read my LOR from work?

[Qamar3212]

does anyone want to read my lor from my job? its a non-clinical job that I have been working for the past 4.5 years or so. I was given it to "change'/ add stuff if I wanted before it is submitted to my school but I can't tell if the letter is sufficent or If i should change it. Would love other opinions.
if anyone can please pm me.
Thank you.

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[jih]

Ummmmmm........


.......

 

[maroonspinstress]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're going to get any takers here (or at least, I hope you don't). I know I sound preachy, but that's really unfair to other applicants.

You get your chance to write your own LOR once per cycle: your personal statement. All other LORs should come directly from the writers. Plus, I assume you waived, or will waive, your right to read LORs. Even if you didn't, you shouldn't be writing any part of it.

 

[Grace184]

Yeah usually if you write any part of it, it's the first draft, then THEY edit and submit it. I waived my rights, but mine sent me a copy bc she felt I left out a lot of positive things and wanted to me to see that I still had pts from a years ago still asking about me (I'm in pharmacy). She wanted me to see I was underestimating myself.

But them writing and you editing....I would send it back to them after you edit and ask them if it seems appropriate and ask them to make any final changes, then have them submit the letter. You should really never have or submit the the final. This is really not appropriate.....

Edit: I wouldn't change anything they wrote. I would tell them its unethical to do so. Send it back and ask them to submit themselves.

 

[maroonspinstress]

Yeah usually if you write any part of it, it's the first draft, then THEY edit and submit it. I waived my rights, but mine sent me a copy bc she felt I left out a lot of positive things and wanted to me to see that I still had pts from a years ago still asking about me (I'm in pharmacy). She wanted me to see I was underestimating myself.

Yeah, this is a hard situation. Usually, I avoid this problem by meeting with the writer beforehand with a "cheat sheet" reminding them of things I've done. But I know this is a gray area--my premed adviser stands firmly on the "don't even look at it" side, but is okay with the letter writer asking something like, "Hey, is this sentence accurate or did X, Y, Z instead?" or even a paragraph. But I think it's never necessary to read the whole thing.

Edit: I wouldn't change anything they wrote. I would tell them its unethical to do so. Send it back and ask them to submit themselves.

I agree, though you might put yourself in an awkward position by saying "it's unethical" since that will imply that you think they are unethical too for asking you to do it--not true, sometimes the letter writers are just trying to be helpful. I would just say "I trust your judgement! I don't need to make any edits, please send as is." or something like that.

 

[Cytokine2014]

Yeah, med schools do not want evaluations that aren't confidential. They put more stock in ones that are. This is pretty unethical and I would tell your recommender not to send it to you in the future.

There's a reason you waive the right to see these. Your own evaluation of yourself isn't what they're looking for.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Edit; the troll strikes again.

 

[Grace184]

.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Yeah usually if you write any part of it, it's the first draft, then THEY edit and submit it. I waived my rights, but mine sent me a copy bc she felt I left out a lot of positive things and wanted to me to see that I still had pts from a years ago still asking about me (I'm in pharmacy). She wanted me to see I was underestimating myself.

But them writing and you editing....I would send it back to them after you edit and ask them if it seems appropriate and ask them to make any final changes, then have them submit the letter. You should really never have or submit the the final. This is really not appropriate.....

Edit: I wouldn't change anything they wrote. I would tell them its unethical to do so. Send it back and ask them to submit themselves.

Just edit in google docs, or MS word with suggested edits. I don't think it is unethical at all. If they agree with what is in the letter, then they endorse all of those ideas when they send it in on your behalf. Unethical would be forging their letterhead and writing the letter without their consent.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I guess I don't really see it as unethical.

The point of waiving your right to see it is so that the writer can feel comfortable writing an honest assessment. If they feel like they can write an honest assessment and let you see it, that's their call. That's not likely to change the outcome much. You're waiving your "right" to see it,ie you can't force them to show it to you. You aren't waiving any possibility or opportunity to see it.

OP, you can review it and make suggested changes and then they can re review it to see if they agree and then they can submit it. By submitting it, they are endorsing what's in it so its on them to make sure they agree with the content. Of course you should be honest and accurate with your edits.

 

[mehc012]

I waived my right to see my LOR, and the writer still sent it to me for a similar purpose as OP's. I stuck to fixing a few small grammar/spelling mistakes and did not alter content, even though they had ended up emphasizing something totally different from what I had been hoping. I still kick myself occasionally for not having a discussion ahead of time (we spoke that morning about the letter) about what I was hoping their letter would talk about - in my mind, that is the appropriate way to influence the actual content/focus of the letter, not adding in tidbits of my own after the fact.

 

[maroonspinstress]

At the end of the day, the writer's signature is on that paper meaning that they endorsed/agree with everything that is said in the letter.

