Reaction to psychiatrists doing therapy

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Attending1985

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I’m in an employed position and I’m fortunate to be supported in doing combined treatment. I usually see around 2-3 patients per day for combined treatment. One of my colleagues told me that a psyd in our department asked her if psychiatrists were qualified and could bill for therapy. I’ve always gotten a weird feeling from this person and I have a feeling she’s somewhat threatened by the fact that I do therapy as well. Has anyone else who does combined treatment experienced this?

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Ignore it. Just ain't worth the time to engage in that pissing match.

So many other better grenades to jump on these days.
 
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Ignore it. Just ain't worth the time to engage in that pissing match.

So many other better grenades to jump on these days.
She just took a leadership position in my department and my worry is she’s going to try to push me out of the therapy role
 
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For what it’s worth, I’ve met a lot of people (other clinicians/therapists, I mean) who genuinely didn’t know that we get a lot of psychotherapy training in residency.
 
She just took a leadership position in my department and my worry is she’s going to try to push me out of the therapy role
Ignore it until that happens, really nothing you can do until then. Besides worry, which we know, is one of the greatest enhancers of cardiovascular health, hair growth, and quality sleep. /sarcasm

Decide now what you will do if it happens in the future, so you're already prepared:
  • Accept it
  • Change jobs
  • Push back with the full force of Thor's hammer
*Granted, from the perspective of resource maximization, in Big Box Shop land, a Psychiatrist doing more than 90833 is inefficiency, and shifted those hour long codes over to a MSW LMHC PsyD etc is greater efficiency and a wise move for an admin to push.
 
Yes, and it's very annoying. From a bean counter's perspective it is a bad business decision to support psychiatrists doing combined treatment (that is if course if you don't factor in the fact that a happy psychiatrist is going to stick around and it's expensive to recruit and hire a psychiatrist). I have never gotten any pushback from my boss (a psychiatrist) about it because I comfortably meet my RVU requirements. There are some therapists I work with who appear to be so threatened by it that they almost can't process the fact that some of us do therapy, and act surprised every single time it comes up. One who had an administrative and educational role developed requirements to be a psychotherapy supervisor for the residents that effectively excluded any of the psychiatrists who do combined treatment from supervising the residents with therapy cases. Patently absurd. So you're not alone.

I like sushirolls advice though.
 
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For what it’s worth, I’ve met a lot of people (other clinicians/therapists, I mean) who genuinely didn’t know that we get a lot of psychotherapy training in residency.

Yes, and it's very annoying. From a bean counter's perspective it is a bad business decision to support psychiatrists doing combined treatment (that is if course if you don't factor in the fact that a happy psychiatrist is going to stick around and it's expensive to recruit and hire a psychiatrist). I have never gotten any pushback from my boss (a psychiatrist) about it because I comfortably meet my RVU requirements. There are some therapists I work with who appear to be so threatened by it that they almost can't process the fact that some of us do therapy, and act surprised every single time it comes up. One who had an administrative and educational role developed requirements to be a psychotherapy supervisor for the residents that effectively excluded any of the psychiatrists who do combined treatment from supervising the residents with therapy cases. Patently absurd. So you're not alone.

I like sushirolls advice though.
Yeah I definitely get a vibe from her that it’s a turf war or she feels like I shouldn’t have any psychological input.
 
Why would you? You are just a "prescriber". :rolleyes:
 
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Yes, and it's very annoying. From a bean counter's perspective it is a bad business decision to support psychiatrists doing combined treatment (that is if course if you don't factor in the fact that a happy psychiatrist is going to stick around and it's expensive to recruit and hire a psychiatrist). I have never gotten any pushback from my boss (a psychiatrist) about it because I comfortably meet my RVU requirements. There are some therapists I work with who appear to be so threatened by it that they almost can't process the fact that some of us do therapy, and act surprised every single time it comes up. One who had an administrative and educational role developed requirements to be a psychotherapy supervisor for the residents that effectively excluded any of the psychiatrists who do combined treatment from supervising the residents with therapy cases. Patently absurd. So you're not alone.

I like sushirolls advice though.

So were residents only supervised by psychologists or were LMSW's/master's level therapist supervisors too? Where I'm currently at only psychologists supervise the residents in therapy (psychiatrists previously have, none currently have interest to though) but the only non-doctorate who is really involved is an excellent master's level therapist who focuses on family/couples therapy and has been doing it for 30+ years.
 
