Relocation funds and Early Career

[Spydra]

I know that mid or senior level psychologists can be offered relocation funds for recruitment purposes or this is added during salary negotiations, but I've never heard this discussed in regards to early career roles. Job ads are of course no help, rarely do they disclose a salary or salary range, let alone if there is the possibility of relocation funds. So I'm wondering if anyone here received/was offered relocation funds during the early career years (or knows of someone who was). If so I'm interested in how that worked. Were you reimbursed or did the company front the costs? Was this part of the initial compensation package or did you negotiate for it?

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[AcronymAllergy]

I can't speak from personal experience, but I know various VA positions will include relocation funds in the offer, and I don't think it makes a difference whether or not you're early career. Most of the folks I know who received relocation funds (non-psychologists) were reimbursed. I personally would say it's always worthwhile to try to negotiate for relocation funds. They're a pretty reasonable ask (unless you're wanting like $10-20k), and the worst the employer can do is say no. I'd say you may want to negotiate your salary first so that they don't somehow work the relocation funds into a lower salary offer. Sort of like how "they" always say when buying a car to negotiate the price on the car first, then mention you have a trade-in.

 

[summerbabe]

Agree with everything that AA said.

Ultimately, the deciding factor likely isn't career status but supply and demand & clinical necessity. If an org feels good about filling this position quickly and with a qualified candidate without any incentives, it would likely be impossible for even the most qualified person to get that bonus.

But if that org has had trouble filling or keeping the spot filled and it's negatively impacting care/metrics/etc, they may offer it up front or be open to negotiation.

So knowledge about the local job market can very much be used to your advantage. Good luck!

 

[Ollie123]

Totally normal/expected for academic jobs. I've never heard of it not being provided.

I got something like 3k as a post-doc (not much for a "family" size move, but it helps and I was happy since I wasn't used to it!). I forget offhand what I gave my post-docs but it was similar.

I got full reimbursement including packing for my current position, which was like 14k. Some places cap it at 10k but I've never heard of it not being offered, at least at the university level - can't speak for tiny, likely more budget-constrained SLACs. Due to changes in federal taxation laws, the way it works changed a bit a few years ago and I believe it now counts as taxable income even if reimbursed (so you lose some unless they top it up) but nothing to be done about that.

 

[WisNeuro]

I had a relo package for my last VA job, as well as when I got my last non-PP job. I negotiated it in the latter, it was part of the recruitment package in the former.

 

[Spydra]

Thank you all for your responses. Plenty more to think about as I ponder post residency options.

 

[psycho1391]

I know that mid or senior level psychologists can be offered relocation funds for recruitment purposes or this is added during salary negotiations, but I've never heard this discussed in regards to early career roles. Job ads are of course no help, rarely do they disclose a salary or salary range, let alone if there is the possibility of relocation funds. So I'm wondering if anyone here received/was offered relocation funds during the early career years (or knows of someone who was). If so I'm interested in how that worked. Were you reimbursed or did the company front the costs? Was this part of the initial compensation package or did you negotiate for it?

I would say for my position (about 1 year postdoc) that I got a 24k relocation incentive through the VAMC. This particular VAMC is in a metro area.
For VAMC positions, the relocation incentive is offered as a lump sum or equal payments over a predetermined period of time. I took mine as a lump sum.

Usually for VAMC positions, the listing will say whether the position is eligible for an incentive.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

So I've apparently significantly underestimated the size of relocation packages/incentives. I'm pleasantly surprised.

 

[WisNeuro]

So I've apparently significantly underestimated the size of relocation packages/incentives. I'm pleasantly surprised.

I think that one may be on the higher end. I've only heard of people getting 3-6k. Physicians I know have gotten larger ones, but in the rare circumstances that psychologists got them, they were smaller. This is a while back now, though, so I wonder if they are upping their recruitment game as positions have been harder to fill.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think that one may be on the higher end. I've only heard of people getting 3-6k. Physicians I know have gotten larger ones, but in the rare circumstances that psychologists got them, they were smaller. This is a while back now, though, so I wonder if they are upping their recruitment game as positions have been harder to fill.