Not necessarily true. I know of professors who, precisely because they don't feel very strongly about the student (or because they're busy), don't want to write the letter. But, they don't want to refuse the request, so they ask the student to write it. An extreme scenario, but it happens, and it goes to show that someone can sign out of apathy, and not endorsement or agreement.

I understand why people don't think it's unethical, and I also see it as a grey area, especially in situations where the writer is just trying to be helpful and actually does like you. Ultimately, I know this thing happens all the time, to small (editing grammar) or large (writing it yourself) degrees. It is what it is.

But here's the important point: regardless of what I or others "think" is unethical, I have seen two situations where the pre-med committee refused to endorse the student after finding out they had edited or written their LORs. Pre-med committees are supposed to endorse something like "These LORs are confidential" and if they can't check that box, they either explain why in the committee letter or not write at all.

So, we can all individually disagree about whether or not it's unethical, and if people want to do it, they better not get caught. But I wouldn't take the risk, personally.

 

[mehc012]

Not necessarily true. I know of professors who, precisely because they don't feel very strongly about the student (or because they're busy), don't want to write the letter. But, they don't want to refuse the request, so they ask the student to write it. An extreme scenario, but it happens, and it goes to show that someone can sign out of apathy, and not endorsement or agreement.

I understand why people don't think it's unethical, and I also see it as a grey area, especially in situations where the writer is just trying to be helpful and actually does like you. Ultimately, I know this thing happens all the time, to small (editing grammar) or large (writing it yourself) degrees. It is what it is.

But here's the important point: regardless of what I or others "think" is unethical, I have seen two situations where the pre-med committee refused to endorse the student after finding out they had edited or written their LORs. Pre-med committees are supposed to endorse something like "These LORs are confidential" and if they can't check that box, they either explain why in the committee letter or not write at all.

So, we can all individually disagree about whether or not it's unethical, and if people want to do it, they better not get caught. But I wouldn't take the risk, personally.

Can't do much when your LOR writer simply sends you a copy and says "hey, any last comments before I send it in?" Regardless of whether you participate, your letter is no longer confidential. That's not 'getting away with' anything, it is entirely your LOR writer's choice.

I marked 'I waive my rights to see the letter" when I requested it of my writers. If they chose to show them to me anyway, without my prompting or asking, I see no reason why I should be punished for that. They had no obligation to show it to me, and they knew that while writing it, and that is the crucial part. If my committee had asked, I would have reiterated that I waived my rights to view.

 

[Gandyy]

I want to know how some adcoms feel about this writing your own letter issue.

 

[vellez]

I specifically told my letter writers NOT to send them to me, and some still did. I didn't read them. I didn't want to read them.

 

[mehc012]

I specifically told my letter writers NOT to send them to me, and some still did. I didn't read them. I didn't WANT to read them.

That's fair - I can totally understand not wanting to read - but if anyone actually cared, they wouldn't quailfy as confidential. You had possession of the file, can't change that.
Fortunately, no one is hunting people down to see if they read their own LORs!

 

[Cytokine2014]

I mean, the other part of this that is unethical is that it's supposed to be an honest assessment of the candidate from the recommenders point of view. Not everyone has the chance to write their own LORs and this creates an opportunity disparity that's also very problematic.

 

[Gandyy]

I mean, the other part of this that is unethical is that it's supposed to be an honest assessment of the candidate from the recommenders point of view. Not everyone has the chance to write their own LORs and this creates an opportunity disparity that's also very problematic.

Thats my issue with it, but apparently writing your own letters is common practice.

 

[mehc012]

I mean, the other part of this that is unethical is that it's supposed to be an honest assessment of the candidate from the recommenders point of view. Not everyone has the chance to write their own LORs and this creates an opportunity disparity that's also very problematic.

Not everyone has the chance to have an excellent writer craft their LORs, nor a Nobel prize winner, etc. LORs are not fair, they're not equal, and that's already expected. A certain portion of life is luck, and that's just the way it is.

Personally, I consider writing your own LOR to be a burden, not an opportunity. My boss will say nicer things about me than I would about myself. That's just how it goes. I was lucky enough that none of my writers asked me to do it for them. Other students may be better at singing their own praises, and perhaps they get lucky enough to be asked to do so. Luck of the draw.

 

[Gandyy]

Not everyone has the chance to have an excellent writer craft their LORs, nor a Nobel prize winner, etc. LORs are not fair, they're not equal, and that's already expected. A certain portion of life is luck, and that's just the way it is.

Personally, I consider writing your own LOR to be a burden, not an opportunity. My boss will say nicer things about me than I would about myself. That's just how it goes. I was lucky enough that none of my writers asked me to do it for them. Other students may be better at singing their own praises, and perhaps they get lucky enough to be asked to do so. Luck of the draw.

