RNs make more than pediatricians at Kaiser Permanente on an hourly basis

[womp]

According to Payscale and Glassdoor, RNs make $45.49 an hour at Kaiser Permanente, while pharmacists at Kaiser average $63.45 an hour. Both are unionized with collective bargaining and get 1.5x-2x pay for overtime.

Meanwhile pediatricians at Kaiser make a range of $98,633 - $170,429. Assuming an average salary of $140k and 60 hrs a week, the pediatrician will actually make less ($44.90) than an RN on an hourly basis. If the RN received 1.5x wages for 20 hours of overtime, then the pediatrician would need to make $167,000 to be as well off as the RN who works 60 hours a week.

Remember that the next time you pull an all-nighter to study for a shelf exam, or stay up for 30 hours on call. Is it any wonder why this country has a primary care shortage?

Perhaps it's time for doctors to unionize, especially since more and more of us will be forced to become employees anyway. Otherwise we'll be walked all over by the hospital administrators even as rising health care costs get blamed on the "greedy physicians."

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Kaiser_Permanente/Hourly_Rate
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Kai...IP2.htm?sort.sortType=BP&sort.ascending=false

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[patel2]

According to Payscale and Glassdoor, RNs make $45.49 an hour at Kaiser Permanente, while pharmacists at Kaiser average $63.45 an hour. Both are unionized with collective bargaining and get 1.5x-2x pay for overtime.

Meanwhile pediatricians at Kaiser make a range of $98,633 - $170,429 on Payscale. Assuming an average salary of $140k and 60 hrs a week, the pediatrician will actually make less ($44.90) than an RN on an hourly basis. If the RN received 1.5x wages for 20 hours of overtime, then the pediatrician would need to make $167,000 to be as well off as the RN who works 60 hours a week.

Remember that the next time you pull an all-nighter to study for a shelf exam, or stay up for 30 hours on call. Is it any wonder why this country has a primary care shortage?

Perhaps it's time for doctors to unionize, especially since more and more of us will be forced to become employees anyway. Otherwise we'll be walked all over by the hospital administrators even as rising health care costs get blamed on the "greedy physicians."

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Kaiser_Permanente/Hourly_Rate
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Kai...IP2.htm?sort.sortType=BP&sort.ascending=false

yikes...not as bad as the CRNAs who can make more money than your average pediatrician, FP, internist (primary care only), neurologist, psychiatrist etc. and can make 200-250K+ if they work anesthesiology like hours and not their typical cush 36-40 hour week. Nurses are far better at unionizing and finding shortcuts to practice medicine by lobbying politicians.

 

[xanthomondo]

Do you really think there are a lot of pediatricians working six 10 hour days per week consistently?

There's no doubt that nurses are generally overpaid, but it's not a job I'd ever want.

 

[FIREitUP]

1) Don't go into peds or IM
2) Don't work at Kaiser Permanente
3)??
4) Profit

 

[officedepot]

how do you know those pediatricians work 60 hrs per week? If they worked 40 hrs per week every week of the year they would make more (about $67/hr). They're salary is probably calculated based around that average work week of 40hrs. Also I am sure the ones with higher salaries probably work a little more and get more time off - another thing you didn't take into account. MDs have a salary and they get paid regardless. All they have to do is work as fast as possible and get done. They get the same check when they are on vacation.

RNs get paid by the hour only for the time they work. Furthermore companies HATE it when people try to get overtime. The people in charge will do all in their power to keep overtime from happening and try to find another RN to work who won't hit those hours. It probably isn't very hard by the way. I would also bet if an employee is getting too much overtime they would get a very stern talking to... And finally you have no idea how many hours/week on average and how many weeks per year a RN will work. My bet is that the total amount of money a RN brings in per year it is significanly less than the MD getting paid a salary.

Basically my point is that it isn't as bad as you make it sound.

 

[Bigz]

Do you really think there are a lot of pediatricians working six 10 hour days per week consistently?

There's no doubt that nurses are generally overpaid, but it's not a job I'd ever want.

Where does this statement comes from? Nurses are generally overpaid? How many nurses do you know and how much are they overpaid? My Wife is a Nurse and a damn good one. She started at $21.50 at a Major University hospital and is now making $25 at the VA. How is that overpaid for a four year bachelors degree? $50, 000 and is now considered overpaid for a four year college degree?

California and perhaps New York and other TOP ten cities do not represent the entire country. Come down down here to the Midwest once in while and find me the overpaid nurses.

 

[FIREitUP]

how do you know those pediatricians work 60 hrs per week? If they worked 40 hrs per week every week of the year they would make more (about $67/hr). They're salary is probably calculated based around that average work week of 40hrs. Also I am sure the ones with higher salaries probably work a little more and get more time off - another thing you didn't take into account. MDs have a salary and they get paid regardless. All they have to do is work as fast as possible and get done. They get the same check when they are on vacation.

RNs get paid by the hour only for the time they work. Furthermore companies HATE it when people try to get overtime. The people in charge will do all in their power to keep overtime from happening and try to find another RN to work who won't hit those hours. It probably isn't very hard by the way. I would also bet if an employee is getting too much overtime they would get a very stern talking to... And finally you have no idea how many hours/week on average and how many weeks per year a RN will work. My bet is that the total amount of money a RN brings in per year it is significanly less than the MD getting paid a salary.

