Questions regarding debt and specializing

[UFGatorToDentist]

Hello all, I apologize if this is in the wrong subforum, but I think current dentists can help me answer these questions best. I will be starting dental school this year at Lincoln Memorial University in Knoxville, TN, which is opening for the first time this fall. I calculated my debt to be around 430k on the high end, but will probably be a little less. I am also thinking of maybe specializing in ortho after dental school. My questions are the following:
1. Would it be best if I work as a GP for a few years right out of school to help pay some of my dental school loans or would it be best if I go into a specialty program right away?
2. Would it be more difficult for me to get into a specialty considering I will be attending a new dental school? I have heard some residencies prefer you to have graduated from an already established school.
3. I am considering the NHSC and HPSP scholarships to help pay off school, if anyone here has done them would you recommend them? I am aware with HPSP I won't be able to specialize right out of school.
4. How much would an ortho residency cost on average and is it on average 2 or 3 years because I have seen both numbers?
5. What is a realistic starting salary for new dentists? Considering the high interest rate on the loans, I am worried that it will take me at least 2 decades to pay it all back and if I specialize and open up a practice it will take much longer.
Thank you for your time.

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[LFA20]

@Big Time Hoosier

We need your words of wisdom here

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Would it be more difficult for me to get into a specialty considering I will be attending a new dental school

The school is going to be focused on getting their curriculum properly functioning, so all the “extracurricular” stuff you need to distinguish yourself will likely be an afterthought to them. For example, are they going to have research opportunities readily available? Ortho likes to see research from their applicants, in general.

I am considering the NHSC and HPSP scholarships to help pay off school, if anyone here has done them would you recommend them?

You should take the HPSP if you can get it. That said, it is extremely competitive these days. Probably has a way less than 50% acceptance rate. I think I read on here that someone mentioned the average DAT for the Navy a cycle or two ago was 23. At this point you are too late for a 4 year scholarship. I don’t even know if the Navy and Army offer a 3 year scholarship to people in general, they may hold those for people who applied for the 4 year but weren’t accepted. You need to talk to a recruiter.

How much would an ortho residency cost on average and is it on average 2 or 3 years because I have seen both numbers?

I’d realistically expect $200,000 to $300,000 between tuition, accrued interest, and living expenses. I mean your dental school loans themselves will accrue well into five figures of interest during residency. If you go to a “for profit” program like the Georgia School of Orthodontics or CTOR, you’ll have $300,000 in just tuition alone.

I am worried that it will take me at least 2 decades to pay it all back

You should be worried about this.

Big Hoss

 

[D1Bound]

HPSP is great. You could easily do perio, prosth, OMS is a bit easier in the military. Ortho, endo are still pretty hard to get so I hear. I’ve heard generally post grad dental education doesn’t care about where your diploma is from. I wish you the best. This is a lot of money to be a dentist so you have to be ready to work and not golf when you graduate.

 

[P7898]

Go GP and rural. That is where it is at.

 

[RollingDDS]

Go GP and rural. That is where it is at.

How rural are we talking?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

How rural are we talking?

Where farm tractors occasionally back up traffic. Man, I wish I was there...sure miss me some small town life.

Big Hoss

 

[laster67]

Hello all, I apologize if this is in the wrong subforum, but I think current dentists can help me answer these questions best. I will be starting dental school this year at Lincoln Memorial University in Knoxville, TN, which is opening for the first time this fall. I calculated my debt to be around 430k on the high end, but will probably be a little less. I am also thinking of maybe specializing in ortho after dental school. My questions are the following:
1. Would it be best if I work as a GP for a few years right out of school to help pay some of my dental school loans or would it be best if I go into a specialty program right away?
2. Would it be more difficult for me to get into a specialty considering I will be attending a new dental school? I have heard some residencies prefer you to have graduated from an already established school.
3. I am considering the NHSC and HPSP scholarships to help pay off school, if anyone here has done them would you recommend them? I am aware with HPSP I won't be able to specialize right out of school.
4. How much would an ortho residency cost on average and is it on average 2 or 3 years because I have seen both numbers?
5. What is a realistic starting salary for new dentists? Considering the high interest rate on the loans, I am worried that it will take me at least 2 decades to pay it all back and if I specialize and open up a practice it will take much longer.
Thank you for your time.

