Saba University School of Medicine

[slick27]

I have previously attended medical school at Des Moines University for a year before being academically dismissed. I had a 2.0 gpa or 70 percent on all required course work. I took the mcat in 2009 with a 29O as my score. Would you think that I am still eligible to apply to Saba University School of Medicine and have a decent shot at acceptance?

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[ThoracicGuy]

Sure, but you have a slim to none chance of matching to a residency program...

 

[NewHorizons]

You've already matriculated into one school and was let go.

Brutally honest opinion inc

Your chance to be a doctor is over. It's time to move forward to other options.

 

[Skip Intro]

Haha. Great answers. Man, you guys are harsh!

I have previously attended medical school at Des Moines University for a year before being academically dismissed. I had a 2.0 gpa or 70 percent on all required course work. I took the mcat in 2009 with a 29O as my score. Would you think that I am still eligible to apply to Saba University School of Medicine and have a decent shot at acceptance?

This is the type of specific question that doesn't get Skip's standard cross-link answer.

I'm assuming that, when you say Des Moines University, you mean their osteopathic medicine program. Right?

If that's the case, then I think you have to ask yourself why you were dismissed. I mean, seriously address why - not just that you were "academically dismissed". There are no shortcuts to becoming a doctor. You have to sit through the classes. You have to learn the material (I sometimes tell people, at this point in my career, that I've forgotten more things than they've ever learned... but occasionally I still draw on that body of knowledge).

I don't specifically know if Saba will give you a second chance. They might. It would never hurt to apply. And, I wholeheartedly disagree with the "slim chance" of matching into residency. Each hurdle you successfully navigate during this journey is essentially a "reset" button. An even better analogy is that it's like climbing a mountain. You have to push to achieve each milestone, and you can't really rest, until you reach the summit. But with each every and greater height, you can look back and see how far and high you've climbed. You just have to be careful not to fall.

And what is the summit? For me, being board-certified in Anesthesiology and currently pulling over $400K/year.

Good luck however it works out.

-Skip

 

[Rippey]

Haha. Great answers. Man, you guys are harsh!



This is the type of specific question that doesn't get Skip's standard cross-link answer.

I'm assuming that, when you say Des Moines University, you mean their osteopathic medicine program. Right?

If that's the case, then I think you have to ask yourself why you were dismissed. I mean, seriously address why - not just that you were "academically dismissed". There are no shortcuts to becoming a doctor. You have to sit through the classes. You have to learn the material (I sometimes tell people, at this point in my career, that I've forgotten more things than they've ever learned... but occasionally I still draw on that body of knowledge).

I don't specifically know if Saba will give you a second chance. They might. It would never hurt to apply. And, I wholeheartedly disagree with the "slim chance" of matching into residency. Each hurdle you successfully navigate during this journey is essentially a "reset" button. An even better analogy is that it's like climbing a mountain. You have to push to achieve each milestone, and you can't really rest, until you reach the summit. But with each every and greater height, you can look back and see how far and high you've climbed. You just have to be careful not to fall.

And what is the summit? For me, being board-certified in Anesthesiology and currently pulling over $400K/year.

Good luck however it works out.

-Skip

So you basically brag about how much you make a year and then give false hopes to the OP who has literally ZERO chance of landing a residency. I mean seriously, this dude has a 2.0 GPA and was dismissed from a DO school.

 

[DoubleDoctorate]

Haha. Great answers. Man, you guys are harsh!



This is the type of specific question that doesn't get Skip's standard cross-link answer.

I'm assuming that, when you say Des Moines University, you mean their osteopathic medicine program. Right?

If that's the case, then I think you have to ask yourself why you were dismissed. I mean, seriously address why - not just that you were "academically dismissed". There are no shortcuts to becoming a doctor. You have to sit through the classes. You have to learn the material (I sometimes tell people, at this point in my career, that I've forgotten more things than they've ever learned... but occasionally I still draw on that body of knowledge).

I don't specifically know if Saba will give you a second chance. They might. It would never hurt to apply. And, I wholeheartedly disagree with the "slim chance" of matching into residency. Each hurdle you successfully navigate during this journey is essentially a "reset" button. An even better analogy is that it's like climbing a mountain. You have to push to achieve each milestone, and you can't really rest, until you reach the summit. But with each every and greater height, you can look back and see how far and high you've climbed. You just have to be careful not to fall.

And what is the summit? For me, being board-certified in Anesthesiology and currently pulling over $400K/year.

Good luck however it works out.

