PhD/PsyD Reasonable salary for a (primarily) research career?

[buzzworm]

Hi all,

I'm currently at the end of my clinical internship, and I'll be starting a T32 research fellowship at a medical school in a large city over the summer. At the moment, my plan is to apply for a K award during the T32 and then hopefully continue on at the same place. I'm also planning to get licensed and start a small private practice to add some additional income.

My husband and I are starting to plan for the future, so I'm trying to get a realistic sense of what I can expect to be earning over the next several years. I know that T32 salaries are in the $43-45k range, but I've been having a hard time navigating the NIMH's labyrinthine website to figure out what my salary would be on a K award. Can anybody lend me insight on this?

I'm also trying to figure out realistically how much extra I could expect to make if I added a small private practice; I would probably aim to see about 5 patients/week. I know there are a lot of variables that go into this, but at this point I'm not even sure how to make a ballpark estimate. Any thoughts on this, or suggestions for resources to help figure it out, would be much appreciated.

Ideally, I would like to be making $90-$100k about 5 years from now. To those who have followed a similar career path, does that sound reasonable?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

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[WisNeuro]

Ideally, I would like to be making $90-$100k about 5 years from now. To those who have followed a similar career path, does that sound reasonable?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

You could consider the MIRECC within the VA. Instead of working 60 hours a week and waiting 5 years, you could start in that range and work 40-45 hours a week.

 

[buzzworm]

You could consider the MIRECC within the VA. Instead of working 60 hours a week and waiting 5 years, you could start in that range and work 40-45 hours a week.

Thanks for this suggestion; that seems worth looking into. Unfortunately I'm pretty geographically limited right now, and from the MIRECC website it doesn't look like there are any locations in my area.

I should also clarify that the T32 position will only be for two years or so, and that I expect to be earning more once I (hopefully) get a K award. I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly how much more I can expect to make at that point.

 

[Ollie123]

Depends on the type of K. https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/contacts/parent_K01.html

Varies by geography, but I'd think 80k+ is a reasonable starting salary in most places. More is not uncommon up to the salary limit of the K award, with clinical effort counting on top of that. 90-100k within 5 years sounds quite reasonable to me, most people I know are earning at least that. MIRECC may be worth considering. AMCs probably offer more later in your career (if you "make it") where salaries in the 150+ range are not at all atypical, but VAs offer more early on and arguably greater stability. Depends on your research focus too. You don't see many successful basic science types with primary VA appointments. Resources can be hit or miss, though a fair amount of the time are available through an affiliated university.

 

[buzzworm]

Depends on the type of K. https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/contacts/parent_K01.html

Varies by geography, but I'd think 80k+ is a reasonable starting salary in most places. More is not uncommon up to the salary limit of the K award, with clinical effort counting on top of that. 90-100k within 5 years sounds quite reasonable to me, most people I know are earning at least that. MIRECC may be worth considering. AMCs probably offer more later in your career (if you "make it") where salaries in the 150+ range are not at all atypical, but VAs offer more early on and arguably greater stability. Depends on your research focus too. You don't see many successful basic science types with primary VA appointments. Resources can be hit or miss, though a fair amount of the time are available through an affiliated university.

Thanks for your input -- this is helpful to hear. I do EEG research with an emphasis on predicting risk and response to treatment for specific disorders. Does that strike you as something that would fall within the VA's interests?

Also, when you say that resources can be hit or miss, could you say a little more about what kinds of resources you mean?

 

[Ollie123]

I actually do similar research (do I know you? attend SPR?). Its not like anything is categorically "within VA interests vs. not" its just about well you would fit in that environment, find collaborators, grow a lab, thrive, etc. VA MIRECCs are understandably focused on veteran-specific questions, so things like this are not necessarily the best fit. That certainly doesn't mean you can't do that sort of work there. However, at least in my subfield I have met precisely zero people doing that type of work with primary VA appointments. Tons of folks affiliated with VAs, but very few who consider it their base institution.

Resource issue basically just boils down to what support is available. A lot of MIRECC support is provided through affiliated universities. For instance, I don't know of a VA facility with its own research-dedicated MRI scanner. Biostats support is often lacking. Space is always at a premium everywhere, but folks at the VAs I was affiliated with generally had less lab space than university conterparts and what they did have was usually less well-maintained. So convincing the VA you should have 3-4 rooms dedicated just to your studies along with 1-2 of your own EEG setups may be a tougher sell.

None of this is to say you shouldn't pursue a MIRECC position. They are worth considering and I'd be open to one myself. Its just that it may not be the optimal fit.

 

[WisNeuro]

Resource issue basically just boils down to what support is available. A lot of MIRECC support is provided through affiliated universities. For instance, I don't know of a VA facility with its own research-dedicated MRI scanner. Biostats support is often lacking. Space is always at a premium everywhere, but folks at the VAs I was affiliated with generally had less lab space than university conterparts and what they did have was usually less well-maintained. So convincing the VA you should have 3-4 rooms dedicated just to your studies along with 1-2 of your own EEG setups may be a tougher sell.

