Rad Onc residency programs that support basic science

[macbergleton]

I'm a MD/PhD applicant who wants to continue basic science in residency and beyond. Many programs say that they support residents doing basic research, but not all live up to this promise. I would like to avoid programs that will not offer significant protected research time (> 12 months, at a minimum).

Which programs are most supportive of basic science and the Holman Research Pathway? Importantly, which stand out as being unsupportive?

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[Sheldor]

I'm a MD/PhD applicant who wants to continue basic science in residency and beyond. Many programs say that they support residents doing basic research, but not all live up to this promise. I would like to avoid programs that will not offer significant protected research time (> 12 months, at a minimum).

Which programs are most supportive of basic science and the Holman Research Pathway? Importantly, which stand out as being unsupportive?

A big wig recently told me that the University of Chicago really emphasized basic research options. He went so far as to discourage me from going there if I had any interest in clinical research, for what thats worth.

 

[Gfunk6]

I suggest you look up old posts regarding programs supporting the Holman pathway here and here. The FAQ also has an extensive section devoted to this subject.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm a MD/PhD applicant who wants to continue basic science in residency and beyond. Many programs say that they support residents doing basic research, but not all live up to this promise. I would like to avoid programs that will not offer significant protected research time (> 12 months, at a minimum).

Which programs are most supportive of basic science and the Holman Research Pathway? Importantly, which stand out as being unsupportive?

I went in with the same attitude. Oddly, I ended up not pursuing Holman and electing for 11 months of research, but that's a different story. I struggled with that decision. I guess it comes down to whether you are 100% set on having a basic science research career wherever and whatever that entails. There is one Holman resident at my program, and I think the basic research at all costs mindset describes him perfectly.

I think you can find a list on here of programs that will give you Holman or 12 months of research. Without a Holman pathway, 12 months is the most a program is able to give you for research without taking time off for residency. We had someone do this and he is pursuing a PhD during residency, though he still must complete 36 months of clinical rad onc duty. Note that some programs will only give you Holman OR less than a year of research (say 6-9 months). So you have to be devoted to Holman to apply to those programs.

Nevertheless, 12 months or Holman-supporting programs represents a minority of programs. Outside of those research oriented positions, most programs will not be supportive of someone doing 12 months of basic lab research.

I would also recommend that you look at whether the programs you're interested in are strong in the type of basic science research you are experienced in and/or want to do. It is probably better if there is faculty who line up with your interests within the rad onc department, though this isn't entirely necessary. In the end, making things line up in research: right program, right research, right location, and getting an acceptance to said program can be very difficult unless you are quite flexible.

 

[macbergleton]

I suggest you look up old posts regarding programs supporting the Holman pathway here and here. The FAQ also has an extensive section devoted to this subject.

Thanks for the links. There have been very few posts since 2009, and I thought that times might have changed.

I haven't heard of many programs that outwardly support taking 12 + months for bench research. WashU, Chicago, and Vanderbilt are the only consistent exceptions I've run across. The reason I posted is that I've heard conflicting reports about many of the other "research friendly" programs, and I just want to be as well informed as possible before interviews start.

 

[Neuronix]

When I interviewed, UChicago did not support Holman, but they did give 12 months of research time.

 

[ToasterThief]

I'm a PGY-1 who matched into a residency program that's at a pretty research heavy institution. I don't have a PhD. Am I wrong in thinking that I probably have minimal chances of getting approved for Holman? If that's the case what would my best option be during/after residency for standing the best shot of ending up at an academic center? Would it be to take time off during residency for research? Would it be to do a fellowship afterwards?

 

[Carotenoid]

I'm a MD/PhD applicant who wants to continue basic science in residency and beyond. Many programs say that they support residents doing basic research, but not all live up to this promise. I would like to avoid programs that will not offer significant protected research time (> 12 months, at a minimum).

Which programs are most supportive of basic science and the Holman Research Pathway? Importantly, which stand out as being unsupportive?

What the dudes above said... plus check out OSU. They apparently are revamping the entire program, and the new PD+chairman sounded extremely interested in research-minded folk (and did discuss Holman with some of the applicants). If you are into research, I strongly recommend that you check out this program.

 

[Carotenoid]

I'm a PGY-1 who matched into a residency program that's at a pretty research heavy institution. I don't have a PhD. Am I wrong in thinking that I probably have minimal chances of getting approved for Holman? If that's the case what would my best option be during/after residency for standing the best shot of ending up at an academic center? Would it be to take time off during residency for research? Would it be to do a fellowship afterwards?

Wait, so are you doing your prelim/TY now? if you have already matched into Rad Onc, why don't you talk to your PD about research? if you are in a research-heavy institution, and are motivated, you have a great chance of doing research if you really want to!

 

[hot sauce]

I'm a PGY-1 who matched into a residency program that's at a pretty research heavy institution. I don't have a PhD. Am I wrong in thinking that I probably have minimal chances of getting approved for Holman? If that's the case what would my best option be during/after residency for standing the best shot of ending up at an academic center? Would it be to take time off during residency for research? Would it be to do a fellowship afterwards?

As stated above talk to your PD. Not all programs are open to Holman but I don't think a PhD is required. Taking time off during residency is not generally a viable or encouraged option as most programs don't want to be missing a resident for a year and then you would be out of sync from their usual distribution. There are fellowship options and non-Holman graduates get physician scientist jobs.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm a PGY-1 who matched into a residency program that's at a pretty research heavy institution. I don't have a PhD. Am I wrong in thinking that I probably have minimal chances of getting approved for Holman?

