteering and service hours going. Grade repair will need to happen also.Another aspect is what kind of doctor do you see yourself becoming? Family Med or something more competitive like Ortho? This might play a part in your application process as you might have better chances at a DO school if you have primary care goals.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Taking what you've told us about yourself and your career goals, I'm going to make some suggestions.

Step 1
Do your masters degree and get a job in engineering. Work for a few years as an engineer. Do some volunteering in your community in any role at all that brings you face-to-face with people in distress or who are unable to help themselves due to age (very young or very old), disability, or difficulties with English. Figure on at least 2 hours/wk or 8 hours (1 weekend day) per month for 3 years. Get 50 hours of shadowing experience with physicians who are working in clinical settings (not free clinics where the docs are volunteers -- different vibe from the work-a-day world). Save some cash, you are going to need it.

Step 2
Look into formal post-bac programs. Some are easy to get into, hard to complete. Others are more selective but do less weeding out. Either way, the schools' reputations rest on getting students who complete the program into medical school so they will advise you on clinical experience, volunteering, research, and courses to best position you for med school. Many also write really lovely letters of recommendation that provide a lot of biographical details that you will have spoken to them about but which you might not have room for in your personal statement. A good post-bac is going to take one or two years of full-time enrollment, or a year of enrollment followed by a gap year during which you are applying. Sometimes it can be a part-time year before you quit your job and go full-time.

Step 3
Apply to schools that reward reinvention. Each school knows what it takes to succeed at their school and some schools know that reinventors can do well with the style and pace at their school. Others just don't have the patience/bandwidth for reinventors and we may not like it but give them credit for knowing their limitations.

You have to play the hand you were dealt. You didn't ask to have a chronic illness that wrecked your undergrad GPA but that's your past and you can't change it. It might cut you off from some possible paths that are open to other applicants ; accept the things you cannot change, determine what paths are open to you and how they might be a good fit with your ultimate career goals.

Also consider that many folks say that if you can be happy being something other than a physician, pursue that path because the path to physician licensure is a long and difficult one, take it only if you can't see yourself being satisfied anywhere else.

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. WHen you say formal post-bacc program, does that mean like an SMP? Or like an extension school. I figured during my master's, the first year or 2 I'd do my post bacc and then the next year or two I'd do a thesis and round myself out.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Yikes! You picked probably the two greatest "Weed Out" majors there are for high GPAs, and did them simultaneously. Definitely agree with the sage advice above. You are several years away from applying. Seriously prepare for the Mcat, and get that volunteering and service hours going. Grade repair will need to happen also.Another aspect is what kind of doctor do you see yourself becoming? Family Med or something more competitive like Ortho? This might play a part in your application process as you might have better chances at a DO school if you have primary care goals.

Thank you for the advice! I apologize, I should have stated in my original post, but I believe I have a decent amount of standard volunteering from my undergraduate time as well as at the moment at my company's ERG, where I am VP.

I like the the work in psychiatry, neurology, and pathology. I have no interest in becoming a surgeon. Furthermore, I like the thought of working in research as well as being a doctor.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

I am trying to be honest but not rude here: You have several years of application building ahead of you before you will be a competitive candidate for any medical school, let alone a top one. Without an MCAT score and any significant clinical or volunteer experience thus far, and knowing that you probably will be working on those pieces of your application over the next few years, it's hard to say which schools will be worth your while to apply to. I don't think top schools are totally out of the picture if your application becomes stellar from here on out, but it will be a long shot. (Worth noting also...probably a fraction of a percent of medical students really NEED to be at a top school to achieve their career goals.) LizzyM gives you some great advice above.

Thank you for the advice! What would I need to do to become "stellar"? Research pubs? Meaningful volunteer experience? What clinical experience would this apply to? I have heard that standard clinical experience is looked down upon as everyone does it.

Furthermore, does an applicant's "story" matter entirely? I have a "brand" as to what I think I could make myself be perceived as, but I do not know if that really matters. I figured what my story could be was that after a rough undergrad, I found meaning in an engineering career and volunteered in mental health/community health/trans-health activities, as I find that meaningful. The research I'd like to partake in in my Master's relates to mental health as well so I believe that could help me there as well.

 

[cj_cregg]

Thank you for the advice? What would I need to do to become "stellar"? Research pubs? Meaningful volunteer experience? What clinical experience would this apply to? I have heard that standard clinical experience is looked down upon as everyone does it.

