Army Reasons not to join

[turkish]

For those of you considering taking the scholarship or attending USUHS, here are a few items to consider. Had to get these off my chest, maybe it will save someone from making the same mistake I did.

I got pulled out of clinic again yesterday for a last minute, mandatory, 90 minute sexual harassment and assault prevention lecture (series of "back in my day" stories) given by a rambling retired two star friend of the base commander who was here on a whim and thought he might like to address the troops. This caused me to have to cancel the rest of my patients on one of my only three half days per week that I'm able to be in clinic due to admin responsibilities.

I'll hit 5 years in June after my subspecialty residency. Of those 60 months, I've spent 8 deployed, and 24 as a brigade surgeon. So 57% of my career has been spent outside my specialty. How employable do you think that makes me when I get out?

Hospital command sat on my off duty employment packet so long I lost a job. You can't work on your days off without approval from the hospital command, and evidently four months isn't enough lead time to get a signature.

I got called in for two urinalyses on the same day, one at 0600 in the morning, the other at a 1900 at night, a few months back because during command team shuffling I somehow ended up on two companies' manning rosters, and both were having 100% drug testing on the same day. The one I went to didn't count, and the one I "missed" called me back in at night. You can say you would not have gone, but I'm betting, just like me, you would not want to be pulled out of clinic to have to explain to five different bosses why you didn't go to the urinalysis.

I get addressed as major, not doctor, by the nurses and non-medical staff mucks who outrank me and feel the need to come around weekly or so to discuss how I can see more patients.

AHLTA. They say it's getting replaced. I'll believe it when I see it.

I could go on.

Congress is looking at a bill that would "require military health facilities to operate past normal business hours to improve patient access". So say goodbye to the normal duty day and likely weekends as well. They own your @$$ 24/7, and if you don't think they'll make you come in for extra shifts without extra pay or days off to compensate, I need some of what you're smoking. It's all about catching those "leakage" patients, not quality care given by happy doctors. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ealth-system-reorgainzed-under-bill/83391254/

It's not worth the money. Join only if you ABSOLUTELY WANT to deploy, outside your specialty, repeatedly. Otherwise you're just feeding the beast another unwitting soul.

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[HighPriest]

I will avoid making a list of pros and cons again until after I've separated and worked exclusively in the civilian sector for a while.

But what I will say is that I have started to come to grips (because peace is not the right term in my case) with something that I knew to be true rationally, but refused to believe from an ethical standpoint for some time.

When you join the military - at least the Army - you are a tool. You and a bunch of other tools are tossed in a toolbox (your hospital) until a big project comes up (like a deployment, be it for war or otherwise). And that makes sense, right? The military is a war-fighting machine. It's one predominant goal is to seek out and destroy the enemies of the United States. You don't think so? Doesn't matter what you think, that's a fact. Now, that doesn't mean we don't occasionally do some side jobs for friends and family (like humanitarian work after tsumanis, etc.), but ultimately that's not what we do for a living.

The military doesn't see an issue with keeping a tool in it's toolbox for a prolonged period of time. It's in the toolbox, and the toolbox is its home, so everything should be fine. The tool will remain sharp because there's no reason it should get dull inside the toolbox. If the tool gets some work done in the toolbox, then the Army sees that as a bonus for the tool, because that's not why it bought the tool. The tool should just be happy that it's in the toolbox to begin with.

Also, it is a little unclear as to what the differences are between tools. A screwdriver, for example, can drive screws really well. But if you hit a nail the right way with a screwdriver then the nail still gets nailed, right? So a screwdriver should also be able to be a hammer in a pinch. But really, the military is better at demolishing old houses than it is at building. You can knock down drywall with pretty much anything, but building stuff means using the right tool for the right job, and we're not so good at that.

If there happen to be a lot of nails to hammer, then the hammers get a lot of work. If there aren't enough screws, then the screwdrivers don't get to work much. But that's ok, because the military didn't buy screwdrivers to screw screws. It bought screwdrivers in case it ever needed a screwdriver. In fact, it really just bought a bunch of tools based upon a general idea of what a toolbox should look like. Sometimes what it needs is a paperweight rather than a tool, but luckily a tool can be used as a paperweight, no problem.

