ROTC before Med School?

[JHUBlueJay]

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Hey guys, I'm currently a sophmore at Johns Hopkins University. My intention is to do army medicine for a few years. I was wondering if doing ROTC would be a good idea, or a terrible life decision for a pre-med.
I'm open to a wide range of specialties in order Plastics, Gen surg, Emergency Med, Ortho, Anesthesiology, Derm. If I didn't get one of those I would want to do a civilian residency.
So what i am considering if doing ROTC, but not HPSP. This way I only owe four years and should have more freedom to do residencies and such. right?

Basically what it comes down to, should i avoid ROTC or is it OK or even a good idea to do it?

 

[colbgw02]

Hey guys, I'm currently a sophmore at Johns Hopkins University. My intention is to do army medicine for a few years. I was wondering if doing ROTC would be a good idea, or a terrible life decision for a pre-med.
I'm open to a wide range of specialties in order Plastics, Gen surg, Emergency Med, Ortho, Anesthesiology, Derm. If I didn't get one of those I would want to do a civilian residency.
So what i am considering if doing ROTC, but not HPSP. This way I only owe four years and should have more freedom to do residencies and such. right?

Basically what it comes down to, should i avoid ROTC or is it OK or even a good idea to do it?

You're way off.

If you do ROTC, then you are required to apply for the Army match just like everyone else.

If anything, it puts you at a disadvantage. First of all, nowadays it's more difficult to get an educational delay. So you're less likely to even make it to medical school right out of college. Second of all, it's more difficult to set up away rotations as a non-HPSP/non-USUHS student military applicant. And many military programs consider doing an away rotation a sine qua non of matching.

 

[Perrotfish]

The obligations for ROTC and milimed are consecutive. Also if you're in ROTC you don't have a choice about doing civilian medical school, you're stuck with milimed. So after you graduate from medical school at I'm guessing 27 you're going to be obligated for a minimum of 3 years residency + 4 years ROTC back + 4 years HPSP payback, meaning you'll get out of the military at 38. My personal opinion? A sophomore in college should not be obligating himself to do something he has no experience with until he's 38 years old.

Also you're not guarenteed a civilian residency, even if you get one the military can make you take the military residency. I'm not even sure you're guarenteed to be allowed to attend medical school, they might reject your applicatoin and make you be an infantry officer. Also I don't know what you'd do if you're one of the many pre-meds (like myself) who didn't get in on the first try.

 

[colbgw02]

Also if you're in ROTC you don't have a choice about doing civilian medical school

This is not true.

Doing HPSP or going to USUHS might increase the likelihood that the Army will grant you an educational delay, but you can definitely do ROTC and then go to a civilian medical school without doing HPSP.

 

[Perrotfish]

Oops. I stand corrected.

 

[Mirror Form]

You're way off.

If you do ROTC, then you are required to apply for the Army match just like everyone else.

That's definitely true

Second of all, it's more difficult to set up away rotations as a non-HPSP/non-USUHS student military applicant. And many military programs consider doing an away rotation a sine qua non of matching.

Err, it's not at all hard to set up away rotations if you're ROTC. The only difference is that you only get reimbursed for one of them, instead of two of them (like the hpsp students)

EDIT: that's a small price to pay for getting to miss out on OBC

 

[JHUBlueJay]

Yes. A good friend of mine did ROTC and is now in U-Penn not doing the milimed program.
No one from my school has ever been denied educational deferment, so worst case at least I can say I was the first (haha)

Does doing ROTC have any benefits when it comes to the highly political process of being matched to the residency I want? Like does it count as having seniority or having time on?

Also do you think ROTC will weigh a factor for getting into medical school? I need all the help I can get 🙂

Thanks again to those who replied so quickly.

 

[Mirror Form]

Basically what it comes down to, should i avoid ROTC or is it OK or even a good idea to do it?

I would advise against doing ROTC for one major reason: you might not get into medical school on your first attempt. If that happens, you're MUCH better off being a civilian who can do research for a year and reapply. If you're doing ROTC, you'll be active duty instead and will have very little freedom over your future plans.