Furthermore, does an applicant's "story" matter entirely? I have a "brand" as to what I think I could make myself be perceived as, but I do not know if that really matters. I figured what my story could be was that after a rough undergrad, I found meaning in an engineering career and volunteered in mental health/community health/trans-health activities, as I find that meaningful. The research I'd like to partake in in my Master's relates to mental health as well so I believe that could help me there as well.

To be confident that the number of hours alone will not keep you out of any given school, I'd say you need:

• At least 500 hrs clinical work
  • Can be volunteer or paid
  • Should include ~50 hrs shadowing physicians in various specialties/settings
  • "Standard clinical experience" such as MA in a clinic, CNA in a hospital, scribing, EMS, etc. is perfectly fine and acceptable which is exactly why everyone does it. I am not sure what a non-standard clinical experience would be I suppose - there are a limited number of roles that pre-medical students without any healthcare training or certifications would be qualified to do.
• At least 500 hrs volunteering
  • Should be at least 100 hrs nonclinical
  • Bulk should be working directly with underserved patient populations
  • Advocacy work related to your volunteering is a bonus, but not sufficient on its own
  • Shoot for longitudinal experiences, not just a bunch of one-time/short-term events
• Research is a tacit requirement at some schools, particularly higher ranked ones, but is not necessary at the one I review for, so I'll leave it to others to comment on what makes an applicant stand out in that category.

I'd say 100-200 hours in each category is the bare minimum of acceptable. There's a good number of applicants out there with 1000, 2000, or more hours in each of these categories, and that is what I'd consider a stellar applicant. The only clinical or volunteering adjacent experience I see on your resume posted above is the Crohn's/colitis thing - if there's nothing else, that resume would put you in the bottom 5-10% of applicants I've reviewed. (and from what you've said it sounds like there is more that's not on the resume - your mental health/LGBTQ work sounds like a great addition!) You have valuable experiences outside of medicine, but not yet much to show an effort to learn about or gain experience with medicine/patient care which is a necessity.

An applicant's story does matter, and certainly some schools in particular value reinvention and unique backgrounds (Goro has a post on that floating around somewhere). But that is not enough on its own to overcome significant deficits in an application, and as your story has been presented so far, it does not include a compelling narrative of your interest in medicine, which is the most important part. Also but, lots of applicants had rough undergrads, and lots of applicants come from an engineering background - neither of those things are particularly unique in a way that would be likely to pique a reviewer's interest.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

To be confident that the number of hours alone will not keep you out of any given school, I'd say you need:

• At least 500 hrs clinical work
  • Can be volunteer or paid
  • Should include ~50 hrs shadowing physicians in various specialties/settings
  • "Standard clinical experience" such as MA in a clinic, CNA in a hospital, scribing, EMS, etc. is perfectly fine and acceptable which is exactly why everyone does it. I am not sure what a non-standard clinical experience would be I suppose - there are a limited number of roles that pre-medical students without any healthcare training or certifications would be qualified to do.
• At least 500 hrs volunteering
  • Should be at least 100 hrs nonclinical
  • Bulk should be working directly with underserved patient populations
  • Advocacy work related to your volunteering is a bonus, but not sufficient on its own
  • Shoot for longitudinal experiences, not just a bunch of one-time/short-term events
• Research is a tacit requirement at some schools, particularly higher ranked ones, but is not necessary at the one I review for, so I'll leave it to others to comment on what makes an applicant stand out in that category.

I'd say 100-200 hours in each category is the bare minimum of acceptable. There's a good number of applicants out there with 1000, 2000, or more hours in each of these categories, and that is what I'd consider a stellar applicant. The only clinical or volunteering adjacent experience I see on your resume posted above is the Crohn's/colitis thing - if there's nothing else, that resume would put you in the bottom 5-10% of applicants I've reviewed. (and from what you've said it sounds like there is more that's not on the resume - your mental health/LGBTQ work sounds like a great addition!) You have valuable experiences outside of medicine, but not yet much to show an effort to learn about or gain experience with medicine/patient care which is a necessity.

An applicant's story does matter, and certainly some schools in particular value reinvention and unique backgrounds (Goro has a post on that floating around somewhere). But that is not enough on its own to overcome significant deficits in an application, and as your story has been presented so far, it does not include a compelling narrative of your interest in medicine, which is the most important part. Also but, lots of applicants had rough undergrads, and lots of applicants come from an engineering background - neither of those things are particularly unique in a way that would be likely to pique a reviewer's interest.