It depends on your background. When I spoke to the ABR secretary about Holman, the impression I was given was that to be approved for Holman you would need either a PhD or a history of PhD level research work. I honestly don't know what they'd think of someone with a history of serious year out or master's level research. You'd have to ask.

As for your residency program, they may have taken you with a batch of MD/PhDs because they wanted a mix of residents. Programs know how many residents they can have each year pursue Holman or serious year out research. They still need residents to run their clinic for them. Thus, you'll have to ask them about it. Most programs are fine with having you stay on as a "fellow" and many fellowship positions at big name institutions go unfilled because you can go get a great job when you're done without a fellowship.

If that's the case what would my best option be during/after residency for standing the best shot of ending up at an academic center?

This for me is a very odd question. You do know that most faculty at academic centers do mostly clinical work right? If you publish a number of clinical papers in residency, you have a fine chance of working at an academic center if you so choose. There are many jobs out there right now that are working 100% clinical at big name academic centers ("private practice work for academic salary" my one attending says), that this really isn't an issue. The question in my mind is really what sort of job you're looking for.

 

[Gfunk6]

If you want an academic position, the vast majority as noted above are clinical with most being weighted 4 days clinic:1 day research/academic time. You don't need Holman, or a PhD to get these positions. What you need, if you are like me and didn't have any research prior to residency, is to work your tail off in residency and publish. Every institution is different in what they look for but from what I heard from my attendings and others was that that the new standard is a minimum of 5 publications at bigger centers (I have no idea if this is true or not, but it was what I was told) with many applicants that I knew having 10 or more publications. As a resident looking for a job, unless you are publishing RTOG secondary analyses, other big time papers, or basic scientce, quantity will trump quality the majority of the time for clinical research.

To expand on this a little bit, there are three sub-categories for academic clinical jobs:

1. Physician-Investigator = this is what is described above; you will be expected to publish regularly and take the lead on prospective research

2. Clinician-Educator = if you mainly want to teach but not publish, then this is your track; publication requirements are minimal; however when I was interviewing, many academic institutions were phasing this track out in favor of #3 . . .

3. Work in a Satellite = more and more academic institutions are building satellite centers in other areas of their state, other parts of the country or even in other parts of the world. This type of job can really be like a "private practice in an academic setting." Also, for graduates who want to work in academics but lack the "pedigree" for competitive programs, these satellite positions can serve as a pathway to reach the "mothership."

 

[Cancerdancer]

"private practice in an academic setting."

That may the most optimistic framing of that kind of job I've seen. More commonly it seems to be called 'private practice work at an academic salary', no?

 

[CyberKnife19]

As an applicant, I would be somewhat wary of programs that talk about allowing residents to go into the Holman pathway, but don't have any residents that are doing it (to quote Jerry McGuire..."show me the money!!!").

As in the responses above, I would agree that the Holman pathway is almost exclusively for the productive M.D./Ph.D. whom the Chair is confident will put the time away from clinic to good use. We (U Wisconsin) have not a resident in Holman for the past few years, but one of our current PGY-2's will be doing it next year, largely because he is a well liked, very bright (Harvard M.D./PhD.), hard-working guy and so has an increased probability of bringing something to fruition during his time in the lab. So, based upon what I have read and observed, a large component of being able to do Holman is having the requsite resume, a program that will allow you to do it and obtaining the trust/confidence/blessing of your Chair and other attendings.

 

[Gfunk6]

"private practice in an academic setting."

That may the most optimistic framing of that kind of job I've seen. More commonly it seems to be called 'private practice work at an academic salary', no?

I completely agree. However, it may be the only route to get into saturated markets. Also some new grads appreciate a setting where a major academic center "has their back."

 

[macbergleton]

Neuronix, Gfunk

Your posts from several years ago and your current thoughts support the impression that I've been getting from talking to residents and attendings around the country - that most places aren't very supportive of a basic physician-scientist track.

And, of course, that our career ambitions change as we train.

Now, if I could only get some pointers on how to score a residency spot in the Bay Area ;^)

 

[Neuronix]

Your posts from several years ago and your current thoughts support the impression that I've been getting from talking to residents and attendings around the country - that most places aren't very supportive of a basic physician-scientist track.

Departments are supportive of faculty who generate revenue. Grant funding is very tight and has been for years, hence research is not well supported. If you can bring in sizeable grants, you can write your own ticket. That's far easier said than done. Maybe the funding situation will change in the coming years. Maybe it won't.

Now, if I could only get some pointers on how to score a residency spot in the Bay Area ;^)

AOA and sky high step scores are the best investments towards getting the residency position you want. Some research is helpful, obviously. The more research that is within rad onc, the better off you'll be.

Also, I am overlooking a different bay than the one GFunk trained at. I didn't get an interview where he trained.

 

[deleted4401]

You'd be surprised at the salaries at the satellite centers. It's a nice little hybrid - see patients, access to lectures/education, maybe a resident every now and then, and depending on the institution, decent pay. UPMC satellites pay handsomely and I believe UMaryland and JHH satellites pay reasonably well.
S

 

[medgator]

You'd be surprised at the salaries at the satellite centers. It's a nice little hybrid - see patients, access to lectures/education, maybe a resident every now and then, and depending on the institution, decent pay. UPMC satellites pay handsomely and I believe UMaryland and JHH satellites pay reasonably well.
S

Definitely good starting pay. Where private starts looking good is when you move a few years down the road....