-Skip

These are the kind of responses we need around here. Honest, but hopeful. Not like the other responses that are posted around this site.

Sure, but you have a slim to none chance of matching to a residency program...

Also, I know practicing physicians in Canada from SABA, and in the United States. The top four medical schools in the Caribbean have match rates of 85% or higher. And I've seen their lists and worked their numbers. So unless they lied about their matches, it's about accurate.

ALSO, just because you go to a U.S. medical school doesn't mean you'll match. I know 3 students personally from this years match from NY that did not match to any program.

I agree with @Skip Intro . Maybe you got dismissed because you partied too much, or because you were side tracked with family or loved ones. Whatever the reason, evaluate it and make sure you are ready to come back! I have faith in that if you really want to be a physician than try your hardest and pray for the best knowing that it is a very difficult road.

 

[Skip Intro]

So you basically brag about how much you make a year...

Is it bragging if it's true?

... and then give false hopes to the OP who has literally ZERO chance of landing a residency.

False hopes? You haven't read many of my posts, Rippey.

And, if you think someone (this person or anyone else) who goes to Saba, passes all their milestones with aplomb, and then goes into the Match has "literally ZERO chance of landing a residency" (your hyperbolic words), you are grossly - grossly - misinformed. That, or just (perhaps innocently) ignorant of how the process actually works.

https://www.saba.edu/about-saba/our-graduates

-Skip

 

[DoubleDoctorate]

Is it bragging if it's true?



False hopes? You haven't read many of my posts, Rippey.

And, if you think someone (this person or anyone else) who goes to Saba, passes all their milestones with aplomb, and then goes into the Match has "literally ZERO chance of landing a residency" (your hyperbolic words), you are grossly - grossly - misinformed. That, or just (perhaps innocently) ignorant of how the process actually works.

https://www.saba.edu/about-saba/our-graduates

-Skip

If you had to pick one of the Caribbean schools, which would you pick?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

These are the kind of responses we need around here. Honest, but hopeful. Not like the other responses that are posted around this site.




Also, I know practicing physicians in Canada from SABA, and in the United States. The top four medical schools in the Caribbean have match rates of 85% or higher. And I've seen their lists and worked their numbers. So unless they lied about their matches, it's about accurate.

ALSO, just because you go to a U.S. medical school doesn't mean you'll match. I know 3 students personally from this years match from NY that did not match to any program.

I agree with @Skip Intro . Maybe you got dismissed because you partied too much, or because you were side tracked with family or loved ones. Whatever the reason, evaluate it and make sure you are ready to come back! I have faith in that if you really want to be a physician than try your hardest and pray for the best knowing that it is a very difficult road.

You are correct. People in US MD/DO schools sometimes don't match. The match rates are on the order of about 95%, though. For Caribbean students, the chances that you'll make it through all four-six years and then match approach something along the lines of 50-60%. If you have the chance to improve your application to make it to a US MD/DO school (or Canadian) rather than taking the quick path to the Caribbean, you'll be doing yourself a favor. People think they will save time by not waiting a year to improve their app. What they don't get is that often times the Caribbean grads don't finish in four years, so that makes a year irrelevant. Then, if you don't match and spend another year trying, you're behind.

 

[Skip Intro]

If you had to pick one of the Caribbean schools, which would you pick?

I don't recommend individual schools.

However, there are a handful of schools who have been well-established (> 15 year history) and have a track record of placing graduates into quality GME programs, where you can practice securing an independent license in all 50 states following completion of residency, where it is easy to secure FFEL loans, and where you have the highest chance of successful completion and navigation of this sometimes confusing and tangled regulatory cobweb called "becoming a doctor."

I've posted on this extensively in the past. Here's a good starting point:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/tracking-the-track-record.1105677/

-Skip

 

[DoubleDoctorate]

You are correct. People in US MD/DO schools sometimes don't match. The match rates are on the order of about 95%, though. For Caribbean students, the chances that you'll make it through all four-six years and then match approach something along the lines of 50-60%. If you have the chance to improve your application to make it to a US MD/DO school (or Canadian) rather than taking the quick path to the Caribbean, you'll be doing yourself a favor. People think they will save time by not waiting a year to improve their app. What they don't get is that often times the Caribbean grads don't finish in four years, so that makes a year irrelevant. Then, if you don't match and spend another year trying, you're behind.

