Saint Barnabas 2 tier Interview?

[kisses24599]

Ok so I am considering canceling my St Barnabas interview... They are doing this weird 2 tier interview thing this year. They have 2 dates for mass interviews then determine if they will invite you back for a second interview and only plan to rank the applicants they interview twice. My research tells me they are like a 3rd -4th tier program so I am wondering if it is worth the hassle. I mean I am on the east coast so its a 3 hour drive... no plane ticket or anything... what do you think? Any feedback on this program? Anybody actually planing to go?

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[amyl]

i am also wondering about this... i have to choose between this and ubuffalo...i was leaning toward ubuffalo but i don't anything about st. barnabas (except last year the ER program there took a guy that was a total tool which is not relevant to anesthesiology) and that this year they seem to have invited almost everyone to the first interview....i don't know of a single person who applied that was not invited to the first interview, and that includes some pretty mediocre candidates that i know of.... i don't think i am going to go....buffalo winters sound better i think....?

 

[Ferdie]

haha, you're in palm beach, fl, and you think buffalo winters sound OK? oh man...

 

[amyl]

grew up in chicago...only a transplanted floridian, like most. all in all buffalo sounds better than barnabas.

 

[kisses24599]

Well my mind is almost made up as well... i think St Barnabas is going to make my cancel list.

 

[numbmd]

Sorry the two interview system had you concerned.

I came up with it. See, we are a small program in size and have a tough time getting our name out there. It's very difficult when you don't have a big recognized University behind you. We have a two step process because very few people will rank you highly if they only go once to your program.
Actually I believe the number is less than 25 %.

We have a great program at St. Barnabas. I have lots of numbers to prove we have one of the best programs on the East coast.

We have a near 100% first time pass rate on the Written Boards, with an almost equally high pass rate on the Orals.

We recently were approved for a four year cycle by the acgme.

Our in-training exams results are also very high.

Surveys of our graduates reveal a virtual uniformly excellent evaluation of our program.

We offer a personal involvement with all our residents. I take a personal interest not only in their education but in how they are making it through the program. Our residents are happy here.

I graduated from UMDNJ-NJMS, and trained here, so it's important to me that this program thrives.

The only way you can see the benefits of our program is by coming here. I can't offer a lot of buildings or a big name, but I can offer a great education and a great four years.

This program is not for everyone, and it may not be for you. If it's not, I wish you the best of luck in getting a spot. My experience is that most people match their first choice, so you should as well. You will love anesthesia, I know I still do after over 12 years.

It's a great field.

 

[anesguy1012]

Thanks for the information. Perhaps, rather than doing a two step interview, you should interview less candidates such as the ones above (sorry guys) who have no clue about your program. It seems to me you're all about the board scores. Do you look at the whole candidate? There is a guy in our program who failed Step 1 twice. He's like our best resident now.

 

[numbmd]

Anesguy, I've been thinking about your comments. There's a couple of reasons why we select a bunch of candidates for our first interview. We get over 600 applications for 4 spots, and interview approximately 80 for those 4 spots. I'm still going over many appications as of this late date, and guess what? I find it's a very poor method to screen applicants. Wouldn't you agree that it is much better to look an applicant in the face and ask a few questions to the person? And as an appicant, I hope you would want to have that chance as well. And the best way to do that is to bring in a bunch of people when it's quiet (a saturday), so we can take the time to look them in the face, ask a few questions, and listen to the answers.

Another good reason is to get the word out about our program. There are many people who don't know about our place, and may classify us as a low level (tier) program. Honestly, how many people know St. Barnabas? Again, bring them in and show them what we have to offer and what we are all about. I can honestly say that I doubt anyone can come to our place actually see all we have to offer, look me in the eye and say we have a lower tier program. At least after the interview some more people will now say they have heard of us.

Last year we did a survey of our unmatched students, and although many of them ended up at places like Hopkins, or Columbia, or The Brigham, many times St. Barnabas was ranked second. The word is getting out and our name is eventually getting out there.

About your comments that we are all about the boards. I'm unsure if you mean the ABA or USMLE.

Well if you mean the USMLE, I'm not sure. There is very little out there that objectively compares one student veres another. I know the licencing board states that the test is not to be used to compare students, therefore everybody does. I can say that one of our top ranked medical students last year failed step 1 of the USMLE. We can be forgiving. But I also personally feel that a student needs to show that they can excell in a high pressure setting if they want to be an anesthesiologist. It's an essential skill. Don't you agree?

If you meant the ABA, well then YES! we are all about the boards. Again like the USMLE it is somewhat objective in assessment of your training. Besides, it also is a strong factor the ACGME uses to grade your program. There are very few things I worry about, maybe the the health of my kids. But I get nervous when I'm about to hear about the ABA results. For the individual it's vitally important. You are extremely limited if you are not board certified. It's like the scarlet letter of clinical prectice. Therefore if it is important to my residents, it is important to me. I woud hope that the board pass rate would be very important to all program directors. I hope it is important to yours.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[kisses24599]

I was not going to say anything but since I began this thread I feel the need to make just a few comments.

