Questions about OMS

[AlbinoPolarBear]

So be cool to your fellow surgeon, but if he did a 6yr he's egotistical and wasted money?

Great work.

Yes. That's exactly what I said. You should win some sort of award for reading comprehension.

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[DavesNotHere]

Yes. That's exactly what I said. You should win some sort of award for reading comprehension.

Well you did say that if you do a 6yr you're choosing ego over money...he just put it blunter...right?

 

[PartyROC]

Yes. That's exactly what I said. You should win some sort of award for reading comprehension.

You literally said choosing your ego instead of money. You don't see that as insulting? If I said completing a 6yr is perseverance over being lazy or greedy, but do whatever you want with your life, you'd be insulted as well

You want to respect your colleagues, then admire those who chose to elevate their own learning by obtaining the most coveted educational degree in our country

You can applaud your colleagues without seeing it as demeaning to yourself, brotha

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

You literally said choosing your ego instead of money. You don't see that as insulting? If I said completing a 6yr is perseverance over being lazy or greedy, but do whatever you want with your life, you'd be insulted as well

You want to respect your colleagues, then admire those who chose to elevate their own learning by obtaining the most coveted educational degree in our country

You can applaud your colleagues without seeing it as demeaning to yourself, brotha

Nah brotha, if you looked at the context which I said it, I specifically meant that oral surgeon who put MD before DMD in his name. Don't be like him, by giving your colleagues the perception you're above them.

The rest of your post I agree with. There is already great respect for oral surgeons, MD or no MD. But remember that respect has to be 2 ways.

 

[Bereno]

Well you did say that if you do a 6yr you're choosing ego over money...he just put it blunter...right?

I don't think that's what he said though. He said that since the OMFS in that specific scenario put MD first, (implying your are first a physician and second a dentist) that the dentists in the area were insulted. He then said that to be careful of your ego if you happen to have an MD so that you don't come across as superior to your fellow dentists. He did not say that getting the MD makes him egotistical.

You literally said choosing your ego instead of money. You don't see that as insulting? If I said completing a 6yr is perseverance over being lazy or greedy, but do whatever you want with your life, you'd be insulted as well

You want to respect your colleagues, then admire those who chose to elevate their own learning by obtaining the most coveted educational degree in our country

You can applaud your colleagues without seeing it as demeaning to yourself, brotha

He was referring to where to put the "MD" after his name ('MD, DMD' vs 'DMD, MD') since the surgeon already had it. He was saying nothing about getting the MD due to ego. I would read his post again.

 

[Okilito]

You literally said choosing your ego instead of money. You don't see that as insulting? If I said completing a 6yr is perseverance over being lazy or greedy, but do whatever you want with your life, you'd be insulted as well

You want to respect your colleagues, then admire those who chose to elevate their own learning by obtaining the most coveted educational degree in our country

You can applaud your colleagues without seeing it as demeaning to yourself, brotha

Most coveted . . . not so sure about that. Most respected . . . probably. In fact using the word 'respected' would've made your argument slightly better. By saying coveted, you are sort of implying wrong things. You know what I mean?

 

[PartyROC]

Most coveted . . . not so sure about that. Most respected . . . probably. In fact using the word 'respected' would've made your argument slightly better. By saying coveted, you are sort of implying wrong things. You know what I mean?

No, what wrong things?

By coveted I meant "sought after". English is not my first language, but I am fairly sure that I have used the term correctly.

And if I misinterpreted your remarks albinopolarbear, then I apologize...it was misleading for me, and still is!

I think I feel so strongly about the issue, because for the last two years I have heard what the MDs and OR staff say about anyone entering the OR that is a DDS/DMD both to their face "jokingly" and behind their backs. I have seen the way they are treated as second class citizens when it comes to scheduling. And if I were entering a career that required me to spend time in a hospital I would want and need the respect of my colleagues to continue to work.

 

[Okilito]

No, what wrong things?

By coveted I meant "sought after". English is not my first language, but I am fairly sure that I have used the term correctly.

And if I misinterpreted your remarks albinopolarbear, then I apologize...it was misleading for me, and still is!

I think I feel so strongly about the issue, because for the last two years I have heard what the MDs and OR staff say about anyone entering the OR that is a DDS/DMD both to their face "jokingly" and behind their backs. I have seen the way they are treated as second class citizens when it comes to scheduling. And if I were entering a career that required me to spend time in a hospital I would want and need the respect of my colleagues to continue to work.

