Residency programs with lots of DO's - ?

[eastcoastEM]

I know MD vs DO is probably hotly debated and I'm not trying to start that with this thread.

I'm an allopathic MS4 from the southeast, where we don't have a lot of DO's. I've seen scattered DO's at some of the programs I've interviewed at in the southeast. MCG (Augusta GA) seemed to have more than most, and it's a program that I was not very excited about (nothing to do with the number of DO's, just in general).

One of the programs west of the Mississippi river (my only "western" interview) has about half DO's. The residents seemed SOLID and were great. I know DO students have a hard time getting into some shared MD/DO residencies, so I was wondering if a large number of DO students at a particular program reflected geography (more DO's in the area + some of the faculty are DO) or something else? Should it be a cause for any concern at all when ranking?

Again, this is not to start a DO vs MD war. I have just not seen a program with so many DO's before and don't know that much about the topic.

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[fahimaz7]

For MCG in particular,

The residents there are a fantastic group and very knowledgeable. Some of the DO's that are there were in the military match. One resident in particular was the "top doc" for the military the year before he matriculated into this residency. That group was scoring in the top 5% nationally on the standardized exams.

To make a long story short, I would have zero reservations about ranking MCG and would get very good training if I matched that site. Some of my favorite residents there are DO.

 

[eastcoastEM]

Thanks for the input - but I dislike MCG for other reasons. It was just an example of the only east-coast program I saw that had quite a few DO's.

I was really wondering about midwest/ south central / southwest programs that have half DO's - should it raise any eyebrows?

 

[DocFox]

There are other things to consider especially if I think I know what program you are talking about. The department chair and program director are both DOs (and both very prominent in the state and national level). Nothing is different in the program because of that or because there are a lot of DOs in the program (~40%). There IS an MD vs DO bias among the country and I am thankful that this particular program does not have it. This should not weigh into your opinion of the program whatsoever, treat it like any other program and decide if it's a good fit for you or not.

 

[Tiger10]

Programs in areas closer to DO schools are likely to have more DO residents. DO students = DO rotators = more DO residents. Programs in PA, MI, OH have quite a few DOs and I'm sure MCG gets students from GA PCOM as well as the military match.

 

[John146]

Numerous DO friendly programs in the NE. None out West. Scattered places in the SE that take DO's but probably don't consider ust as MD-equivalents (besides maybe MCG which is a half military program).

I wouldn't be "concerned" by the fact that there are DO's at a program. If there are DO's at the program, it just means the program is DO friendly/unbiased and isn't stuck in traditions of prior generations. It's really sad that numerous programs out there really don't consider MD and DO applicants equal.

Fact - it's soo much harder for DO's to match into allopathic EM programs. Not sure if there is data out there but I'm sure the mean Step I/II scores for DO EM matriculants is significantly higher than MD's. My only point is that DO's who match into allopathic EM programs are typically top of their class, have excellent resumes just like MD students, and quite frankly work their tails off since, sadly, we will always be viewed as just DO's to some.

 

[polygonal]

It is largely because there are much less DOs in the Southeast. I wouldn't "worry" about how many DOs there are. A lot of this reflects past experience with the DOs. Good experience = more DOs.

I am a former MCG grad. There were a few DOs before me but it does seem like a lot more now. Having said that, MCG's inservice scores have been among the very highest (I think top 5 or better) for many years now. They have attracted some extremely bright residents.

I am biased but you may reconsider MCG. Augusta is not the best city (although not terrible) but then again, you're there to learn not sight see. The population there provides lots of very sick and injured pts and high volumes.

I'm at one of the busiest EDs in the country and we actively recruit from them because their residents can handle the high volume of sick pts on day 1.