Basically my point is that it isn't as bad as you make it sound.

This is very true, but I would venture to guess that Peds physicians tend to spend closer to 60 hrs a week as opposed to 40. Either way, they need to be paid more.

@Bigz: Yes it is considered overpaid for a bachelors degree and no experience.

 

[Bigz]

This is very true, but I would venture to guess that Peds physicians tend to spend closer to 60 hrs a week as opposed to 40. Either way, they need to be paid more.

@Bigz: Yes it is considered overpaid for a bachelors degree and no experience.

$21.50, $45,000 at entry level bachelors degree is not an overpayment. My four year degree in Management information systems got me an extra $15,000 entry level at a national wireless company.

Not referring to you in particular but I see a general superiority complex with up and coming physicians on these boards.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

According to Payscale and Glassdoor, RNs make $45.49 an hour at Kaiser Permanente, while pharmacists at Kaiser average $63.45 an hour. Both are unionized with collective bargaining and get 1.5x-2x pay for overtime.

Meanwhile pediatricians at Kaiser make a range of $98,633 - $170,429. Assuming an average salary of $140k and 60 hrs a week, the pediatrician will actually make less ($44.90) than an RN on an hourly basis. If the RN received 1.5x wages for 20 hours of overtime, then the pediatrician would need to make $167,000 to be as well off as the RN who works 60 hours a week.

Remember that the next time you pull an all-nighter to study for a shelf exam, or stay up for 30 hours on call. Is it any wonder why this country has a primary care shortage?

Perhaps it's time for doctors to unionize, especially since more and more of us will be forced to become employees anyway. Otherwise we'll be walked all over by the hospital administrators even as rising health care costs get blamed on the "greedy physicians."

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Kaiser_Permanente/Hourly_Rate
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Kai...IP2.htm?sort.sortType=BP&sort.ascending=false

More importantly, I read unionized as "un ionized" which made the post FAR harder to comprehend. Its late. Im tired. And a scientist...apparently

 

[Lokhtar]

Physicians cannot unionize.

 

[duswdav]

Where does this statement comes from? Nurses are generally overpaid? How many nurses do you know and how much are they overpaid? My Wife is a Nurse and a damn good one. She started at $21.50 at a Major University hospital and is now making $25 at the VA. How is that overpaid for a four year bachelors degree? $50, 000 and is now considered overpaid for a four year college degree?

California and perhaps New York and other TOP ten cities do not represent the entire country. Come down down here to the Midwest once in while and find me the overpaid nurses.

i thought that most places didnt pay nurses extra for the 4 year credential? its not like the extra 2 years makes them better nurses. it just preps them for graduate work/administration positions

 

[Narmerguy]

Physicians cannot unionize.

How have people not understood this yet?

And to the above, national hourly wage is between $20 and $36, with $19-$55 for overtime pay. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Hourly_Rate

Can't say if this is a good measure, whether this is overpaying, or what, but I think it's fair to say that most nurses aren't making $45 an hour but the $25 the dude's wife makes is also on the low side as well.

 

[browneyed girl]

how do you know those pediatricians work 60 hrs per week? If they worked 40 hrs per week every week of the year they would make more (about $67/hr). They're salary is probably calculated based around that average work week of 40hrs. Also I am sure the ones with higher salaries probably work a little more and get more time off - another thing you didn't take into account. MDs have a salary and they get paid regardless. All they have to do is work as fast as possible and get done. They get the same check when they are on vacation.

RNs get paid by the hour only for the time they work. Furthermore companies HATE it when people try to get overtime. The people in charge will do all in their power to keep overtime from happening and try to find another RN to work who won't hit those hours. It probably isn't very hard by the way. I would also bet if an employee is getting too much overtime they would get a very stern talking to... And finally you have no idea how many hours/week on average and how many weeks per year a RN will work. My bet is that the total amount of money a RN brings in per year it is significanly less than the MD getting paid a salary.

Basically my point is that it isn't as bad as you make it sound.

I like your reply because it is very accurate. I have been an RN and now an NP for Kaiser Permanente for over 7 years and get paid about $54 per hour (no overtime). If I get any overtime, I have to write a whole "essay" to explain why I had to work overtime. There's a lot to consider when making the statement of RNs being over-paid: nurse to patient ratio, and most importantly the nursing duties: changing diapers, trach care, enemas, etc....
I'm hoping to become a doctor (Family medicine) this app cycle. Practicing medicine is not about the money for me, it's about the changes you can make in patients and health care policies.

 

[Narmerguy]

how do you know those pediatricians work 60 hrs per week? If they worked 40 hrs per week every week of the year they would make more (about $67/hr). They're salary is probably calculated based around that average work week of 40hrs. Also I am sure the ones with higher salaries probably work a little more and get more time off - another thing you didn't take into account. MDs have a salary and they get paid regardless. All they have to do is work as fast as possible and get done. They get the same check when they are on vacation.

