Residency Directors Giving Thumbs Up to Interviewers

[Kaustikos]

So,
I found out certain directors (despite nrmp) have been telling medical students at my school they'll get in their program for sure. Not only that , one director even told me he does that (not one I applied to). I know rules are broken, but don't they deserve to be told to stfu about it instead of braghing? I wish the program I applied to did this only because it's obvious other programs do it.
How common is this? And how irritated should I be that they're so open about it? I don't want to hear it because they're cheating/breaking rules but don't semester to care.

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[deleted480308]

This might be ignorance speaking, but what does it hurt for them to tell you that they'll rank you (or someone else)?

 

[IlDestriero]

Non binding verbal ass kissing to get you to rank them higher, and then not match there anyway, isn't necessarily against the rules, and it works both ways. And people are FoS, so take it with a grain of salt.
We had a couple people not match into our fellowship from the home program this year and complain bitterly to their Chairman. Apparently they think we owe them something. I can tell you we didn't tell them we would rank them to match.
The match can be a shady affair. It was so much nicer when I was looking for a fellowship. If they liked you they offered you a spot. Maybe you took it, maybe you did a couple more interviews. It was easier all around.
But one thing it did was to was open us up to some new residency programs that we had not accepted applicants from before. I think the caliber of fellows may have actually improved.

 

[deleted480308]

Non binding verbal ass kissing to get you to rank them higher, and then not match there anyway, isn't necessarily against the rules, and it works both ways. And people are FoS, so take it with a grain of salt.
We had a couple people not match into our fellowship from the home program this year and complain bitterly to their Chairman. Apparently they think we owe them something. I can tell you we didn't tell them we would rank them to match.
The match can be a shady affair. It was so much nicer when I was looking for a fellowship. If they liked you they offered you a spot. Maybe you took it, maybe you did a couple more interviews. It was easier all around.
But one thing it did was to was open us up to some new residency programs that we had not accepted applicants from before. I think the caliber of fellows may have actually improved.

I totally get the emotional nuisance. But if I understand the match algorithm right, where the student ranks programs doesn't actually change the odds of them getting in at all.....but it might change where they get in. I guess I could see an issue if my first two program interviews swear I'm getting in so I cancel a few and then end up not matching. That would be the worst.

 

[IlDestriero]

Yes. That's correct. You'll match or not, but telling the group of candidates that they prefer that they're awesome superstars and that they would be lucky to have such an awesome resident at their program, etc. might make you rank them higher and therefore more likely to end up at that program.

 

[operaman]

I'm reminded of an adage from my past life:

Until you have a signed contract, everything else is just rumor.

Every year we hear about people who heard similar things and matched lower on their list. If I were a PD who did this, I would probably reach out to everyone in my likely match range, but if I filled much higher than usual, there would be a handful of students who were told they were ranked to match who ultimately didn't. Truthfully it doesn't really matter. The only thing I can think of that this would affect would be giving some people a jump on finding housing since they'd be able to make offers before everyone else knows. Not sure I would trust any of these messages enough to base such a big decision on it though!

I think it's highly program/field dependent on who sends these kind of messages to students. Some only send them to students who send them letters first. Some places I interviewed clearly stated that they would not be contacting any of us prior to match day. Everywhere I went very openly ranked us immediately following interviews (ie. all the faculty were filing into the conference room as we were exiting the building), so there seems to be little to gain from either side sending additional post-ranking letters. As for me, I did not send any follow-up letters to programs and none of them have contacted me directly, though I have heard through the grapevine about some calls to my home program. Guess I'll find out soon if that means anything! 17 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes. But who's counting?

 

[Kaustikos]

This might be ignorance speaking, but what does it hurt for them to tell you that they'll rank you (or someone else)?

It'd be putting pressure on you to take the risk of not ranking them higher than other schools. It's like "Well, I have a guaranteed spot here but I like/would love to be at this other school instead"
I'm only saying how annoying it is for a program director to just say that. I'd rather not hear it at all.