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One of my colleagues told me that a psyd in our department asked her if psychiatrists were qualified and could bill for therapy.

It's hilarious how a PsyD can go through years of schooling and be utterly ignorant that some of the most important contributions to therapy and psychology are from psychiatrists.

She just took a leadership position in my department and my worry is she’s going to try to push me out of the therapy role

This just went from funny to sad, that someone so stupid holds a leadership position. Where tf do you work? Academia?


Ignore it until that happens, really nothing you can do until then.

No, no, no, this cannot stand.

OP, if you are motivated and interested in educating the lessers in your department, I suggest you organize a lunch and learn lecture series where everyone in the department picks an influential psychiatrist (Jung, Beck, Stack Sullivan, Kubler Ross, Gunderson, etc.) and gives a talk on them. Personally, I would just tell her I'm referring some patients to her because, "They just wanna talk but it slows me down when I do doctor medication stuff. It's a patient safety issue because they distract me and I might click on the wrong strength of Zoloft and OD someone. Are those shoes Prada? No? Anyhoo, I gotta run and pick up my new Benz."
 
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Sounds like a bad apple. My experience has overwhelming been therapists are thrilled to talk with a psychiatrist who understands therapy. They may be surprised but I can't say I've experienced someone being territorial. Leadership pressuring psychiatrists not to take primary therapy pts, yes, due to the economics but that opinion doesn't seem to discriminate among degrees held.
 
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So were residents only supervised by psychologists or were LMSW's/master's level therapist supervisors too? Where I'm currently at only psychologists supervise the residents in therapy (psychiatrists previously have, none currently have interest to though) but the only non-doctorate who is really involved is an excellent master's level therapist who focuses on family/couples therapy and has been doing it for 30+ years.
Residents are supervised almost exclusively by masters level therapists, some very experienced and qualified and others very green or just bad. They're not excited for the psychologists to do it either which is how you know for sure it's related to personality pathology in the person who has inexplicably been elevated to a place where they can make these bad decisions, rather than any having any logical basis whatsoever. At my last job the general vibe among the management was hostility against psychiatrists who dared to weigh in on treatment decisions outside of "medication management" which is a big part of why I left. One bad apple, whatever. But I don't intend to work at a place that views me as a pill pusher. There's always private practice.
 
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Residents are supervised almost exclusively by masters level therapists, some very experienced and qualified and others very green or just bad. They're not excited for the psychologists to do it either which is how you know for sure it's related to personality pathology in the person who has inexplicably been elevated to a place where they can make these bad decisions, rather than any having any logical basis whatsoever. At my last job the general vibe among the management was hostility against psychiatrists who dared to weigh in on treatment decisions outside of "medication management" which is a big part of why I left. One bad apple, whatever. But I don't intend to work at a place that views me as a pill pusher. There's always private practice.
Was the hostility from therapists, management, other psychiatrists?
 
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Yeah they think our training focuses exclusively on pill pushing.


Also they think most of it is unnecessary.

 
Yeah, those comments ring of turf protectionism to me. Agree that you should just ignore it. IME, psychiatry therapy knowledge been pretty variable. Some psychiatrists I've met were able to wax eloquently about the finer points of psychotherapeutic theory where others don't really have an appreciable understanding of the differences between TF-CBT, PE, and EMDR, for instance. But then again, that's any profession.
 
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That she is unaware that psychiatrists have been qualified to do therapy much longer than psychologists indicates she has no business having an opinion on your work. In fact it wasn't until the late 1980s that psychologists were routinely allowed to train in psychoanalysis (after a lengthy anti-trust law suit).
Just remember -
psychoanalysis - invented by a physician (neurologist)
contemporary hypnosis - developed by a physician,
jungian analysis - developed by a psychiatrist
systematic desensitization - developed by a psychiatrist
cognitive therapy - developed by a psychiatrist
systemic therapy - developed by psychiatrists
structural family therapy - developed by psychiatrists
psychodrama - developed by a psychiatrist
mentalization based treatment - developed by a psychiatrist (in part)
transference focused psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist
interpersonal psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist (in part)
group therapy - developed by a physician
Intensive short term dynamic psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist
Internal Family systems - one of the more prolific trainers is a psychiatrist
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - one of the more prolific trainers is a psychiatrist

I have heard of masters levels therapists complain of psychiatrists not staying in our lane by doing therapy lol. This is very much our lane if we want it to be. Of course, it is also true that the emphasis on psychotherapy both in psychiatric training and practice is much diminished from what it once was. Psychiatrists may especially have a role in providing psychotherapy for somatoform disorders, severe personality disorders, psychosis, bipolar disorder, combined treatment, and psychedelic-assisted therapy. Even when not providing psychotherapy proper, psychological formulation and brief therapeutic interventions enhance our work.
 
