Realistically, what other options aside from medicine?

[JPSmyth]

Let's say that I planned my whole college career around getting into medical school. I have a BS in bio, with a ~3.99 GPA. Research experience, volunteering, internships, the whole nine... Now if I decide NOT go to into medicine, what options do I have?

I know that everybody says don't go into medicine for the money, because the hours and workload will kill you. Okay so theoretically I won't go into medicine but I still want to have a good salary.
Investment banker (more competitive than medical school), you work 100+ hour weeks. Lawyer at a top firm (also more competitive than medical school), you work 80+ hour weeks as well.
The AMA publishes their info on residencies for a bunch of specialties that average less than 55 hours a week, and these same specialties have median incomes of over 200,000 as an attending. So medicine really isn't such a bad gig when you think about it, right?

Don't get me wrong, medicine is cool and interesting, and I would probably enjoy it more than other jobs. But I'm not insanely passionate about it. I don't dream of saving people's lives. Yes, helping people is a plus, but I really want a job that is secure, pays well, and does not require insane hours.

If anybody has an alternative to getting an MD, then please let me know. Because I truly feel like it is the only option that I have right now. Thanks a lot guys.

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[FindMeOnTheLinks]

MS or PhD in biomedical engineering --> generally great salary, involves science and bettering humanity without the downsides of medicine

MBA --> healthcare administration

Straight PhD in a bio field or whatever --> professor

You could also get your MD and work in pharma

 

[DokterMom]

Honestly, I know of no EASY way to earn big bucks (over $200K/year) --

Plenty of sales people do it, but I'd hardly call what they do easy, and only the best earn that kind of money. You can do it in tech or engineering if you're good. Law - If you're good and went to the right school. Investment banking and/or consulting, but the hours suck.

Honestly, with a medical degree, your chances of earning over $200K are better than with virtually any other degree on the planet, and you have the option of trimming your hours back if you want to.

 

[LizzyM]

secure, pays well, good hours

Pick two.

 

[thegooddoctor2015]

Allied Health positions...Google it...lots of hospital jobs in health care

 

[drjay16]

Investment banking isn't that hard to get into if you go to a top tier private school and do an internship around junior year. If you can go to a top law school you will have some options too, although the market is hurting for all law grads now.
You can also try and go the engineering route. Lots of 3 month programs that will land you a 6 figure salary after completion.


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[RedPhys]

If you decided not to go into medicine, well, then, what are you interested in? Surely, you have (other) interests?

 

[md-2020]

Investment banking isn't that hard to get into if you go to a top tier private school and do an internship around junior year. If you can go to a top law school you will have some options too, although the market is hurting for all law grads now.
You can also try and go the engineering route. Lots of 3 month programs that will land you a 6 figure salary after completion.


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Can confirm for finance. I went to a target school, majored in econ, interned, the whole 9 yards. Lots of lucrative offers near graduation. Good hours, of course not. But relatively secure and very very good pay out of the gate.

Engineering isn't as high paying as us laymen are led to believe. Most grads (unless specific such as petroleum engineering) don't hit 100k.

I'd imagine if pay is important to you IB is best alternative. Can't speak to non-target schools such as state flagships etc though.

 

[drjay16]

Can confirm for finance. I went to a target school, majored in econ, interned, the whole 9 yards. Lots of lucrative offers near graduation. Good hours, of course not. But relatively secure and very very good pay out of the gate.

I'd imagine if pay is important to you IB is best alternative. Can't speak to non-target schools such as state flagships etc though.

Yep. I had about 5-6 offers before I even graduated.
Ideal schools would be Stanford/HYP/Columbia/Penn/MIT. Those were the most popular from my experience. I'm sure there are some other privates in there too. It's crazy, but top public schools like UCLA/Berkeley/UMich have a tough time cracking into IB/consulting. At least for the top firms.