 

[Mirror Form]

Does doing ROTC have any benefits when it comes to the highly political process of being matched to the residency I want? Like does it count as having seniority or having time on?

it will help your time in med school count toward your future payscale (but only if you don't do HPSP or USUHS), but it definitely won't give you any advantage when applying to residencies.

Also do you think ROTC will weigh a factor for getting into medical school? I need all the help I can get 🙂

It didn't back in my day, but that was before 9/11. It may help these days. Although, it can also hurt by using up lots of your free time during undergrad that could be spent studying, volunteering in medical areas, or doing research. I remember a couple rotc guys at my undergrad were complaining b/c they had to go on a full weekend training exercise (zero free time, very little sleep) the weekend before the MCAT.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Hey guys, I'm currently a sophmore at Johns Hopkins University. My intention is to do army medicine for a few years. I was wondering if doing ROTC would be a good idea, or a terrible life decision for a pre-med.
I'm open to a wide range of specialties in order Plastics, Gen surg, Emergency Med, Ortho, Anesthesiology, Derm. If I didn't get one of those I would want to do a civilian residency.
So what i am considering if doing ROTC, but not HPSP. This way I only owe four years and should have more freedom to do residencies and such. right?

Basically what it comes down to, should i avoid ROTC or is it OK or even a good idea to do it?

Bad idea (for the reasons above and one more). There is absolutely no guarantee that they will let you apply for med school after ROTC for undergrad. The purpose of a ROTC scholarship is to make warriors, not doctors, and only a certain number of ROTC folks are allowed to apply to med school.

 

[JHUBlueJay]

I'm quite sure I'll get a good flaming for this one...

But the underlying reason I want to do ROTC is because a bunch of my friends do it here and I see what they do and want to be a part of that lifestyle. I enjoy learning the tactics and the operational parts of it and want the pride and honor associated with it. I was brought up in a very military family.
I've always planned on doing military med, just not for my whole life as I expect at some point life (and a wife) will come around and I'll care about money a lot more than I do now.
At the same time I understand I can't let these desires for the military lifestyle right now screw up my lifelong goal of having an MD after my name.

So without hiding the question: Does ROTC really have that much of a potential to screw me over, or is even remotely beneficial to do it.

I apologize in advance for the youthful, immature, and uneducated subject matter you just read.

Thanks for taking the time as strangers to weigh in your life experience and point me in the right direction.

 

[colbgw02]

I'm quite sure I'll get a good flaming for this one...

But the underlying reason I want to do ROTC is because a bunch of my friends do it here and I see what they do and want to be a part of that lifestyle. I enjoy learning the tactics and the operational parts of it and want the pride and honor associated with it. I was brought up in a very military family.
I've always planned on doing military med, just not for my whole life as I expect at some point life (and a wife) will come around and I'll care about money a lot more than I do now.
At the same time I understand I can't let these desires for the military lifestyle right now screw up my lifelong goal of having an MD after my name.

So without hiding the question: Does ROTC really have that much of a potential to screw me over, or is even remotely beneficial to do it.

I apologize in advance for the youthful, immature, and uneducated subject matter you just read.

Thanks for taking the time as strangers to weigh in your life experience and point me in the right direction.

Well, I'm not going to go nuts over this, but I will tell you that it's not a very good idea at all.

I spent years of my life learning all that stuff for ROTC, knowing full well that I wanted to go to medical school. Well, I did go to medical school and now I'm an Army physician, and all of that small infantry tactics that I learned as a cadet means precisely squadoosh.

Meanwhile, there were probably several fellow students at my college that were also pre-med but not in ROTC who decided to do HPSP once they got to medical school. Those people got all of their weekends, didn't have to repeatedly have screwed up schedules to accomodate ROTC lab and class, and didn't have to sweat waiting to hear for an ED. And do you know where those people are now? They're in the exact same place at the exact same level as I am.