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psychoanalysis - invented by a physician (neurologist)
contemporary hypnosis - developed by a physician,
jungian analysis - developed by a psychiatrist
systematic desensitization - developed by a psychiatrist
cognitive therapy - developed by a psychiatrist
systemic therapy - developed by psychiatrists
structural family therapy - developed by psychiatrists
psychodrama - developed by a psychiatrist
mentalization based treatment - developed by a psychiatrist (in part)
transference focused psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist
interpersonal psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist (in part)
group therapy - developed by a physician
Intensive short term dynamic psychotherapy - developed by a psychiatrist
Internal Family systems - one of the more prolific trainers is a psychiatrist
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - one of the more prolific trainers is a psychiatrist

The fact you're putting IFS in the same category as cognitive therapy is not doing your point any great favors. Otherwise, we agree,
 
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How much does the OP know about the training that psychologists have? It's just ignorance, definitely not worth getting upset or frustrated by.
 
How much does the OP know about the training that psychologists have? It's just ignorance, definitely not worth getting upset or frustrated by.
I know the basics of what they are and aren't qualified to do and the difference in education among therapists. The ignorance part is simply annoying but if it's how the ignorance may impact me that is upsetting.
 
It's rather silly to use the historical foundations to justify competence. For example, I would think it would be silly to say that physicians are not competent in the use of Karmen cannulas or behaviorism, even if psychologists invented those approaches.

The easier tact is to remember that physicians really hold the power in most healthcare settings, and ignore her. And, if you get annoyed, there is always the time honored tradition of sending her your most annoying patients (e.g., "Thank you for reminding me of your training. I think this patient would really benefit from someone with your expertise").
 
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I am embarrassed that one of my fellow psychologists is that ignorant. I guess they probably don’t even know the difference between a psychiatrist and a PMHNP who in my experience are the ones who have almost zero training in therapy but want to pretend to do it the most.
 
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I am embarrassed that one of my fellow psychologists is that ignorant. I guess they probably don’t even know the difference between a psychiatrist and a PMHNP who in my experience are the ones who have almost zero training in therapy but want to pretend to do it the most.
I’ve never seen a pmhnp doing therapy does that happen?
 
The only understandable reason (though I don't agree with it) would be the financial aspects of billing. That aside, I can't fathom there's not more than enough therapy work to go around. I mean, I might dream of that on days I look at our waitlist, but... idk, original post also sounds like possibly a he-said/she-said/they-said etc. situation - the psyd didn't say it directly to you so you don't know the context and tone of voice etc. Benefit of the doubt, maybe it was said with genuine ignorance and curiosity? Maybe a very skewed, small n of psychiatrists with v poor people skills or training that they have had relevant experience with? Likely not, but a possibility, perhaps? I agree there's more worthy grenades around.
 
The real enemies to psychiatric therapy are the forces of Finance: Student debt, cost of training, the bureaucratic insurance industrial war machine. I mean. It's hard to make an argument the cost of physician therapy is worth it. Or that therapy is even something people not in the top 1% of SES even consider.

When I was applying to different market localities after residency it seemed like it was a notable pattern that job descriptions of med manager-rx writer to psychiatry therapy mapped onto a wealth/economic gradient of those communities with the additional layer of relative culturual value of psychotherapy.

I'd be curious what other people's geographic market experience is. Some of the private practice threads were confusing in the variability in our experiences. I've never been explained as to what accounts for this. I've just wondered.

I'm determined to do therapy because I don't find enough joy or meaning in med management only. But between us, the phd/psyD's, and even the LCSW's, the LMFT's, and the psychiatric NP's, I have this odd feeling, that when it comes to psychotherapy, we're all just jockeying to serve the same top 1% SES people, whether in the cash or private insurance market.
 