First I really wish that St Barnabas would have thought more about the position of the applicant before implementing the two tier interview. We are still students, most a quarter of a million dollars in debt and further sinking... Why burden us with the cost of two trips to NJ? There are other ways to promote and educate others about a program. Update your FRIEDA info page and website or have an open house. Actually participate in Residency Fairs. (I say this after my school invited your program to a regional residency fair because of the large interest in anesthesia, and the department declined)

I attempted to research your program prior to applying. I contacted the program to request an email address for a resident that would be willing to answer a few of my questions, and I was told that is not usually done. So on mixed hearsay information I decided to apply. I was invited to interview but after later finding out the additional hassle of two interviews this was the first interview I cancelled as I began to exceed 12 interviews. I could only budget to interview at 12 institutions. Most of my programs are paying for my hotel accommodations but this is a very expensive process. At this point I know quite a few competitive applicants thought to cancel this interview first for the same reasons that I did. Also I know quite a few people who are keeping the interview in order to feel comfortable they can rank enough programs to MATCH and St Barnabas is no where near the top of their list. I really think this two tier interviewing in costing the program some diversity and quality of applicants. I imagine the majority are from the east coast because I can not see someone budgeting for two trips to NJ.

I do hope this all works out for those who ultimately match at your program. Maybe this process works for your small program however I also believe you are going to miss out on quite a few quality applicant who are turned off by the process. As I mentioned above I do believe there is definitely an alternative.

 

[passthegas1]

Just a little commentary on the anesthesiology program at St. Barnabas. I am currently a second year resident in anesthesia. Overall I am extremely happy that I chose this program. It is a smaller program, we currently have 11 residents (CA1 - CA3). With about 50 attendings on staff, that is a very favorable ratio for one on one teaching. The attendings are very open-minded, and let residents do the majority of procedures (there is minimal to no procedure stealing).

We have a mandatory resident run lecture from 3pm-5pm which is great board prep. (it also guarantees that you are out of the OR by 3pm ).

It also a great place to learn regional anesthesia. We have a very busy pain service, and the pain docs are wonderful at letting the residents do nerve blocks and epidurals. On L & D, we do a ton of epidurals and spinals. It isn't uncommon for a resident to put in 10 epidurals in a day on L & D.

The only real downside to the program is one of the things that make it a great program---the fact that it is a small program! Being a small program, personalities can easily conflict, and more people know your business than you might like. This typically doesn't cause major issues, but it is something to be aware of. If you want to fly under the radar, then this isn't the program for you!


ps

The interview process isn't so bad. The interviewers will already know if you are good on paper. So, be confident, personable, and make sure you express an interest in what anesthesia is and why you want to go into it. And for god's sake, don't talk about money or lifestyle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gasnewby]

not to be dense, but is it that bad to say you have interests outside the hospital and want a career with a reasonable lifestyle? or does that just equal 'lazy' in their eyes.

 

[Ferdie]

The interview process isn't so bad. The interviewers will already know if you are good on paper. So, be confident, personable, and make sure you express an interest in what anesthesia is and why you want to go into it. And for god's sake, don't talk about money or lifestyle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not so much that the interview process is "bad," as in stressful (although it is, incredibly so), it's that it's freakin' expensive and time consuming! On top of the previously-mentioned mounting debt, many of us are in clerkships right now and just don't have enough Saturdays to jet off to NJ twice either.

 

[amyl]

I was not going to say anything but since I began this thread I feel the need to make just a few comments.

First I really wish that St Barnabas would have thought more about the position of the applicant before implementing the two tier interview. We are still students, most a quarter of a million dollars in debt and further sinking... Why burden us with the cost of two trips to NJ? There are other ways to promote and educate others about a program. Update your FRIEDA info page and website or have an open house. Actually participate in Residency Fairs. (I say this after my school invited your program to a regional residency fair because of the large interest in anesthesia, and the department declined)

I attempted to research your program prior to applying. I contacted the program to request an email address for a resident that would be willing to answer a few of my questions, and I was told that is not usually done. So on mixed hearsay information I decided to apply. I was invited to interview but after later finding out the additional hassle of two interviews this was the first interview I cancelled as I began to exceed 12 interviews. I could only budget to interview at 12 institutions. Most of my programs are paying for my hotel accommodations but this is a very expensive process. At this point I know quite a few competitive applicants thought to cancel this interview first for the same reasons that I did. Also I know quite a few people who are keeping the interview in order to feel comfortable they can rank enough programs to MATCH and St Barnabas is no where near the top of their list. I really think this two tier interviewing in costing the program some diversity and quality of applicants. I imagine the majority are from the east coast because I can not see someone budgeting for two trips to NJ.