Ok I'm so sorry I'm reading this but I realized I put a question mark at "thanks for the advice" instead of an exclamation point in my original reply to you so I wanted to apologize for sounding rude before saying anything else.

 

[chilly_md]

To add to cj_cregg’s insight, the 100-200 minimums are for candidates with strong stats right out of the gates (and they likely had 1000 hours of research). Reinventors need quite a bit more hours of clinical experience and service to those less fortunate. And while there are ranges for the MCAT, a reinventor will need higher scores to make up for past struggles and prove they are ready for med school. See Goro’s guide for more details:

Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that. So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling. But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

To be confident that the number of hours alone will not keep you out of any given school, I'd say you need:

• At least 500 hrs clinical work
  • Can be volunteer or paid
  • Should include ~50 hrs shadowing physicians in various specialties/settings
  • "Standard clinical experience" such as MA in a clinic, CNA in a hospital, scribing, EMS, etc. is perfectly fine and acceptable which is exactly why everyone does it. I am not sure what a non-standard clinical experience would be I suppose - there are a limited number of roles that pre-medical students without any healthcare training or certifications would be qualified to do.
• At least 500 hrs volunteering
  • Should be at least 100 hrs nonclinical
  • Bulk should be working directly with underserved patient populations
  • Advocacy work related to your volunteering is a bonus, but not sufficient on its own
  • Shoot for longitudinal experiences, not just a bunch of one-time/short-term events
• Research is a tacit requirement at some schools, particularly higher ranked ones, but is not necessary at the one I review for, so I'll leave it to others to comment on what makes an applicant stand out in that category.

I'd say 100-200 hours in each category is the bare minimum of acceptable. There's a good number of applicants out there with 1000, 2000, or more hours in each of these categories, and that is what I'd consider a stellar applicant. The only clinical or volunteering adjacent experience I see on your resume posted above is the Crohn's/colitis thing - if there's nothing else, that resume would put you in the bottom 5-10% of applicants I've reviewed. (and from what you've said it sounds like there is more that's not on the resume - your mental health/LGBTQ work sounds like a great addition!) You have valuable experiences outside of medicine, but not yet much to show an effort to learn about or gain experience with medicine/patient care which is a necessity.

An applicant's story does matter, and certainly some schools in particular value reinvention and unique backgrounds (Goro has a post on that floating around somewhere). But that is not enough on its own to overcome significant deficits in an application, and as your story has been presented so far, it does not include a compelling narrative of your interest in medicine, which is the most important part. Also but, lots of applicants had rough undergrads, and lots of applicants come from an engineering background - neither of those things are particularly unique in a way that would be likely to pique a reviewer's interest.

Ok I read through this entire post and I really appreciate the insight! Maybe this is a stupid question, but what's stopping me from say quitting my job in the future, and working for 6 months straight in a clinical experience full time, same goes for volunteering.

I apologize for what I said earlier. I thought that my Outreach committee work would count as non-clinical volunteering. I currently joined an outreach committee for trans students on my university campus thinking it was meaningful and could provide outreach experience/volunteering.

I'll have to give serious consideration to my personal story based on what you've said, and I believe that can only be answered fully after shadowing and significant clinical experience.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

To add to cj_cregg’s insight, the 100-200 minimums are for candidates with strong stats right out of the gates (and they likely had 1000 hours of research). Reinventors need quite a bit more hours of clinical experience and service to those less fortunate. And while there are ranges for the MCAT, a reinventor will need higher scores to make up for past struggles and prove they are ready for med school. See Goro’s guide for more details:

Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that. So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling. But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take...

forums.studentdoctor.net

I understand, thank you for the advice! Stats such as a 4.0 in grad school as well as a 4.0 in a post-bacc over say 36 hours with at least a 513 on the MCAT be ok?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but what's stopping me from say quitting my job in the future, and working for 6 months straight in a clinical experience full time, same goes for volunteering.

In the end, it's up to you.

I thought that my Outreach committee work would count as non-clinical volunteering. I currently joined an outreach committee for trans students on my university campus thinking it was meaningful and could provide outreach experience/volunteering.

I read your posts from the start. I don't see where you discuss this in great detail. What does it mean that you are part of an outreach committee?

