Questions about becoming an applicant, changing from wanting to go to graduate school

[MolecularCatalyst]

Hello,

I am currently a 5th year senior that will be graduating with a BS in Chemistry from a large public school. My first two years at University were a disaster. I didn’t know what I wanted to do and I was a pretty bad student. I also had a couple of tragedies at home (deaths and illnesses), which caused me to get a bunch of W’s my second year, I also failed two athletics classes.

However, I found a great mentor and chemistry Professor that took me under his wing and welcomed me into his research lab. I applied to 20 labs because I took a seminar on research and was interested in pursuing it. No one responded expect that one new professor who took a chance with me. The research involved Bio-inorganic chemistry. It wasn’t related to medicine, but it did inspire me to look more into biological sciences, and then towards medicine.

We did some great work and I got a couple of publications in some decent journals, and I went from a 3.3 GPA to straight A’s, taking graduate and high-level chemistry, physics, and math courses to prepare me for graduate school, but my GPA hit a limit of 3.6998. Almost every semester I took 18 - 19 credits during that time, along with heavy research in the lab.

I was thinking about applying to Ph.D programs, but I started looking into MD and MD / Ph.D programs, and it seems that those are something that I would like to do. That feeling was only strengthened when I decided to do some volunteering at the hospital and with a Physician that helps pregnant women with substance abuse.

I haven’t started studying for the MCAT, nor do I have much volunteering experience, but I figured I’d have to take what they call a “gap year,“ which is fine. I think that I could study for the MCAT, volunteer, and maybe shoot out another publication or two, or use my connections in the Chemistry department to find a more medically relevant chemical research.

Sorry to ramble, but I basically have three questions, if my research isn’t strictly dealing with medicine (more with energy and catalysts), could that be looked differently upon by the admissions council? Also, do my W’s and F’s in my first year hurt me in the long term? And finally, does taking that long to graduate also hurt me?

Thanks and best,

Feel free to ask any additional questions

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[NickNaylor]

No, any research is beneficial, particularly if you got publications out of it and were substantively involved in the work, which it sounds like you were.

A 3.7 is par for the course for successful applicants. I would be less worried about that, particularly if you did well after the first two years.

I would caution you and say that MD/PhD programs are generally pretty competitive because of the limited number of spots and the perceived benefits of those programs (i.e., free training). I would also say that you should seriously consider your career goals and what you actually want to accomplish. You may find that a combined degree is unnecessary and a complete waste of time when a single degree - either MD or PhD - will do. I've met multiple folks - both classmates in medical school and current residents - who have seriously regretted their decision to pursue a combined degree. It sounds like a great idea, and, of course, the cost of zero is a hard bargain to turn down, but understand that the PhD takes a significant amount of time. By the time you graduate from medical school your peers will either be senior residents or possibly even practicing attendings.

If you want to see patients in a clinical setting, then going to medical school is a necessity. I think the question becomes, how much research do you want to do? Do you want to do some research on the side? Do you want to run your own lab? Do you want to do basic science work or more clinically oriented work? Answering these questions will help you explore what is actually "necessary" for your training. The major cost of a combined MD/PhD program is your precious, precious time. Personally, I don't think anyone should do it unless they have fairly specific goals and a combined program is necessary to achieving those goals. I've met too many people that burned out during the training and now have very little intention of doing research after starting residency. Certainly there are benefits with respect to going through the process, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[MolecularCatalyst]

No, any research is beneficial, particularly if you got publications out of it and were substantively involved in the work, which it sounds like you were.

A 3.7 is par for the course for successful applicants. I would be less worried about that, particularly if you did well after the first two years.

I would caution you and say that MD/PhD programs are generally pretty competitive because of the limited number of spots and the perceived benefits of those programs (i.e., free training). I would also say that you should seriously consider your career goals and what you actually want to accomplish. You may find that a combined degree is unnecessary and a complete waste of time when a single degree - either MD or PhD - will do. I've met multiple folks - both classmates in medical school and current residents - who have seriously regretted their decision to pursue a combined degree. It sounds like a great idea, and, of course, the cost of zero is a hard bargain to turn down, but understand that the PhD takes a significant amount of time. By the time you graduate from medical school your peers will either be senior residents or possibly even practicing attendings.