I totally get the emotional nuisance. But if I understand the match algorithm right, where the student ranks programs doesn't actually change the odds of them getting in at all.....but it might change where they get in. I guess I could see an issue if my first two program interviews swear I'm getting in so I cancel a few and then end up not matching. That would be the worst.

It puts pressure on them to take their offer instead of trying to go elsewhere. Plus, god forbid the program changes their mind/decides another applicant is better, it'd potentially screw over the student.

Yes. That's correct. You'll match or not, but telling the group of candidates that they prefer that they're awesome superstars and that they would be lucky to have such an awesome resident at their program, etc. might make you rank them higher and therefore more likely to end up at that program.

Yup

It's not a violation to tell candidates where they are ranked.

I misread that. I double checked and you're right. But it just seems shady and downright similar to blackmail. Or not blackmail... coercion. Or something to that effect. I'd just rather they keep it to themselves.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'm reminded of an adage from my past life:

Until you have a signed contract, everything else is just rumor.

Every year we hear about people who heard similar things and matched lower on their list. If I were a PD who did this, I would probably reach out to everyone in my likely match range, but if I filled much higher than usual, there would be a handful of students who were told they were ranked to match who ultimately didn't. Truthfully it doesn't really matter. The only thing I can think of that this would affect would be giving some people a jump on finding housing since they'd be able to make offers before everyone else knows. Not sure I would trust any of these messages enough to base such a big decision on it though!

I think it's highly program/field dependent on who sends these kind of messages to students. Some only send them to students who send them letters first. Some places I interviewed clearly stated that they would not be contacting any of us prior to match day. Everywhere I went very openly ranked us immediately following interviews (ie. all the faculty were filing into the conference room as we were exiting the building), so there seems to be little to gain from either side sending additional post-ranking letters. As for me, I did not send any follow-up letters to programs and none of them have contacted me directly, though I have heard through the grapevine about some calls to my home program. Guess I'll find out soon if that means anything! 17 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes. But who's counting?

My school essentially said you have to send letters because otherwise it makes them look bad/like they don't train the right kind of students. To the point of saying it'd potentially be a Professionalism violation. So, I pretty much sent cards to every program... even ones I had no desire to go to. God forbid I run into this issue with this school (again).

 

[operaman]

My school essentially said you have to send letters because otherwise it makes them look bad/like they don't train the right kind of students. To the point of saying it'd potentially be a Professionalism violation. So, I pretty much sent cards to every program... even ones I had no desire to go to. God forbid I run into this issue with this school (again).

Oh my, that's nuts! Yeah, well, I guess if that's their policy you really didn't have a choice. I had multiple programs say not to send letters and some who said that anyone who sent a letter would not be ranked. I hope they would be lenient in those cases!

 

[Mad Jack]

I totally get the emotional nuisance. But if I understand the match algorithm right, where the student ranks programs doesn't actually change the odds of them getting in at all.....but it might change where they get in. I guess I could see an issue if my first two program interviews swear I'm getting in so I cancel a few and then end up not matching. That would be the worst.

The way the match works, it is advantageous for a PD to have every single candidate rank them as high as possible. Imagine you interviewed 20 candidates, and they all ranked you #1. You would then get exactly which residents you wanted to join your program, in what order you wanted. For candidates, it is advantageous to rank the programs that you like the most and that ranked you highest as highest on your list, as it is unlikely you will be in the situation that several programs rank you as their #1.

These things are, however, impossible to know, so you're best off taking shots in the dark at what programs you like versus what programs make you promises. The reason for this is simple- say a program that you didn't particularly like ranked you #1 and promised you a spot. Even if they're telling the truth, it still makes sense for you to pick the programs you actually liked over the program that made you a promise. Let's say there were 4 programs you liked more. If you failed to match at all of them, you're still going to match the program that ranked you #1 anyway. Or you could match at one of those four better programs, in which case you get a spot you wanted more with no risk of losing your "promised" spot. Finally, and this is what usually happens from what I gather, there's a good chance the perceived "promise" is just a front, a simple attempt to get you to rank them higher despite your best interests.