Yep, those are the numbers I'd been used to hearing as well. If they're consistently higher now, that's great.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It also can depend on how far, how much they want you (govt positions often have limits), and how you negotiate any other compensation. I’ve always gotten relocation $$ ($5k-$10k) and/or worked out a sign on bonus, as that helps w any incidental expenses that may pop up in the first few months. For sign on bonuses, typically a job will req. you stay at least 1yr or you’d have to pay back a %.

 

[Spydra]

Now I'm wondering if I missed the lecture on salary negotiations.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I have seen $10,000, $15,000, and $20,000. Direct billing to the employer. Often they gross up for tax burden, in my experience.

 

[Ollie123]

Note that research faculty positions differ greatly from clinical positions, so keep that in mind with the numbers I listed above as that is what I was referencing. These are invariably competitive national (or even international) searches. They're usually handing you a startup of substantial size (50k low end, 1 million+ high end) and may be doing major building renovations to accommodate your lab. Currently on a search committee and I'm certain we are sinking 1k+ per candidate just on the interview (flight, 1-2 nights of hotel, hiring car service, wining & dining). We have a very nice setup but I don't think we are an outlier in our interview process for these types of roles. When you consider those numbers, 10-15k relocation costs is still a drop in the bucket.

I would not necessarily expect 10-15k relocation for a staff psychologist position at a CMHC, random local hospital, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

Note that research faculty positions differ greatly from clinical positions, so keep that in mind with the numbers I listed above as that is what I was referencing. These are invariably competitive national (or even international) searches. They're usually handing you a startup of substantial size (50k low end, 1 million+ high end) and may be doing major building renovations to accommodate your lab. Currently on a search committee and I'm certain we are sinking 1k+ per candidate just on the interview (flight, 1-2 nights of hotel, hiring car service, wining & dining). We have a very nice setup but I don't think we are an outlier in our interview process for these types of roles. When you consider those numbers, 10-15k relocation costs is still a drop in the bucket.

I would not necessarily expect 10-15k relocation for a staff psychologist position at a CMHC, random local hospital, etc.

Agree, especially with many places reducing doctoral level staff and hiring more midlevels

 

[psycho1391]

I think that one may be on the higher end. I've only heard of people getting 3-6k. Physicians I know have gotten larger ones, but in the rare circumstances that psychologists got them, they were smaller. This is a while back now, though, so I wonder if they are upping their recruitment game as positions have been harder to fill.

I will say that my position is a program manager position with chronic pain. It was a 2 year contract.

 

[nicolascagephd]

I know that mid or senior level psychologists can be offered relocation funds for recruitment purposes or this is added during salary negotiations, but I've never heard this discussed in regards to early career roles. Job ads are of course no help, rarely do they disclose a salary or salary range, let alone if there is the possibility of relocation funds. So I'm wondering if anyone here received/was offered relocation funds during the early career years (or knows of someone who was). If so I'm interested in how that worked. Were you reimbursed or did the company front the costs? Was this part of the initial compensation package or did you negotiate for it?

I just went through the job search process and received 5 offers. 2 included relocation, 2 included a large sign on bonus, and 1 initially offered neither. I did not need to negotiate for any of these, but I tried to negotiate with the one that offered neither and they came back with a very low sign on bonus compared to the other sites.

 

[neurotic_cow]

I’m early career and have received 7500 for relocation for two jobs in the past year. One of them required me to submit receipts and then reimbursed me for only the amount that I used up to that amount, the other is just giving me a lump sum. They both count as taxable income. The first job did offer to front the cost for the moving company but then after the movers quoted them 15000, they were just like “yeah we’re not doing that” and capped it at 7500. But some of the other jobs I interviewed for recently (all AMC/hospital settings) were offering 10k+ for relocation.