 

[EMPD]

I think this is one of those issues that likes to raise its head amongst students and applicants. The truth is, a solid applicant is a solid applicant. There are a few programs remaining who rarely if ever match a DO student, but I'm not sure if there are ANY remaining who don't interview stellar DO's. You hear about places that "don't interview DO's' but when I have talked with some of these PD's, they simply exist in a geographic location where DO students rarely rotate, apply, and by virtue of low numbers of applicants, they have a low number of DO's match. I also don't agree with the premise that there are no programs out west that are DO friendly. Look at Maricopa! Coincidentally they have a DO school in the same region. Most DO schools are located in the NE and thus most DO's in practice are in the NE. Obviously they are everywhere, but they are commonly seen in the NE. Where it gets tough for me is when DO does not take the USMLE. Sometimes it can be hard to ultimately rank them compared to the ones who do take the USMLE and against the allopathic applicants. It's easy to see that a set of COMLEX scores of 675/689 are more impressive than a USMLE of 204/206, but how do you compare them when they are low 600's, vs high 220's? It gets tricky. More and more I think DO's should take the USMLE, both steps 1 and 2 personally. I realize it is an added expense, but it really helps us to compare. I am also more likely to understand when a DO applicant has no SLOR but everything else is stellar. Hope that helps.

 

[sylvanthus]

I think this is one of those issues that likes to raise its head amongst students and applicants. The truth is, a solid applicant is a solid applicant. There are a few programs remaining who rarely if ever match a DO student, but I'm not sure if there are ANY remaining who don't interview stellar DO's. You hear about places that "don't interview DO's' but when I have talked with some of these PD's, they simply exist in a geographic location where DO students rarely rotate, apply, and by virtue of low numbers of applicants, they have a low number of DO's match. I also don't agree with the premise that there are no programs out west that are DO friendly. Look at Maricopa! Coincidentally they have a DO school in the same region. Most DO schools are located in the NE and thus most DO's in practice are in the NE. Obviously they are everywhere, but they are commonly seen in the NE. Where it gets tough for me is when DO does not take the USMLE. Sometimes it can be hard to ultimately rank them compared to the ones who do take the USMLE and against the allopathic applicants. It's easy to see that a set of COMLEX scores of 675/689 are more impressive than a USMLE of 204/206, but how do you compare them when they are low 600's, vs high 220's? It gets tricky. More and more I think DO's should take the USMLE, both steps 1 and 2 personally. I realize it is an added expense, but it really helps us to compare. I am also more likely to understand when a DO applicant has no SLOR but everything else is stellar. Hope that helps.

I hate to disagree with a PD but the NRMP program directors survey for 2012 states for EM that 68% of EM programs will interview and rank DOs. So about a third of programs wont even consider us. I would link it but I am on my phone.

 

[John146]

I think this is one of those issues that likes to raise its head amongst students and applicants. The truth is, a solid applicant is a solid applicant. There are a few programs remaining who rarely if ever match a DO student, but I'm not sure if there are ANY remaining who don't interview stellar DO's. You hear about places that "don't interview DO's' but when I have talked with some of these PD's, they simply exist in a geographic location where DO students rarely rotate, apply, and by virtue of low numbers of applicants, they have a low number of DO's match. I also don't agree with the premise that there are no programs out west that are DO friendly. Look at Maricopa! Coincidentally they have a DO school in the same region. Most DO schools are located in the NE and thus most DO's in practice are in the NE. Obviously they are everywhere, but they are commonly seen in the NE. Where it gets tough for me is when DO does not take the USMLE. Sometimes it can be hard to ultimately rank them compared to the ones who do take the USMLE and against the allopathic applicants. It's easy to see that a set of COMLEX scores of 675/689 are more impressive than a USMLE of 204/206, but how do you compare them when they are low 600's, vs high 220's? It gets tricky. More and more I think DO's should take the USMLE, both steps 1 and 2 personally. I realize it is an added expense, but it really helps us to compare. I am also more likely to understand when a DO applicant has no SLOR but everything else is stellar. Hope that helps.

Respectfully disagree in some regards. I will use myself as an example...

I am from San Diego with weak ties to UCSD (parents work there as pharmacists, met the PD, but wasn't able to secure a rotation there, probably because I'm a DO to be honest.) Applicant last year, top 5 class rank, took USMLE and COMLEX, Step I slightly below average, Step II way above average, good letters, extracurriculars, etc.

