Research LOR: PI vs Grad Student

[bipolarbear123]

I want to get a LOR from someone who supervised me during research at my UG. I met my GSI from one of my lab classes, and she "recruited" me to her lab, where I worked under her. I would like her to write my LOR instead of my PI, who has not known me as long and has had minimal interaction with me (honestly, he probably doesn't even know what I'm doing... he focuses on the grad students, obviously). I love my grad student and I think she'd have a lot of great things to say, but will this letter be weak if it isn't written by my PI? Does it even matter? I emailed the schools that I'll be applying to to see if they have a preference, but I thought I would get other opinions, as well. Thanks!

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[nyanko]

PI. Without a doubt.

You could request from the grad student and PI together that they collaborate. But the PI has to be the one to put their name on it.

 

[LetItSnow]

I want to get a LOR from someone who supervised me during research at my UG. I met my GSI from one of my lab classes, and she "recruited" me to her lab, where I worked under her. I would like her to write my LOR instead of my PI, who has not known me as long and has had minimal interaction with me (honestly, he probably doesn't even know what I'm doing... he focuses on the grad students, obviously). I love my grad student and I think she'd have a lot of great things to say, but will this letter be weak if it isn't written by my PI? Does it even matter? I emailed the schools that I'll be applying to to see if they have a preference, but I thought I would get other opinions, as well. Thanks!

I think I'd consider finding a tactful way to ask the grad student to write it and the PI sign it. Might as well get the best of both worlds.

 

[Fireflysushi]

I agree with Nyanko and LIS. You shouldn't let the grad student be the only one on the LOR, but because they probably know you better, the GS and PI should collaborate on your LOR or as LIS said your PI should sign off on a letter that the grad student writes. The first option would be best.

I also think that a letter from a grad student doen't pull that much weight in the eyes of an adcom. Just my opinion though.

 

[bipolarbear123]

I agree with Nyanko and LIS. You shouldn't let the grad student be the only one on the LOR, but because they probably know you better, the GS and PI should collaborate on your LOR or as LIS said your PI should sign off on a letter that the grad student writes. The first option would be best.

I also think that a letter from a grad student doen't pull that much weight in the eyes of an adcom. Just my opinion though.

Can two evaluators sign one letter? I thought that that was technically a committee letter?

 

[LetItSnow]

Can two evaluators sign one letter? I thought that that was technically a committee letter?

No, only one can. But that doesn't mean it has to be the person that wrote it.

I wouldn't try and be sly/tricky about it or anything, but I'd just meet with them both, explain what you need, and say something like: "I think the letter would carry more weight coming from you, Dr. so-n-so, but I believe Bob here is more familiar with my work. If Bob is willing to write a recommendation, would you be willing to sign it?"

I dunno. Something like that. How you broach it depends on the nature of your relationship with them.

You can submit committee letters. I wouldn't.

 

[bipolarbear123]

No, only one can. But that doesn't mean it has to be the person that wrote it.

I wouldn't try and be sly/tricky about it or anything, but I'd just meet with them both, explain what you need, and say something like: "I think the letter would carry more weight coming from you, Dr. so-n-so, but I believe Bob here is more familiar with my work. If Bob is willing to write a recommendation, would you be willing to sign it?"

I dunno. Something like that. How you broach it depends on the nature of your relationship with them.

You can submit committee letters. I wouldn't.

Okay, that makes me nervous! I'll probably end up asking though. What's wrong with a committee letter (I don't even quite understand what this is, just read about it on VMCAS)

 

[Minnerbelle]

Can two evaluators sign one letter? I thought that that was technically a committee letter?

No, committee letters are different. That's sent by a health professions committee at your school that your individual LORs get scanned into. Even with a committee letter, you need to have your letter be sent in by your PI (even though I guess if it's completely scanned in they could both sign it). BUT even if you send a committee letter, if you want your LOR from your lab to count, you'll ALSO have to the have it electronically submit each LOR through VMCAS. For that you absolutely can only have one sender and you want your PI to do that. If you do a committee letter it's an "extra" letter that may or may not even be read (and generally redundant because you've submitted 3-4 of your letters electronically anyway). I've heard that some schools love them, others just throw them straight into the trash.

As for asking, don't worry about it, any PI or grad student should understand. The PI should be used to this. This is how it works for any grad school/med school/vet school/etc application. You don't even need to try to manipulate them into doing it this way. Just go to your grad student first and talk to him/her if you're not used to talking with your PI and ask for him/her to give input into the letter, and also what the best way to approach your PI is.

My boss that I worked with was a faculty PhD researcher who was not the PI. I was a little conflicted because I didn't want him to get hurt because he himself is an established scientist (25 yrs in the field, 10 yrs in this lab, great publications, and an editor for at least one good journal). But when I talked to him about my LOR, he was like, "oh don't be stupid, you absolutely NEED to have the PI send it"

 

[Katie8]

I dont know if anyone has touched on this, but don't some schools only accept a letter from DVM's and PI's or other kinds of doctorate degrees? (not including committee letters). While I'm sure your grad student would write a wonderful letter, I just wonder which schools would actually take it into consideration. But I could totally be wrong, I can't remember what the specific guidelines were for each school anymore!

 

[OH Bunny Girl]

PI. Without a doubt.

You could request from the grad student and PI together that they collaborate. But the PI has to be the one to put their name on it.

This. And most PIs are so busy that it will probably be a much better quality letter if the grad student writes it and the PI signs it.

 

[SocialStigma]

Definitely PI.