I agree. However there are a certain set of schools in the islands whom (on average) graduate many residents on time. I just want to encourage many applicants who are having doubts, or for some reason cannot wait any longer that there are alternatives. That being said, if they think they can go their and play with their junk in their hands they're going to get T-boned with a quarter million in debt and a nice slap from the tax fairy.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I agree. However there are a certain set of schools in the islands whom (on average) graduate many residents on time. I just want to encourage many applicants who are having doubts, or for some reason cannot wait any longer that there are alternatives. That being said, if they think they can go their and play with their junk in their hands they're going to get T-boned with a quarter million in debt and a nice slap from the tax fairy.

You aren't even in medical school, so why do you want to encourage applicants about the benefits of the Caribbean schools? Why aren't YOU looking at US/Canadian schools instead of the Caribbean? That's the question before us.

 

[NewHorizons]

You aren't even in medical school, so why do you want to encourage applicants about the benefits of the Caribbean schools? Why aren't YOU looking at US/Canadian schools instead of the Caribbean? That's the question before us.

Based on his post history... a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA.

Honestly looking through his brief time here it just looks like he's trying project hope... by making posts (interviews, advocating Caribbean etc) trying to explain that there's a small glimmer of a chance that going to the Caribbean is the right choice, he is trying to affirm his own actions.

Not gonna judge his PharmD or credentials... but his encouragement is naive. Caribbean schools have a track record of problems for a reason.

I hope he can find success in whatever he does regardless.

 

[Skip Intro]

Caribbean schools have a track record of problems for a reason.

Please expand.

In the meantime, the numbers of residency placements this year from five of the better-attended schools:

Ross University - 830 (http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm)
St. George's University - 820 (http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html)
American University of Antigua - 228 (http://www.auamed.org/graduate-success/residency-placements/#residency-placement-2015
American University of the Caribbean - 200+ (http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-placement/2015-residency-placements.aspx)
Saba University - 127 (https://www.saba.edu/images/Forms/2015_Saba_Residency.pdf)

That's over 2,205 new doctors from just those five schools... just this year.

Problems? Yeah, you're gonna have to expand on that.

-Skip

 

[deleted480308]

I'm pretty harsh on recommending carribean schools because their attrition rates tend to stay hidden before you even look at the lower match rate but skip is correct....saying no chance isn't accurate. There is a chance.

But we're not talking about the odds of an avg student. We're talking about someone who already couldn't navigate it once. If op hasn't figured out what that is, and i mean truly and brutally discerned their deficiency, they are toast and won't even make it to the match...let alone past it.

Op, what was the deficiency and how will you fix it? (You don't have to share here but you better know the right answers before you stake $300k on it)

 

[slick27]

Do you think I will have to retake the mcat since it is from spring of 2009?

 

[bedevilled ben]

But we're not talking about the odds of an avg student. We're talking about someone who already couldn't navigate it once. If op hasn't figured out what that is, and i mean truly and brutally discerned their deficiency, they are toast and won't even make it to the match...let alone past it.

Op, what was the deficiency and how will you fix it? (You don't have to share here but you better know the right answers before you stake $300k on it)

This is the important bit of the equation. If the initial deficiency is corrected, then the chance of success increases dramatically. Identifying that initial deficiency requires a level of introspection and self-discipline that most people aren't willing to address, though. It's easier to just close your eyes and think "this time will be different!".

 

[DoubleDoctorate]

Based on his post history... a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA.

Honestly looking through his brief time here it just looks like he's trying project hope... by making posts (interviews, advocating Caribbean etc) trying to explain that there's a small glimmer of a chance that going to the Caribbean is the right choice, he is trying to affirm his own actions.

Not gonna judge his PharmD or credentials... but his encouragement is naive. Caribbean schools have a track record of problems for a reason.

I hope he can find success in whatever he does regardless.

I studied 12 days for that test. For man reasons, like exam dates, locations where the test was, and my own exam schedule for the pharmacy program, I couldn't get a decent time to study. However now I've had 2 months to study and I've reached 511 on a TPR full practice test yesterday.


To go back to the actual thread of OP, I think you should consider it. I mean the Caribbean is my last choice. I am trying to raise my mcat in hopes that the 3.2 won't look that bad, and hopefully in an ideal world they'll [USMD/DO] weigh my 1.5 years of clinical experiences and direct patient care as something positive.

 

[W19]

N=1. I know someone who was dismissed at Nova then went to ROSS, and now doing a Pulm/CC fellowship...

 

[W19]

These are the kind of responses we need around here. Honest, but hopeful. Not like the other responses that are posted around this site.