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The real enemies to psychiatric therapy are the forces of Finance: Student debt, cost of training, the bureaucratic insurance industrial war machine. I mean. It's hard to make an argument the cost of physician therapy is worth it. Or that therapy is even something people not in the top 1% of SES even consider.

When I was applying to different market localities after residency it seemed like it was a notable pattern that job descriptions of med manager-rx writer to psychiatry therapy mapped onto a wealth/economic gradient of those communities with the additional layer of relative culturual value of psychotherapy.

I'd be curious what other people's geographic market experience is. Some of the private practice threads were confusing in the variability in our experiences. I've never been explained as to what accounts for this. I've just wondered.

I'm determined to do therapy because I don't find enough joy or meaning in med management only. But between us, the phd/psyD's, and even the LCSW's, the LMFT's, and the psychiatric NP's, I have this odd feeling, that when it comes to psychotherapy, we're all just jockeying to serve the same top 1% SES people, whether in the cash or private insurance market.
I would say it’s the top 10% in high CoL areas as people realize that large facilities often provide terrible care due to clinician turnover and incompetent admin. A number of my new patients were ghosted by their previous clinic after their MD or NP left and they did not have another to transfer to. Literally they stopped returning calls and could not get refills. Same story from different patients seen at different allegedly “reputable “ large practices. I thought it couldn’t be true initially…
 
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I’ve never seen a pmhnp doing therapy does that happen?
I haven’t seen it happen either, but I have seen them call giving the patient advice on how to live their lives supportive therapy and then bill for it. Many of the practitioners I have worked with confuse what is allowed legally regarding scope of practice with competency.
 
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I’ve never seen a pmhnp doing therapy does that happen?
I have a patient who says she is seeing a PMHNP for therapy but that the NP specifically decided to get a bunch of extra training in therapy (sounds like she might have done the psychodynamic program at the local psychoanalytic institute.)
 
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Yeah, outside the rare exception of an np already having a masters level therapy degree, the therapy being provided is at best giving advice along the lines of "this is what I would do" or "this is what I did when I had your same problem" which is rife with boundary crossings and generally not helpful and potentially harmful. I had an np doing "therapy" telling a patient how beautiful she was to help her self-esteem!
 
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The real enemies to psychiatric therapy are the forces of Finance: Student debt, cost of training, the bureaucratic insurance industrial war machine. I mean. It's hard to make an argument the cost of physician therapy is worth it. Or that therapy is even something people not in the top 1% of SES even consider.

When I was applying to different market localities after residency it seemed like it was a notable pattern that job descriptions of med manager-rx writer to psychiatry therapy mapped onto a wealth/economic gradient of those communities with the additional layer of relative culturual value of psychotherapy.

I'd be curious what other people's geographic market experience is. Some of the private practice threads were confusing in the variability in our experiences. I've never been explained as to what accounts for this. I've just wondered.

I'm determined to do therapy because I don't find enough joy or meaning in med management only. But between us, the phd/psyD's, and even the LCSW's, the LMFT's, and the psychiatric NP's, I have this odd feeling, that when it comes to psychotherapy, we're all just jockeying to serve the same top 1% SES people, whether in the cash or private insurance market.

This is disheartening to me. So much creep. It's feels compounded today as I learned about ED docs leaving EM to do ketamine with just a BDI to establish a diagnosis. cash pay $. The same will probably happen with psychedelics with a proliferation of SW and NP clinics. How did it come to this? When other specifies have such groundbreaking interventions, they have increased productivity and more value. Feels like more and more people are just eating our lunch. I can't jump ship and start a derm practice, not that I want to, but then what is my role/value as a psychiatrist...and I mean psychiatrist, not prescriber or mental health professional - ughh, we don't say optical health professional or gastrointestinal health professional. Those specialties retain a sense of exclusive expertise.
 
There's creep because we aren't even coming close to approaching coverage of the need even with prescribing PsyDs, NPs and EM physicians running ketamine shops. We will all be fine. Nobody can fill their positions.
 