I was in a similar situation with one of my vet LORs, there were 3 vets at the clinic but only 1 tech so I ended up getting to know the tech a lot better than any of the vets. The tech wrote my LOR and one of the vets signed it.

 

[princesspeaches]

I worked very closely with a post-doc in grad school that I felt could write be a better LOR than my PI--I knew it'd be positive, but probably fairly vague. I asked both of them to write me a letter (plus a vet I'd worked for and another professor). I can't see how an additional very positive LOR could hurt, even if it's not from a PhD or DVM.

 

[nyanko]

I worked very closely with a post-doc in grad school that I felt could write be a better LOR than my PI--I knew it'd be positive, but probably fairly vague. I asked both of them to write me a letter (plus a vet I'd worked for and another professor). I can't see how an additional very positive LOR could hurt, even if it's not from a PhD or DVM.

Well there's the fact that some schools will only read 3 LORs. And the fact that a better LOR from a PI (with the grad student/postdoc's input) >>> a so-so letter from a PI and a glowing rec from a grad student/postdoc.

also, a postdoc is better than a grad student if you really, really really have a burning desire to have a non-lab-leader LOR for some reason.

It's really common for a PI to talk to grad students and postdocs who worked more closely with a research tech/undergrad in the lab when they are writing a LOR for the person. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to ask at all - my PI asked me for input on undergrads' LORs a handful of times, and I know when she was writing mine she asked for input from our colony vet and the other veterinarian/researchers I worked closely with in addition to writing her own observations (because she would tell me what they said, haha).

 

[princesspeaches]

Well there's the fact that some schools will only read 3 LORs. And the fact that a better LOR from a PI (with the grad student/postdoc's input) >>> a so-so letter from a PI and a glowing rec from a grad student/postdoc.

also, a postdoc is better than a grad student if you really, really really have a burning desire to have a non-lab-leader LOR for some reason.

It's really common for a PI to talk to grad students and postdocs who worked more closely with a research tech/undergrad in the lab when they are writing a LOR for the person. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to ask at all - my PI asked me for input on undergrads' LORs a handful of times, and I know when she was writing mine she asked for input from our colony vet and the other veterinarian/researchers I worked closely with in addition to writing her own observations (because she would tell me what they said, haha).

It wasn't an issue with the schools I applied to, so I guess I should add an YMMV caveat to my post. My PI was very well known in his field so I really wanted his name on a letter, but he's also a full-time faculty member in another country and I couldn't swing coordinating with him and the post-doc to write me a letter with his name on it. If your PI can't or won't sign a letter written by someone else, that's when I'd explore having extra letters.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If your PI can't or won't sign a letter written by someone else, that's when I'd explore having extra letters.

I agree with this, that is definitely a legit backup option. But if you can, I think it would be better to have 1 letter coming from the lab, for the reasons nyanko stated. I think it's an exception rather than the rule that the PI won't collaborate with someone else to write your letter. At least of the people I know who worked more with post-docs/grad students than the PI themselves, the PI was well aware of the fact that they didn't know the applicant all that well even if they wanted to write a positive letter. In almost all cases, the PI either just asked the post-doc for info in-person/via email OR just had the post-doc write a draft that the PI then edited and sent out.

If you work in a lab with DVM's it's one thing, but otherwise, you're using up 2 precious LORs coming from 1 experience that's not veterinary. Esp if you're a traditional applicant, most vet schools want 1 academic reference and at least one vet reference. For the places that you can designate 3 LOR's, I would personally rather have a GOOD letter signed by the PI, rather than have to pick between the luke-warm generic one by the PI or the good letter by the non-PI.

Also, Post-doc wouldn't be so bad but I'd be a little bit wary of getting a letter from a grad student... because even if they're not your peers per se, they're not technically researchers yet. It's kinda like if you're shadowing at a teaching hospital, and you're asking a 4th year student that you followed every week to write for you because that 4th year knows you far better than any of the attendings. Post-docs, residents, and even interns at least have gotten through the schooling and are doctors.

 

[bipolarbear123]

I agree with this, that is definitely a legit backup option. But if you can, I think it would be better to have 1 letter coming from the lab, for the reasons nyanko stated. I think it's an exception rather than the rule that the PI won't collaborate with someone else to write your letter. At least of the people I know who worked more with post-docs/grad students than the PI themselves, the PI was well aware of the fact that they didn't know the applicant all that well even if they wanted to write a positive letter. In almost all cases, the PI either just asked the post-doc for info in-person/via email OR just had the post-doc write a draft that the PI then edited and sent out.

If you work in a lab with DVM's it's one thing, but otherwise, you're using up 2 precious LORs coming from 1 experience that's not veterinary. Esp if you're a traditional applicant, most vet schools want 1 academic reference and at least one vet reference. For the places that you can designate 3 LOR's, I would personally rather have a GOOD letter signed by the PI, rather than have to pick between the luke-warm generic one by the PI or the good letter by the non-PI.

Also, Post-doc wouldn't be so bad but I'd be a little bit wary of getting a letter from a grad student... because even if they're not your peers per se, they're not technically researchers yet. It's kinda like if you're shadowing at a teaching hospital, and you're asking a 4th year student that you followed every week to write for you because that 4th year knows you far better than any of the attendings. Post-docs, residents, and even interns at least have gotten through the schooling and are doctors.

True. I understand how it would look. I've put together a powerpoint presentation on my research and scheduled an appointment with my PI and grad student to talk about a collaborative LOR. I am a traditional student and want to get into vet research, so I suppose a LOR signed by a PI is pretty important. Thanks for all the advice; it's been really helpful!