And being ROTC doesn't help you in the military match unless you actually spent some time on active duty before you went to medical school. It's not like everyone is like, wow, that guys was ROTC, he really knows his Army stuff. 95% of the people I work with have no idea that I know how to run a platoon STX, and if they do know, they don't give a crap. There are plenty of former USMA cadets and combat arms officers now in the medical corps that no one is going to be impressed by your ROTC experience.

Having done ROTC helps you for the first week, while you're at orientation, in that you know how to not be a total soup sandwich of an officer. But all the HPSP folks catch up pretty quickly.

The main reason that doing ROTC was good for me is because my undergraduate college cost about twice as much as my medical school. So, since I only had the Army pay for one of the two, I came out ahead by doing ROTC instead of HPSP. For most people, it's the opposite.

There are a few other little things, like I got to go to jump school, I get to miss out on going to MC OBC (which, IMHO, would be a complete waste of time for an ROTC commissioned LT anyway), and I get extra base pay since my four years of IRR time during medical school count for pay. Actually, I call the OBC thing even, since I had to endure that 5 weeks of asinine hell that was Advanced Camp. That whole joke of an experience makes OBC look like Club Med.

Remember that if you go to medical school after ROTC without HPSP, then you're unprotected. The Army can recall you at any time for any reason and make you go into any branch they want. How likely is that? Who knows. Back in my day, it was unheard of, but that was before people starting flying planes into buildings and we started invading other countries.

Overall, am I sorry I did ROTC? Nah, I made that choice when I was a 17 year old highschool senior and I've sort of made my peace with it. Besides, doing ROTC probably gives me better perspective than I would have otherwise had. But if you know you want to go to medical school and you're thinking of joining ROTC because it seems cool, then I'd say that's not very smart.

 

[Perrotfish]

But the underlying reason I want to do ROTC is because a bunch of my friends do it here and I see what they do and want to be a part of that lifestyle. I enjoy learning the tactics and the operational parts of it and want the pride and honor associated with it. I was brought up in a very military family.

Not sure of this, but I think that generally don't need to take the scholarship to be part of most college ROTC programs: I remember a few people commissioning via this route who didn't merit the scholarship. Also if you don't take the scholarship there's no obligation, so if you need a year off or to help shore up your app after undergrad you don't owe anyone anything. This is generally something done by people at lower ranked colleges who can't get the scholarship, but given your reasons (wanting to wait until medical school to officially sign up) I think the program commanding officer would probably let you drill without a scholarship as well.

Might not be the policy at Hopkins, or I might be wrong entirely, but it can't hurt to ask.

I apologize in advance for the youthful, immature, and uneducated subject matter you just read.

Immature is making decisions without consider their consequences. Nothing you've written meets that criteria.

 

[colbgw02]

Not sure of this, but I think that generally don't need to take the scholarship to be part of most college ROTC programs

This is half true, at least for the Army. I can't speak for NROTC or AFROTC, but I would assume that the same rules apply.

You can participate in the basic course (freshman and sophomore years) of ROTC without an obligation, but once you enroll in the junior year curriculum - regardless of whether or not you're on scholarship - then you are on the hook.

 

[TX_NFS]

I'm not sure if it applies much here, but I'll throw in my little anecdote.

I decided to take some Naval Science courses (which were located at the local NROTC unit and what they took as well), but did not join the NROTC itself (scared of commitment, I know ). I think there was at least one other non-ROTC person in the classes I took (Naval Orientation, then Seapower & Maritime Affairs), so I didn't feel all that odd. Of course, this was all pretty much classroom instruction, so you don't really get a feel for what goes on outside of it.

I wanted to learn more about the Navy, but also didn't want to overload myself with other things in addition to 18+ hours of classes.

 

[csugals]

1. ROTC was a very worthwhile experience while I was in college, but I had no idea I wanted to go to med school when I signed up for ROTC. I enjoyed the financial freedom it allowed me. I enjoyed PLAYING GI JOE. It did cause me to miss out on other opportunities, such as those mentioned by earlier posts, but I also gained alot through the discipline and hard work that (some) ROTC programs demand.

2. Hopkins is expensive, as was my undergrad. But paying for med school has been 3x the expense that I would have racked up if I had taken a university scholarship/worked through undergrad, and then done HPSP. I am presently $250K in debt (all from med school) with a 4+ yr military obligation after residency.

