Questions about fellowship and the speciality

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brainmedicine

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Hi,
I have some questions regarding fellowship and specialty
1- How hard to go to Pain, Sleep and brain injury after residency?
2-What about Neuropsychiatry? What will be the field of practice and pay
3-Do PSych physicians still do some primary care, like depression and hypertension? Are we still involved in the medicine aspect of only the mental side of it
4- I heard some went to neuropsysiology fellowship? Is it doable

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1) you can definitely do all three as you mentioned... However pain will be difficult as psych, it can be done..but you will be a minority in the field, will probably need to do some good research and develop strong connections with anesthesia in order to match somewhere.

2) Neuropsych= dementia, TBI, predominantly

3) psych doesnt manage anything outside of mental illness primarily. But if you do C/L, you can get involved with psych patients that have many other medical co-morbidities.

4) not sure how that's applicable to psych.
 
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Thanks, I am comparing primary care vs Psych and not sure. I applied to psych and primary care... In case I want to switch after PGY1, is it easy to do it the one way or the other?
 
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IM to psych for sure. Not sure about the other way around. That 6 months of psych during PGY1 may put you behind the schedule for finishing on time, but someone more knowledgeable than me can comment.
 
C/L is consult-liasion, meaning that you do psychiatric consultations in an inpatient medical hospital to determine if there's a psychiatric component to someone's medical illness.

As to your other questions, I don't know how any psychiatrist can qualify for a neurophysiology fellowship. Neurophysiology is EMG/nerve conduction studies and EEGs/seizures. This is 100% neurology, not psychiatry. Unless you do a combined neurology/psychiatry resident, I have a hard time believing you could do such a fellowship.

Yes, you can switch from IM or FM into psych (though it's harder than matching psych outright). But switching from psych into IM or FM might be a bit trickier, depending on how far into residency you make the switch.
 
Thanks what about the possibility of matching into pain Or sleep med fellowships?
 
Pain and sleep are pretty open - but there will be limited jobs in this area. You could combine addictions with pain and offer an interesting practice scope in that sense.
 
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Thanks, what about neuropsychiatry fellowship? Can then one practice as a neuropsychiatry like seeing Parkinson's, Tourette ...etc
 
If you do a combined residency in neurology and psychiatry, you will be board-certified in both and you can see both neurology cases and psychiatry cases and cases that overlap. If you do a fellowship in neuropsychiatry, you will gain knowledge in the overlap between the two and yes, you can see Parksinon's patients, but you would be treating the psychiatric/dementia component of their disease, not the neurological aspects of it.
 
Thanks, my question is regarding the intergration of biological medicine and behavioral med. Let's say a depressed patient with Parkinson, can you refill cardio-dopa/levodopa

Alzheimer disease with conjunctivitis can you order an eye ointment...or in these cases you refer him to a PCP?
 
Once you do finish med school, do residency, and get a full medical license, you can do anything you want. You just won't be legally covered should something bad happen if it's outside your expertise. No one is going to go to a psychiatrist to manage their CHF. Can a psychiatrist do it? Those who've held on to their medicine could, sure. Should they? No. With Parkinson's, it's a little different because the disease itself has psychiatric components. But if you're asking if you should manage a patient's Parkinson's as a psychiatrist, my answer would be not unless you've had a lot more exposure to neurology than the two months you're required to do during a psych residency.
 
IM to psych for sure. Not sure about the other way around. That 6 months of psych during PGY1 may put you behind the schedule for finishing on time, but someone more knowledgeable than me can comment.

It's becoming harder to do this every year. My whole academic institution covering multiple residency locations will not take transfers from IM any longer.
 
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Thanks, did anybody from your residency program switch to another speciality?
 
Thanks, did anybody from your residency program switch to another speciality?

