"Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria"

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Finally, I provide psychoeducation that ADHD is (1) a childhood disorder, (2) remits in ~50% of adults, (3) when symptoms are present in adults, there is very high co-morbidity (eg, bipolar ~45%) and differentiation of cognitive symptoms as primary v. secondary is difficult,

I assume the book you cited is where you got this? I have other Stahl's books, but not this one. Does it really say there's 45% comorbidity with bipolar disorder? I find that very high considering only 1% of the population actually has bipolar disorder. I also feel like 50% remittance rate in adults is too high. Guess I need to get the book.

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I assume the book you cited is where you got this? I have other Stahl's books, but not this one. Does it really say there's 45% comorbidity with bipolar disorder? I find that very high considering only 1% of the population actually has bipolar disorder. I also feel like 50% remittance rate in adults is too high. Guess I need to get the book.

Numbers I have seen in the CAP world is that about 2/3 of childhood ADHD patients will not meet criteria for ADHD at full brain maturity. This of course does not mean all symptoms are gone, just that they do not meet DSM criteria.
 
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Numbers I have seen in the CAP world is that about 2/3 of childhood ADHD patients will not meet criteria for ADHD at full brain maturity. This of course does not mean all symptoms are gone, just that they do not meet DSM criteria.

Any more info? The DSM criteria is based on symptoms prior to age 12 so how does it then change as they grow into adulthood? If a kid has symptoms at age 9, then even when that child is 30, they still have that history of symptoms that met criteria and began at the age of 9. Which symptoms improve or remit by adulthood that they no longer meet criteria? I don't know, I'm skeptical of this (not of you, of the research). Definitely some people learn to navigate with it and/or develop compensatory skills and some do improve in general, but 2/3 no longer meeting criteria seems an overestimation.

Would really like to see some studies if you have them saved. I can search on my own if not.
 
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Any more info? The DSM criteria is based on symptoms prior to age 12 so how does it then change as they grow into adulthood? If a kid has symptoms at age 9, then even when that child is 30, they still have that history of symptoms that met criteria and began at the age of 9.
The DSM is based on symptoms being present before age 12, but to meet criteria for the diagnosis now requires symptoms to be present now too, regardless of history.
 
The DSM is based on symptoms being present before age 12, but to meet criteria for the diagnosis now requires symptoms to be present now too, regardless of history.

Right, that's why I said that some do improve but it's why I asked which symptoms typically remit in 2/3 of the population. That's a large portion of the ADHD population to not meet criteria.
 
Numbers I have seen in the CAP world is that about 2/3 of childhood ADHD patients will not meet criteria for ADHD at full brain maturity. This of course does not mean all symptoms are gone, just that they do not meet DSM criteria.

What I would guess is that a large proportion of males who were being treated for primarily hyperactive symptoms will end up not meeting criteria anymore as adults or even as older teenagers. This is the trend we end up seeing anecdotally at least and a decent proportion of those guys actually want to get off stimulants or will self discontinue those as they don't really love the way they feel on them. However, I'd have to actually look if the data on this actually gets that specific.
 
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Right, that's why I said that some do improve but it's why I asked which symptoms typically remit in 2/3 of the population. That's a large portion of the ADHD population to not meet criteria.
Hyperactivity and impulsivity usually improve over the course of childhood/adolescence. As does executive dysfunction (probably because people learn skills/workarounds). Much of the dysfunction associated with ADHD has to do with the fact that traditional school is an inappropriate environment for kids with ADHD. Once people grow up and can choose a more suitable environment, it causes fewer problems, particularly if there are relatively few psychosocial problems.

A chunk of adult "remission" also likely reflects misdiagnoses in childhood.
 
Hyperactivity and impulsivity usually improve over the course of childhood/adolescence. As does executive dysfunction (probably because people learn skills/workarounds).

Already accounted for the skills/workarounds above. I buy that hyperactivity and impulsivity may improve but to the tune of 2/3 of patients? Would like to see the evidence.