Inside the toolbox, it generally makes sense to organize the tools in a fashion which makes the toolbox more efficient, but the Army doesn't use most of it's tools all that often, and the diagrams it has seen of a toolbox weren't clear enough, so usually it just tosses tools in whatever drawer happens to be open at that time.

This is why so many physicians have an issue with being a tool. As a general rule, we're organized, we like using the right tool for the right job, and we'd rather not do a job that we're not prepared to do. We see disorganization as a potential danger to the work we do. We worked really, really hard to be a tool, only to be used as if we were no more than a paperweight. But that's what we are to the Army, because a single F-35 is worth more than all the training of all your colleagues put together. The F-35 is the Army's Superduty Ford F-350 that it bought to haul lumber and horses and off road vehicles, but which it really only uses to pick up groceries and also its a pain in the ass to park. The Army barely notices its tools.

 

[WernickeDO]

I will avoid making a list of pros and cons again until after I've separated and worked exclusively in the civilian sector for a while.

But what I will say is that I have started to come to grips (because peace is not the right term in my case) with something that I knew to be true rationally, but refused to believe from an ethical standpoint for some time.

When you join the military - at least the Army - you are a tool. You and a bunch of other tools are tossed in a toolbox (your hospital) until a big project comes up (like a deployment, be it for war or otherwise). And that makes sense, right? The military is a war-fighting machine. It's one predominant goal is to seek out and destroy the enemies of the United States. You don't think so? Doesn't matter what you think, that's a fact. Now, that doesn't mean we don't occasionally do some side jobs for friends and family (like humanitarian work after tsumanis, etc.), but ultimately that's not what we do for a living.

The military doesn't see an issue with keeping a tool in it's toolbox for a prolonged period of time. It's in the toolbox, and the toolbox is its home, so everything should be fine. The tool will remain sharp because there's no reason it should get dull inside the toolbox. If the tool gets some work done in the toolbox, then the Army sees that as a bonus for the tool, because that's not why it bought the tool. The tool should just be happy that it's in the toolbox to begin with.

Also, it is a little unclear as to what the differences are between tools. A screwdriver, for example, can drive screws really well. But if you hit a nail the right way with a screwdriver then the nail still gets nailed, right? So a screwdriver should also be able to be a hammer in a pinch. But really, the military is better at demolishing old houses than it is at building. You can knock down drywall with pretty much anything, but building stuff means using the right tool for the right job, and we're not so good at that.

If there happen to be a lot of nails to hammer, then the hammers get a lot of work. If there aren't enough screws, then the screwdrivers don't get to work much. But that's ok, because the military didn't buy screwdrivers to screw screws. It bought screwdrivers in case it ever needed a screwdriver. In fact, it really just bought a bunch of tools based upon a general idea of what a toolbox should look like. Sometimes what it needs is a paperweight rather than a tool, but luckily a tool can be used as a paperweight, no problem.

Inside the toolbox, it generally makes sense to organize the tools in a fashion which makes the toolbox more efficient, but the Army doesn't use most of it's tools all that often, and the diagrams it has seen of a toolbox weren't clear enough, so usually it just tosses tools in whatever drawer happens to be open at that time.

This is why so many physicians have an issue with being a tool. As a general rule, we're organized, we like using the right tool for the right job, and we'd rather not do a job that we're not prepared to do. We see disorganization as a potential danger to the work we do. We worked really, really hard to be a tool, only to be used as if we were no more than a paperweight. But that's what we are to the Army, because a single F-35 is worth more than all the training of all your colleagues put together. The F-35 is the Army's Superduty Ford F-350 that it bought to haul lumber and horses and off road vehicles, but which it really only uses to pick up groceries and also its a pain in the ass to park. The Army barely notices its tools.

@HighPriest That is so beautifully and poetically true that it actually made me feel like a tool. Bravo, sir.

 

[HighPriest]

I think once you start to realize that you're an asset and not a person or a professional, the way the military does things starts to make sense. It doesn't make it right or efficient or smart or even reasonable, but it makes sense within the confines of its own short-sightedness.