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[Spector1]

Dental, PA, Pharm are all good alternatives

 

[JPSmyth]

I'm still going to apply to medical school. And I'm sure that there are some specialties that I would really like. @LizzyM what do you think about a specialty like PM&R? I've heard you don't need stellar board scores, the residency only has an average of 54 hours on call per week (as opposed to 75-80 for surgery and IM), with 1.6 days off per week on average. And the median salary is listed at 241k. Why isn't this a more competitive specialty?

 

[Lil Mick]

Physician's assistants have good hours, good pay, allow you to help people, and use your degree well without years of study and residency...

 

[Goro]

Lab tech
Research tech
Clinical techs, like Xray, ultrasound, veterinary or pulmonary
Science writing
Lab mgr
Sales
teaching

Let's say that I planned my whole college career around getting into medical school. I have a BS in bio, with a ~3.99 GPA. Research experience, volunteering, internships, the whole nine... Now if I decide NOT go to into medicine, what options do I have?

I know that everybody says don't go into medicine for the money, because the hours and workload will kill you. Okay so theoretically I won't go into medicine but I still want to have a good salary.
Investment banker (more competitive than medical school), you work 100+ hour weeks. Lawyer at a top firm (also more competitive than medical school), you work 80+ hour weeks as well.
The AMA publishes their info on residencies for a bunch of specialties that average less than 55 hours a week, and these same specialties have median incomes of over 200,000 as an attending. So medicine really isn't such a bad gig when you think about it, right?

Don't get me wrong, medicine is cool and interesting, and I would probably enjoy it more than other jobs. But I'm not insanely passionate about it. I don't dream of saving people's lives. Yes, helping people is a plus, but I really want a job that is secure, pays well, and does not require insane hours.

If anybody has an alternative to getting an MD, then please let me know. Because I truly feel like it is the only option that I have right now. Thanks a lot guys.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think you guys are extremely myopic in terms of focusing on professions and banking. From my legal background I worked with plenty of people who made millions without post-college education. I know a couple who each earned enormous nest eggs working up the ranks at the US postal service. A guy who clears millions each year from a popular local pizza parlor (extremely low overhead and high profit margin). I know a guy who is making crazy money as a contractor working with people who are renovating their homes in the current tight real estate market. Another guy who is quite wealthy running various theme based tours within popular cities. And so on. Yes they all work hard, but not doctors hours. The myth on this board is that to earn a nice living you need to be a Doctor, dentist, BigLaw lawyer or I-banker. You guys need to get away from the ivy towers a bit and see what real people do for a living. The possibilities are limitless.

 

[md-2020]

I think you guys are extremely myopic in terms of focusing on professions and banking. From my legal background I worked with plenty of people who made millions without post-college education. I know a couple who each earned enormous nest eggs working up the ranks at the US postal service. A guy who clears millions each year from a popular local pizza parlor (extremely low overhead and high profit margin). I know a guy who is making crazy money as a contractor working with people who are renovating their homes in the current tight real estate market. Another guy who is quite wealthy running various theme based tours within popular cities. And so on. Yes they all work hard, but not doctors hours. The myth on this board is that to earn a nice living you need to be a Doctor, dentist, BigLaw lawyer or I-banker. You guys need to get away from the ivy towers a bit and see what real people do for a living. The possibilities are limitless.

.....and then there's the other 99.9999% in these occupations that never make a comfortable income. Can't recommend these things to the OP based on the slightest chance of "striking it big."

Medical school, banking/business school, law school, etc etc are absurdly competitive for a reason.

On a side note I'm very concerned that a couple earned enormous nest eggs working for the cash-strapped USPS.

 

[GrapesofRath]

If your goal is to do something in science that isn't being a physician and can use your bio background or is related to it here is a start

Dental school
Pharmacy school
Optometry school
Anasthesiology assistant school
Nursing school
Physician assistant school
PhD programs and tech related research jobs
Public policy in health
Law school with a focus towards health related issues
Consulting with biotech and pharmaceutical companies

 

[Law2Doc]

.....and then there's the other 99.9999% in these occupations that never make a comfortable income. Can't recommend these things to the OP based on the slightest chance of "striking it big."