3. During med school my only military obligation has been to fill out an edu delay form once/year. This past year I was able to dust off my uniform and do two (2) ADT rotations with pay - yes it is possible. Everyone seemed confused when I told them I was not on an HPSP scholarship.

4. Match results came in wed. With board scores/grades/research/letters of rec (not to mention dashingly good looks and super grammar skills) very competitive for my chosen specialty, I did not match, I was not offered deferment, I was given a transitional spot. SO...

5. Don't do what you might regret, don't regret what you don't do.

6. It seems like I might have broken both of those rules.

Cheers

 

[IgD]

1. ROTC was a very worthwhile experience while I was in college, but I had no idea I wanted to go to med school when I signed up for ROTC. I enjoyed the financial freedom it allowed me. I enjoyed PLAYING GI JOE. It did cause me to miss out on other opportunities, such as those mentioned by earlier posts, but I also gained alot through the discipline and hard work that (some) ROTC programs demand.

2. Hopkins is expensive, as was my undergrad. But paying for med school has been 3x the expense that I would have racked up if I had taken a university scholarship/worked through undergrad, and then done HPSP. I am presently $250K in debt (all from med school) with a 4+ yr military obligation after residency.

3. During med school my only military obligation has been to fill out an edu delay form once/year. This past year I was able to dust off my uniform and do two (2) ADT rotations with pay - yes it is possible. Everyone seemed confused when I told them I was not on an HPSP scholarship.

4. Match results came in wed. With board scores/grades/research/letters of rec (not to mention dashingly good looks and super grammar skills) very competitive for my chosen specialty, I did not match, I was not offered deferment, I was given a transitional spot. SO...

5. Don't do what you might regret, don't regret what you don't do.

6. It seems like I might have broken both of those rules.

Cheers

So you took an ROTC scholarship then paid for medical school out of your own pocket on an educational delay? What does your time in service look like? Do you get 4 years credit for college? I'm assuming med school counts as dead time.

When you show up for internship will you be O3 with 4 years or O3 with 0.

Do you have to serve in a medical capacity? Could you be a line officer for several years and fulfill your obligation that way?

 

[colbgw02]

So you took an ROTC scholarship then paid for medical school out of your own pocket on an educational delay? What does your time in service look like? Do you get 4 years credit for college? I'm assuming med school counts as dead time.

When you show up for internship will you be O3 with 4 years or O3 with 0.

Do you have to serve in a medical capacity? Could you be a line officer for several years and fulfill your obligation that way?

He's in the exact same boat that Mirror Form, myself, or any other ROTC/non-HPSP/non-USUHS student is in.

Yes, getting an educational delay straight out of ROTC in no way obligates you to do HPSP or to go to USUHS. I went to a private school for undergrad and a state school for medicine, so my overall debt is less than if I had done HPSP without ROTC. For csugals and most others, the opposite is true because medical school tends to be more expensive than undergrad. I pointed this out a week ago.

The service commitment is identical to someone who did 4-year HPSP only.

4 years credit for college? I don't know what you're asking, but you get 4 years counted toward pay for the time spent in IRR while in medical school. HPSP and even USUHS students don't get this time toward pay because they are considered to be in student status, which makes you non-deployable. The trade off is that the military could decide to activate you to any branch they want at any time during medical school, so you are unprotected. This used to be a non-issue, but now with OEF/OIF it's pretty risky. Again, I covered this a week ago.

When you come on active duty, you will be an O-3 with 4 years.

If you make it through medical school without being recalled, then you are required to enter the military match just as an HPSP student does. You could repay your time in a non-medical capacity, just as they military cannot force an HPSP recipient to practice medicine. The two are identical in this sense.

 

[MonkeyRalph]

If after reading all this, you still are in doubt, here's one more personal account to help you make your decision.

Personally, I did 2 years ROTC non-scholarship and did SMP at the same time in a medical support unit. Now I'm on the 4 year HPSP track. This adds up to owing the army 7 years post residency.