If you trained to be a wrench and you want to work as a wrench on a daily basis, and you don't want to be a backup paperweight that spends most of your time in the toolbox, the military isn't the right choice.

 

[WernickeDO]

Yes, it is how I have come to view myself and how I manage to push through these days.

 

[Shikima]

Tool... technician.

No, tool.

 

[bricktamland]

Turkish, I feel your pain. Hang in there. How much longer is your obligation?

I have 62 working days left myself (who's counting?), and then I'm finally free. I honestly imagine I'll feel like a convict being released from prison--maybe not San Quentin level of prison, probably more like Martha Stewart minimum security prison--but still, I can't wait to experience the euphoria of knowing I'm not owned anymore. Ironic how the people protecting all our freedoms have the least freedom.

Anyhow, I'm at 12 years and this final year has been one of the worst yet. I try to keep up a cheery attitude as much as possible on the surface, mainly for the sake of my Corpsmen, who don't deserve to work under a bitter Officer, but inside I am writhing with disgruntlement. I swear if they take my stapler I could set the building on fire.

When the time is right, I can't wait to share the story of my military career, i.e. the winter of my discontent. It will be so cathartic. I think it will have to wait until I'm officially out though.

HighPriest, your post was pure genius. Such a great metaphor. Totally encapsulates my feelings as a physician in the military. The corollary to your metaphor is of course the quintessential nurse CO; a screwdriver that thinks it knows how to be a hammer better than the hammer does, is trying to fill a job that calls for a wrench, and was never really a very good screwdriver to start with.

 

[idq1i]

This thread makes me even happier that I have only 10 working days left in this rotten, toxic system. The levels of incompetence, at least on the radiology side is staggering

 

[Gastrapathy]

When I quit, several senior docs told me I would miss it (particularly the people). I don't.

The options I had post-military were fantastic and I think I'm going to stay in the one I picked forever. But I know (and they know) that I could give my notice tomorrow. Congrats to all of you getting out this year.

 

[Shikima]

Turkish, I feel your pain. Hang in there. How much longer is your obligation?

I have 62 working days left myself (who's counting?), and then I'm finally free. I honestly imagine I'll feel like a convict being released from prison--maybe not San Quentin level of prison, probably more like Martha Stewart minimum security prison--but still, I can't wait to experience the euphoria of knowing I'm not owned anymore. Ironic how the people protecting all our freedoms have the least freedom.

Anyhow, I'm at 12 years and this final year has been one of the worst yet. I try to keep up a cheery attitude as much as possible on the surface, mainly for the sake of my Corpsmen, who don't deserve to work under a bitter Officer, but inside I am writhing with disgruntlement. I swear if they take my stapler I could set the building on fire.

When the time is right, I can't wait to share the story of my military career, i.e. the winter of my discontent. It will be so cathartic. I think it will have to wait until I'm officially out though.

HighPriest, your post was pure genius. Such a great metaphor. Totally encapsulates my feelings as a physician in the military. The corollary to your metaphor is of course the quintessential nurse CO; a screwdriver that thinks it knows how to be a hammer better than the hammer does, is trying to fill a job that calls for a wrench, and was never really a very good screwdriver to start with.

You need some merry squirrels in your life to look at.

 

[The Buff OP]

I got pulled out of clinic again yesterday for a last minute, mandatory, 90 minute sexual harassment and assault prevention lecture (series of "back in my day" stories) given by a rambling retired two star friend of the base commander who was here on a whim and thought he might like to address the troops. This caused me to have to cancel the rest of my patients on one of my only three half days per week that I'm able to be in clinic due to admin responsibilities.

 

[pgg]

Is that ... a cake?

 

[bricktamland]

You need some merry squirrels in your life to look at.

I see them. Those merry squirrels are frolicking within the light at the end of the tunnel. I get a better look at them each day I get closer to my separation.

In fact, I've already signed a contract for my dream job in my dream city, and we already purchased our dream house. My wife is ecstatic. Our son got accepted into our first choice school. I've got a deposit down on a Model 3. There will be no more uprooting our lives, no more deployments, no more rotten toxic system. So life is good.