ALSO, just because you go to a U.S. medical school doesn't mean you'll match. I know 3 students personally from this years match from NY that did not match to any program.

Keep in mind that some US students that don't match are probably not realistic about their competitiveness for whatever specialties they were aiming for. I know a couple of cases at my school this year... If you graduate from a US school with no major red flags and you are not a weirdo, you should be able to match into one of the less competitive specialties... That what one PD told me; I hope he was not lying.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Keep in mind that some US students that don't match are probably not realistic about their competitiveness for whatever specialties they were aiming for. I know a couple of cases from my school this year... If you graduate from a US school with no major red flags and you are not a weirdo, you should be able to match into one of the less competitive specialties... That what one PD told me; I hope he was not lying.

He was not. Simply passing the Step and not physically assaulting your residency interviewer will more-or-less guarantee a US student a residency in FM or Psych, assuming you apply even remotely intelligently.

(...ahem I might be a little bitter about this process at the moment...)

 

[W19]

He was not. Simply passing the Step and not physically assaulting your residency interviewer will more-or-less guarantee a US student a residency in FM or Psych, assuming you apply even remotely intelligently.

(...ahem I might be a little bitter about this process at the moment...)

To be honest, I am not sure it's a fair system even if I am a US student... The reason we all have to take these boards is to evaluate our knowledge (so to speak). There should not be any favoritism IMO. As long as someone is a US citizen, school attended should not come into play whether US based schools or international.

 

[bedevilled ben]

To be honest, I am not sure it's a fair system even if I am a US student... The reason we all have to take these boards is to evaluate our knowledge (so to speak). There should not be any favoritism IMO. As long as someone is a US citizen, school attended should not come into play whether US based schools or international.

Absolutely. The whole point of the Step is to have an objective evaluation tool to gauge a student's medical knowledge, even when those students are coming from wildly different education systems or schools. The whole process in its current form is archaic, inefficient, and needlessly complicated.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

To be honest, I am not sure it's a fair system even if I am a US student... The reason we all have to take these boards is to evaluate our knowledge (so to speak). There should not be any favoritism IMO. As long as someone is a US citizen, school attended should not come into play whether US based schools or international.

Absolutely. The whole point of the Step is to have an objective evaluation tool to gauge a student's medical knowledge, even when those students are coming from wildly different education systems or schools. The whole process in its current form is archaic, inefficient, and needlessly complicated.

I'm going to disagree with these assessments.

Board scores are important, but they are only one measure of performance. I've had residents with outstanding board scores who were poor performers, and I've had residents with poor scores who were fantastic. Not all schools are created equal. Ivy league does not always equal "best". And we have had some residents from schools who clearly were not trained adequately -- which means that either the school has a problem, or they are not honest with their assessments. Either way, I scrutinize applicants from those schools more closely.

Just to be clear, this can be MD or DO. I do worry somewhat more about the DO schools -- many are very large, farm their students out to private clinics, and their MSPE's are not helpful at all. But some of my best residents have been DO's. So it's not black and white, and hence why we review applications closely.

 

[bedevilled ben]

I'm going to disagree with these assessments.
Board scores are important, but they are only one measure of performance. I've had residents with outstanding board scores who were poor performers, and I've had residents with poor scores who were fantastic. Not all schools are created equal. Ivy league does not always equal "best". And we have had some residents from schools who clearly were not trained adequately -- which means that either the school has a problem, or they are not honest with their assessments. Either way, I scrutinize applicants from those schools more closely.

My point was not that board scores should be the only metric to evaluate a student, but rather the way in which they are currently used runs countercurrent to their main strength, ie their relative objectivity. They are ostensibly a metric of pure medical knowledge and test-taking skills, not of being a good resident. My point, and ultimately my frustration with the Step scores, is that if they were in fact being used to objectively compare students from different schools, then the average Step score for an IMG resident should be approximately the same as a USMD/DO resident. At least from my perspective of an IMG currently applying for the match. It makes no logical sense to me that I need to have a 235 Step1 score to get an IM interview when a US student only needs a 215.

 

[gyngyn]

My point was not that board scores should be the only metric to evaluate a student, but rather the way in which they are currently used runs countercurrent to their main strength, ie their relative objectivity. They are ostensibly a metric of pure medical knowledge and test-taking skills, not of being a good resident. My point, and ultimately my frustration with the Step scores, is that if they were in fact being used to objectively compare students from different schools, then the average Step score for an IMG resident should be approximately the same as a USMD/DO resident. At least from my perspective of an IMG currently applying for the match. It makes no logical sense to me that I need to have a 235 Step1 score to get an IM interview when a US student only needs a 215.