HPSP has a 10% acceptance rate - what I heard from the HPSP classmates I have

Many newer dental schools will struggle for a few years to get their systems efficient and in place, so it will be harder than if u we’re going to a mainstay school.

I think the fact that this is another new school in a rural area signifies that rural areas are themselves getting many more new dentists than 10,20+ years ago.
If you don’t identify closely with the people, area, or culture of smaller towns/rural areas rhat are quite different from many major metro areas, it will be hard to find happiness out of school.

I seriously considered the Air Force for their 3 year program, but they gave me very little time to apply and the recruiter I spoke too either knew nothing or lied. It’s rare also for them to train orthodontists since their members need dental work rather than orthodontia they already received as children

 

[P7898]

How rural are we talking?

Where the only thing to do in town is go to the Piggly Wiggly. Or just surrounded by farm land in each direction for 45 mins. Either should work or both.

 

[P7898]

Where farm tractors occasionally back up traffic. Man, I wish I was there...sure miss me some small town life.

Big Hoss

This is where I am at now. I love it. I do not mind tractors holding up traffic. It is amazing how early some of these guys wake up though and drive that thing around on a road. You get some of the best views in the morning with farm land all around you in terms of sunrises.

 

[charlestweed]

I’d rather make less (and work more days to compensate for the lower salary I earn in big cities) than living in a rural part of the country. What’s the point of making a lot of money and you don’t get to enjoy all the conveniences that this great country offers? It would be very hard for my kids. We are spoiled here in SoCal. Whenever we travel (and we only travel within the USA because it’s the best country the world), we make sure that the areas where we travel to have to have good Asian restaurants for my wife and me and delicious boba drinks for my kids. Personally, I think it’s more suitable for me set up my practice in a more culturally diverse area, where having a foreign last name and speaking English with an accent are more accepted. Being Asian, it’s easier for me to attract patients who are immigrants like myself.

If you are the sole provider for the family, you should choose to live in an area where you get paid the most. But if your spouse has a job that can only be found in big cities, then I think you should go to one of these big cities. Having double income is better (and safer financially) than having only one income. If one person can’t work (pregnancy, short term disability, or worse…..cancer), it won’t be a huge financial problem for your family. Another benefit of having a working spouse is when you both work, you have less time to waste your money on things that you don’t need. You tend to value your hard earned money more and buget things more carefully. When you have so much free time at home, you become bored and it’s hard to resist the temptation to buy things online. That’s how online shopping companies like Amazon, Ebay become so rich.

 

[George Lincoln]

Hello all, I apologize if this is in the wrong subforum, but I think current dentists can help me answer these questions best. I will be starting dental school this year at Lincoln Memorial University in Knoxville, TN, which is opening for the first time this fall. I calculated my debt to be around 430k on the high end, but will probably be a little less. I am also thinking of maybe specializing in ortho after dental school. My questions are the following:
1. Would it be best if I work as a GP for a few years right out of school to help pay some of my dental school loans or would it be best if I go into a specialty program right away?
2. Would it be more difficult for me to get into a specialty considering I will be attending a new dental school? I have heard some residencies prefer you to have graduated from an already established school.
3. I am considering the NHSC and HPSP scholarships to help pay off school, if anyone here has done them would you recommend them? I am aware with HPSP I won't be able to specialize right out of school.
4. How much would an ortho residency cost on average and is it on average 2 or 3 years because I have seen both numbers?
5. What is a realistic starting salary for new dentists? Considering the high interest rate on the loans, I am worried that it will take me at least 2 decades to pay it all back and if I specialize and open up a practice it will take much longer.
Thank you for your time.