But the Navy is sure doing its best to give me one last hard-core, spleen-bruising reaming to remember it by. I'm just doing my best to bear down and take it while I keep my eye on those squirrels.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Is that ... a cake?

Oh wow. I get dibs on the piece that says "ACT SEXUAL"...wait "MOTIVATE HARASSMENT" is better.

 

[HopefulOP]

Huh. Pre-med here. And I was thinking the military would be a great way to get med school payed for and get experience... I guess I was very, very wrong...

 

[WernickeDO]

Keep reading this forum. And if the military ever seems like a good idea, read some more.

 

[bommer1389]

Keep reading this forum. And if the military ever seems like a good idea, read some more.

Does this change if I am currently active duty? I don't hate being active duty at all, other than my current job itself is so boring (part of my plan out of the Academy was getting this job because it would be easy to separate mid-commitment). If I have to serve, doing it as a physician seems more fulfilling.

 

[HighPriest]

Does this change if I am currently active duty? I don't hate being active duty at all, other than my current job itself is so boring (part of my plan out of the Academy was getting this job because it would be easy to separate mid-commitment). If I have to serve, doing it as a physician seems more fulfilling.

You might think so. However, and this is just my take, I find being a military physician to be almost entirely unfulfilling. I do very little of what I was trained to do, I spend most of my time taking care of family members rather than soldiers, I never deploy (which I hear feels pretty fulfilling), and the Army really doesn't care whether or not I do my job at all. Obviously, experiences will differ, and what you choose to specialize in matters. But...maybe not so fulfilling.

To be perfectly fair, every once in a blue moon, I get an AD soldier in here with a real problem that I'm able to fix, and I feel great about it. It's a short-lived, uncommon rush. It hasn't made the rest of the baggage worth it to me. My experience thus far has been that my local civilian counterparts get that sort of case almost as often as I do, even though I try not to let any of those patients slip by.

 

[WernickeDO]

High Priest hit upon a major issue, about the Army not caring if we do our jobs or not. This is the thing that I struggle with the most. I like working hard at a job that has some form of meaning. The reality is that the majority of my job does not matter. Most days I could probably play hooky and no one would notice. I too get a blue moon patient that I am able to help, but that is rare. Most of my time is spent with minor MSK pain that will likely resolve whether or not I treat it or preparing emails and briefings that no one will read or care about. EM:RAP likes to say "Remember: What you do matters". The opposite is often true in this job.

 

[bommer1389]

...I like working hard at a job that has some form of meaning. The reality is that the majority of my job does not matter. Most days I could probably play hooky and no one would notice.... "Remember: What you do matters". The opposite is often true in this job.

I know that's how I feel sitting in my cubicle, looking at spreadsheets and Powerpoint. Because at the end of the day, nothing I do really matters because I have no real authority on anything. So I'm ok with this not changing, and now I get to go to medical school for free, move home for a few years, and eventually see a patient here and there. It's certainly not ideal, but coming from the inside already, it doesn't sound as bad.

 

[HighPriest]

That's institutionalization right there. You might as well carve "Brooks was here" in the rafters and get it over with.

 

[WernickeDO]

I know that's how I feel sitting in my cubicle, looking at spreadsheets and Powerpoint. Because at the end of the day, nothing I do really matters because I have no real authority on anything. So I'm ok with this not changing, and now I get to go to medical school for free, move home for a few years, and eventually see a patient here and there. It's certainly not ideal, but coming from the inside already, it doesn't sound as bad.

Wow, this is the most depressing post I've ever read on this forum, and that's saying something. If you are a doctor, you do not have to resign yourself to this sort of life. You have the world in your hands, and you can work anywhere and do anything that you can think of. Why relinquish control over your career and submit to a boring desk job?

 

[bommer1389]

Wow, this is the most depressing post I've ever read on this forum, and that's saying something. If you are a doctor, you do not have to resign yourself to this sort of life. You have the world in your hands, and you can work anywhere and do anything that you can think of. Why relinquish control over your career and submit to a boring desk job?

I already have the boring desk job. I'm upgrading to part-time boring desk job and part-time doc!