Well, "sought after" is absolutely correct but generally it means sought after for the wrong reasons (covet is not necessarily a positive verb). But regardless of that, you are sort of implying the very thing that you found insulting in the earlier post. Why do you think that MD is the most coveted degree? Because it requires years of training, because it puts you in great debt, because of all the sacrifices required along the way? Or is it because general population tends to think that MD's are financially stable and respected individuals in their community? If it is latter than wouldn't you think that the reason most people would covet MD degree is because of money and to satisfy their ego? To take it a step further, I don't even think that most people desire an MD degree over some other ones. For instance, many people outside of this forum, would argue that 2 years in a prestigious MBA or 3 years in a prestigious JD program are much better options in many respects. If you are looking from a financial stand point, those grads start earning considerable incomes much earlier in their lives without acquiring nearly as much debt and in terms of prestige ... well, all you have to do is take a look at who is running this country; certainly not MD's. Now had you used word respected, then your argument would've had a totally different tone. Inexplicably, we all overanalyze each other's statements and while I am sure that you didn't intend your statement to be understood in such a way it obviously did happen.

 

[dmdluffy]

No, what wrong things?

By coveted I meant "sought after". English is not my first language, but I am fairly sure that I have used the term correctly.

And if I misinterpreted your remarks albinopolarbear, then I apologize...it was misleading for me, and still is!

I think I feel so strongly about the issue, because for the last two years I have heard what the MDs and OR staff say about anyone entering the OR that is a DDS/DMD both to their face "jokingly" and behind their backs. I have seen the way they are treated as second class citizens when it comes to scheduling. And if I were entering a career that required me to spend time in a hospital I would want and need the respect of my colleagues to continue to work.

Eh, the people who saw **** talking the dentists have a chip on the shoulder. The ones that do talk crap (since I am led to believe and would like to believe that most don't) about dentists will talk crap about an OMS because they are just a dentist. That will be true regardless if the OMS is a 4 or 6 year. You can have an MD and be an OMS, but the ones that are negative will still see them as "just a dentist". And that's perfectly fine because I want and am a dentist. Not everyone wants to a be a physician and I am sure if an OMS really wanted to be, they likely could have gone to medical school and done perfectly fine. In the end, just do you. Who cares what others say.

 

[PartyROC]

Well, "sought after" is absolutely correct but generally it means sought after for the wrong reasons (covet is not necessarily a positive verb). But regardless of that, you are sort of implying the very thing that you found insulting in the earlier post. Why do you think that MD is the most coveted degree? Because it requires years of training, because it puts you in great debt, because of all the sacrifices required along the way? Or is it because general population tends to think that MD's are financially stable and respected individuals in their community? If it is latter than wouldn't you think that the reason most people would covet MD degree is because of money and to satisfy their ego? To take it a step further, I don't even think that most people desire an MD degree over some other ones. For instance, many people outside of this forum, would argue that 2 years in a prestigious MBA or 3 years in a prestigious JD program are much better options in many respects. If you are looking from a financial stand point, those grads start earning considerable incomes much earlier in their lives without acquiring nearly as much debt and in terms of prestige ... well, all you have to do is take a look at who is running this country; certainly not MD's. Now had you used word respected, then your argument would've had a totally different tone. Inexplicably, we all overanalyze each other's statements and while I am sure that you didn't intend your statement to be understood in such a way it obviously did happen.

No...to all of it. The MD is the most RESPECTED because it only takes the brightest of the bright and weeds out the lazy. You keep referencing money...and yes doctors make more than dentists...but it's more about respect. Look at the way dentists are portrayed in media? No one says trust me im a dentist...MDs are respected because of what it took for them to achieve that title. Not the money.

 

[PartyROC]

Eh, the people who saw **** talking the dentists have a chip on the shoulder. The ones that do talk crap (since I am led to believe and would like to believe that most don't) about dentists will talk crap about an OMS because they are just a dentist. That will be true regardless if the OMS is a 4 or 6 year. You can have an MD and be an OMS, but the ones that are negative will still see them as "just a dentist". And that's perfectly fine because I want and am a dentist. Not everyone wants to a be a physician and I am sure if an OMS really wanted to be, they likely could have gone to medical school and done perfectly fine. In the end, just do you. Who cares what others say.

That's the attitude you need, I agree. But from my experience, the 6yrs ARE treated with more respect...even on the same damned procedures. And not caring what they say doesn't change the way you are treated.