Not from my program, but funding wise it is possible. Remember that the field you initially match into sets your major funding for life. Match psych and you get 4 years. If you leave psych after year 1, you still get 3 years left for IM. Match IM and you can never get full funding for psych. This is what kills matching at my program. Other programs may take you with less funding, but this is slowly decreasing. IMG's with barely passing boards would be taken over an IM transfer who was AOA with 250 boards at my program due to funding. If you want to transfer you of neurosurgery, you still have funding everywhere. :)
 
Bearing in mind you'd be getting an Australian point of view, my Psychiatrist is one of the co-ordinators for the study of Neurosciences here in South Australia and also subspecialises in Neuropsychiatry (his primary practice is Advance Adult Psychiatry/Psychotherapy). I won't be seeing him for another couple of weeks, but if you have any specific questions about Neurosciences/Neuropsychiatry I could see if he'd be willing to answer them for you (although I can't actually guarantee a response seeing as his workload is such that he's often not able to respond to non therapy related emails and he does tend to be a tad forgetful when he's got a metric f**k tonne of other work to get through - I can at least try for you though).
 
Reading this, I'm surprised that we are taking about switching form one specialty to another even before brainmedicine matched to anything.

C/L is consult-liasion, meaning that you do psychiatric consultations in an inpatient medical hospital to determine if there's a psychiatric component to someone's medical illness.

As to your other questions, I don't know how any psychiatrist can qualify for a neurophysiology fellowship. Neurophysiology is EMG/nerve conduction studies and EEGs/seizures. This is 100% neurology, not psychiatry. Unless you do a combined neurology/psychiatry resident, I have a hard time believing you could do such a fellowship.

Yes, you can switch from IM or FM into psych (though it's harder than matching psych outright). But switching from psych into IM or FM might be a bit trickier, depending on how far into residency you make the switch.

Also, you can apply into clinical neurophysiology as a psychiatrist, it is not 100% neurology at all. See the abpn website: (lower left hand side shows the fellowships available, including neurophysiology) http://www.abpn.com ; But seriously, reading this, I am not getting the sense brainmedicine is not interested in psychiatry. Maybe I'm wrong.. I hope brainmedicine understands what psychiatry is all about. There are combined IM/Psych and Family/Psych programs also. Good luck with whatever you go into. -E
 
I am very interested in Psych... but I love general medicine as well, I do not want to loose the ability of practicing primary care with Psych. I am kinda of doubt.

Let us see what match day brings.
 
I know of a resident who made the switch from psychiatry to IM after PGY1. She left a California program and matched into an IM midwest program. She had to start over though. So it can be done.

(I also know of an IM resident who, after her PGY1 year, matched into a competitive psych residency in CA as a PGY2.)
 
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Also, you can apply into clinical neurophysiology as a psychiatrist, it is not 100% neurology at all. See the abpn website: (lower left hand side shows the fellowships available, including neurophysiology) http://www.abpn.com

I can't imagine there are many neurophysiology fellowships looking for psychiatrists. EMGs and EEGs seem way more suited towards neurologists than psychiatrists.
 
I can't imagine there are many neurophysiology fellowships looking for psychiatrists. EMGs and EEGs seem way more suited towards neurologists than psychiatrists.

I think that you can bring a different perspective, and its some interest that would have evolved through residency; but generally, if you are thinking of going directly into clinical neurophysiology before beginning residency, then the neurology route makes way more sense. Just wanted to make sure that people were aware that psychiatrists can sub-specialize in things like traumatic brain injury medicine, and clinical neurophysiology. (And I do recall that the PRITE would throw in EEGs, and had some spasticity questions.)
 
I think that you can bring a different perspective, and its some interest that would have evolved through residency; but generally, if you are thinking of going directly into clinical neurophysiology before beginning residency, then the neurology route makes way more sense. Just wanted to make sure that people were aware that psychiatrists can sub-specialize in things like traumatic brain injury medicine, and clinical neurophysiology. (And I do recall that the PRITE would throw in EEGs, and had some spasticity questions.)