Much of the dysfunction associated with ADHD has to do with the fact that traditional school is an inappropriate environment for kids with ADHD. Once people grow up and can choose a more suitable environment, it causes fewer problems, particularly if there are relatively few psychosocial problems.

That's not so much remission as skills/ability to navigate in other environments. But again, 2/3?

A chunk of adult "remission" also likely reflects misdiagnoses in childhood.

I'll buy that, but numbers still seem high.

My skepticism is related to this push to get people off stimulants and the (erroneous) comparison to the opioid epidemic which is swinging the other direction. If these numbers are based on actual peer review data, fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.
 
Just reading this, and having no knowledge on this, one theory came to me: Do stimulant drugs possibly treat the underlying causes of ADHD long-term and would that explain the remission?
 
Just reading this, and having no knowledge on this, one theory came to me: Do stimulant drugs possibly treat the underlying causes of ADHD long-term and would that explain the remission?

No.
 
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Do you know that, or is that a gut instinct? Antidepressants change the architecture of the brain after just one dose; it seems plausible that stimulants over the developmental period of the brain might cause long-term changes—beneficial, perhaps. As in the case with bipolar where medication is known to prevent brain damage from manic and depressive episodes.
 
Already accounted for the skills/workarounds above. I buy that hyperactivity and impulsivity may improve but to the tune of 2/3 of patients? Would like to see the evidence.



That's not so much remission as skills/ability to navigate in other environments. But again, 2/3?



I'll buy that, but numbers still seem high.

My skepticism is related to this push to get people off stimulants and the (erroneous) comparison to the opioid epidemic which is swinging the other direction. If these numbers are based on actual peer review data, fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.
I agree with you. I don't really care whether someone even had symptoms as a kids. If they have adhd symptoms now that negatively impact life and meds help, who cares about the epidemiology.
 
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Already accounted for the skills/workarounds above. I buy that hyperactivity and impulsivity may improve but to the tune of 2/3 of patients? Would like to see the evidence.

That's not so much remission as skills/ability to navigate in other environments. But again, 2/3?

I'll buy that, but numbers still seem high.

My skepticism is related to this push to get people off stimulants and the (erroneous) comparison to the opioid epidemic which is swinging the other direction. If these numbers are based on actual peer review data, fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.
There are some very good population studies of ADHD in the UK, Egypt, Scandinavia, and Australia off the top of my head that are able to trace patients longitudinally much easier due to their national health care registry. Keep in mind that ADHD can be a delay in the formation of the neural pathways rather than just permanent dysfunction. We see teenagers and young adults on a regular basis who age out of stimulants, finding the treatment begins to worsen symptoms or be unnecessary even full brain maturity has been reached (both in hyperactive and inattentive subtypes, although it is certainly true raw hyperactivity is the sx most likely to improve over time).

Research has not been able to identify the characteristics of who will "age out" as best I know, but there may have been more published on this area in the past 5 years as it seems ripe for some machine learning algos to churn through.
 
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There are some very good population studies of ADHD in the UK, Egypt, Scandinavia, and Australia off the top of my head that are able to trace patients longitudinally much easier due to their national health care registry. Keep in mind that ADHD can be a delay in the formation of the neural pathways rather than just permanent dysfunction. We see teenagers and young adults on a regular basis who age out of stimulants, finding the treatment begins to worsen symptoms or be unnecessary even full brain maturity has been reached (both in hyperactive and inattentive subtypes, although it is certainly true raw hyperactivity is the sx most likely to improve over time).

Research has not been able to identify the characteristics of who will "age out" as best I know, but there may have been more published on this area in the past 5 years as it seems ripe for some machine learning algos to churn through.

I have been reviewing the literature since last night and haven't been able to find anything that confirms those numbers. Anyone else know? It's hard to believe they'd teach these figures without the literature, but for the life of me I can't find it.

I remain skeptical.
 
I have been reviewing the literature since last night and haven't been able to find anything that confirms those numbers. Anyone else know? It's hard to believe they'd teach these figures without the literature, but for the life of me I can't find it.