None of this is to say you shouldn't pursue a MIRECC position. They are worth considering and I'd be open to one myself. Its just that it may not be the optimal fit.

Houston does a good amount of MRI research. Nota dedicated scanner, but they've had lots of luck getting research projects with scanners. Slowed down a bit when they replaced a scanner and had to use the mobile unit for a while. I think it depends on the MIRECC, some have great support, some....less than great.

 

[cara susanna]

There are research centers other than MIRECCs in the VA, too. Centers of Excellence, for instance. If you get a VA fellowship or job, you can also apply for a career development award, which is the VA equivalent to a K award.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I know of at least one va/mirecc/coe with related research.

 

[buzzworm]

Thanks for your responses, everyone (and sorry for totally abandoning this thread for a week)! I hadn't thought much about going for a VA job, but I'll definitely consider it when my postdoc is wrapping up. And if there are other folks out there who can weigh in with thoughts about non-VA research salaries, I'd love to hear from you too!

 

[Pragma]

Thanks for your responses, everyone (and sorry for totally abandoning this thread for a week)! I hadn't thought much about going for a VA job, but I'll definitely consider it when my postdoc is wrapping up. And if there are other folks out there who can weigh in with thoughts about non-VA research salaries, I'd love to hear from you too!

The K award limits should clear some things up for you that Ollie posted - they vary some by type of award and institute. However, I will note that some of that depends on your institution - ultimately you work for them and negotiate your salary with them, and it gets bought out by the grant. I haven't looked recently but I heard K limits are generally around 100K. That might seem good, but I have heard that there are institutions that won't let you take out the max salary for a K. So all of that should be a part of the negotiation when you are writing it and deciding on the budget. Your K salary would be based on 75% effort and then your institution covers the other 25%, if I understand it correctly (haven't had one myself).

I'd second what Ollie wrote with regard to academic salaries. If you are productive and get grants, you can climb to 150K+.
Regarding your question about side work - I wouldn't make the assumption that you will have time for that or be able to do that. There is a possibility that your University might still have you sign a non-compete, even if your role there is predominantly research. So you might not be allowed to have a PP anyways. Plus, everyone I know with a K works a lot!

 

[Ollie123]

Your K salary would be based on 75% effort and then your institution covers the other 25%, if I understand it correctly (haven't had one myself).

It has to be a minimum of 75%, but it can cover up to 100% of salary. Most people seem to do 100% unless they want to maintain a clinical practice. The remaining 25% is tough to cover from research since it can't come from other federal grants.

 

[Pragma]

It has to be a minimum of 75%, but it can cover up to 100% of salary. Most people seem to do 100% unless they want to maintain a clinical practice. The remaining 25% is tough to cover from research since it can't come from other federal grants.

So what I have heard (anecdotally) is that an institution might say, "yeah, we'll take you on" but they might not want to commit to paying you the full 100K cap. I'd assume it has something to do with salary negotiations in the longer term (e.g., when you get an R01) or potentially also because of politics within a department.

Of course, that might not be the case at all places - some may happily give you the maximum. Just goes to show you that negotiating is very important, even in a soft money situation.

 

[Ollie123]

% effort and salary are separate. You can be 100% effort on the grant at a salary of 50k (not that I'd recommend it). You have to be at least 75% effort. Your salary can be whatever you work out with your university above or below the cap, but anything above it the grant won't cover. Its true that most people are not right at the cap of the grant. I think part is due to long term negotiation, part is due to salary compression (i.e. they don't want junior people making more than folks who have been there longer just because NIH upped the cap), part due to the fact that they can't cover any promotions/raises if you are already maxed out and part is due to simply supply/demand and that they don't generally need to offer a 100k salary to someone fresh out of post-doc. There is some risk on their part since depending on how they work contracts, they may end up on the "hook" to cover your salary for some portion of time. Some kick you out the door the day the grant ends, but many are not so harsh.

 

[Pragma]

% effort and salary are separate. You can be 100% effort on the grant at a salary of 50k (not that I'd recommend it). You have to be at least 75% effort. Your salary can be whatever you work out with your university above or below the cap, but anything above it the grant won't cover. Its true that most people are not right at the cap of the grant. I think part is due to long term negotiation, part is due to salary compression (i.e. they don't want junior people making more than folks who have been there longer just because NIH upped the cap), part due to the fact that they can't cover any promotions/raises if you are already maxed out and part is due to simply supply/demand and that they don't generally need to offer a 100k salary to someone fresh out of post-doc. There is some risk on their part since depending on how they work contracts, they may end up on the "hook" to cover your salary for some portion of time. Some kick you out the door the day the grant ends, but many are not so harsh.

Yeah I was just assuming 100% effort, to your earlier point.

There is risk on their part - if a junior faculty member feels that they were not paid adequately, later on they could take their R01 and go somewhere else instead of keeping it at the same University. I've seen it happen. But in this funding environment, more often I have been seeing people "kicked out the door" when the grant ends, or they've had to take on more clinical work than they are interested in.

So back to the original question - it's all in negotiation, and it is important because how that contract is set up will most likely be the basis for future salary negotiations.