RNs get paid by the hour only for the time they work. Furthermore companies HATE it when people try to get overtime. The people in charge will do all in their power to keep overtime from happening and try to find another RN to work who won't hit those hours. It probably isn't very hard by the way. I would also bet if an employee is getting too much overtime they would get a very stern talking to... And finally you have no idea how many hours/week on average and how many weeks per year a RN will work. My bet is that the total amount of money a RN brings in per year it is significanly less than the MD getting paid a salary.

Basically my point is that it isn't as bad as you make it sound.

Full salaried doctors are actually not the norm.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

You're absolutely correct about nursing wages at kaiser. My aunt has been a nurse off and on at kaiser for 24 years. She is paid $53 per hour. She has the opportunity to make time and a half or double time on holidays or if she has worked too many consecutive days.

Kaiser wage is anything but typical

On another note, have you ever had to wipe ass or give a patient soap suds? I think not

 

[hawkeye pierce]

Ok where are you seeing the average pay rate for pediatricians at kaiser? Also, Payscale is notoriously off base on salaries.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

And Hey as a internal med doc you would make 360k.
http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/....ascending=false&filter.jobTitleFTS=physician

 

[Jamers]

You're absolutely correct about nursing wages at kaiser. My aunt has been a nurse off and on at kaiser for 24 years. She is paid $53 per hour. She has the opportunity to make time and a half or double time on holidays or if she has worked too many consecutive days.

Kaiser wage is anything but typical

On another note, have you ever had to wipe ass or give a patient soap suds? I think not

Yes, I have. Its not fun but having worked 80 hours a week, done 30 hour calls and stopped nurses from killing my patients, I would gladly go back to doing that.

 

[xanthomondo]

Where does this statement comes from? Nurses are generally overpaid? How many nurses do you know and how much are they overpaid? My Wife is a Nurse and a damn good one. She started at $21.50 at a Major University hospital and is now making $25 at the VA. How is that overpaid for a four year bachelors degree? $50, 000 and is now considered overpaid for a four year college degree?

California and perhaps New York and other TOP ten cities do not represent the entire country. Come down down here to the Midwest once in while and find me the overpaid nurses.

As duswdav pointed out, your wife would be starting at $21.50/hour with a 2 year degree. Also compared to what I've seen with my friends, $21.50/hour is extremely low for being a nurse.

The ones I know (with 1-2 years experience) are making $75,000/year. This is while working three 12 hour shifts per week (and getting credit for a full time 40 hours!). Can you imagine having a 4 day weekend every single weekend?

Look at browneyedgirl, how many professions/fields do you know that you'd clear a 6 figure annual salary after seven years work? That's absolutely absurd.

 

[womp]

how do you know those pediatricians work 60 hrs per week? If they worked 40 hrs per week every week of the year they would make more (about $67/hr).

These are regular RNs we are talking about, not NPs. The actual Kaiser RN salary is closer to $54 an hour. So 7-9 more years of intense schooling (plus debt) and residency training at 80 hours a week amounts to about $15/hr more in salary and nearly all the liability for the pediatrician even when assuming a 40 hour work week for the doctor. Do you think that's equitable? And the thing is, there's no way that pediatrician worked just 40 hours a week.

Even I-Bankers with an Ivy League undergrad degree must bust ass 70 hours a week to make $100k ($60k base, $40k bonus).

And let's all not forget what the selection criteria to becoming a physician is compared to a nurse.

The Kaiser model is also what most HMOs seek to imitate, and the kind of model Obamacare has in mind.

 

[womp]

On another note, have you ever had to wipe ass or give a patient soap suds? I think not

Nowadays, most of that is done by CNAs and LPNs I think, who make far less than an RN.

 

[mdeast]

Kaiser attendings are not working 60 hours/week, unless they're in a more intense subspecialty (i.e. NICU, PICU, etc.). The average pediatrician (especially general practice) is probably working from 8-5, 4 or 5 days a week. This is Kaiser, not an NE academic hospital.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

These are regular RNs we are talking about, not NPs. The actual Kaiser RN salary is closer to $54 an hour. So 7-9 more years of intense schooling (plus debt) and residency training at 80 hours a week amounts to about $15/hr more in salary and nearly all the liability for the pediatrician even when assuming a 40 hour work week for the doctor. Do you think that's equitable? And the thing is, there's no way that pediatrician worked just 40 hours a week.

Even I-Bankers with an Ivy League undergrad degree must bust ass 70 hours a week to make $100k ($60k base, $40k bonus).

And let's all not forget what the selection criteria to becoming a physician is compared to a nurse.

The Kaiser model is also what most HMOs seek to imitate, and the kind of model Obamacare has in mind.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNEsyP-SQuW5uzNPuLdF3-837Jf01g&cad=rja

This is what physicians typically make

You still make more than them. If you want to be a nurse so badly drop out of medical school and become one. Going to school for a long time is not a valid argument for others getting paid less.

Also doctors are not paid on an hourly basis if you use the word salary in your argument. You can't just work all the hours you want if you are getting paid hourly and overtime to boot so that is where your argument falls apart. Sure you might know one or two who can but the vast majority can't.

 

[browneyed girl]

Nowadays, most of that is done by CNAs and LPNs I think, who make far less than an RN.

Unfortunately most hospitals are only giving RNs a CNA or LPN to help out ONLY when the RN has more than the legal nurse to patient ratio. So YES most ass wiping is done by RNs even at Kaiser

 

[naus]

Physicians cannot unionize.