This is disheartening to me. So much creep. It's feels compounded today as I learned about ED docs leaving EM to do ketamine with just a BDI to establish a diagnosis. cash pay $. The same will probably happen with psychedelics with a proliferation of SW and NP clinics. How did it come to this? When other specifies have such groundbreaking interventions, they have increased productivity and more value. Feels like more and more people are just eating our lunch. I can't jump ship and start a derm practice, not that I want to, but then what is my role/value as a psychiatrist...and I mean psychiatrist, not prescriber or mental health professional - ughh, we don't say optical health professional or gastrointestinal health professional. Those specialties retain a sense of exclusive expertise.
Oddly creep doesn't bother me. Either you offer something of value to people or you don't. I think there's still room for someone who puts their heart and should and effort to be useful and as possible while broadly considering the vast domains of knowledge that pertain to the human endeavor. I'd rather compete, focus on providing value, and actually thinking about ways to lower the cost and reaching exactly the right niche in which I uniquely excel. I think we should all do this. Even by just attempting this you're already likely offering more value than most.

To be honest I don't know if I would ever trust myself to be confident in my ability to help people with words. I'd rather be unsure. Struggling for the improbable opportunity to be helpful. And humble about putting my work exactly where I seem to be. And less where it doesn't seem to be fruitful.

Also as odd is that the more active I become in searching for engagements that I feel excited and enthusiastic about is also where I appear to be helpful. Which is why I suspect we should all find our own deeply resonate hyper-niches.
 
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I’ve never seen a pmhnp doing therapy does that happen?
No shortage of "how do I bill for therapy in my practice" posts and threads from MLPs so yea absolutely. For as many people out there who think Psychiatry is "take some pills, get better" there are people who think therapy is "talk about things".
 
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Oddly creep doesn't bother me. Either you offer something of value to people or you don't.

That would make sense if healthcare was a system without extreme information asymmetry where people can barely tell what medication they're on right now, much less what different healthcare providers actually do.

This is also a very marketing/consumer based approach that works fine when you're trying to sell Cheetos and don't actually give a crap about what happens to your consumer long term. Not so fine if you're actually trying to balance beneficence, nonmaleficence, autonomy and justice which can run into a patient's perception of what would immediately feel good for them.
 
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For a while I've been frustrated with NPs and prescribing PsyDs, and who knows maybe a DSM AI bot in the future; I've been more focused on tearing them down and insulating myself. But now I'm coming around to the idea rising above. Just like how I still go to an accountant for their expertise vs using turbotax, or I'll go to a barber who works at a salon vs the local shop staffed by college students. But I'm at a loss as to how to do it ethically in psych while still making what I consider to be good money for my skills and expertise. I cannot churn pts.
 
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Oddly creep doesn't bother me. Either you offer something of value to people or you don't. I think there's still room for someone who puts their heart and should and effort to be useful and as possible while broadly considering the vast domains of knowledge that pertain to the human endeavor. I'd rather compete, focus on providing value, and actually thinking about ways to lower the cost and reaching exactly the right niche in which I uniquely excel. I think we should all do this. Even by just attempting this you're already likely offering more value than most.

To be honest I don't know if I would ever trust myself to be confident in my ability to help people with words. I'd rather be unsure. Struggling for the improbable opportunity to be helpful. And humble about putting my work exactly where I seem to be. And less where it doesn't seem to be fruitful.

Also as odd is that the more active I become in searching for engagements that I feel excited and enthusiastic about is also where I appear to be helpful. Which is why I suspect we should all find our own deeply resonate hyper-niches.
Does offering Adderall 20mg TID after a 10 minute zoom visit provide value? Because it certainly seems like some venture capital/MBA lead groups employing an army of NPs have found a market for that very service. Healthcare does not respond like selling widgets for so many different reasons that people have literally written books about it. Sure you can keep doing what you are doing and put your head down and pretend nothing else is in your locus of control, I don't that is an entirely unreasonable proposition. It would hard to imagine it not being equally (and likely more laudable) a position to speak out about the problems associated with commoditizing medicine to the detriment of the patient.
 
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No shortage of "how do I bill for therapy in my practice" posts and threads from MLPs so yea absolutely. For as many people out there who think Psychiatry is "take some pills, get better" there are people who think therapy is "talk about things".
PMHNP here. Therapy is considered to be within our scope of practice. About half of my clinical hours were devoted to therapy, which was frustrating because we already receive so frustratingly few hours training in psychopharm. Would I feel competent to do psychotherapy? No way, not without a lot of extra training.
 