Medical school, banking/business school, law school, etc etc are absurdly competitive for a reason.

On a side note I'm very concerned that a couple earned enormous nest eggs working for the cash-strapped USPS.

If you want big rewards you gotta take some risk. If you play it safe you'll work harder and have a pretty significant ceiling. My point though is that there are nearly infinite options and SDN does nobody a service repeatedly reinforcing the false notion that the only good jobs out there are the professions and banking.

As for the post office employees I mentioned, I promise you these folks aren't the only government employees legally doing well on your dime. And you aren't going to find better job security.

 

[Axes]

You can't just make a lot of money without working hard, otherwise everyone would be rolling around in Ferraris. Dude even the manager at the Dairy Queen where I work worked a 70 hour week last week. And that guy would kill to have the opportunities some of us have. My dad did the I banking thing, and he worked like 80 hour weeks at Lehman. Every successful person worked really hard for a really long time to get where they are. That's just how it goes. But you obviously know that given your 3.99/everything else, I'm sure you've put in thousands of hours to achieve that.

 

[mathnerd88]

You can't just make a lot of money without working hard, otherwise everyone would be rolling around in Ferraris. Dude even the manager at the Dairy Queen where I work worked a 70 hour week last week. And that guy would kill to have the opportunities some of us have. My dad did the I banking thing, and he worked like 80 hour weeks at Lehman. Every successful person worked really hard for a really long time to get where they are. That's just how it goes. But you obviously know that given your 3.99/everything else, I'm sure you've put in thousands of hours to achieve that.

Poor guy...Lehman. Was he severely affected by the recession?

 

[Axes]

Investment banking isn't that hard to get into if you go to a top tier private school and do an internship around junior year. If you can go to a top law school you will have some options too, although the market is hurting for all law grads now.
You can also try and go the engineering route. Lots of 3 month programs that will land you a 6 figure salary after completion.


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Front office IB is extremely competitive, even at top targets where a sizable percentage is going to go into banking. I have friends trying to break in from Yale and Princeton and they were saying like 1/3 of people want IBD and it's a total crapshoot who gets the call.

 

[Avicenna]

secure, pays well, good hours

Pick two.

dentistry

 

[LizzyM]

Physician's assistants have good hours, good pay, allow you to help people, and use your degree well without years of study and residency...

The pay is "good" but far less than an attending MD is paid for exactly the same job (outpatient medicine clinic). A PA with 20 years experience needs minimal supervision day to day and it is demoralizing to be paid less for the same work. Someone I know very well IRL is a PA and I've heard all about the dissatisfaction with wages.

 

[drjay16]

Front office IB is extremely competitive, even at top targets where a sizable percentage is going to go into banking. I have friends trying to break in from Yale and Princeton and they were saying like 1/3 of people want IBD and it's a total crapshoot who gets the call.

It's not that competitive. Maybe if you are trying for top 3 firms. There are enough jobs to go around. If you got an internship and did well, you will get an offer. It's just a matter of where. Trust me. Everyone that did well at their internship has offers the following year. It's the people applying cold that may struggle a bit since you haven't been vetted.


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[Upwardtrendfornow]

Man would I give to be in OP's situation right now, college GPA (especially these days, the importance of having a GPA at least higher than a 3.0) practically determines whether or not you grow up to make over six figures for most people. Exceptions being pro athletes, actors, and rich business owners but those are anomalies.

 

[Axes]

Poor guy...Lehman. Was he severely affected by the recession?

No he left before that. He maintains that Lehman was only allowed to go under bc the administration didn't get adequate $$ from the head guy whatever his name was

 

[Axes]

It's not that competitive. Maybe if you are trying for top 3 firms. There are enough jobs to go around. If you got an internship and did well, you will get an offer. It's just a matter of where. Trust me. Everyone that did well at their internship has offers the following year. It's the people applying cold that may struggle a bit since you haven't been vetted.