I loved my time in ROTC and wouldn't trade it for the world. It was so much fun, and I grew so much during that time. Also, I would say that my ROTC leadership training and platoon leader experience in a reserve med support unit definitely helped me get into medical school, considering I had almost no other medical/clinical experience.

However, I now owe the army 7 years AD and did not match at any of my 5 choices in the military match, instead I received a transitional year match in El Crappo TX. I would say I am a very competitive applicant for my chosen specialty, but the army just deals with a lot of numbers and politics. Please be wary of what you sign up for. Yes, ROTC is a great experience, but giving up your freedom to match where you want is a very steep price.

 

[sotash]

Hi there...
I'm currently a sophomore in the AFROTC program at the University of Texas at San Antonio. I'm in love with the program, the military, and my future job as a cardiothoracic surgeon.
You'd better believe I'll get there someday... BUT, AFROTC has been a headache beyond headaches in my journey to get there thus far, and there will no doubt be more obstacles I'll have to barrell through and cry about before I reach my destination.
I'm not sure what it's like for Army ROTC cadets, but for AFROTC we are required to take classes in leadership, which interfere with the standard pre-med curriculum. As a freshman and sophomore, the classes are 1 credit hour a piece, and as a junior and senior the classes count as 3 credit hours. In addition to an extra class, we are also required to take a leadership course that's 2 hours long once a week, which often interferes with classes one may need in order to graduate, or even as a pre-requisite.
Upon entering the program, students must also complete a form that maps out the entire curriculum the student plans to go through in the 4 years (or however many years the student has left when enrolling). As if this weren't enough pressure, there is a suspense date put on when that document needs to be turned in, and if it's not done by then, that cadet is watched quite carefully and reminded quite often until it IS done. Mind you, this is putting the whole experience in sugar-coated terms.
In between the sophomore and junior semesters the cadet is required to go through Field Training, which is almost like enlisted Basic Training, but officer-intensive. I plan on taking summer classes, myself, and so I'm having to get a waiver in order to go to a Field Training camp earlier in the summer, so I'll be able to attend those classes, and even that isn't 100% guaranteed.
In short, all of this is making it very difficult for me to fulfill all of my pre-med requisites. Not only do I need to take my MCAT before I've even completed all of the recommended preparatory coursework, but there is added pressure in that, on top of applying to medical schools and spending an exhorbitant amount of money, after all of that, I'm still subject to a medical slot board, which may or may not grant me permission to go to medical school straight out of my commission. That means I will either have to wait a designated amount of time before I will be allowed to attend medical school, wait until I retire from the military, or suck it up and accept I may never be an M.D.

If you have any more questions about this, if you haven't decided by now, feel free to contact me. It's not all bad, believe me.
I figure, since I've held a steady job since I was 16, am involved in ROTC (which will give me excellent recommendation letters), also involved in the service fraternity associated with ROTC (and an officer in that organization), have not dipped below a 2.5 thus far (and that can only continue to improve now that the adjustments have ceased for the most part), and am a well-rounded, articulate young woman (AND birracial, which puts me in minority status, woo!), I've got a lot going for me.
It's fishing for things like that that will get us pre-med students far. Perseverance is key. Whatever you decide, just make sure it's exactly what your heart desires, and not fueled by a paycheck.
** I failed to mention previously that military physicians/surgeons/dentists/etc. don't get paid civilian salary... it's noticeably less. **

Anyway, GOOD LUCK! and take care. 🙂

 

[Imaginationland]

Does anyone know the minimum GPA and MCAT score the ARMY accepts for an ROTC education delay? I am told I am pretty competitive, but It would help to know this information. --- I know the HPSP min requirements are a 3.5 GPA and 29 MCAT, so they might be similar?

 

[MonkeyRalph]

Does anyone know the minimum GPA and MCAT score the ARMY accepts for an ROTC education delay? I am told I am pretty competitive, but It would help to know this information. --- I know the HPSP min requirements are a 3.5 GPA and 29 MCAT, so they might be similar?