I'll say that a good amount of admissions is luck yea. There are certain interviewers that may hate what you have to say, but if you get another one that likes you, well you get accepted.

Even standardized tests have some luck involved.

All you can do is try to beat the bad luck as hard as you can. Then life problems, so forth. Life is indeed some luck.

 

[maroonspinstress]

Can't do much when your LOR writer simply sends you a copy and says "hey, any last comments before I send it in?" Regardless of whether you participate, your letter is no longer confidential. That's not 'getting away with' anything, it is entirely your LOR writer's choice.

The two situations I brought up were both cases where the student edited paragraphs or wrote the whole thing. Your situation is much less concerning.

The "waived rights" versus "but they offered to let me see it of their own free will" thing comes up a lot. Waived rights, you're correct, just means you can't demand to see the letter (since you normally do have the right to view your academic record by FERPA). If they send you the letter and you either ignore it until apps are done or read it right away, I doubt that anyone would hold you accountable/punish you.

But I think editing, especially with substantial content changes/additions, is starting to cross that grey area where you might get in trouble--grammar, less so, but I'm still not sure. One thing students could do instead is to say something like "You focused a lot on X, but could you highlight a little more of Y?" and have the letter writer fill in the words themselves. It would also sound more natural and in their style of writing

I came across a thread from 2012 where LizzyM says its completely fine and not unethical. I can't find the link right now though, but its out there if you search for it I'm sure.

I would believe that. But not everyone agrees with her, (see my comments about the pre-med committee refusals to endorse). Again, I'm really not trying to be preachy. I know most people in these situations are put on the spot by the LOR writers and aren't trying to game the system--I was in that situation myself and had to avoid some hot water early on! I'm just relating what I've heard and seen happen so people can be careful with what they do.

EDIT: Found the LizzyM post. She is clearly fine with it, and I'm not in a position to dispute that. But as with all opinions, take it for what it is: one opinion.

 

[mehc012]

The two situations I brought up were both cases where the student edited paragraphs or wrote the whole thing. Your situation is much less concerning.

The "waived rights" versus "but they offered to let me see it of their own free will" thing comes up a lot. Waived rights, you're correct, just means you can't demand to see the letter (since you normally do have the right to view your academic record by FERPA). If they send you the letter and you either ignore it until apps are done or read it right away, I doubt that anyone would hold you accountable/punish you.

But I think editing, especially with substantial content changes/additions, is starting to cross that grey area where you might get in trouble--grammar, less so, but I'm still not sure. One thing students could do instead is to say something like "You focused a lot on X, but could you highlight a little more of Y?" and have the letter writer fill in the words themselves. It would also sound more natural and in their style of writing

I would believe that. But not everyone agrees with her, (see my comments about the pre-med committee refusals to endorse). Again, I'm really not trying to be preachy. I know most people in these situations are put on the spot by the LOR writers and aren't trying to game the system--I was in that situation myself and had to avoid some hot water early on! I'm just relating what I've heard and seen happen so people can be careful with what they do.

EDIT: Found the LizzyM post. She is clearly fine with it, and I'm not in a position to dispute that. But as with all opinions, take it for what it is: one opinion.

All I'm saying is that both situations are clearly no longer confidential. If they are making a discrete statement, e.g. "the letters are confidential", it's either true or not, no grey area. That is part of why most of the time you see the more vague "waive my rights to view" statement...which does not disallow any of the behavior discussed in this thread.

 

[maroonspinstress]

All I'm saying is that both situations are clearly no longer confidential. If they are making a discrete statement, e.g. "the letters are confidential", it's either true or not, no grey area. That is part of why most of the time you see the more vague "waive my rights to view" statement...which does not disallow any of the behavior discussed in this thread.

Pre-med committees are supposed to endorse something like "These LORs are confidential" and if they can't check that box, they either explain why in the committee letter or not write at all.

Yup! No point arguing semantics here about the meaning of confidentially. I'll back up a bit and clarify that I don't know what the actual wording is, whether it's "confidential" or "waived rights." I had just paraphrased what my pre-med adviser told me. I do know that in two instances where students were given permission by letter writers to edit or write the LOR, and the pre-med committee found out, outcomes were not good.

 

[maroonspinstress]

All I'm saying is that both situations are clearly no longer confidential. If they are making a discrete statement, e.g. "the letters are confidential", it's either true or not, no grey area. That is part of why most of the time you see the more vague "waive my rights to view" statement...which does not disallow any of the behavior discussed in this thread.

Oh and on an unrelated note Re: your avatar, River Tam is one of my favorite TV show characters of all time, and that quote is one of her best. =]