 

[SikeThatsTheWrongNumber]

I think that one may be on the higher end. I've only heard of people getting 3-6k. Physicians I know have gotten larger ones, but in the rare circumstances that psychologists got them, they were smaller. This is a while back now, though, so I wonder if they are upping their recruitment game as positions have been harder to fill.

Current VA recruitment incentives may sum up to the annual starting base salary (after locality and/or specialty salary rate adjustment), across a service period of no more than 4 years. They can actually exceed that dollar amount with OPM approval. The job announcement must indicate that it is eligible for a recruitment incentive.

So if GS-13 Step 1 base pay rate were $100,000, one could feasibly negotiate a recruitment incentive amounting to $25,000 per year for 4 years. Or $50,000 per year for 2 years.

The catch is that one must stay on VA duty for the service period agreement. But in reality, it isn’t really a catch… from my lay read of the publication, there are no tricky legalese statements about negative accrual or selling one’s soul (which is sadly often the case for new veterinarians joining a private practice animal hospital, for example).

 

[WisNeuro]

Current VA recruitment incentives may sum up to the annual starting base salary (after locality and/or specialty salary rate adjustment), across a service period of no more than 4 years. They can actually exceed that dollar amount with OPM approval. The job announcement must indicate that it is eligible for a recruitment incentive.

So if GS-13 Step 1 base pay rate were $100,000, one could feasibly negotiate a recruitment incentive amounting to $25,000 per year for 4 years. Or $50,000 per year for 2 years.

The catch is that one must stay on VA duty for the service period agreement. But in reality, it isn’t really a catch… from my lay read of the publication, there are no tricky legalese statements about negative accrual or selling one’s soul (which is sadly often the case for new veterinarians joining a private practice animal hospital, for example).

Key word, may. At least in the past, you never say anything even close, as we usually had a dozen plus applications for any spot we advertised for. Maybe nowadays with the VA hemorrhaging providers in some locales.

 

[SikeThatsTheWrongNumber]

Key word, may. At least in the past, you never say anything even close, as we usually had a dozen plus applications for any spot we advertised for. Maybe nowadays with the VA hemorrhaging providers in some locales.

Indeed. Which is why I used that key word in my response.

 

[psycho1391]

The catch is that one must stay on VA duty for the service period agreement. But in reality, it isn’t really a catch…

Yeah. Not much of a catch. I was told that since I took a lump sum that I would have to pay back a prorated amount depending on when I quit in the 2 year service agreement.

If I had taken the payments broken down into 26 even payments, that wouldn't even be a problem.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

This year, one of my trainees was offered a sign-on bonus (~10k) for every VA but one that she applied for. Variety of VAs, city and rural. I was shocked. They must be having significant trouble.

 

[WisNeuro]

This year, one of my trainees was offered a sign-on bonus (~10k) for every VA but one that she applied for. Variety of VAs, city and rural. I was shocked. They must be having significant trouble.

It is a different world in the VA compared to a decade+ ago. Our local VA, one of the flagships, has had a lot of positions open in the past year, some with multiple rounds of posting. They used to rarely have openings open unless a unit was expanding, and they usually filled those postings very easily.

 

[summerbabe]

This year, one of my trainees was offered a sign-on bonus (~10k) for every VA but one that she applied for. Variety of VAs, city and rural. I was shocked. They must be having significant trouble.

It's a bloodbath out there in some locations.

I work in a virtual VA role and I've been on multiple consultation-focused Teams calls with other VA providers who have literally broken down in tears in the middle of the call due to feeling so overwhelmed increased veteran enrollment/access demands, staffing difficulties (people leaving and not being able to fill that position, especially in-person jobs at some sites) plus general VA admin burden. I won't name this facility publically but I'd rather stock shelves at Target than work as a therapist there.

So the good thing is that there are lots of jobs out there in VA land. The bad thing is that if a site is offering a sign-on bonus for regular BHIP positions, the burnout potential of that job might not be worth the trouble.