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The internships are competitive. And everyone aims for the top firms

 

[Stagg737]

I'm still going to apply to medical school. And I'm sure that there are some specialties that I would really like. @LizzyM what do you think about a specialty like PM&R? I've heard you don't need stellar board scores, the residency only has an average of 54 hours on call per week (as opposed to 75-80 for surgery and IM), with 1.6 days off per week on average. And the median salary is listed at 241k. Why isn't this a more competitive specialty?

Personally, it's a very appealing field to me for the reasons you mentioned along with the fact that there are a lot of different subspecialties within the field. It's a very different field from most of medicine. You're typically not very involved in the diagnostic aspect of medicine, but instead focus predominantly on the treatment aspect. You could check out the PMR forums and ask them, they would be able to give you the best info.

The biggest reason I don't think it's competitive though is because a very large percentage of students don't know about it. I know a lot of my classmates that have never heard of it or have just heard the initials. I honestly didn't know anything about it other than it existed until last fall.

 

[drjay16]

The internships are competitive. And everyone aims for the top firms

Just not true. It's not like the top firms will be paying you that much more. You get one internship and you will have a job upon graduation. Done deal.


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[allantois]

I'm still going to apply to medical school. And I'm sure that there are some specialties that I would really like. @LizzyM what do you think about a specialty like PM&R? I've heard you don't need stellar board scores, the residency only has an average of 54 hours on call per week (as opposed to 75-80 for surgery and IM), with 1.6 days off per week on average. And the median salary is listed at 241k. Why isn't this a more competitive specialty?

I don't think you can arrive at your specialty of choice by means of philosophical contemplation. I also don't think there was a specialty I like the least of the 10+ specialists that I shadowed. People coming in with horrible chronic pain on a monthly basis while there is nothing you can do to cure them sounded nice but not after seeing it in person.

 

[allantois]

I think medicine is foolproof for an eventual comfortable life because let's face it: how many physicians would be good at or even want to run a successful non-medical business? As for IB and law, you really have to go to one of the top schools in order to break into a good firm. As far as medicine is concerned, you can start your way at any college and still be able to become a competent physician.

 

[Kimbee]

If your goal is to do something in science that isn't being a physician and can use your bio background or is related to it here is a start

Dental school
Pharmacy school
Optometry school
Anasthesiology assistant school
Nursing school
Physician assistant school
PhD programs and tech related research jobs
Public policy in health
Law school with a focus towards health related issues
Consulting with biotech and pharmaceutical companies

aren't consultants supposed to provide advice? why would consulting firms hire someone fresh out of college with no real world experience?

 

[GrapesofRath]

aren't consultants supposed to provide advice? why would consulting firms hire someone fresh out of college with no real world experience?

I didn't say it was easy. It can be done however(I know flamed out pre-meds who have gone this route and gotten a job doing this out of college without real experience-----again we're not talking working for McKinney or something). Key is relevant to the field of health and being able to sell your experiences in the past that can make you a good candidate for a consulting job in the health care industry. Easier said than done but plausible potentially.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think medicine is foolproof for an eventual comfortable life because let's face it: how many physicians would be good at or even want to run a successful non-medical business? As for IB and law, you really have to go to one of the top schools in order to break into a good firm. As far as medicine is concerned, you can start your way at any college and still be able to become a competent physician.

This post reads like you are trying to sell yourself on medicine. I've seen a number of physicians with good ideas do well in business -- there isn't per se a doctor mindset that makes you bad at other things, and going back and getting an MBA as a doctor is even not unheard of. And while going to a top school is helpful in law or banking, as pedigree certainly matters for BigLaw and Wall Street, my experience is that there are multiple avenues to success in both of these fields and someone with the kind of drive necessary to succeed at premed and med school can likely do well focusing that same energy in other directions. For instance in law, while the top law firms focused on the top dozen law schools, they also always brought in a few of the top people from regional law schools. Or in business, while you might not get to wall street coming straight out of a non-top-twenty college, you might get a financial services or corporate or international job away from the Street, after excelling at that for a bit get into a brand name MBA program, and use that to get to the Street. My point is if you have the drive and ability to succeed in medicine, you probably have the ability to focus that energy into many many other avenues and succeed. So you really need to figure out what you want to do, not sell yourself by artificially dismissing what you probably wouldn't be good at or probably wouldn't get.