If you want to see patients in a clinical setting, then going to medical school is a necessity. I think the question becomes, how much research do you want to do? Do you want to do some research on the side? Do you want to run your own lab? Do you want to do basic science work or more clinically oriented work? Answering these questions will help you explore what is actually "necessary" for your training. The major cost of a combined MD/PhD program is your precious, precious time. Personally, I don't think anyone should do it unless they have fairly specific goals and a combined program is necessary to achieving those goals. I've met too many people that burned out during the training and now have very little intention of doing research after starting residency. Certainly there are benefits with respect to going through the process, but it's something to keep in mind.

Thank you for the quick response! I am very thankful for your response. The unhelpful pre-health advisor recommended the MD / PhD to me after I told him I had a couple publications.

I think what my goal would be to publish from time to time at an academic hospital, I was thinking something in translational medicine, but honestly I'm not sure. I'm also not sure of the specialty, and if it was a longer one, I wouldn't want to finish it in my late 30s!

 

[NickNaylor]

Thank you for the quick response! I am very thankful for your response. The unhelpful pre-health advisor recommended the MD / PhD to me after I told him I had a couple publications.

I think what my goal would be to publish from time to time at an academic hospital, I was thinking something in translational medicine, but honestly I'm not sure. I'm also not sure of the specialty, and if it was a longer one, I wouldn't want to finish it in my late 30s!

Then in that case, a PhD would not be strictly necessary. Beneficial? Sure, almost certainly. But is it worth the additional time - at least 3 years, possibly 5-7 depending upon your work - is a question you'll need to sort out.

 

[LizzyM]

Through your current academic institution or through your school's alumni office, or through your PI or any way you can, you should try to find a practicing MD/PhD to talk with/shadow to get a better idea of that career trajectory. Ditto MD-only docs.
The type of research you've done matters less than the skills you've acquired. I don't know enough about chemistry or biochem, or medicinal chem etc to know if there are specific skills at the bench that are transferable but that would be your selling point at schools with MSTP (medical scientist training programs) or other MD/PhD programs with a focus on chemistry.
http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/Pages/PredocOverview-MSTP.aspx

 

[MolecularCatalyst]

Then in that case, a PhD would not be strictly necessary. Beneficial? Sure, almost certainly. But is it worth the additional time - at least 3 years, possibly 5-7 depending upon your work - is a question you'll need to sort out.

I see, thank you for the advice! I will have to do some hard thinking about that. Also, is it possible to apply for the MD / PhD program and the MD program jointly?

Through your current academic institution or through your school's alumni office, or through your PI or any way you can, you should try to find a practicing MD/PhD to talk with/shadow to get a better idea of that career trajectory. Ditto MD-only docs.
The type of research you've done matters less than the skills you've acquired. I don't know enough about chemistry or biochem, or medicinal chem etc to know if there are specific skills at the bench that are transferable but that would be your selling point at schools with MSTP (medical scientist training programs) or other MD/PhD programs with a focus on chemistry.
http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/Pages/PredocOverview-MSTP.aspx

I will definitely do that! And I believe that the skills I've learned in lab (I've taken all the chemistry labs offered at my school) and research (use of instrumentation, synthesis, etc.) would translate well from what I've seen stalking MD / PhD research profiles. I think the best skill I learned was independence. Even as an undergraduate, my PI was very hands off after he showed me around. He would just say synthesize this, run this reaction, etc. where a lot of the other labs in my department had the students do very trivial things.

 

[NickNaylor]

I see, thank you for the advice! I will have to do some hard thinking about that. Also, is it possible to apply for the MD / PhD program and the MD program jointly?

Yes, and most programs that I know of will automatically consider you for the MD-only program if you apply to the MD/PhD program, though I'm sure there are some exceptions.

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, and most programs that I know of will automatically consider you for the MD-only program if you apply to the MD/PhD program, though I'm sure there are some exceptions.

Don't count on getting your MD/PhD application considered for MD only. The schools tell you this but by the time the MD/PhD has reviewed your application and said, "no thank you" it is New Year's Eve and you are too late to the party to get an interview. Also, the MD adcoms figure you want MD/PhD and will throw them over if you get even one MD/PhD offer so why should you be their safety.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Agree with what @LizzyM said about the timeline. If schools will cinsider you for MD only, you get to that point way late in the season.