 

[George Lincoln]

It's America do what you want to do! Big secret on Ortho. It's the only specialty that you can participate with insurance and balance bill the patient. The current problem is all these removable retainers that are sold through the mail. If you want to stay in General Practice leave the metropolitan areas. I see a lot of comments here about rural. I practiced in a city that is out of the top 50 markets in the US. If you see where I'm going most dentists seem to think about economics like someone who graduated from sixth grade. Reimbursement is lower in smaller markets but so is cost of living. Because of that, I lived very well and I had the opportunity to generate a net worth well into eight figures. I did participate with insurance companies, provided free care for a local clinic and Donated Dental Services. You never feel bad doing the right thing. My children enjoyed growing up in that environment and want me to keep that residence because they use it as a vacation home for skiing and summer sports. At first my significant was not happy, but now she's an advocate. I have two other residences and multiple vehicles, when your young you think that makes you happy, only if you can share them. I was a specialist but many General Dentists have similar success, in fact two whom I'm friendly with are both worth double what I am. They both take insurance and have nice offices but nothing extravagant. Unfortunately most Dentists and Physicians never are able to achieve financial success because they have a sixth grade view of finance.
So do what you want to do, because you never want to look back with regret.

 

[P7898]

I’d rather make less (and work more days to compensate for the lower salary I earn in big cities) than living in a rural part of the country. What’s the point of making a lot of money and you don’t get to enjoy all the conveniences that this great country offers? It would be very hard for my kids. We are spoiled here in SoCal. Whenever we travel (and we only travel within the USA because it’s the best country the world), we make sure that the areas where we travel to have to have good Asian restaurants for my wife and me and delicious boba drinks for my kids. Personally, I think it’s more suitable for me set up my practice in a more culturally diverse area, where having a foreign last name and speaking English with an accent are more accepted. Being Asian, it’s easier for me to attract patients who are immigrants like myself.

If you are the sole provider for the family, you should choose to live in an area where you get paid the most. But if your spouse has a job that can only be found in big cities, then I think you should go to one of these big cities. Having double income is better (and safer financially) than having only one income. If one person can’t work (pregnancy, short term disability, or worse…..cancer), it won’t be a huge financial problem for your family. Another benefit of having a working spouse is when you both work, you have less time to waste your money on things that you don’t need. You tend to value your hard earned money more and buget things more carefully. When you have so much free time at home, you become bored and it’s hard to resist the temptation to buy things online. That’s how online shopping companies like Amazon, Ebay become so rich.

Great point. I am in a small town that is surrounded by farm land but I am 10 mins from literally everything (grocery store, dealership, restaurants, ect.). I am 1 hour from a major city though. So take for what it is. I like not being in congested areas and being in a small community. There are pros and cons to both. But I like a stress free and convienient life. Even though I am surrounded by farm land, I still have all the conveniences close.

 

[schmoob]

Good luck getting HPSP at this point in the year, you can pretty much forget about that. And it will likely be very difficult to get into ortho from a brand new school unless it’s a factory like Georgia or CTOR.
Plus, you don’t know what you’ll like. I personally can’t stand ortho, but that’s me. It’s a great specialty but I just wouldn’t want to do it.

 

[P7898]

To OP. You'll be in a lot of debt. Financially, specializing in Ortho, is not a good idea...

Financially speaking you want to get a job right away and manage your interest rate. Your interest rate on your loans will be massive. Then buy a practice or buy into a practice (find a way to increase your income). Ortho will run you like $100-$200k plus interest. DO NOT underestimate interest. A lot of pre-dents do. They have no idea what interest actually does to your loans (I was guilty of this but got lucky since I went to a cheap school).

Ortho will give you a good work life balance with good income but it is all relative to your debt. Debt to income ratio.

If I were you, I would go to a different school and just try one more year (if it were me) to get into a cheaper school. If not, try NHSC Scholarship Programs. If you cannot get this then try to find a rural public health job with loan forgiveness or a rural corporate or private office that will give you $200k+ as a new grad to start and work as much as you can.

Even if you were lucky to get into a stipend ortho program, your interest on $400k will accumulate quick and balloon to $500k+ in the 2-3 years you are in ortho school. Lets say you make $300k after as an ortho... really this is like $195,000 after taxes if you are single. So $300k does not seem like a lot when you have to pay $400-$500k + with interest compounding on top of this.