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Whether something is within scope or not isn't really relevant though. It's about comfort level and competence.

Can I do surgery? Yes, it's in my scope. Would you want me to? No. The danger isn't necessarily whether you can, it's whether you should.

As you said, when you get lots of exposure in one area, others suffer accordingly. Not everyone has that kind of awareness.
 
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Within your "scope" only means a nursing lobby was able to convince state legislators to sign certain laws. Has nothing to do with whether you can or should do therapy. Half of 500 hours is only about 6-7 weeks of full time work. It's sad to hear this is what np training is like. And your program was dysfunctional enough they said half of your 500 hours is going to be therapy when nps do not get employed in therapy providing roles? Sounds completely misguided...
That was my point. Just because I can doesn't mean I should...
 
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That was my point. Just because I can doesn't mean I should...
the concerning part is it's somehow up to the individual to regulate themselves, despite abhorrently inadequate training.
 
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That would make sense if healthcare was a system without extreme information asymmetry where people can barely tell what medication they're on right now, much less what different healthcare providers actually do.

This is also a very marketing/consumer based approach that works fine when you're trying to sell Cheetos and don't actually give a crap about what happens to your consumer long term. Not so fine if you're actually trying to balance beneficence, nonmaleficence, autonomy and justice which can run into a patient's perception of what would immediately feel good for them.
That's a fair point about information asymmetry. But why not look at that as a niche to fill yourself. Why not demonstrate command of your knowledge and insight value. I guess the way I'm thinking about this does not easily map onto managed care model or single payer systems. Which... I suppose, is why I'm looking for an escape vessel from them. If we are in a system that doesn't monetize the slight incremental value add steps of a lifelong learning process and a more substantial, rich, and robust training milieu then I guess we should price ourselves out of the Cheetoh business to extent that we can. But it seems to me, we have to put something more sophisticated on offer to do so.

Does offering Adderall 20mg TID after a 10 minute zoom visit provide value? Because it certainly seems like some venture capital/MBA lead groups employing an army of NPs have found a market for that very service. Healthcare does not respond like selling widgets for so many different reasons that people have literally written books about it. Sure you can keep doing what you are doing and put your head down and pretend nothing else is in your locus of control, I don't that is an entirely unreasonable proposition. It would hard to imagine it not being equally (and likely more laudable) a position to speak out about the problems associated with commoditizing medicine to the detriment of the patient.

No it doesn't offer much value to people who value a healthy, meaningful life. But... if the VC profits are saying something then it does seem to offer lower price points for receiving ADHD treatment. Are we going to yell at the sky for the weather because working people strapped for resources are taking the lowest cost option for what THEY think they need. If not, then it seems to me that competing for lower price point in that market is a lose-lose game. I just emptied out my panel of patients of transactional ADHD treatment clients after working them into a sustainable, safe, but static treatment plan. My stance there is to remain a player congratulator and player facilitator and told them straight up that the value I could provide them in acculturating them into a safe, sustainable, healthy lifestyle to absorb the physiological stress burden of stimulants and to help them with executive function supportive strategies is a front loaded value proposition that had been delivered. They now had the toolkit to protect themselves from unethical *****s with script pads. Value equation complete. I want to focus on more engaging problems where incremental value stored up over the course of my training and the constant pursuit of understanding the complexities of human beings remains a good value offer. For those simple ADHD clients who will abide monthly visits where I can have paid time to solve stimulant supply chain dynamics and steward them through it then I have kept those, and some those we have discovered more complex things to work on.

I hear you about the challenge of selling widgets in a controlled, artificial market. The margin compression of investing in a career in psychiatry is still in it's decay function phase, although it seems to have kept up with inflation and specialty renumerative ranking for all involved. I would imagine this would reach some low plateau around some fixed factor above the salaries of our clinical competition within this controlled market. And yet still many of them will open up some niche for themselves ambitious to be outliers. Or for the same reasons I would do it. For creative, professional freedom. So it's an existential puzzle for sure.

Just because I'm not cut out for That 24/7 Real Health Care Bureaucratic War Life, I don't think that means I'm head in sand.

Unless, by sand, you mean tunneling my way out of this prison. Through getting busy living instead of dying a slow existential death here. To paraphrase the line in Shawshank Redemption.