Applied to every program in California (including UCSD), got 0 interview offers.
Applied to about 12 programs in Texas and the Southeast, got interviews at about 50%.
Applied to about 12 programs in the Northeast, got interviews at about 75%.

There are 2 DO schools in California, 1 in Nevada, 2 or 3 in Arizona, 1 in Washington, and 1 in Colorado. Lots of DO's would love to end up in California but the odds are stacked against you. There is DEFINTELY still a prejudice against DO applicants. If you're lucky enough to crack the barrier have fun in Fresno or Bakersfield

 

[deleted109597]

There is DEFINTELY still a prejudice against DO applicants. If you're lucky enough to crack the barrier have fun in Fresno or Bakersfield

Yep. And there's a prejudice against IMGs and FMGs too. Unfortunately, it's hard to find this information out before actually matriculating, but to argue that something in your power prevents you from doing residency in a state is an argument against your own choices.

And even if you don't do residency in the state, you can still work there after residency.

 

[sylvanthus]

It would be nice if ERAS or program websites just upfront state that they don't take DOs. Would save us money in the application process.

 

[inspirationmd]

It would be nice if ERAS or program websites just upfront state that they don't take DOs. Would save us money in the application process.

Best way to do it would be to look at the classes and count the number of DOs in the entire program. If the number is 0 or some other dismal number then you likely have your answer. If you see 30-40% DOs per class or more then I think you can safely assume you have a good shot at getting an interview assuming you are competitive for EM. Its unfortunate that you guys have to do more leg work but with time hopefully things will get better.

 

[fahimaz7]

Respectfully disagree in some regards. I will use myself as an example...

I am from San Diego with weak ties to UCSD (parents work there as pharmacists, met the PD, but wasn't able to secure a rotation there, probably because I'm a DO to be honest.) Applicant last year, top 5 class rank, took USMLE and COMLEX, Step I slightly below average, Step II way above average, good letters, extracurriculars, etc.

Applied to every program in California (including UCSD), got 0 interview offers.
Applied to about 12 programs in Texas and the Southeast, got interviews at about 50%.
Applied to about 12 programs in the Northeast, got interviews at about 75%.

There are 2 DO schools in California, 1 in Nevada, 2 or 3 in Arizona, 1 in Washington, and 1 in Colorado. Lots of DO's would love to end up in California but the odds are stacked against you. There is DEFINTELY still a prejudice against DO applicants. If you're lucky enough to crack the barrier have fun in Fresno or Bakersfield

I wonder how you would have done with a 250/250? Any idea? What's the MD average for CA residents getting CA interviews?

 

[sylvanthus]

I wonder how you would have done with a 250/250? Any idea? What's the MD average for CA residents getting CA interviews?

I applied to every three year program in cali with 250/250 and have zero interviews.

 

[fahimaz7]

I applied to every three year program in cali with 250/250 and have zero interviews.

Ouch. You're from Cali too, right? No love from 4 year programs? I thought most cali ones were 4?

 

[sylvanthus]

Ouch. You're from Cali too, right? No love from 4 year programs? I thought most cali ones were 4?

Naww not from cali.

 

[fahimaz7]

Naww not from cali.

If it makes you feel better, we have 250/250 MD guys from my school that went 0/10 to Cali, OR, and WA.

Tough place to score any love. Apparently a 250 these days isn't enough to get it done to crack that state. Need higher scores, great letters, good CV, and a genuine reason for wanting to get out there. I heard someone say that a few of the schools only interview 20 from out east.

 

[strongboy2005]

Lots of DO's would love to end up in California but the odds are stacked against you. There is DEFINTELY still a prejudice against DO applicants. If you're lucky enough to crack the barrier have fun in Fresno or Bakersfield

Bakersfield maybe, but Fresno only has 1 DO resident in their EM program (out of 40 total residents)

 

[LoudBark]

John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, TX takes a lot of DO's.