 

[Mad Jack]

Maybe for you...

Not all of us can be SS.

 

[Druggernaut]

It'd be putting pressure on you to take the risk of not ranking them higher than other schools. It's like "Well, I have a guaranteed spot here but I like/would love to be at this other school instead"
I'm only saying how annoying it is for a program director to just say that. I'd rather not hear it at all.

I don't understand. How does it put pressure on you? My top choice places don't do post-interview feedback, but a few places lower on my list do. It's a nice feeling to get the love letters, but it's not going to move those places higher on my list, because I'd still rather go to the places higher on my rank list.

I feel less pressure because I've heard from a few programs. Even if I don't match at my top choice places, I have some reassurance I'll match somewhere. There's no added risk involved, unless you foolishly drop interviews or don't rank other programs because they told you they hope to see you next July.

 

[Kaustikos]

If they are being honest with the applicants I don't think it is shady.

My med school PD told us all exactly where we stood with the home program. I appreciated his honesty.

So then I should just ask the programs I applied to where I rank?

I don't understand. How does it put pressure on you? My top choice places don't do post-interview feedback, but a few places lower on my list do. It's a nice feeling to get the love letters, but it's not going to move those places higher on my list, because I'd still rather go to the places higher on my rank list.

I feel less pressure because I've heard from a few programs. Even if I don't match at my top choice places, I have some reassurance I'll match somewhere. There's no added risk involved, unless you foolishly drop interviews or don't rank other programs because they told you they hope to see you next July.

If you're applying to competitive specialties or don't know your outcome... I feel that comments like that would definitely weight heavily in your decision. If a Vascular program had told me that... I would have a hard time not putting them high/number 1.

 

[Kaustikos]

That would be a match violation

kill joy.
not really.

Why?

Because of the fact that only one person is accepted at each school.

 

[SLUser11]

So then I should just ask the programs I applied to where I rank?

I know you're being facetious, but you can volunteer where you are going to rank someone, and they can volunteer their own ROL, but neither team can ask for it.

Over the years, many residents and programs alike have become butt-hurt by false amorosity. So, I agree that one should not put too much weight in these promises, and instead they should make their ROL like they heard from nobody, with an intact backup plan in case the program was lying....or simply overstating their interest.

Some other things: I believe writing thank you letters to every program is the most professional approach. You'd be surprised how programs (or people) come back into your life later on, and you don't want to burn any bridges. You also don't want to give your school a bad reputation, as that hurts future applicants.

I think it's perfectly fine, and probably a good idea, to vocalize your interest to your top 1-3 programs. Everyone wants to brag that they only had to go down to #___ to match all their interns, and we know that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[operaman]

The problem is that some people DO change their rank list in response to these calls/emails/etc - either because they don't understand how the match works or because they get wooed by love letters.

My money is on not knowing how the match works. Even within this thread there are people who clearly misunderstand the algorithm. Even if your top choice has you ranked last, you should still rank it number one. Why? Because only 2 things could happen: 1) you match there or 2) you match where you would have anyhow.

For people who get it, the only difference a phone call or love letter should make is peace of mind knowing you'll likely not fall below that on your ROL. Perhaps if you're on the fence between 2 programs, getting some solid interest from one may be reason enough to put it ahead of the other assuming you don't have a quarter handy you can flip.

 

[thyroidectomy]

Just to reiterate/put this to rest: the situation described is not unethical and the OP does not understand the match algorithm.

I wrote this in a previous post, but for review:

You cannot strategically rank programs, per se. An example of the algorithm is on the NRMP website. Basically, your rank list does not affect whether or not you are "ranked to match" at a program, which is determined ONLY by the program's rank list AND how other applicants rank. 2 examples: 1. You are ranked #3 by a program that takes 6 people. You will match at this program (regardless of it's position on your list) if you do not match at a program higher on your list. 2. You are ranked #11 at a place that takes 10. You will only match at this program (regardless of it's position on your list) if and only if 1 or more people ranked 1-10 by the program match at a program higher on their rank lists.