That's not really true. Employed physicians can unionize, if they're not on the board or considered part of management. Most physicians are simply too proud to unionize and feel a sense of professionalism that is incompatible with most union rules (strict hour rules, roles, shift work).

If current trends continue, more and more physicians will become directly employed and find that shift work is not too bad.

You still make more than them. If you want to be a nurse so badly drop out of medical school and become one. Going to school for a long time is not a valid argument for others getting paid less.

Only if you don't care about wanting to have the very best people going into medical school. Doctors and nurses are in the same industry. We're not comparing doctors with bankers or lawyer. Ultimately doctors and nurses are paid by the same Medicare and same health insurance premiums.

 

[cbrons]

1) Don't go into peds or IM
2) Don't work at Kaiser Permanente
3)??
4) Profit

Lol is this a new meme?

 

[D elegans]

1) Don't go into peds or IM
2) Don't work at Kaiser Permanente
3)??
4) Profit

Gotta love South Park

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Only if you don't care about wanting to have the very best people going into medical school. Doctors and nurses are in the same industry. We're not comparing doctors with bankers or lawyer. Ultimately doctors and nurses are paid by the same Medicare and same health insurance premiums.

This is the same bs argument everyone makes. But no one has any substance to it. There are plenty of people who want to go to medical school define the "best" you mean the people who go into derm, optho and ortho surgery? These fields won't be hurting for applicants. Osteopathic doctors have lower stats yet are of the same quality as allopathic physicians. Also there are tons of IMG and FMG doctors to import as well as plenty of US medical students who still find the path to being a doctor attractive. SDN does not represent most medstudents

 

[Bigz]

As duswdav pointed out, your wife would be starting at $21.50/hour with a 2 year degree. Also compared to what I've seen with my friends, $21.50/hour is extremely low for being a nurse.

The ones I know (with 1-2 years experience) are making $75,000/year. This is while working three 12 hour shifts per week (and getting credit for a full time 40 hours!). Can you imagine having a 4 day weekend every single weekend?

Look at browneyedgirl, how many professions/fields do you know that you'd clear a 6 figure annual salary after seven years work? That's absolutely absurd.

'


No it was $21.50 with a BSN not a two year degree. and No she is NOT making $75, 000 a year after three years experience She is making $50,000. At the VA they work 6 -12 hour shifts and an 8 hr every two week pay period for 80 hrs so its not 36 for 40.
When she Was at the a major university hospital it was 72 hours per pay period and that is not 36=40 by my calculation.

You can take kaiser and the few HMO's that are in big cities and equate it to the whole nursing industry nation wide or you can actually look at nursing pay nation wide and realize it is not what you think it is.

Get off the nurses back. If you want to be a nurse its not too late.

 

[Dr Oops]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNEsyP-SQuW5uzNPuLdF3-837Jf01g&cad=rja

This is what physicians typically make

You still make more than them. If you want to be a nurse so badly drop out of medical school and become one. Going to school for a long time is not a valid argument for others getting paid less.

Also doctors are not paid on an hourly basis if you use the word salary in your argument. You can't just work all the hours you want if you are getting paid hourly and overtime to boot so that is where your argument falls apart. Sure you might know one or two who can but the vast majority can't.

Link isnt working for me.

Docs who are employed can be paid hourly.

Going to school is not a valid arugment for others getting paid less but it is an argument for them to get paid more.

Why is a Major league player paid more than a minor league player? They have skills (or in this case knowledge and training) the minor league player doesnt.

 

[todds]

According to Payscale and Glassdoor, RNs make $45.49 an hour at Kaiser Permanente, while pharmacists at Kaiser average $63.45 an hour. Both are unionized with collective bargaining and get 1.5x-2x pay for overtime.

Meanwhile pediatricians at Kaiser make a range of $98,633 - $170,429. Assuming an average salary of $140k and 60 hrs a week, the pediatrician will actually make less ($44.90) than an RN on an hourly basis. If the RN received 1.5x wages for 20 hours of overtime, then the pediatrician would need to make $167,000 to be as well off as the RN who works 60 hours a week.

Remember that the next time you pull an all-nighter to study for a shelf exam, or stay up for 30 hours on call. Is it any wonder why this country has a primary care shortage?

Perhaps it's time for doctors to unionize, especially since more and more of us will be forced to become employees anyway. Otherwise we'll be walked all over by the hospital administrators even as rising health care costs get blamed on the "greedy physicians."

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Kaiser_Permanente/Hourly_Rate
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Kai...IP2.htm?sort.sortType=BP&sort.ascending=false

As others have pointed out, the pediatrician is unlikely to be working 60 hours, but more likely 45 hours a week. And the average salary is probably 120-130 range a year. Assuming 120K/year and 45 hour work week with 4 weeks holiday/year, that comes out around $55/hour.

Still, thats really underpaid. Pediatricians unfortunately are really getting the short end of the stick due to reimbursement structure. In most countries, pediatrics is on of the most prestigious and competitive fields. Its sad that in the US these valuable physicians get paid the least.. A hospitalist on the low end is making 180K/year working on average probably the same hours which is like $82/hour.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Link isnt working for me.

Docs who are employed can be paid hourly.