And I much prefer Morgan Freeman's actions in these situations. I havent been a physician in the military, but I'm going in with low expectations and high hopes. And I'm sure you have your reasons for feeling the way you do. But I plan on making chicken salad with whatever comes my way.

 

[HighPriest]

It's easy to make lemonade out of lemons when your choices are lemonade or lemons. As a physician, you have a full bar but the military is going to make you drink p!$$ anyway.

If you're truly happy being a third rate physician in a third rate system, then you're exactly what the military is looking for. But you can't be a first rate physician without seeing volume and being challenged, so you're making chicken salad out of chicken bones, not chicken. If that's good enough, then you'll be happy. The question is will you feel that way after you've spent years preparing for a job that you are then forced to be mediocre at?

By the way, Morgan Freeman didn't hang himself because he knew he could still enjoy being outside of the institution - not because he was ok with being institutionalized.

 

[bommer1389]

It's easy to make lemonade out of lemons when your choices are lemonade or lemons. As a physician, you have a full bar but the military is going to make you drink p!$$ anyway.

If you're truly happy being a third rate physician in a third rate system, then you're exactly what the military is looking for. But you can't be a first rate physician without seeing volume and being challenged, so you're making chicken salad out of chicken bones, not chicken. If that's good enough, then you'll be happy. The question is will you feel that way after you've spent years preparing for a job that you are then forced to be mediocre at?

By the way, Morgan Freeman didn't hang himself because he knew he could still enjoy being outside of the institution - not because he was ok with being institutionalized.

I feel like I understand what everyone is saying about milmed, and no, I don't think I'll truly be happy in the system. But I want to become a physician, and this is my only way of doing it before my previous ADSO is completed. So I'm choosing to look glass half full. I'm also exaggerating the fact I feel meaningless. There's just nothing for me to do as a junior officer in my current assignment. Med school has always been my dream, so I'm taking it even with the strings attached.

And like I said about MF: I'm sure once I'm out, I'll fully enjoy being outside the institution. But I have to get there first.

 

[HighPriest]

Ok, that outlook seems more rational to me. I get where you're coming from there. And good luck to you. It's going to be a swim through a river of $#!T, to continue our Shawshank theme.

 

[bommer1389]

Ok, that outlook seems more rational to me. I get where you're coming from there. And good luck to you. It's going to be a swim through a river of $#!T, to continue our Shawshank theme.

I appreciate it!

 

[WernickeDO]

Remember: In milmed, you either get busy living, or get busy dying.

 

[Incis0r]

Thank you for creating this thread, OP, and to all the respondents- thank you for sharing your experiences.
Would any of you happen to be aware of what the conditions are like in the Dental Corps?

I've spoken with several people over on the military dentistry forum and many seem to be content with their decisions to go into the services. I'm curious whether any of you know if your dental counterparts are also having a poor experience.

 

[68PGunner]

I feel like I understand what everyone is saying about milmed, and no, I don't think I'll truly be happy in the system. But I want to become a physician, and this is my only way of doing it before my previous ADSO is completed. So I'm choosing to look glass half full. I'm also exaggerating the fact I feel meaningless. There's just nothing for me to do as a junior officer in my current assignment. Med school has always been my dream, so I'm taking it even with the strings attached.

And like I said about MF: I'm sure once I'm out, I'll fully enjoy being outside the institution. But I have to get there first.

I know the feeling. I almost tricked myself into that mindset when the only way I could get out of the Man was to take my branch HPSP. However, life has other purposes for me and has given me another way out.

 

[HighPriest]

Thank you for creating this thread, OP, and to all the respondents- thank you for sharing your experiences.
Would any of you happen to be aware of what the conditions are like in the Dental Corps?

I've spoken with several people over on the military dentistry forum and many seem to be content with their decisions to go into the services. I'm curious whether any of you know if your dental counterparts are also having a poor experience.

I've never worked in DENTAC, but I work with oral surgeons all the time. I think by and large they have better leadership, and while that doesn't solve every issue it does help sooth the pain. I think they're a smaller community with leaders who generally understand what it is that their officers do for a living - something that is absolutely untrue in MEDCOM. That fosters trust both up and down the command chain. The typical federal government BS is still there in full force. Nothing will change that.