 

[Law2Doc]

aren't consultants supposed to provide advice? why would consulting firms hire someone fresh out of college with no real world experience?

Simple -- you've got to start somewhere. Lots of college grads go into consulting. It's grunt work at first, lots of traveling and going through files, due diligence, sitting through meetings. Not all that different than being a law associate. Once you get good, the company may pay for you to get an MBA to get promoted, but at most firms you don't need to start with one. The senior people "give advice" but someone has to do the research and leg work to get them the information they need to sound smart.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This post reads like you are trying to sell yourself on medicine. I've seen a number of physicians with good ideas do well in business -- there isn't per se a doctor mindset that makes you bad at other things, and going back and getting an MBA as a doctor is even not unheard of. And while going to a top school is helpful in law or banking, as pedigree certainly matters for BigLaw and Wall Street, my experience is that there are multiple avenues to success in both of these fields and someone with the kind of drive necessary to succeed at premed and med school can likely do well focusing that same energy in other directions. For instance in law, while the top law firms focused on the top dozen law schools, they also always brought in a few of the top people from regional law schools. Or in business, while you might not get to wall street coming straight out of a non-top-twenty college, you might get a financial services or corporate or international job away from the Street, after excelling at that for a bit get into a brand name MBA program, and use that to get to the Street. My point is if you have the drive and ability to succeed in medicine, you probably have the ability to focus that energy into many many other avenues an succeed. So you really need to figure out what you want to do, not sell yourself by artificially dismissing what you probably wouldn't be good at.

On top of this if you are capable of getting into an MD school there is a very solid chance you are capable of getting into a top 14 law school

 

[md-2020]

On top of this if you are capable of getting into an MD school there is a very solid chance you are capable of getting into a top 14 law school

One of the most common SDN misconceptions, IMO.

 

[GrapesofRath]

One of the most common SDN misconceptions, IMO.

Note "very solid chance" doesn't mean automatic yes.

There are a number of big 14 law schools with median GPAs in the 3.7-3.8 range. These are on average with MUCH easier majors than pre-meds who have to take pre-reqs as opposed to pre-law students told to take the major that preserves their GPA at all costs. If the OP is capable of a 3.9 GPA in bio like they say they are capable of getting that type of GPA for a variety of these common pre-law majors easily. Hell, put a 3.7 bio major in a major such as english and see what happens to their grades; good chance they at least hit the 3.8+ territory and even if they stay simliar to their bio average that is within range for a number of big 14 law schools.

LSAT wise: there are big 14 law schools with 170 type averages. That ranks around 97th percentile(98 for the ones with 172). There a couple in the 168-169 range which is 95th-96th percentile. For the MCAT the average matriculant score is a 31, around 84th percentile(average score is 31.4 we will round up on the percentile thing a percent or two).

Now for the difference in applicant pool and the difference in caliber of students taking the LSAT and MCAT: good god it is enormous. Forget about all the pre-laws who take the LSAT and are weeded out by a terrible score which factors into the percentile range(and there are a good number of them). There are TONS and TONS of succesful law students who go into these average programs(the vast majority actually).

http://lawschooli.com/gpa-medians-law-schools-2015/

Look at the median GPA for most of these schools. Average out all the median GPAs for schools not ranked in the big 14(almost 90% of law schools) and you'll get something into the 3.4-3.5 range. That's not even close to the 3.7 median GPA of MD schools on top of the fact that pre-meds take FAR harder majors and classes than the average pre-law student. These type of students make up the vast majority of LSAT test takers who are successful; there are tons who take the LSAT and don't even go onto law school(just like med school to be fair). Bottom line the caliber of students who take the MCAT isn't in comparison to those who take the LSAT. On top of that the EC standard is far higher for MD schools than LSAT schools which gives MD students even less time for their GPA and MCAT than pre-laws.