I remain skeptical.
I have several attendings who regularly tell patients "we know from research that chronic marijuana use will make your anxiety and depression worse." I've tried to find research to back this up and the best I can tell, aside from the relationship with psychosis, the research on chronic use of THC in regards to psychiatric symptoms is inconclusive. My theory is that there are a lot of people in medicine who are biased against substances that make people feel good and cherry-pick studies that confirm their biases. I think if ADHD was treated with SSRIs, no one would care about who "ages out."
 
I have several attendings who regularly tell patients "we know from research that chronic marijuana use will make your anxiety and depression worse." I've tried to find research to back this up and the best I can tell, aside from the relationship with psychosis, the research on chronic use of THC in regards to psychiatric symptoms is inconclusive. My theory is that there are a lot of people in medicine who are biased against substances that make people feel good and cherry-pick studies that confirm their biases. I think if ADHD was treated with SSRIs, no one would care about who "ages out."

Literally the first google scholar hit for "cannabis anxiety":


There is a more clearly established dose-response relationship as regards psychosis for sure, but a) using a lot of marijuana does not seem, at best, to prevent the development of depression or anxiety in people predisposed towards and b) our most successful therapies for anxiety to date all center around not engaging in avoidance and safety behaviors. It is hard to imagine a more pure safety behavior than getting high when you don't feel good. Take the empirical evidence plus a compelling theoretical explanation together and I reckon you have good reason to be concerned that MJ use does not make things better in this regard and probably makes them worse for many people.
 
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Literally the first google scholar hit for "cannabis anxiety":


There is a more clearly established dose-response relationship as regards psychosis for sure, but a) using a lot of marijuana does not seem, at best, to prevent the development of depression or anxiety in people predisposed towards and b) our most successful therapies for anxiety to date all center around not engaging in avoidance and safety behaviors. It is hard to imagine a more pure safety behavior than getting high when you don't feel good. Take the empirical evidence plus a compelling theoretical explanation together and I reckon you have good reason to be concerned that MJ use does not make things better in this regard and probably makes them worse for many people.
I agree with you in general and think your bring up good points. I should have clarified that I was thinking about adults not children/adolescents. Logically, a developing brain is more at risk of a psychoactive substance causing problems. I'm also not convinced that the confounders that the researchers used in the paper you cited are necessarily the most likely confounders. To me, this study does not read as a slam dunk indictment against marijuana use, even in teens.

I absolutely do believe that MJ does make things worse for some people, adults included, but my gripe is with the definitive and absolute stance I have seen taken. No evidence of benefit and some mixed and potentially flawed data in a limited population that show possible harm does not equal "this WILL make your anxiety/depression worse." Rather my approach is to say "We don't know for sure. Some people's anxiety and depression clearly gets worse with chronic marijuana use, but many people claim that it helps (or at least doesn't hurt). I think it might be helpful to look closely at what purpose the marijuana is serving and consider a trial of absence to see if things get better or worse."
 
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I absolutely do believe that MJ does make things worse for some people, adults included, but my gripe is with the definitive and absolute stance I have seen taken. No evidence of benefit and some mixed and potentially flawed data in a limited population that show possible harm does not equal "this WILL make your anxiety/depression worse." Rather my approach is to say "We don't know for sure. Some people's anxiety and depression clearly gets worse with chronic marijuana use, but many people claim that it helps (or at least doesn't hurt). I think it might be helpful to look closely at what purpose the marijuana is serving and consider a trial of absence to see if things get better or worse."

I think this ends up being very similar to my approach. "I'm not going to tell you marijuana is the devil and it's not my job to come to your house and smack the blunt out of your hand, it's ultimately up to you. It is true though that whatever it is doing for you you are still really struggling with anxiety/depression/whatever, so in what sense is it working? If your life was on track and everything was fine, sure, why not keep smoking, but since it's not, when I hear about someone who's anxious using something regularly that makes anxiety much worse for some people, I figure, hey, maybe it would make sense to go without for a while and see if it helps."
 
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