This is reality and my unfiltered advice.

 

[UFGatorToDentist]

Good luck getting HPSP at this point in the year, you can pretty much forget about that. And it will likely be very difficult to get into ortho from a brand new school unless it’s a factory like Georgia or CTOR.
Plus, you don’t know what you’ll like. I personally can’t stand ortho, but that’s me. It’s a great specialty but I just wouldn’t want to do it.

Why do you say that it's difficult for brand new schools to get you into ortho? My school will be providing research and a lot of extracurriculars. I have even heard by many dental students that research isn't even required for ortho as long as I am high in class ranking and have good grades, etc. What is the factor that will make new schools less likely to get into ortho? My school also plans to eventually provide specialties, but they have not said when they will be established.

 

[UFGatorToDentist]

To OP. You'll be in a lot of debt. Financially, specializing in Ortho, is not a good idea...

Financially speaking you want to get a job right away and manage your interest rate. Your interest rate on your loans will be massive. Then buy a practice or buy into a practice (find a way to increase your income). Ortho will run you like $100-$200k plus interest. DO NOT underestimate interest. A lot of pre-dents do. They have no idea what interest actually does to your loans (I was guilty of this but got lucky since I went to a cheap school).

Ortho will give you a good work life balance with good income but it is all relative to your debt. Debt to income ratio.

If I were you, I would go to a different school and just try one more year (if it were me) to get into a cheaper school. If not, try NHSC Scholarship Programs. If you cannot get this then try to find a rural public health job with loan forgiveness or a rural corporate or private office that will give you $200k+ as a new grad to start and work as much as you can.

Even if you were lucky to get into a stipend ortho program, your interest on $400k will accumulate quick and balloon to $500k+ in the 2-3 years you are in ortho school. Lets say you make $300k after as an ortho... really this is like $195,000 after taxes if you are single. So $300k does not seem like a lot when you have to pay $400-$500k + with interest compounding on top of this.

This is reality and my unfiltered advice.

Even if I reapply to schools, I will attend dental school this year regardless because I can't risk entry to another school next year since it's not guaranteed. I'll add close to 100k in debt from this one year alone so even if I get a new school in theory, I'll basically end up paying the same amount at the end since I will be in school for a total of 5 years. UF was my top choice and I would be in-state, but despite doing undergrad research at their dental school and volunteering, etc. they did not even interview me so I doubt I will even try to reapply again and just stick with this school. I understand that interest will be tough and will add to my cost significantly, but I am not sure when I should start ortho in that sense. I am positive ortho is the only specialty I would choose to do if any, and I am not sure how easy it would be for me to work as a GP for a few years then go back to school. Maybe school back to back is best, but I am still deciding and obviously will have to see what happens during my time in dental school. I am currently applying for NHSC and plan to apply again if I do not receive it this year. HPSP was a mere thought and I do not plan to pursue that scholarship, so it's either NHSC or paying back my loans.

 

[D1Bound]

Even if I reapply to schools, I will attend dental school this year regardless because I can't risk entry to another school next year since it's not guaranteed. I'll add close to 100k in debt from this one year alone so even if I get a new school in theory, I'll basically end up paying the same amount at the end since I will be in school for a total of 5 years. UF was my top choice and I would be in-state, but despite doing undergrad research at their dental school and volunteering, etc. they did not even interview me so I doubt I will even try to reapply again and just stick with this school. I understand that interest will be tough and will add to my cost significantly, but I am not sure when I should start ortho in that sense. I am positive ortho is the only specialty I would choose to do if any, and I am not sure how easy it would be for me to work as a GP for a few years then go back to school. Maybe school back to back is best, but I am still deciding and obviously will have to see what happens during my time in dental school. I am currently applying for NHSC and plan to apply again if I do not receive it this year. HPSP was a mere thought and I do not plan to pursue that scholarship, so it's either NHSC or paying back my loans.