PS. Can we just pause to observe the irony of us talking both sides of our book in this thread: "How dare they assume we can't offer therapy," followed by "How dare they assume they can offer medication services and therapy."
 
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For a while I've been frustrated with NPs and prescribing PsyDs, and who knows maybe a DSM AI bot in the future; I've been more focused on tearing them down and insulating myself. But now I'm coming around to the idea rising above. Just like how I still go to an accountant for their expertise vs using turbotax, or I'll go to a barber who works at a salon vs the local shop staffed by college students. But I'm at a loss as to how to do it ethically in psych while still making what I consider to be good money for my skills and expertise. I cannot churn pts.
I work mainly with patients with severe mental health conditions who have access to resources to pay extra. My patients have family members who are doctors, lawyers, or in leadership positions in large business. This population also needs and benefits from good psychiatrists and we have to refer many of them to PMHNPs because of lack of psychiatrists so there are opportunities available. We also charge a flat monthly rate for bundled services. If I had a skilled and knowledgeable psychiatrist on board and they provided more than the 15 minute monthly med check I could probably charge an extra grand a month per patient. Most of that would go the psychiatrist because my business philosophy is to provide excellent care with excellent employees and we can all make some money doing it as opposed to lowest expensed highest volume.
 
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I work mainly with patients with severe mental health conditions who have access to resources to pay extra. My patients have family members who are doctors, lawyers, or in leadership positions in large business. This population also needs and benefits from good psychiatrists and we have to refer many of them to PMHNPs because of lack of psychiatrists so there are opportunities available. We also charge a flat monthly rate for bundled services. If I had a skilled and knowledgeable psychiatrist on board and they provided more than the 15 minute monthly med check I could probably charge an extra grand a month per patient. Most of that would go the psychiatrist because my business philosophy is to provide excellent care with excellent employees and we can all make some money doing it as opposed to lowest expensed highest volume.
That's an attractive mindset. I wish you all the success in the world!
 
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I have no idea why you need to pseudointellectualize "I should be able to prescribe what I want to whoever I want" but psychiatry isn't about meeting market demand to prescribe Adderall recreationally because people want to focus better.

It's dangerous practice and there's a reason there's a time and place for medical intervention. Pathologizing the human experience when there's no disorder of function is irresponsible medicine and there's no other way to spin it.

Diagnosing a mental illness in someone who doesn't have it is predatory and damaging, and pretending it's providing a service is like saying sex trafficking brings love and hedonism to markets that can't otherwise find it.
 
the concerning part is it's somehow up to the individual to regulate themselves, despite abhorrently inadequate training.
I don't think there are many NPs doing true therapy. They may do brief talk therapy and bill it as an add on, sure, but most pysch NPs didn't enter this field wanting to do therapy.

I do plan to pursue training this year for some specific MODALITIES, CBT-I (at UPenn) and brainspotting, because I want to be able to do more for my patients than push pills. There's almost no one in my metro area offering CBT-I and I think there's a need for it.
 
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I don't think there are many NPs doing true therapy. They may do brief talk therapy and bill it as an add on, sure, but most pysch NPs didn't enter this field wanting to do therapy.

I do plan to pursue training this year for some specific MODALITIES, CBT-I (at UPenn) and brainspotting, because I want to be able to do more for my patients than push pills. There's almost no one in my metro area offering CBT-I and I think there's a need for it.
Is brain spotting really anything but quackery?
 
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I don't think there are many NPs doing true therapy. They may do brief talk therapy and bill it as an add on, sure, but most pysch NPs didn't enter this field wanting to do therapy.

I do plan to pursue training this year for some specific MODALITIES, CBT-I (at UPenn) and brainspotting, because I want to be able to do more for my patients than push pills. There's almost no one in my metro area offering CBT-I and I think there's a need for it.
Yes we all know they're defrauding insurance to boost up reimbursement.

Describing e/m psychiatry as "pushing pills" is really disheartening to hear from someone like you.
 
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Yes we all know they're defrauding insurance to boost up reimbursement.

Describing e/m psychiatry as "pushing pills" is really disheartening to hear from someone like you.
I didn't mean it literally like that. I would prefer to see patients be able to cure their insomnia instead of treating it with medication. Of course insomnia meds do have their place.

I'll do some more research but from what I have read, literature supports brainspotting as effective as EMDR.
 
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