I think everyone knows psychiatrists can subspecialize in TBI as TBIs almost always have a psychiatric component. How EMGs are useful in treating mental illness is beyond me. Granted I have a lot to learn, but I just don't see the connection at all. Also, the PRITE had EEGs and spasticity questions because the psychiatry boards also include neurology.
 
I think everyone knows psychiatrists can subspecialize in TBI as TBIs almost always have a psychiatric component. How EMGs are useful in treating mental illness is beyond me. Granted I have a lot to learn, but I just don't see the connection at all. Also, the PRITE had EEGs and spasticity questions because the psychiatry boards also include neurology.
I have heard of psychiatrists doing neurophysiology fellowships though this is rare, and would most likely be someone who was research-oriented, doing say research into using qEEG as diagnostic/treatment marker for mental disorders. I think it would be highly unlikely that a psychiatrist doing this fellowship would be doing EMG/NCS studies or focusing on neuromuscular disease, and given the significant slash in reimbursement for that procedure it's not very cost-effective to provide anyway. However they would be able to read EEGs for epilespy, encephalopathy, dementia etc, and this might form part of their work. Apparently even hopkins will consider psychiatry applicants: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neur...n/fellowships/clinical_neurophysiology/apply/

Actually brain injury fellowships are mainly PM&R fellowships and most of the good ones aren't interested in psychiatry or even neurology applicants. however it is possible for psychiatrists to do this fellowship, though I would be surprised if anyone did. you'd be better of doing a neuropsychiatry fellowship if you wanted to specialize in TBI as a psychiatrist or even C/L. When it comes to highly specialized areas almost no one does this kind of work full time, it's more like a day a week at least clinically.
 
I am very interested in Psych... but I love general medicine as well, I do not want to loose the ability of practicing primary care with Psych. I am kinda of doubt.

I think this is a very common concern and certainly a worry of mine when I went into psychiatry. I clung onto this belief that I would be able to keep up with my medical knowledge, and I did the first two years, but once you move into the outpatient clinic you rapidly lose a lot of your medical knowledge. I used to be comfortable playing around the insulin, and I haven't done this is long enough that I have forgotten how to do this. It is just not possible to do it all and keep up with everything in the field. And given that in most systems we have access to specialists who can provide better care in their area of expertise, we should use this as needed. In the inpatient settings psychiatrists may manage basic medical problems like UTIs/STIs/cellulitis and so on, as well as hypertension, diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, hypothyroidism, asthma, COPD etc depending on the availability of other medical personnel. However if you are having to manage lots of medical problems then you will short-change your patients on the psychiatric aspects of their care though you will be overall responsible for their medical and psychiatric care. You will typically do physical examinations and lab tests as part of admissions and be responsible for management of any abnormalities in the first instance. I would rarely consult medicine when a resident in inpatient psychiatry.

In most outpatient settings it's not really appropriate to manage your patient's medical problems as they can easily see their primary care physician.* And it rarely makes sense to refill medications prescribed by another provider (they should be getting these refills from their providers). In particular systems such as the VA, I have refilled non-psych drugs for psych patients when they were hard to engage and it seemed reasonable enough. So yes, it can be appropriate. Also, if you order a UA on a pt and they have an uncomplicated UTI, I think it would be reasonable to prescribe a course of antibiotics. If your patients asks you for refills of their non-psych drugs it's at your discretion to decide whether it is appropriate or you feel comfortable to do so.

Psychiatrists are physicians first and psychiatrists second. Forget this at your peril. It just happens we focus on the psychological aspects of medicine and, if doing our jobs well, think more about the psychological, social, spiritual, ethical and legal dimensions of medical care. That does not mean we don't consider other aspects. We take more thorough histories than other specialists, and should perform a detailed mental status examination +/- cognitive state examination (which is part of the neurological examination), and come up with a thoughtful formulation of the problems the patients have and why they have those problems. In addition to treating psychiatric problems, it is often appropriate for us to treat medical complications of psychotropic drugs (e.g. tremor or acne from lithium, dystonia/dyskinesia with neuroleptics, erectile dysfunction with SSRIs, metabolic syndrome with atypical neuroleptics) and are in a good position to manage the behaviors that kill our patients like smoking, drinking alcohol, poor diet etc. I frequently perform thorough neurological examinations, order neuroimaging, and laboratory investigations on patients as part of their diagnostic work up. Because we have a better understanding of general medicine than other mental health professionals we have a better understanding of the psychological implications of physical illness, as well as the multifaceted ways medical problems can affect mental health, and when to formulate a more extensive medical differential for the psychiatric patient.