It is a new program, in only its second year. About half of the current residents are DO's. In addition they have even taken a couple of Carib grads. The rest of the residents are MD.

In all likelihood, because it is a new program, it is not as competitive as some of the more established programs. In addition, there is a local DO school in Fort Worth that has a lot of its med students rotate there.

The Program Director of John Peter Smith is even a DO himself, so I highly doubt he would look down on "one of his own".

 

[bad virus]

Two things: I don't think you have to have 250/250 steps to get Cali interviews. I did not have a step 2 score and only a step 1 in that range and I am not from Californistan. My apps highlight was the community service and I got interviews from all the schools I applied to in that region except USC. On the interviews, it seemed like they were looking for students who were very active in community service.

In regards to the DO thing. Texas Tech is an old school established academic county (knife and gun club) hybrid and they had a bunch of DO/Caribbean grads that all seemed fun and strong. I think a lot of programs still subscribe to the stuck up MD > DO/IMG mentality.

I don't know why, but my school is a Countiversity program, and they only have one DO. I will ask the PD why this is. My guess is that we just don't get many DO/IMG applicants, but I could be wrong.

Basically, despite the discrimination, there are still strong EM programs out there that have a bunch of DO/IMG residents like Texas Tech in El Paso.

Truth be told, I didn't even know what DO was before I started medical school. Granted, I only applied to one school and didn't shop around, so I was quiet ignorant in that regard.

 

[Vano]

USF-Tampa usually has 2-3 DOs per class

 

[fergustsi]

As a JPS resident, I wanted to add to this (and maybe be a little defensive)
We take a lot of DOs and have taken two IMGs (both from England if that makes a difference to you) in our first two classes.
Our program does not discriminate, we interview the best applicants regardless of degree.
We do have a local DO school (TCOM) and all interested parties rotate with us and we usually end up matching with a few of these locals each year.
As to competitiveness, we have yet to go past mid thirties in our rank list both years to fill a class of 12 (n=2).
Also, two interns last year (both DOs) scored and 85 % (98th percentile) and 86 %(99th percentile) on their inservice (the higher being #20 highest score in the nation). Our intern avg was 76% which is the avg nationwide for a pgy2.

John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth, TX takes a lot of DO's.

It is a new program, in only its second year. About half of the current residents are DO's. In addition they have even taken a couple of Carib grads. The rest of the residents are MD.

In all likelihood, because it is a new program, it is not as competitive as some of the more established programs. In addition, there is a local DO school in Fort Worth that has a lot of its med students rotate there.

The Program Director of John Peter Smith is even a DO himself, so I highly doubt he would look down on "one of his own".

 

[winkleweizen]

As a JPS resident, I wanted to add to this (and maybe be a little defensive)
We take a lot of DOs and have taken two IMGs (both from England if that makes a difference to you) in our first two classes.
Our program does not discriminate, we interview the best applicants regardless of degree.
We do have a local DO school (TCOM) and all interested parties rotate with us and we usually end up matching with a few of these locals each year.
As to competitiveness, we have yet to go past mid thirties in our rank list both years to fill a class of 12 (n=2).
Also, two interns last year (both DOs) scored and 85 % (98th percentile) and 86 %(99th percentile) on their inservice (the higher being #20 highest score in the nation). Our intern avg was 76% which is the avg nationwide for a pgy2.

They rank ppls inservice scores?

 

[woeiru]

They rank ppls inservice scores?

I was told by a resident during this whole process that inservice scores play a part in fellowship applications. No idea if this is actually true or not though.

 

[alphaholic06]

As a JPS resident, I wanted to add to this (and maybe be a little defensive)
We take a lot of DOs and have taken two IMGs (both from England if that makes a difference to you) in our first two classes.
Our program does not discriminate, we interview the best applicants regardless of degree.
We do have a local DO school (TCOM) and all interested parties rotate with us and we usually end up matching with a few of these locals each year.
As to competitiveness, we have yet to go past mid thirties in our rank list both years to fill a class of 12 (n=2).
Also, two interns last year (both DOs) scored and 85 % (98th percentile) and 86 %(99th percentile) on their inservice (the higher being #20 highest score in the nation). Our intern avg was 76% which is the avg nationwide for a pgy2.