Why so intent on ortho?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I have even heard by many dental students that research isn't even required for ortho as long as I am high in class ranking and have good grades, etc.

So...all that’s going to be on your CV is your GPA and class rank? Might I suggest using a really big font size to fill all that empty space?

Big Hoss

 

[PerioDont]

To OP. You'll be in a lot of debt. Financially, specializing in Ortho, is not a good idea...

Financially speaking you want to get a job right away and manage your interest rate. Your interest rate on your loans will be massive. Then buy a practice or buy into a practice (find a way to increase your income). Ortho will run you like $100-$200k plus interest. DO NOT underestimate interest. A lot of pre-dents do. They have no idea what interest actually does to your loans (I was guilty of this but got lucky since I went to a cheap school).

Ortho will give you a good work life balance with good income but it is all relative to your debt. Debt to income ratio.

If I were you, I would go to a different school and just try one more year (if it were me) to get into a cheaper school. If not, try NHSC Scholarship Programs. If you cannot get this then try to find a rural public health job with loan forgiveness or a rural corporate or private office that will give you $200k+ as a new grad to start and work as much as you can.

Even if you were lucky to get into a stipend ortho program, your interest on $400k will accumulate quick and balloon to $500k+ in the 2-3 years you are in ortho school. Lets say you make $300k after as an ortho... really this is like $195,000 after taxes if you are single. So $300k does not seem like a lot when you have to pay $400-$500k + with interest compounding on top of this.

This is reality and my unfiltered advice.

Met an Ortho resident at an unnamed private program that will be graduating 1.3 million in the hole. This is not a typo or exaggeration. Do not underestimate interest. Those are some heavy numbers

 

[D1Bound]

Met an Ortho resident at an unnamed private program that will be graduating 1.3 million in the hole. This is not a typo or exaggeration. Do not underestimate interest. Those are some heavy numbers

That's so much to try and fight against. How can you even start a life like this?!?!?! You'd need to come out swinging a 600-700k salary immediately to have a chance, right?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Met an Ortho resident at an unnamed private program that will be graduating 1.3 million in the hole. This is not a typo or exaggeration. Do not underestimate interest. Those are some heavy numbers

Can you imagine having to pay $85,000/year just to cover your accrued interest?! You’d have to earn $110,000/year or so to cover that! We’re not even talking about paying down the principal.

Big Hoss

 

[8_man]

2. Would it be more difficult for me to get into a specialty considering I will be attending a new dental school? I have heard some residencies prefer you to have graduated from an already established school.

Why do you say that it's difficult for brand new schools to get you into ortho? My school will be providing research and a lot of extracurriculars. I have even heard by many dental students that research isn't even required for ortho as long as I am high in class ranking and have good grades, etc. What is the factor that will make new schools less likely to get into ortho? My school also plans to eventually provide specialties, but they have not said when they will be established.

You seemed to have answered your own question.

Just some thoughts--a new school lacks a track record of producing strong applicants. It would be a gamble for ortho programs to choose these applicants over those from more established schools, especially ones they've already accepted students from in the past (and liked).

Really though, as long as you do well and have some nice extracurriculars to talk about, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to match somewhere.

 

[UFGatorToDentist]

Why so intent on ortho?

It just seems very interesting and enjoyable. I have shadowed a GP and an ortho and I definitely like ortho more for the time being but I will obviously make that decision after my time in dental school. Maybe things will change, who knows.

 

[UFGatorToDentist]

So...all that’s going to be on your CV is your GPA and class rank? Might I suggest using a really big font size to fill all that empty space?

Big Hoss

I assume research is very helpful and needed despite what I heard. I will definitely try to get into it and do other extracurriculars to stand out, especially being in a new school and all.

 

[UFGatorToDentist]

Met an Ortho resident at an unnamed private program that will be graduating 1.3 million in the hole. This is not a typo or exaggeration. Do not underestimate interest. Those are some heavy numbers

That is pretty crazy. I assume he was at a very expensive dental school. I expect to graduate with 400k debt, lets say an extra 200-300k for ortho, it' still 600-700k total debt which is definitely a lot and will become over 1 mil with interest. I tried to apply to NHSC but they denied my application as the school I will be attending is not supported by them... oh well.