There are sites that aren't quite at that level and being really proactive with recruitment and even getting their psychologists special pay rates to try to recruit/retain staff.

But I would venture that the majority who are offering significant bonuses, including to unlicensed folks, are doing so out of desperation and it might not be a terrible idea for your trainee to think a little bit ahead about the next move and what that might look like.

If fully virtual VA jobs start offering recruitment bonus, then we'll really know that VA is in a world of hurt.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah, the VA seems to be in a world of hurt currently when it comes to provider staffing, particularly in mental health. Even a couple years back, I was seeing more attrition than had been the norm for the five or so years before that.

Maybe this will be the catalyst that gets them to start findings ways to adjust psychologist pay upwards. I know we lost out on a couple folks because VA was unwilling to get into even the same neighborhood (via incoming Step rating) as other offers psychologists had received.

 

[R. Matey]

Maybe this will be the catalyst that gets them to start findings ways to adjust psychologist pay upwards. I know we lost out on a couple folks because VA was unwilling to get into even the same neighborhood (via incoming Step rating) as other offers psychologists had received.

I also don't hear good things about the working conditions...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I also don't hear good things about the working conditions...

I do think VA gets a bad rap sometimes about working conditions, and there are definitely positive aspects to the job, but I also agree with basically everything being said in the VA vent thread.

 

[WisNeuro]

I also don't hear good things about the working conditions...

I can only speak for neuro, but the working conditions while I was there were pretty good. If anything, I was underworked, but I had adequate office space and admin support. I was also at some of the flagships, so the physical space was pretty good. Pretty comparable to some other non-VA hospital settings. Those things were never really my beefs with the VA.

 

[R. Matey]

I can only speak for neuro, but the working conditions while I was there were pretty good. If anything, I was underworked, but I had adequate office space and admin support. I was also at some of the flagships, so the physical space was pretty good. Pretty comparable to some other non-VA hospital settings. Those things were never really my beefs with the VA.

I'd probably have a staff position, maybe in PMHC because of my PC-focused clinical postdoc, if I were to work there. You've said yourself many times that ppl could make more working less hours in PP and likely lead happier lives.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd probably have a staff position, maybe in PMHC because of my PC-focused clinical postdoc, if I were to work there. You've said yourself many times that ppl could make more working less hours in PP and likely lead happier lives.

Definitely. The working less making more is obviously much easier if you do some consulting/IME work, but you can make more clinically as well. Also, you have to not mind the business side of things, which some people absolutely hate.

 

[R. Matey]

Definitely. The working less making more is obviously much easier if you do some consulting/IME work, but you can make more clinically as well. Also, you have to not mind the business side of things, which some people absolutely hate.

I've worked in enough clinical systems to know that I would be miserable if I ever went back to one to do full time practice. I'd rather figure out the business side of things.

 

[WisNeuro]

I've worked in enough clinical systems to know that I would be miserable if I ever went back to one to do full time practice. I'd rather figure out the business side of things.

Yeah, flexibility and control are more important to me than pretty much anything else. And, making more for less time allows for some more family time.

 

[summerbabe]

I think a current key to being content in VA is either having found a good gig and then just try to stay under the radar or have the willingness to move around because there are absolutely many good to great positions out there.

But also tons of terrible VA jobs. And if you stay in them, they will only likely get worse.

Right now, seemingly everybody is looking to hire, including and especially poaching from other VAs, which seems like it’s happening to greater degrees recently.

 

[Spydra]

It is a different world in the VA compared to a decade+ ago. Our local VA, one of the flagships, has had a lot of positions open in the past year, some with multiple rounds of posting. They used to rarely have openings open unless a unit was expanding, and they usually filled those postings very easily.

I thought it was just me noticing this. It does seem like VA ads are up longer and reposted and there are more sign on bonuses mentioned. I'm actually noticing more and larger sign on bonuses outside of the VA as well. I get that a sign on bonus is different from relocation funds, but I do wonder if it is a bad sign.