 

[Incis0r]

I've never worked in DENTAC, but I work with oral surgeons all the time. I think by and large they have better leadership, and while that doesn't solve every issue it does help sooth the pain. I think they're a smaller community with leaders who generally understand what it is that their officers do for a living - something that is absolutely untrue in MEDCOM. That fosters trust both up and down the command chain. The typical federal government BS is still there in full force. Nothing will change that.

I hear rumblings that they are thinking of merging dental command under medical command

 

[HighPriest]

I hear rumblings that they are thinking of merging dental command under medical command

My anecdotal experience would indicate that this will absolutely happen, because it is dumb, unnecessary, and creates more problems than it solves. The Army way.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

For those of you considering taking the scholarship or attending USUHS, here are a few items to consider. Had to get these off my chest, maybe it will save someone from making the same mistake I did.

I got pulled out of clinic again yesterday for a last minute, mandatory, 90 minute sexual harassment and assault prevention lecture (series of "back in my day" stories) given by a rambling retired two star friend of the base commander who was here on a whim and thought he might like to address the troops. This caused me to have to cancel the rest of my patients on one of my only three half days per week that I'm able to be in clinic due to admin responsibilities.

I'll hit 5 years in June after my subspecialty residency. Of those 60 months, I've spent 8 deployed, and 24 as a brigade surgeon. So 57% of my career has been spent outside my specialty. How employable do you think that makes me when I get out?

Hospital command sat on my off duty employment packet so long I lost a job. You can't work on your days off without approval from the hospital command, and evidently four months isn't enough lead time to get a signature.

I got called in for two urinalyses on the same day, one at 0600 in the morning, the other at a 1900 at night, a few months back because during command team shuffling I somehow ended up on two companies' manning rosters, and both were having 100% drug testing on the same day. The one I went to didn't count, and the one I "missed" called me back in at night. You can say you would not have gone, but I'm betting, just like me, you would not want to be pulled out of clinic to have to explain to five different bosses why you didn't go to the urinalysis.

I get addressed as major, not doctor, by the nurses and non-medical staff mucks who outrank me and feel the need to come around weekly or so to discuss how I can see more patients.

AHLTA. They say it's getting replaced. I'll believe it when I see it.

I could go on.

Congress is looking at a bill that would "require military health facilities to operate past normal business hours to improve patient access". So say goodbye to the normal duty day and likely weekends as well. They own your @$$ 24/7, and if you don't think they'll make you come in for extra shifts without extra pay or days off to compensate, I need some of what you're smoking. It's all about catching those "leakage" patients, not quality care given by happy doctors. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ealth-system-reorgainzed-under-bill/83391254/

It's not worth the money. Join only if you ABSOLUTELY WANT to deploy, outside your specialty, repeatedly. Otherwise you're just feeding the beast another unwitting soul.

Serious question: let's say you're a board certified attending. Can you just say no; no I don't want to cancel half my clinic for the day? What happens? I am still waiting on my MD and residency training, so I have something to lose. But what does an attending really have to lose?

I know they could theoretically jail you and all sorts of other things. But will they? I know this may come off as immature, and maybe it is, but if you have nothing to lose why would you let them waste your time?

 

[Homunculus]

Serious question: let's say you're a board certified attending. Can you just say no; no I don't want to cancel half my clinic for the day? What happens? I am still waiting on my MD and residency training, so I have something to lose. But what does an attending really have to lose?

I know they could theoretically jail you and all sorts of other things. But will they? I know this may come off as immature, and maybe it is, but if you have nothing to lose why would you let them waste your time?

no. it's a lawful order and the patients aren't "yours" per se. if your leadership wants to screw your patients, you can resist to a degree but like the borg it's futile. you won't go to jail-- more than likely just get a counseling, or they will not approve favorable things like leave, passes, conferences, etc. if they really are pissed they may dig up some deployment, NTC rotation, admin stuff, etc for you to broaden your career with. most likely though? just a counseling. if it becomes a recurrent issue then they'll ratchet up the pain a bit until you comply.

--your friendly neighborhood control is an illusion caveman