I've seen the DDS have their surgeries booted to the next day...delayed for hours to accommodate non-emergency cases...the nurses and scrub techs make jokes about teeth the whole time...and this is at two separate hospitals that share nothing except rotating residents/students...and I brought this up once conversationally to an attending OMFS (4yr) who I had seen mistreated two/three times...and he had no idea, he thought he was treated well, he just assumed that's the way hospitals were (i didn't burst his bubble)...never realizing an MD with a dry-erase marker had caused him to sit in the doctor's lounge for 4 hours so they could do a non-emergent neuro case

I saw a CRNA once almost cause a case to get cancelled because she kept emphasizing to this frightened 22yo that the hip graft was going to be done by a dentist and scared the pt to the point of almost leaving the hospital!

 

[Okilito]

No...to all of it. The MD is the most RESPECTED because it only takes the brightest of the bright and weeds out the lazy. You keep referencing money...and yes doctors make more than dentists...but it's more about respect. Look at the way dentists are portrayed in media? No one says trust me im a dentist...MDs are respected because of what it took for them to achieve that title. Not the money.

I am not sure what is the point of this reply. Now you just capitalized the word I said your should have used in the first place instead of COVET? Not only that, you then went on to describe the obsession with what others will be thinking about your degree (media, colleagues, patients etc.); if that doesn't cater to one's egotism then what does? BTW, I never said that respect is because of the money.

 

[PartyROC]

I am not sure what is the point of this reply. Now you just capitalized the word I said your should have used in the first place instead of COVET? Not only that, you then went on to describe the obsession with what others will be thinking about your degree (media, colleagues, patients etc.); if that doesn't cater to one's egotism then what does? BTW, I never said that respect is because of the money.

Okay, let's clarify...bc this is spinning wildly out of relevance

Your whole post is about how I linked finances/money as the stem of people respecting MDs...i tried to explain that was not the impetus of their respect, but that respect based on achievement was the origin of their respect

And to me wanting people's respect doesn't necessarily indicate ego. Ego, imho would be wanting someone's jealousy...but Ill admit that's a fine line...the difference in my opinion is that respect can further your career and benefit you, whereas jealousy does nothing...but again I'm sure you could loosely define that as feeding ego.

My underlying message was that it is insulting to insinuate that those who go six year are doing so for pride alone...and that to insinuate additionally that it's a terrible decision financially implies to me that they are egotistical and dumb (pursuing pride /money)...if albinopolarbear didn't intend that then it was a case of internet miscomprehension and a folly

That's it.

 

[DaleDoback]

No...to all of it. The MD is the most RESPECTED because it only takes the brightest of the bright and weeds out the lazy. You keep referencing money...and yes doctors make more than dentists...but it's more about respect. Look at the way dentists are portrayed in media? No one says trust me im a dentist...MDs are respected because of what it took for them to achieve that title. Not the money.

http://www.cafepress.com/swanketees/1314332

And you are so poorly mistaken if you think that med school weeds out the lazy and only takes the brightest of the bright. There are most crazy smart MDs, but some very mediocre ones as well (every dental/med school has the one guy/gal that he wouldn't let touch his family).

My buddy was just "practicing his IV's" when he had tracks too. Welcome to reality.

And please don't take your isolated personal experiences and apply it to the field as a whole. At our program, we are very well respected by the other teams and staff. Our cases don't get bumped just bc of the DDS. That's not par for the course. Of course the anesthesiologist makes a dentist joke every once in a while. Just let them know that their job is so easy they let a nurse do it. I'm a very firm believer that you get treated based on your demeanor. Man up and call someone out when you hear that crap and it at least stays behind your back. Just my opinion and how I handle things.

Act like a dentist who doesn't belong in the hospital, get treated like a dentist that doesn't belong here.

 

[CMistry]

I'm doing my best to stay out of this thread, but I will agree that the physician who insults a 4yr OMFS is just as likely to insult a 6yr OMFS. We are all dentists and physicians like to point it out. Hospitals, especially academic ones, are very heirarchical

 

[Sublimazing]

From my experience in the OR it definitely depends on the individual and not the degree. If an OMFS commands respect he'll get it, regardless of degree.

At Loma Linda they recently had to make some MAJOR administrative changes to our OR for a pediatric certification, and after reviewing the case logs apparently our omfs orthognathic surgeon does more cases at the hospital than ANYONE! So the hospital execs had to have an "emergency" meeting to make changes just to accommodate him...he's 4yr and VIP.