I'll have to give serious consideration to my personal story based on what you've said, and I believe that can only be answered fully after shadowing and significant clinical experience.

Exactly.

 

[chilly_md]

I understand, thank you for the advice! Stats such as a 4.0 in grad school as well as a 4.0 in a post-bacc over say 36 hours with at least a 513 on the MCAT be ok?

Yes, that would put MD schools back on the table.

 

[cj_cregg]

Ok I read through this entire post and I really appreciate the insight! Maybe this is a stupid question, but what's stopping me from say quitting my job in the future, and working for 6 months straight in a clinical experience full time, same goes for volunteering.

I apologize for what I said earlier. I thought that my Outreach committee work would count as non-clinical volunteering. I currently joined an outreach committee for trans students on my university campus thinking it was meaningful and could provide outreach experience/volunteering.

I'll have to give serious consideration to my personal story based on what you've said, and I believe that can only be answered fully after shadowing and significant clinical experience.

Nothing's stopping you from doing quitting your job and doing this for 6 months (then applying immediately afterward I'm assuming you mean?), and I'm sure you could rack up lots of hours doing so. But most applicants will have these hours spread out over multiple years, which from an admissions perspective, shows a long-term commitment to the field rather than a spur-of-the-moment decision, and from a making sure you really want to do this perspective, helps you ensure you're making the right decision as well.

I think depending on what you are doing the outreach committee could count as nonclinical volunteering or potentially as leadership or advocacy. If you're volunteering your time to mentor/work directly with trans students who are struggling, I'd call that more nonclinical volunteering. If you are working at more of a "big picture" level to educate your university community about trans issues and implement policies and changes to make it a more welcoming place for trans folks, I'd say more advocacy/leadership.

And yes - shadowing/clinical experience will not only help your application, it will also help you confirm whether medicine is the right thing for you before you embark on a six figure, 7+ year investment of your money, time, and well-being!

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

In the end, it's up to you.

I read your posts from the start. I don't see where you discuss this in great detail. What does it mean that you are part of an outreach committee?

Exactly.

So my position was Outreach Lead for the BMES club on campus. I coordinated volunteer events, presentations, and helped get university students involved in teaching high school kids about why they should be biomedical engineers. We helped promote innovative thinking through events similar to university classes (build your own medical device, etc).

The senior ambassador position was just me giving tours on campus to prospective students and volunteering at high schools to promote engineering.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Nothing's stopping you from doing quitting your job and doing this for 6 months (then applying immediately afterward I'm assuming you mean?), and I'm sure you could rack up lots of hours doing so. But most applicants will have these hours spread out over multiple years, which from an admissions perspective, shows a long-term commitment to the field rather than a spur-of-the-moment decision, and from a making sure you really want to do this perspective, helps you ensure you're making the right decision as well.

I think depending on what you are doing the outreach committee could count as nonclinical volunteering or potentially as leadership or advocacy. If you're volunteering your time to mentor/work directly with trans students who are struggling, I'd call that more nonclinical volunteering. If you are working at more of a "big picture" level to educate your university community about trans issues and implement policies and changes to make it a more welcoming place for trans folks, I'd say more advocacy/leadership.

And yes - shadowing/clinical experience will not only help your application, it will also help you confirm whether medicine is the right thing for you before you embark on a six figure, 7+ year investment of your money, time, and well-being!

So then it'd be far better to do it slowly over time, especially over my master's. Got it. That makes sense.

The outreach committee was more of nonclinical volunteering, but I led students and helped guide meetings, so I assumed it would be both.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

So then it'd be far better to do it slowly over time, especially over my master's. Got it. That makes sense.

The outreach committee was more of nonclinical volunteering, but I led students and helped guide meetings, so I assumed it would be both.

So Outreach Committee doesn't fulfill Service Orientation. It promotes STEM Careers which is an extension of social responsibility in science. Thus it can be an academic competency.

 

[LizzyM]

With a science GPA of < 3.0, you would need to do a post-bac, meaning a program of undergraduate coursework completed after the bachelor's degree is awarded.
AAMC has a list: Postbaccalaureate Programs

The schools are in the business of getting career changers into medical school. If you have an MS in engineering, work a few years as an engineer and still want to pursue medicine, you could legitimately call yourself a career changer, repeat the pre-med requirements and if you do very well with those classes and the MCAT, you could be considered a reinventor and a non-traditional student.