Going to school is not a valid arugment for others getting paid less but it is an argument for them to get paid more.

Why is a Major league player paid more than a minor league player? They have skills (or in this case knowledge and training) the minor league player doesnt.

Go to this topic.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=817247&highlight=MGMA

Why should they get paid more than they already do? Because another worker gets paid more? Also the yearly salary of RNs if way lower than peds so I don't see what you are trying to get at.

Yes, I have. Its not fun but having worked 80 hours a week, done 30 hour calls and stopped nurses from killing my patients, I would gladly go back to doing that.

Then go ahead and go back to it.

 

[naus]

This is the same bs argument everyone makes. But no one has any substance to it. There are plenty of people who want to go to medical school define the "best" you mean the people who go into derm, optho and ortho surgery? These fields won't be hurting for applicants. Osteopathic doctors have lower stats yet are of the same quality as allopathic physicians. Also there are tons of IMG and FMG doctors to import as well as plenty of US medical students who still find the path to being a doctor attractive. SDN does not represent most medstudents

If doctors in the future only made primary care salaries after $200k in debt and 7 years of education, the majority of people who will be going into medicine are those who don't have another option, who see medicine as perhaps a better option than a dead-end $50k office job or retail sales at Eddie Bauer, i.e., the same pool as those applying to nursing school or NP school. That's going to do wonders for future medical advancements.

And your brilliant solution to this problem is to import more foreign doctors? I hope to god you're never in a position of power. This country is going down the toilet because of people like you who don't value rigorous education nor homegrown human capital and whose solution to everything is to outsource labor or import talent.

No matter what you like to believe, osteopathic doctors on the average are not the same quality as US MD physicians. The match lists nor the USMLE scores bear this out. It is because of Medicare that we don't differentiate quality of providers in our reimbursements. This is not a good thing and is partially responsible for the wide range of outcomes among providers even in the same patient pools. You know what other field lumps the good ones with the bad ones and has held down the salaries of the good ones for decades? Teaching. And just look at the state of our public schools today.

There's nothing BS about the argument that incentive and compensation matters in recruiting talent and maintaining quality, Brigade. You're just economically ignorant.

 

[todds]

If doctors in the future only made primary care salaries after $200k in debt and 7 years of education, the majority of people who will be going into medicine are those who don't have another option, who see medicine as perhaps a better option than a dead-end $50k office job or retail sales at Eddie Bauer, i.e., the same pool as those applying to nursing school or NP school. That's going to do wonders for future medical advancements.

And your brilliant solution to this problem is to import more foreign doctors? I hope to god you're never in a position of power. This country is going down the toilet because of people like you who don't value rigorous education nor homegrown human capital and whose solution to everything is to outsource labor or import talent.

No matter what you like to believe, osteopathic doctors on the average are not the same quality as US MD physicians. The match lists nor the USMLE scores bear this out. It is because of Medicare that we don't differentiate quality of providers in our reimbursements. This is not a good thing and is partially responsible for the wide range of outcomes among providers even in the same patient pools. You know what other field lumps the good ones with the bad ones and has held down the salaries of the good ones for decades? Teaching. And just look at the state of our public schools today.

There's nothing BS about the argument that incentive and compensation matters in recruiting talent and maintaining quality, Brigade. You're just economically ignorant.

I agree that you need SOME economic benefits to lure people to the field, but it will be a long time until pre-meds figure this out. The ones on SDN know more than most. There are many medical students currently who are completely ignorant of physician compensation. Thats scary and they are going to get a reality check sometime in the future.

Its hard to dismantle a myth of "once your a doctor you'll be rich!". Its been perpetuated for years and people will always give examples of "so and so doctor is loaded" and will never look at average and will never look at data. Even medical students refuse to actually look up data on this topic (or any other topic for that matter). Many people just rehash old myths.

This is why flocks of good students still go into law school - the myth that you'll be loaded once you are done.

So as long as the myth perpetuates, talent will continue apply and get into medical school and once they realize the truth - they will be stuck due to debt. This is exactly what has happened to law students, PhD students etc..

Having said that, there is some truth that DESPITE it being 7 years/200K debt/150K a year - that is really appealing to many still. Many people like the idea that they can have a stable job paying a good salary and be above average. I mean, for most what are the alternatives that they can do better?

Unless you go to a big name school, most people don't have a 100K job offers. In fact, in most fields, the pay is declining or stagnating. Medicine for many is one of the few paths that still and projects to provide steady income well above the mean.

For example, suppose when its all said in done you end up paying $500K a year in debt with accrued interest from residency and med school and covered for all your living expenses and tuition. And suppose you took 10 years to pay it off after residency. Lets take the $200K/year income you mentioned for example. Effectively, the person is getting $150K/year after med school and residency with no debt for the first 10 years. And effectively a pay raise to 200K/year when the debt is paid off. Taken from that point of view, some view that as a excellent career choice and makes complete economic sense. And because of this, there will still likely be a lot of talent going into this profession.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

If doctors in the future only made primary care salaries after $200k in debt and 7 years of education, the majority of people who will be going into medicine are those who don't have another option, who see medicine as perhaps a better option than a dead-end $50k office job or retail sales at Eddie Bauer, i.e., the same pool as those applying to nursing school or NP school. That's going to do wonders for future medical advancements.