It can be hard to think about losing the skills acquired with being a physician that you have worked hard to earn, but as you go through psychiatric training you will hopefully just be developing those basic skills in a more specialized way and when you feel more confident with your abilities in treatment patients with more serious mental illness, and working psychotherapeutically with patients, you will worry less about having lost those skills which is inevitable regardless of what field of medicine you go into.

*an exception may be in PACT teams or homeless outreach teams for the chronically mentally ill who are hard to reach. In several of these that dont have primary care integrated, psychiatrists may be responsible for managing basic medical problems.
 
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I have heard of psychiatrists doing neurophysiology fellowships though this is rare, and would most likely be someone who was research-oriented, doing say research into using qEEG as diagnostic/treatment marker for mental disorders. I think it would be highly unlikely that a psychiatrist doing this fellowship would be doing EMG/NCS studies or focusing on neuromuscular disease, and given the significant slash in reimbursement for that procedure it's not very cost-effective to provide anyway. However they would be able to read EEGs for epilespy, encephalopathy, dementia etc, and this might form part of their work. Apparently even hopkins will consider psychiatry applicants: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neur...n/fellowships/clinical_neurophysiology/apply/
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neur...n/fellowships/clinical_neurophysiology/apply/

While psychiatrists are considered, I find it hard to believe they're as desirable as neurologists who will actually practice clinical neurophysiology, unless, as you said, they are extremely research-oriented.

Actually brain injury fellowships are mainly PM&R fellowships and most of the good ones aren't interested in psychiatry or even neurology applicants. however it is possible for psychiatrists to do this fellowship, though I would be surprised if anyone did. you'd be better of doing a neuropsychiatry fellowship if you wanted to specialize in TBI as a psychiatrist or even C/L. When it comes to highly specialized areas almost no one does this kind of work full time, it's more like a day a week at least clinically.

I was speaking more about neuropsychiatry/TBI, actually. In my experience with neuropsychiatry, many of the patients were TBI patients. If a psychiatrist went into neuropsych, they would have ample exposure to this patient population if they so choose. I don't know anything about PM&R fellowships.
 
Those PM&R brain injury fellowships appear to emphasize acute care TBI, to my cursory understanding. I can't imagine psychiatry being too beneficial/preparatory there. On the flip side, I can't really see PM&R being very well versed in non-acute TBI management without much psych background. I've been known to be wrong, however.
 
I think this is a very common concern and certainly a worry of mine when I went into psychiatry. I clung onto this belief that I would be able to keep up with my medical knowledge, and I did the first two years, but once you move into the outpatient clinic you rapidly lose a lot of your medical knowledge. I used to be comfortable playing around the insulin, and I haven't done this is long enough that I have forgotten how to do this. It is just not possible to do it all and keep up with everything in the field. And given that in most systems we have access to specialists who can provide better care in their area of expertise, we should use this as needed. In the inpatient settings psychiatrists may manage basic medical problems like UTIs/STIs/cellulitis and so on, as well as hypertension, diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, hypothyroidism, asthma, COPD etc depending on the availability of other medical personnel. However if you are having to manage lots of medical problems then you will short-change your patients on the psychiatric aspects of their care though you will be overall responsible for their medical and psychiatric care. You will typically do physical examinations and lab tests as part of admissions and be responsible for management of any abnormalities in the first instance. I would rarely consult medicine when a resident in inpatient psychiatry.