The work on campus and with HS students to promote biomed engineering as well as the work around trans-rights could be considered leadership or something along those lines.... I wouldn't consider it "volunteer, non-clinical". For that we continue to sing the same song of getting off campus, outside the educational system and into community situations with people who are too poor, too old, too young, etc to do for themselves.

 

[KaiBuzz]

If you still live in AZ, your time would be better spent doing clinical research at Mayo, volunteering at a free clinic, and taking postbacc classes at ASU. ASU may still offer students and alums access to free or discounted Princeton Review MCAT courses.

Pre-Medical (M.D.) Pathway | Pre-Health Advising

Pre-health advising You are encouraged to meet with a pre-health advisor at least once a semester to discuss options for careers in medicine, opportunities to gain relevant experience, discussing the best time to apply, preparation for the MCAT, t

prehealth.asu.edu

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

With a science GPA of < 3.0, you would need to do a post-bac, meaning a program of undergraduate coursework completed after the bachelor's degree is awarded.
AAMC has a list: Postbaccalaureate Programs

The schools are in the business of getting career changers into medical school. If you have an MS in engineering, work a few years as an engineer and still want to pursue medicine, you could legitimately call yourself a career changer, repeat the pre-med requirements and if you do very well with those classes and the MCAT, you could be considered a reinventor and a non-traditional student.

The work on campus and with HS students to promote biomed engineering as well as the work around trans-rights could be considered leadership or something along those lines.... I wouldn't consider it "volunteer, non-clinical". For that we continue to sing the same song of getting off campus, outside the educational system and into community situations with people who are too poor, too old, too young, etc to do for themselves.

Thank you for the advice! I have a few questions regarding this.

Why can't I do my MS in engineering at the same time as a post bacc and make my master's 3 years while volunteering when I can? After completing that, I start an engineer job and volunteer and also study for the MCAT then? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I thought that would be ok to do as well and i would still be considered nontrad.

Furthermore, could a DIY post-bacc work as well at my state school, as that is incredibly cheap? I do not know if i could afford a traditional out of state post-bacc.

 

[LizzyM]

Do as you please. I've mapped out a way that you can work as an engineer and then go on to reinvent yourself as a career changer, have a do-over of your pre-med requirements and get a 4.0 (what you'll need to show that you've grown and changed since your undergrad days and know how to study and do well in the natural sciences) and get a track record in community service to convince the adcom that you want to "help people".

If you think that you can get a 4.0 in the pre-med courses while doing a masters in engineering, good for you. You are going to get what you pay for and a DIY post-bac at a state school is not going to come with the referrals to extracurricular activities, mock interviews, and the LOR that is what makes the successful post-bac programs so successful.

If you are willing to pay (or borrow and pay later) for 4 years of medical school, consider your predicament to be one where you need to actually pay for 5 years of medical school and the post-bac is that 5th year.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Do as you please. I've mapped out a way that you can work as an engineer and then go on to reinvent yourself as a career changer, have a do-over of your pre-med requirements and get a 4.0 (what you'll need to show that you've grown and changed since your undergrad days and know how to study and do well in the natural sciences) and get a track record in community service to convince the adcom that you want to "help people".

If you think that you can get a 4.0 in the pre-med courses while doing a masters in engineering, good for you. You are going to get what you pay for and a DIY post-bac at a state school is not going to come with the referrals to extracurricular activities, mock interviews, and the LOR that is what makes the successful post-bac programs so successful.

If you are willing to pay (or borrow and pay later) for 4 years of medical school, consider your predicament to be one where you need to actually pay for 5 years of medical school and the post-bac is that 5th year.

I understand completely. Thank you for what you said. I'll follow your advice and get my master's, work for a bit, then re-invent. Are there any things I should do that can help me in my master's that would aid me in the long term?

 

[LizzyM]

I understand completely. Thank you for what you said. I'll follow your advice and get my master's, work for a bit, then re-invent. Are there any things I should do that can help me in my master's that would aid me in the long term?

Build your study skills. Establish or join study groups, try Anki decks, go to office hours, try teaching others the material to help you get a better grip on it.

 

[ohlawdhecomin]

Build your study skills. Establish or join study groups, try Anki decks, go to office hours, try teaching others the material to help you get a better grip on it.

Sounds good! Thank you very much for your time and help!