And your brilliant solution to this problem is to import more foreign doctors? I hope to god you're never in a position of power. This country is going down the toilet because of people like you who don't value rigorous education nor homegrown human capital and whose solution to everything is to outsource labor or import talent.

No matter what you like to believe, osteopathic doctors on the average are not the same quality as US MD physicians. The match lists nor the USMLE scores bear this out. It is because of Medicare that we don't differentiate quality of providers in our reimbursements. This is not a good thing and is partially responsible for the wide range of outcomes among providers even in the same patient pools. You know what other field lumps the good ones with the bad ones and has held down the salaries of the good ones for decades? Teaching. And just look at the state of our public schools today.

There's nothing BS about the argument that incentive and compensation matters in recruiting talent and maintaining quality, Brigade. You're just economically ignorant.

No you are the one saying that there is a shortage of talented premeds and if salaries don't rise or stay below the 200k no one will want to do it because they will live in abject poverty. All because the owe a years worth or salary in loans?

I never said that we should import FMG/IMG and completely replace US doctors. I just said that the option is there. You argue that medical advancement would slow if doctors made 200k but you seem to be ignorant in the fact that medical advancement is primarily made by PhDs which mostly make below 100k.

Then you say these talented pre-meds would go else where. Where would all these "talented" pre-meds go? They would still have to compete with the very talented people in other fields. Also medical school and residency is what shapes doctors not college graduates who simply claim to be cream of the crop because they have a high GPA.

There is far more to being a doctor than performing well on tests. Just because a person is academically competent doesn't mean that they are clinically competent.

Your solution to the primary care physician shortage is that we need to either lower the pay of a U.S grown labor field (nursing) because another field goes to more schooling (medicine) thus since this field (nursing) is advancing in pay the other field (medicine) must advance even though the salary gap is still large between the two professions.

Sure allopathic grads get into more competitive specialties but the issue is Primary care doctors so your argument is moot. Also the advances in medicine such as medical technology are mostly carried out by physician scientists which make LESS than their colleagues. This topic is even talking about pediatricians which is considered primary care.

Teaching is bad for a whole nother reason.

I'm not economically ignorant the health industry is costing us a ton of money so something needs to be done. This doesn't mean that doctors have to be paid less but things need to change.

You just seem to be delusional about the options a typically pre-med has.

Medicine has higher job security than most professions and the ability to move to practically anywhere. Also you get paid in residency which is technically the start of your career. US medical school isn't that hard to get in new osteopathic schools typically have a 24 MCAT average (LMU) and they also abide by grade replacement.

Count all the investment bankers then compare them to the number of physicians. Anesthesiology is not a competitive field to get into and you can make 300k.

EDIT: also primary care doctors have options such as working in undersevered communities to get their loans paid back. While they are making money.

 

[mvenus929]

Can you imagine having a 4 day weekend every single weekend?

I have never known a *hospital based* nurse who gets every single weekend off. My dad has always had to work at least one weekend a month, the nurses at my old hospital had to work every other weekend (roughly) just like the rest of us, and the one nurse I know at my current hospital (I'm not on the wards yet) works weird shifts as well.

 

[Lokhtar]

If doctors in the future only made primary care salaries after $200k in debt and 7 years of education, the majority of people who will be going into medicine are those who don't have another option, who see medicine as perhaps a better option than a dead-end $50k office job or retail sales at Eddie Bauer, i.e., the same pool as those applying to nursing school or NP school. That's going to do wonders for future medical advancements.
.

Yes you are right, no one will want to be doctors except people who can't do anything else. This is why it's so easy to get into a Canadian medical school.

Also, PhDs who make 30k-100k (post docs to professors) do most of the actual basic science research.

 

[45408]

@Bigz: Yes it is considered overpaid for a bachelors degree and no experience.

Based on who's standards? FIREitUP's?

On another note, have you ever had to wipe ass or give a patient soap suds? I think not

The aides do a lot more of that, and they get paid a lot less. So what's your point?

I have never known a *hospital based* nurse who gets every single weekend off. My dad has always had to work at least one weekend a month, the nurses at my old hospital had to work every other weekend (roughly) just like the rest of us, and the one nurse I know at my current hospital (I'm not on the wards yet) works weird shifts as well.

Fine, your 4-day "weekend" is in the middle of the week. That's still pretty sweet. My wife used to get 3-4 days off in a row fairly often. I never get that many days off, and I'm lucky to get 2 in a row.

 

[officedepot]

Full salaried doctors are actually not the norm.

yeah but that's the way it is at Kaiser. That's their whole point of trying to lower costs and get better outcomes.

RNs work 40hrs per week. Any more is an issue with their employer - see another post here.

And let's be honest, the work a RN has to do pretty much sucks and they still don't get paid over a yearly basis all that much. If nurses were so rich people wouldn't want to be a doctor - hell I wouldn't. Being a RN is like be a janitor in a sense - follow orders, chart stuff, and clean stuff up. The peds MD in this case can see patients in the clinic for maybe 5 hours and round on his/her patients in the hospital for a couple hours and then call it day. RNs in the hospital must sit there all day and answer calls from their annoying patients about puke, getting water, getting food, going to the bathroom, etc and then they have to go at a set time to take vitals, give meds, transport patients, etc. On top of that they have to clock in (which sucks) and report at a certain time or they'll get in big trouble. MDs don't have to do that crap.