 

[almostchief]

From my experience in the OR it definitely depends on the individual and not the degree. If an OMFS commands respect he'll get it, regardless of degree.

At Loma Linda they recently had to make some MAJOR administrative changes to our OR for a pediatric certification, and after reviewing the case logs apparently our omfs orthognathic surgeon does more cases at the hospital than ANYONE! So the hospital execs had to have an "emergency" meeting to make changes just to accommodate him...he's 4yr and VIP.

Dale Stringer right?

If you are referring to him he is outstanding.

 

[Sublimazing]

Dale Stringer right?

If you are referring to him he is outstanding.

Yeah. Amazing surgeon, if a family member needed orthognathic i'd refer to him, no question.

 

[OMFS21]

This is a really depressing thread.....

The entire dental community should be trying to look out for each other....not rip each other to pieces the rest of society, government, and insurance companies will try and do that for us.

OMFS in general need to stick together.....we have a great specialty

Sadly what happens is life in the hospital starts to warp perspectives (the hospital is a brutal hierarchy) and cause major ego dysfunction.....

There are alot of great OMFS (duel and single degree guys) on the front lines doing crazy procedures and pushing the scope of our field and thats amazing, but what happens is a void starts to form between the bread and butter guys and these "elites." Sadly that breeds some contempt, instead both sides need to remember they are on the same team. Those guys enjoying 3rds in the office w/IV sed need to give props and respect to those who go on for additional training and are in the trenches of the hospital. Those doing fellowships and big procedures need to remember that those guys throwing 3rds and implants in the office are bringing in the $$$ to cont to support AAOMS.

Also OMFS in general need to stop being a$$holes to GP's and other dental specialists.....while you are reading up on free flaps you may miss out on developing implant technology and new virtual restorative treatment planning software. It would be wise for the OMFS team (esp those who place alot of implants) to spend sometime with GP's at their study groups and meetings to appreciate changes in the dental field and what we can do to make the GP's life better/more efficient.

OMFS in general needs to respect itself and remember its primary goal is to be masters at dentoalveolar surgery. Its amazing and awesome that we get to do mega procedures outside of that but it would be wise to remember the dreams of regenerative techniques using bioreactors and insane cancer procedures will be built on a scaffold of titanium, teeth, and bone. Don't neglect what puts food on the table and funds our continuing development or you may wake up one day and find yourself extinct.

The hospital is a brutal place....don't let it divide you from dentisty. Medicine in general is a hot mess right now and is on the cutting block. The dental field needs all the backup it can get from everyone, otherwise you may have someone else calling the shots for you one day.

except for perio...those guys are the worst

 

[Gentledental1]

This is a really depressing thread.....

The entire dental community should be trying to look out for each other....not rip each other to pieces the rest of society, government, and insurance companies will try and do that for us.

OMFS in general need to stick together.....we have a great specialty

Sadly what happens is life in the hospital starts to warp perspectives (the hospital is a brutal hierarchy) and cause major ego dysfunction.....

There are alot of great OMFS (duel and single degree guys) on the front lines doing crazy procedures and pushing the scope of our field and thats amazing, but what happens is a void starts to form between the bread and butter guys and these "elites." Sadly that breeds some contempt, instead both sides need to remember they are on the same team. Those guys enjoying 3rds in the office w/IV sed need to give props and respect to those who go on for additional training and are in the trenches of the hospital. Those doing fellowships and big procedures need to remember that those guys throwing 3rds and implants in the office are bringing in the $$$ to cont to support AAOMS.

Also OMFS in general need to stop being a$$holes to GP's and other dental specialists.....while you are reading up on free flaps you may miss out on developing implant technology and new virtual restorative treatment planning software. It would be wise for the OMFS team (esp those who place alot of implants) to spend sometime with GP's at their study groups and meetings to appreciate changes in the dental field and what we can do to make the GP's life better/more efficient.

OMFS in general needs to respect itself and remember its primary goal is to be masters at dentoalveolar surgery. Its amazing and awesome that we get to do mega procedures outside of that but it would be wise to remember the dreams of regenerative techniques using bioreactors and insane cancer procedures will be built on a scaffold of titanium, teeth, and bone. Don't neglect what puts food on the table and funds our continuing development or you may wake up one day and find yourself extinct.

The hospital is a brutal place....don't let it divide you from dentisty. Medicine in general is a hot mess right now and is on the cutting block. The dental field needs all the backup it can get from everyone, otherwise you may have someone else calling the shots for you one day.

except for perio...those guys are the worst

Very well said.