 

[gryffindor]

So...all that’s going to be on your CV is your GPA and class rank? Might I suggest using a really big font size to fill all that empty space?

Big Hoss

You say this like it's a problem? Just put down activities from college and high school. Or make some up. Or copy another person's resume. There is an orthodontist out there who asked for a copy of my CV when we were dental students and he plagiarized it. I saw his resume when he applied to the GPR I was in and stood there for a few minutes unsure of what I had just read. Dude got into a great ortho program right out of DS while I had to wait for my turn to get in.

 

[D1Bound]

It just seems very interesting and enjoyable. I have shadowed a GP and an ortho and I definitely like ortho more for the time being but I will obviously make that decision after my time in dental school. Maybe things will change, who knows.

My very early early shadowing days I was really in to ortho. It seemed easy. Tons of cash. You can still make great money so I hear. The ortho space has changed a lot in the last 10-15 years since I’ve finally come up. I would ask young and old doctors and try and project 20 years out. Everyone says do what you love, which I think is true. We can’t see into the future. I’m spending all this time training so I want to be 100% safe, turn key, multi-millionaire by 40 years old with minimal risk. Ortho with all the new grads and all the extra debt gives me pause. What if ortho became saturated like pharmacy right when you got up to speed 3 years into practice?

 

[bracketbuster68]

My very early early shadowing days I was really in to ortho. It seemed easy. Tons of cash. You can still make great money so I hear. The ortho space has changed a lot in the last 10-15 years since I’ve finally come up. I would ask young and old doctors and try and project 20 years out. Everyone says do what you love, which I think is true. We can’t see into the future. I’m spending all this time training so I want to be 100% safe, turn key, multi-millionaire by 40 years old with minimal risk. Ortho with all the new grads and all the extra debt gives me pause. What if ortho became saturated like pharmacy right when you got up to speed 3 years into practice?

You can’t predict the future of specialties regardless of what you can rationalize. This is why you should pick what you enjoy.

 

[GoDental101]

You can’t predict the future of specialties regardless of what you can rationalize. This is why you should pick what you enjoy.

How can you know you enjoy ortho?....You can't hence why people picked based off of future predictions of likelihood for financial benefit. The answer is simple enough, supply and demand.

 

[bracketbuster68]

How can you know you enjoy ortho?....You can't hence why people picked based off of future predictions of likelihood for financial benefit. The answer is simple enough, supply and demand.

You will know what you like and don’t like in dental school. If not, you will know when you are working.

I knew I’d like ortho because it’s the furthest thing from operative dentistry out there.

 

[P7898]

Met an Ortho resident at an unnamed private program that will be graduating 1.3 million in the hole. This is not a typo or exaggeration. Do not underestimate interest. Those are some heavy numbers

Helping my point here. Everything has to be considered. But

Can you imagine having to pay $85,000/year just to cover your accrued interest?! You’d have to earn $110,000/year or so to cover that! We’re not even talking about paying down the principal.

View attachment 353421

Big Hoss

Or living costs....

 

[P7898]

You will know what you like and don’t like in dental school. If not, you will know when you are working.

I knew I’d like ortho because it’s the furthest thing from operative dentistry out there.

And that is fine. Just find a way to have it make financial sense. Know what $300k salary is after taxes and know what interest can do to a loan and know your living expenses.... DO THE MATH. People hate keeping track of their expenses and life costs because they do not want to know. They think that they are a "rich doctor" that they think they will make "plenty of money" - this is a fools way of thinking.

 

[cmjacks5]

You say this like it's a problem? Just put down activities from college and high school. Or make some up. Or copy another person's resume. There is an orthodontist out there who asked for a copy of my CV when we were dental students and he plagiarized it. I saw his resume when he applied to the GPR I was in and stood there for a few minutes unsure of what I had just read. Dude got into a great ortho program right out of DS while I had to wait for my turn to get in.

What?!!! I’d snitched lol