 

[Frozen]

yeah but that's the way it is at Kaiser. That's their whole point of trying to lower costs and get better outcomes.

RNs work 40... Being a RN is like be a janitor in a sense - follow orders, chart stuff, and clean stuff up. The peds MD in this case can see patients in the clinic for maybe 5 hours and ... have to clock in (which sucks) and report at a certain time or they'll get in big trouble. MDs don't have to do that crap.

I think the fundamental argument going on here is: how SHOULD we compensate professions?
Either based on the knowledge and skill set (Dr.s make more) or
by who has the most crappy job (CNA's make more)
Or some other system.

Either way RN should probably be in the middle.

 

[Bigz]

yeah but that's the way it is at Kaiser. That's their whole point of trying to lower costs and get better outcomes.

RNs work 40hrs per week. Any more is an issue with their employer - see another post here.

And let's be honest, the work a RN has to do pretty much sucks and they still don't get paid over a yearly basis all that much. If nurses were so rich people wouldn't want to be a doctor - hell I wouldn't. Being a RN is like be a janitor in a sense - follow orders, chart stuff, and clean stuff up. The peds MD in this case can see patients in the clinic for maybe 5 hours and round on his/her patients in the hospital for a couple hours and then call it day. RNs in the hospital must sit there all day and answer calls from their annoying patients about puke, getting water, getting food, going to the bathroom, etc and then they have to go at a set time to take vitals, give meds, transport patients, etc. On top of that they have to clock in (which sucks) and report at a certain time or they'll get in big trouble. MDs don't have to do that crap.

Obviously you have very little knowledge of what an RN does or what they consider to be the most important aspect of their job. Following doctors orders is actually very little of what an Rn does. Providing compassionate care, especially after the physician daily 15 minute visit and family members writing to tell you how well you took care of their mom or grandma now that is what RN's. Nothing against janitors but RNs are not your Janitors, they will be your colleagues working together for the betterment for THE patient.

 

[dienekes88]

Obviously you have very little knowledge of what an RN does or what they consider to be the most important aspect of their job. Following doctors orders is actually very little of what an Rn does. Providing compassionate care, especially after the physician daily 15 minute visit and family members writing to tell you how well you took care of their mom or grandma now that is what RN's. Nothing against janitors but RNs are not your Janitors, they will be your colleagues working together for the betterment for THE patient.

That poster didn't say they were his janitor.

It might have been a bad choice of words, but you read it incorrectly.

 

[ccmonopolies]

I agree that you need SOME economic benefits to lure people to the field, but it will be a long time until pre-meds figure this out. The ones on SDN know more than most. There are many medical students currently who are completely ignorant of physician compensation. Thats scary and they are going to get a reality check sometime in the future.

Its hard to dismantle a myth of "once your a doctor you'll be rich!". Its been perpetuated for years and people will always give examples of "so and so doctor is loaded" and will never look at average and will never look at data. Even medical students refuse to actually look up data on this topic (or any other topic for that matter). Many people just rehash old myths.

This is why flocks of good students still go into law school - the myth that you'll be loaded once you are done.

So as long as the myth perpetuates, talent will continue apply and get into medical school and once they realize the truth - they will be stuck due to debt. This is exactly what has happened to law students, PhD students etc..

Having said that, there is some truth that DESPITE it being 7 years/200K debt/150K a year - that is really appealing to many still. Many people like the idea that they can have a stable job paying a good salary and be above average. I mean, for most what are the alternatives that they can do better?

Unless you go to a big name school, most people don't have a 100K job offers. In fact, in most fields, the pay is declining or stagnating. Medicine for many is one of the few paths that still and projects to provide steady income well above the mean.

For example, suppose when its all said in done you end up paying $500K a year in debt with accrued interest from residency and med school and covered for all your living expenses and tuition. And suppose you took 10 years to pay it off after residency. Lets take the $200K/year income you mentioned for example. Effectively, the person is getting $150K/year after med school and residency with no debt for the first 10 years. And effectively a pay raise to 200K/year when the debt is paid off. Taken from that point of view, some view that as a excellent career choice and makes complete economic sense. And because of this, there will still likely be a lot of talent going into this profession.

It's funny how people ALWAYS forget the tax man when they make calculations. 200K income is only 120K-140K after tax. Assuming an average of 130k, and following your logic, your person is getting 80K/year for ten years.

150k and 80k is very different.

just don't forget the taxes!

 

[Bigz]

That poster didn't say they were his janitor.

It might have been a bad choice of words, but you read it incorrectly.

That might be your interpretation but I read it correctly the first time. Thanks for the attempt to correct me.

 

[browneyed girl]

And let's be honest, the work a RN has to do pretty much sucks and they still don't get paid over a yearly basis all that much. If nurses were so rich people wouldn't want to be a doctor - hell I wouldn't. Being a RN is like be a janitor in a sense - follow orders, chart stuff, and clean stuff up. The peds MD in this case can see patients in the clinic for maybe 5 hours and round on his/her patients in the hospital for a couple hours and then call it day. RNs in the hospital must sit there all day and answer calls from their annoying patients about puke, getting water, getting food, going to the bathroom, etc and then they have to go at a set time to take vitals, give meds, transport patients, etc. On top of that they have to clock in (which sucks) and report at a certain time or they'll get in big trouble. MDs don't have to do that crap.