How long did you get to study for step 1?

 

[bedevilled ben]

How long did you get to study for step 1?

Four weeks.

 

[gyngyn]

Four weeks.

You will be compared to many US candidates that got two weeks and whose curriculum is not designed (for better or worse) as a board prep.

 

[bedevilled ben]

You will be compared to many US candidates that got two weeks and whose curriculum is not designed (for better or worse) as a board prep.

I had written a long and detailed post in response, but I think I'm going to refrain from posting. I don't get the impression that you're interested in changing your mind and I'm not interested in highjacking another thread for another rehash of the particulars of Caribbean IMG residencies. If you would like to hear my response, which as an Adcom I really hope you are because I would very much like to hear your perspective on it, perhaps I will start a new thread.

I can't find a good collated data source or reliable survey to link directly, but if you google "average step 1 study time" you will find I think that 4-6 weeks is the current average study time for USMD students as well.

 

[gyngyn]

I had written a long and detailed post in response, but I think I'm going to refrain from posting. I don't get the impression that you're interested in changing your mind and I'm not interested in highjacking another thread for another rehash of the particulars of Caribbean IMG residencies. If you would like to hear my response, which as an Adcom I really hope you are because I would very much like to hear your perspective on it, perhaps I will start a new thread.

I can't find a good collated data source or reliable survey to link directly, but if you google "average step 1 study time" you will find I think that 4-6 weeks is the current average study time for USMD students as well.

I have been a faculty member at more than one medical school in California and have more than a passing knowledge of the amount of dedicated study time allotted to this milestone. I am sorry that you are in this position but hopefully you will have a strategy consistent with success.

 

[Skip Intro]

You will be compared to many US candidates that got two weeks and whose curriculum is not designed (for better or worse) as a board prep.

I can't find a good collated data source or reliable survey to link directly, but if you google "average step 1 study time" you will find I think that 4-6 weeks is the current average study time for USMD students as well.

I teach, as part of my ongoing professional responsibilities in my current job, U.S. medical students and residents. And, I'm going to have agree with bedevilled ben here. The U.S. medical school curriculum (including the "shelf" exams) is totally geared towards the USMLE, and most students get at least a month to study for and take Step 1.

-Skip

 

[W19]

@Skip Intro Most US schools don't use shelf exam for the first 2 year...

 

[laricb]

@Skip Intro Most US schools don't use shelf exam for the first 2 year...

neither do carib only yr 3

 

[gyngyn]

Four weeks.

In order to re-assess the time for study that I have been led to believe by previous grads, I spoke with someone currently attending a large school in the Caribbean regarding how much devoted study time he was allowed/taking for USMLE Step 1. He plans to study January though April. If he takes the exam by then he qualifies for some type of preferred track that allows for a longer period of time in a better location. He estimates that hundreds of the students who started in his class are not eligible to sit for the exam (including all his roommates). He said his school purchases UWorld for all students who make it to the point of being allowed to sit for the exam.
There may be LCME schools that allow as long as a month to study but I know of none that routinely allows 4 months.

I am sure that standards in LCME and Caribbean schools vary, but enough of us know Caribbean grads whose education has been very different from US comparators. You must not be surprised when we post how those differences color our opinion of the outcomes.

 

[Goro]

Mine does. They're quite good predictors of COMLEX performance.

@Skip Intro Most US schools don't use shelf exam for the first 2 year...

 

[MNate]

SABA MEDICAL SCHOOL IS THE WORST SCHOOL YOU CAN ATTEND. PERIOD. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY AT THIS PATHETIC JOKE OF AN INSTITUTION.

 

[Skip Intro]

@Skip Intro Most US schools don't use shelf exam for the first 2 year...

The subject exams are used at virtually all LCME-accredited medical schools in the United States and Canada, many osteopathic medical schools, and approximately 25 international schools in the Caribbean, Mexico, Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

Subject examinations are primarily designed for use as final examinations after courses, clerkships, or other units of instruction. Scores achieved on NBME subject examinations cannot be used by examinees for credit toward the examination requirements for medical licensure in the United States.

http://www.nbme.org/students/Subject-Exams/subexams.html

-Skip

 

[FutureMDiA]

SABA MEDICAL SCHOOL IS THE WORST SCHOOL YOU CAN ATTEND. PERIOD. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY AT THIS PATHETIC JOKE OF AN INSTITUTION.

Why?????