86% seems like a pretty low score to be 20th highest score in the country.

 

[Hamhock]

Fact - it's soo much harder for DO's to match into allopathic EM programs.

'It's soo much harder for MD's to match into osteopathic EM programs.'

 

[Hamhock]

. It's really sad that numerous programs out there really don't consider MD and DO applicants equal.

Here's a list of some of those programs:


Botsford General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Charleston Area Medical Center

Frankford Hospitals - Emergency Medicine Residency

Garden City Hospital Osteo - Emergency Medicine Residency

Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Emergency Medicine Residency

Horizon HS/Henry Ford HS(Bi-County Hosp) - Emergency Medicine Residency

Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medicine Residency

Memorial Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Metropolitan Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Michigan St U/Col of Osteo Med - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mount Clemens General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mt Sinai Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

MWU/CCOM/St James Hosp & Health Centers - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/New York United Hospital Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/Newark Beth Israel MC/St. Barnabas HS - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/St Barnabas Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Oakwood Southshore Medical Center (Emergency Medicine Residency)

OSUCOM/Southwest Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hosp Stark Cnty - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hospital North - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/St John West Shore Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

 

[b-real]

Here's a list of some of those programs:


Botsford General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Charleston Area Medical Center

Frankford Hospitals - Emergency Medicine Residency

Garden City Hospital Osteo - Emergency Medicine Residency

Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Emergency Medicine Residency

Horizon HS/Henry Ford HS(Bi-County Hosp) - Emergency Medicine Residency

Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medicine Residency

Memorial Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Metropolitan Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Michigan St U/Col of Osteo Med - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mount Clemens General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mt Sinai Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

MWU/CCOM/St James Hosp & Health Centers - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/New York United Hospital Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/Newark Beth Israel MC/St. Barnabas HS - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/St Barnabas Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Oakwood Southshore Medical Center (Emergency Medicine Residency)

OSUCOM/Southwest Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hosp Stark Cnty - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hospital North - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/St John West Shore Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

Checkmate.

 

[24IdaFire]

Here's a list of some of those programs:


Botsford General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Charleston Area Medical Center

Frankford Hospitals - Emergency Medicine Residency

Garden City Hospital Osteo - Emergency Medicine Residency

Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Emergency Medicine Residency

Horizon HS/Henry Ford HS(Bi-County Hosp) - Emergency Medicine Residency

Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medicine Residency

Memorial Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Metropolitan Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Michigan St U/Col of Osteo Med - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mount Clemens General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mt Sinai Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

MWU/CCOM/St James Hosp & Health Centers - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/New York United Hospital Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/Newark Beth Israel MC/St. Barnabas HS - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/St Barnabas Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Oakwood Southshore Medical Center (Emergency Medicine Residency)

OSUCOM/Southwest Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hosp Stark Cnty - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hospital North - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/St John West Shore Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

Not for long.

 

[Akail]

Here's a list of some of those programs:


Botsford General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Charleston Area Medical Center

Frankford Hospitals - Emergency Medicine Residency

Garden City Hospital Osteo - Emergency Medicine Residency

Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Emergency Medicine Residency

Horizon HS/Henry Ford HS(Bi-County Hosp) - Emergency Medicine Residency

Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medicine Residency

Memorial Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Metropolitan Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Michigan St U/Col of Osteo Med - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mount Clemens General Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Mt Sinai Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

MWU/CCOM/St James Hosp & Health Centers - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/New York United Hospital Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/Newark Beth Israel MC/St. Barnabas HS - Emergency Medicine Residency

NYCOM/St Barnabas Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency

Oakwood Southshore Medical Center (Emergency Medicine Residency)

OSUCOM/Southwest Medical Center - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hosp Stark Cnty - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Doctors Hospital North - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

OUCOM/St John West Shore Hosp - Emergency Medicine Residency

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency

No offense to anyone but I don't really see any program on this list I'm dying to be at...