Your post is just rude. When you're old in a nursing home guess who's going to wipe your butt....a CNA or an RN...not an MD so choose your words wisely.

RN's are not "janitors", they do so much for patients to comfort them while the doctors are gone and report to the doctors what sometimes doctors fail to see....they are the residents "best friend" becuase they HELP them alot with procedures/protocols etc. Anyway, whatever the argument is about how much RNs, CNA, MDs make is irrelevant....what matters is that you do what you "LOVE" to do and not just doing it for the money or priviliges that come along with a "MD" title.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Like it or not. Health care is extremely hierarchical. Medical/legal takes it up another notch.

I'm not saying that there aren't an impressive array of skills in nursing. Or CNA'ing and so on. ****. A short order cook has got to know how to work the **** out of a grill. Everyone's job has it's challenges.

But in health care there's one MC and 50 hype men. Having spent my time--10 years--carrying amps, and screening groupies. I can say F it. Give me the mic. And know what F it means to be the "janitor." Which is what everyone else is the medical sphere is. Nobility of labor is swell. But the decisions are made, the plan is laid, and the money is paid....by and to physicians. The scraps are fought over underneath the table by everyone else.

 

[E Dubble]

Your post is just rude. When you're old in a nursing home guess who's going to wipe your butt....a CNA or an RN...not an MD so choose your words wisely.

RN's are not "janitors", they do so much for patients to comfort them while the doctors are gone and report to the doctors what sometimes doctors fail to see....they are the residents "best friend" becuase they HELP them alot with procedures/protocols etc. Anyway, whatever the argument is about how much RNs, CNA, MDs make is irrelevant....what matters is that you do what you "LOVE" to do and not just doing it for the money or priviliges that come along with a "MD" title.

I've been out of medical school five years. I don't know of many physicians that truly "LOVE" what they do. Actually, I can't really think of any. None. Seriously. I'm digging deep here. Some may like it well enough but "LOVE" is a strong word. An equally strong word is "HATE". I can think of some who will profess their hatred for medicine all too readily. Why is that?

 

[Perrotfish]

I've been out of medical school five years. I don't know of many physicians that truly "LOVE" what they do. Actually, I can't really think of any. None. Seriously. I'm digging deep here. Some may like it well enough but "LOVE" is a strong word. An equally strong word is "HATE". I can think of some who will profess their hatred for medicine all too readily. Why is that?

I know physicians that profess to love what they do. Peds people, in particular, seem to get very excited about their profession, though I've met happy people in every specialty (except EM, but I think EM docs feel that a world weary cynicism is a job requirement).

Also, for the OP, I'd be surprised if the Kaiser docs work 60 hours a week. I bet they're at 40, maybe even less.

 

[Bigz]

Like it or not. Health care is extremely hierarchical. Medical/legal takes it up another notch.

I'm not saying that there aren't an impressive array of skills in nursing. Or CNA'ing and so on. ****. A short order cook has got to know how to work the **** out of a grill. Everyone's job has it's challenges.

But in health care there's one MC and 50 hype men. Having spent my time--10 years--carrying amps, and screening groupies. I can say F it. Give me the mic. And know what F it means to be the "janitor." Which is what everyone else is the medical sphere is. Nobility of labor is swell. But the decisions are made, the plan is laid, and the money is paid....by and to physicians. The scraps are fought over underneath the table by everyone else.

WOW What an ignorant post. You only wish decisions were made by MD's. There are a lot of suits who've never seen the inside of a an anatomy lab that make more important decisions and more money than you will ever make as an MD.

 

[todds]

It's funny how people ALWAYS forget the tax man when they make calculations. 200K income is only 120K-140K after tax. Assuming an average of 130k, and following your logic, your person is getting 80K/year for ten years.

150k and 80k is very different.

just don't forget the taxes!

I'm not sure what state you are talking about, but most people don't pay THAT much in taxes. THere are deductibles and the taxable income is not going to be actually $200K. In most states, at the most itll be 50K in taxes. So lets say around 200K income - 50K for loans for 10 years and then = 150K before you take out taxes and then - around 50K in taxes = 100K. That can go very far as long as you are not living in San Fran or NYC.

But I think we are missing the point here....Suppose you had an education that was paid for by the government (like in West Europe) and had a stipend to live/eat in medical school. Then got your regular residency salary. So you are debt free but spent 8 years in training - what would be a good income then? $150K?

If thats the case, you would sill be getting taxed on that the same way on that 150K, but your perception of it would be a little different. My point is that I took the high end of TOTAL debt load that people may end up with (500K), took the lower end of salary of say a internist - and said this won't be too bad if our perception of it was a little different.

As an aside in this whole discussion regarding the Kaiser salary - one thing people don't mention is that physicians can work overtime too. Won't get paid time and half for it, but there is nothing stopping these Kaiser pediatricians from picking up some extra work to boost their salary

Many hospitalists have done this and are doing quite well