Bottom line there's no gurantees. There are pre-meds who will just naturally suck at the LSAT no matter how much they practice it. It's a different skill set. But if the average pre-med who can get into an MD school and has the average verbal score of around 10, like I said above there is definitely a rather solid chance they can achieve the LSAT necessary for a big 14 law school. No gurantees but it's hardly some misconception.

 

[raiderette]

I know CPAs and actuaries that make over $100,000 and have time to coach soccer and be gs troop leaders. It could take some post-grad study, but if you don't want to use your undergraduate degree, those are good, but not exciting options.
Also, if you really want high-risk, high income, sales has the potential for very high income and even mobility in a company. It is perhaps the best way for someone with a degree from an average place to move up in business. Perform exceptionally well, network and get mentors inside the company, then rotate your time through operations. So many executives started out in sales and proved their worth.

 

[Axes]

One of the most common SDN misconceptions, IMO.

I think its pretty accurate. Law school admissions are determined almost entirely by numbers, and most people find the LSAT easier than the MCAT. All top law schools have acceptance rates >>> top med schools. Both paths require similarly intense work.

 

[Axes]

Just not true. It's not like the top firms will be paying you that much more. You get one internship and you will have a job upon graduation. Done deal.


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You're right, that must be why there are so many front office IBD positions, and the number grows exponentially each year! /s

And top firms pay a bit more, but mainly the thing is that IBD is not a career for 90% of people, it's a place to start. The more prestigious your starting point, the more prestigious, and lucrative, your later offers and future career.

Bottom line is even at target schools, IBD is competitive. Which makes sense bc that's the only place most banks are really actively recruiting.

 

[drjay16]

...

 

[Axes]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

There's plenty of realistic options for you out there if you have a pre-med focused degree and decide not to go to medical school.

 

[Axes]

You are talking to someone who left IBD. People all want to do private equity if they are after the real money and even if you don't go to a top form, you can still land a private equity position if you stick with it. I didn't say it's not competitive, but it's not like Goldman or bust. Most people just burn out after 1-3 years and decide they want to do something completely different, become an analyst, stick with the track of landing PE. If you go to a top school and want IBD, all you need to do is focus on landing an internship and you will get a job. They have ample internship spots available....but some people just can't hack it and fail or others don't realize the importance and apply late.


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Fair enough. Based on talking to IB hopefuls at my school (strong target), it's much more competitive for many than it has been in your experience. And people decide to become an analyst after being analyst for 1-3 years? what?

 

[drjay16]

...

 

[md-2020]

You're right, that must be why there are so many front office IBD positions, and the number grows exponentially each year! /s

And top firms pay a bit more, but mainly the thing is that IBD is not a career for 90% of people, it's a place to start. The more prestigious your starting point, the more prestigious, and lucrative, your later offers and future career.

Bottom line is even at target schools, IBD is competitive. Which makes sense bc that's the only place most banks are really actively recruiting.

Top firms absolutely do not necessarily pay more. Among my econ friends and I, almost all received highest bids from boutique banks in NYC/CHI/Europe, and bulge brackets in a slightly lesser range (aside from Goldman). BB's can do that because, well, they're desirable names to have on a resume.

And yes, generally competitive analysts after 3 years either get promoted, sent to B-school, or leave the firm for a better position at a company (in any field) or hedge fund.

On an unrelated note every time I read "IBD" I automatically think of "inflammatory bowel disease."

 

[Flashfan]

Also, if you really want high-risk, high income, sales has the potential for very high income and even mobility in a company. It is perhaps the best way for someone with a degree from an average place to move up in business. Perform exceptionally well, network and get mentors inside the company, then rotate your time through operations. So many executives started out in sales and proved their worth.

I know two millionaires personally. One started as an insurance salesman (after being a Div.III football player) and the other sold loan products for a bank. One owns a huge insurance company and the other has a tech firm. (probably a billionaire-retired at 45). If you want to work hard and risk it all, go into sales. all you want to live comfortably, go into medicine.