 

[LoudBark]

As a JPS resident, I wanted to add to this (and maybe be a little defensive)
We take a lot of DOs and have taken two IMGs (both from England if that makes a difference to you) in our first two classes.
Our program does not discriminate, we interview the best applicants regardless of degree.
We do have a local DO school (TCOM) and all interested parties rotate with us and we usually end up matching with a few of these locals each year.
As to competitiveness, we have yet to go past mid thirties in our rank list both years to fill a class of 12 (n=2).
Also, two interns last year (both DOs) scored and 85 % (98th percentile) and 86 %(99th percentile) on their inservice (the higher being #20 highest score in the nation). Our intern avg was 76% which is the avg nationwide for a pgy2.

It is a fallacy to equate the competitiveness of a program with how deep they go on their rank list.

There is a LOT of self selection that goes on where people apply.....and hence how a rank list is made out. For instance, a competitive American MD grad who has good USMLE is not likely to apply to JPS. Don't take it personally, but they are more likely going to apply to more competitive programs such as UTSW, that is a mere 15 miles away from JPS. The most competitive American MD applicant won't apply to a new program that just started a year and half ago and takes half their class with DO / FMG. If the most competitive applicants don't even apply to a program....due to self selection.....then obviously the rank list and how far it goes is affected by this.

Whether you like it or not (and please don't take this personally and get offended by it), a more accurate measure of the competitiveness of an allopathic program is the percent of American MD grads vs. DO / FMG. Your DO residents may score 99.9% on their inservice exam.....but this doesn't change this fact.

 

[DB2013EM]

It is a fallacy to equate the competitiveness of a program with how deep they go on their rank list.

There is a LOT of self selection that goes on where people apply.....and hence how a rank list is made out. For instance, a competitive American MD grad who has good USMLE is not likely to apply to JPS. Don't take it personally, but they are more likely going to apply to more competitive programs such as UTSW, that is a mere 15 miles away from JPS. The most competitive American MD applicant won't apply to a new program that just started a year and half ago and takes half their class with DO / FMG. If the most competitive applicants don't even apply to a program....due to self selection.....then obviously the rank list and how far it goes is affected by this.

Whether you like it or not (and please don't take this personally and get offended by it), a more accurate measure of the competitiveness of an allopathic program is the percent of American MD grads vs. DO / FMG. Your DO residents may score 99.9% on their inservice exam.....but this doesn't change this fact.

It is a complete fallacy to use DOs and "less competitive" as synonyms. Do I understand where you are coming from? Yes. Are you making a sweeping generalization right now? Yes, again. I'm not offended by it, because I agree that a LOT of DOs are not as bright as MD counterparts (maybe DO schools have lower standards? newer schools? less powerful clinical rotation sites? who knows?) but, I think you are completely wrong. Also, lumping IMGs and DOs together is horrible as well, as I agree there is a step off in competitiveness between MDs and DOs, I think the step off between DOs and IMGs is even bigger.

 

[sylvanthus]

It is a fallacy to equate the competitiveness of a program with how deep they go on their rank list.

There is a LOT of self selection that goes on where people apply.....and hence how a rank list is made out. For instance, a competitive American MD grad who has good USMLE is not likely to apply to JPS. Don't take it personally, but they are more likely going to apply to more competitive programs such as UTSW, that is a mere 15 miles away from JPS. The most competitive American MD applicant won't apply to a new program that just started a year and half ago and takes half their class with DO / FMG. If the most competitive applicants don't even apply to a program....due to self selection.....then obviously the rank list and how far it goes is affected by this.

Whether you like it or not (and please don't take this personally and get offended by it), a more accurate measure of the competitiveness of an allopathic program is the percent of American MD grads vs. DO / FMG. Your DO residents may score 99.9% on their inservice exam.....but this doesn't change this fact.

So if I end up at a competitive program, which I very well may, my mere presence decreases the overal competitiveness of the program? Im sorry that is complete and utter bunk.