I'm not sure if there is a minimum. I think it is decided on a case by case basis depending on what your branch selections were, where you are on the national OML, and if you are accepted to medical school. If I remember correctly, it takes a little while for the board to make this decision, so it's probably not just a numbers only process.

 

[colbgw02]

The limiting step is typically acceptance to medical school. I know several people that were granted educational delays but did not make it into medical school. I have not heard of the opposite happening, but it certainly could.

 

[177584]

The limiting step is typically acceptance to medical school. I know several people that were granted educational delays but did not make it into medical school. I have not heard of the opposite happening, but it certainly could.

Ditto. Several of my classmates are Army ROTC folks they said with an acceptance letter the delay is cake.

 

[Daniel312]

Have you considered enlisting army reserves as 68W (medic) and being non-depoyable while in undergrad...
Then going ROTC to go to med school? This is what I"m considering... Seems like the 68W training would boost your chances at getting into med school... I think this is called the SMP Cadet program.
I know National Guard does something like this as well...

 

[MonkeyRalph]

Have you considered enlisting army reserves as 68W (medic) and being non-depoyable while in undergrad...
Then going ROTC to go to med school? This is what I"m considering... Seems like the 68W training would boost your chances at getting into med school... I think this is called the SMP Cadet program.
I know National Guard does something like this as well...

In order to do SMP, you have to be a contracted ROTC cadet. You cannot do ROTC during med school; it's far too time-consuming. If you enlisted in the Reserves or National Guard, unless you joined SMP, you would be deployable during undergrad. I was an SMP cadet in a Medical Support Unit (I was a Kilo platoon leader). Many of my platoon members were also in some of my science classes at school. Unfortunately when GWB started that war, all of them got sent away. I was the only person in my whole unit to graduate from college on time.

 

[Daniel312]

No, you misunderstood...
I meant doing ROTC while in undergrad... but enlisting in the guard first and doing your 68W drill while in school. This will pay for part of your undergrad without having to do that ROTC scholarship... That way you get drill pay, but when you graduate you can comission as an officer (hopefully with your acceptance to med school in hand.... and thus begins your med school...)

Not sure how this works exactly.... but, it sounds like a good plan. I just would NOT have the military pay for all of my med school simply because its too much of a time commitment... but if your enlisted guard you will probably get deployed during med school- which isn't good... but ya know. At least your time commitment for enlisted guard is ticking away while in your undergrad.

 

[Daniel312]

^^^^^

Maybe someone can add some clarity to what I said above. I have a recruiter on me trying to get me to enlist 68W....

 

[NavyFP]

^^^^^

Maybe someone can add some clarity to what I said above. I have a recruiter on me trying to get me to enlist 68W....

For those who wish to become doctors, enlisting in ANY service is a patently bad idea as a rule. There are a few minor categories of students for whom this statement does not hold, but very few.

Once you enlist, there are multiple opportunities for distraction from your ultimate objective. Considering the length of the pipeline. Avoid roadblocks.

 

[Mirror Form]

^^^^^

Maybe someone can add some clarity to what I said above. I have a recruiter on me trying to get me to enlist 68W....

I'm assuming this isn't an hpsp recruiter? Exactly, his JOB is to recruit as many people to enlist as possible. He doesn't know a god damned thing about medicine, and he sure as hell doesn't give a rat's a$$ about your career plans.

If you want to go into medicine, do that first. Once you're accepted into med school the military will be throwing scholarships at you. Whereas, if you enlist in the military first, your options for getting into medicine will be serverely hindered.

 

[alphagojo]

Also if you don't take the scholarship there's no obligation, so if you need a year off or to help shore up your app after undergrad you don't owe anyone anything.

Not entirely true (at least in Army). You cannot enter your MSIII year without signing a contract which obligates you for 3 years AD even without a scholarship. I have a buddy who is doing just that: doing ROTC without receiving a dime and owes 3 years active when he is done. On the other hand, you can do approximately an entire year (MS1/2) without any obligation whatsoever. So if ROTC is really an interest (and I agree with MonkeyRalph that I personally wouldn't give up ROTC), try it out for a few months obligation free and then make a better informed decision.