In most outpatient settings it's not really appropriate to manage your patient's medical problems as they can easily see their primary care physician.* And it rarely makes sense to refill medications prescribed by another provider (they should be getting these refills from their providers). In particular systems such as the VA, I have refilled non-psych drugs for psych patients when they were hard to engage and it seemed reasonable enough. So yes, it can be appropriate. Also, if you order a UA on a pt and they have an uncomplicated UTI, I think it would be reasonable to prescribe a course of antibiotics. If your patients asks you for refills of their non-psych drugs it's at your discretion to decide whether it is appropriate or you feel comfortable to do so.

Psychiatrists are physicians first and psychiatrists second. Forget this at your peril. It just happens we focus on the psychological aspects of medicine and, if doing our jobs well, think more about the psychological, social, spiritual, ethical and legal dimensions of medical care. That does not mean we don't consider other aspects. We take more thorough histories than other specialists, and should perform a detailed mental status examination +/- cognitive state examination (which is part of the neurological examination), and come up with a thoughtful formulation of the problems the patients have and why they have those problems. In addition to treating psychiatric problems, it is often appropriate for us to treat medical complications of psychotropic drugs (e.g. tremor or acne from lithium, dystonia/dyskinesia with neuroleptics, erectile dysfunction with SSRIs, metabolic syndrome with atypical neuroleptics) and are in a good position to manage the behaviors that kill our patients like smoking, drinking alcohol, poor diet etc. I frequently perform thorough neurological examinations, order neuroimaging, and laboratory investigations on patients as part of their diagnostic work up. Because we have a better understanding of general medicine than other mental health professionals we have a better understanding of the psychological implications of physical illness, as well as the multifaceted ways medical problems can affect mental health, and when to formulate a more extensive medical differential for the psychiatric patient.

It can be hard to think about losing the skills acquired with being a physician that you have worked hard to earn, but as you go through psychiatric training you will hopefully just be developing those basic skills in a more specialized way and when you feel more confident with your abilities in treatment patients with more serious mental illness, and working psychotherapeutically with patients, you will worry less about having lost those skills which is inevitable regardless of what field of medicine you go into.

*an exception may be in PACT teams or homeless outreach teams for the chronically mentally ill who are hard to reach. In several of these that dont have primary care integrated, psychiatrists may be responsible for managing basic medical problems.

Agree with the above.

My takes on the OP's questions:
1. The multidisciplinary fellowships are more competitive than psych fellowships because psychiatrists usually don't do fellowships, so there are more spots than applicants, while multidisciplinary fellowships have plenty of applicants. But if you have a good CV (go to a good psych program, do some electives and/or research in the subspecialty), many fellowship programs like to take psychiatrists to improve their diversity.
2. Neuropsych is easy to get into, but you don't really need a fellowship unless you want to do research. There is no significant pay bump.
3. As splik said, your medical skills/knowledge will atrophy. If you like using your medical knowledge, you can do C/L, eating disorders, ECT/non-invasive brain stimulation, addictions, sleep, pain, etc. I do often manage basic medical problems while a patient is awaiting an appointment with their PCP (i.e. UTIs, poorly-controlled diabetes, asthma, etc), especially when those things are contributing to the patient's psych symptoms... but I'm only a PGY2, so there's a good chance that I'll get less comfortable with this stuff as time goes on.
4. Yes, you can do a clinical neurophysiology fellowship, but I don't see why you'd do a psych residency if you want to be a neurophysiologist, unless you are doing it specifically for research applications. The head of the psych department at my institution (WashU) is a neurophysiologist, but again, he focuses on the research end of things... there are currently no applications for neurophysiology in clinical psychiatry. But if you talk to him, he'll say that this is likely to change in the not-too-distant future.
 
Cleveland Clinic used to have a neurophys fellowship in which you picked 2 out of 3 tracks- Sleep, EEG, EMG. They would occasionally take psychiatrists, who would do sleep and EEG. This was before sleep became an official fellowship.
 
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