I do hope this all works out for those who ultimately match at your program. Maybe this process works for your small program however I also believe you are going to miss out on quite a few quality applicant who are turned off by the process. As I mentioned above I do believe there is definitely an alternative.

i was thinking of posting the exact same thing.... there is just not enough information out there about so many of these programs. I cancelled st. barnabas because I couldn't find anything out about it and the expense of two trips from florida was too much. so...ditto for me.

 

[numbmd]

Well, I can honestly say that I'm sorry about the confusion. I certainly remember and are well aware of the constraints of a medical student budget. We are very accommodating to budget and time constraints, and the second interview is always at the convenience of the medical student.

For the next four years, you essentially are going to live at the place where you match. If it was myself, I would want to see it more than once, wouldn't you?

Being ours is a four year program, maybe we rationalize that this could mean one less TY program you need to visit.

Again, good luck in residency hunting.

 

[Faebinder]

To score or not to score... that is the question.

(Or at least that's what it sounds to me).

I hope no other specialty or program ever implements this 2 tier interview system. Can you imagine needing to go to twice the number of interviews (cost) in that small amount of time? Sure, maybe a couple of thousand dollars doesn't seem like a big deal to the programs, but it sure is for the candidates. It also sounds to me like all the programs are getting scared of the boards now a days. ACGME tightening up for some reason? Whatever, either case I would not want to go to a 2 tier interview system. The thing is, St. Barnabas is just honestly telling to you come for a second look or else... the other programs only think it but not say it. (This doesnt mean I approve of the style of "all I got to show is boards" and "all that scares me is boards").

My two cents.

 

[Ferdie]

Well, I can honestly say that I'm sorry about the confusion. I certainly remember and are well aware of the constraints of a medical student budget. We are very accommodating to budget and time constraints, and the second interview is always at the convenience of the medical student.

For the next four years, you essentially are going to live at the place where you match. If it was myself, I would want to see it more than once, wouldn't you?

Being ours is a four year program, maybe we rationalize that this could mean one less TY program you need to visit.

Again, good luck in residency hunting.

Are you budget-friendly as in paying for air fare and hotel?

Also, it isn't one less TY program to visit, because in setting up all these interviews there is no guarantee that you will match there, you have to still prepare as if you might match at an advanced program (provided you rank both advanced and categorical)

I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but this is just the perspective of a broke, busy, stressed-out, tired med student, who's trying not to t off too many of her course directors with excessive jet setting.

 

[numbmd]

Alas, I cannot help anyone in that department. In fact, I don't get paid to do any of this, it's all volunteer work for me. However, we have been flexible for students who want to combine interviews and come on a single day. Remember, most program directors aren't as savvy with computers. We like the phone. All it takes is a call. Is everybody's phone broken? It doesn't just text message.

 

[amyl]

Thanks for the information. Perhaps, rather than doing a two step interview, you should interview less candidates such as the ones above (sorry guys) who have no clue about your program. It seems to me you're all about the board scores. Do you look at the whole candidate? There is a guy in our program who failed Step 1 twice. He's like our best resident now.

in defense of st. barnabas, they are not all about the board scores. they have invited a GREAT guy from my school with very average board (COMLEX) scores, from the middle of our class. i hope they get him.

 

[anesguy1012]

in defense of st. barnabas, they are not all about the board scores. they have invited a GREAT guy from my school with very average board (COMLEX) scores, from the middle of our class. i hope they get him.

Well, then I stand corrected. They invited a D.O. student with an average COMLEX score who is in the middle of his class? I asked allopathic students at our school about this program and they said they were rejected. I would be interested in seeing the comparison between the rejected allopathic students and the average D.O. student who was invited for an interview.

 

[VentdependenT]

Well, then I stand corrected. They invited a D.O. student with an average COMLEX score who is in the middle of his class? I asked allopathic students at our school about this program and they said they were rejected. I would be interested in seeing the comparison between the rejected allopathic students and the average D.O. student who was invited for an interview.

Nobody said the interview process made sense. There are many scenarios which play out this way.

 

[numbmd]

I have been trying to mull over some of the comments made here over the last few days. If we as an extremely small program, can receive 600 applications for 4 spots, how many applications will a big name get? 2000? More? Who can review all that without doing some arbitrary screening? Ideally you would want the program director to read your full application before deciding on your fate. Most dean's letters come out on Nov 1st. We would have to stop everything and furiously read applications starting the first. Some of us actually give anesthesia for a living.

It is clearly apparent that some students are just using the shotgun approach, applying to many programs, irrespective of whether or not they would actually WANT to attend as a resident. Some medical students seem to apply to programs that they don't even want to interview at! Please, somebody explain to me why this makes sense.

 

[anesguy1012]

I have been trying to mull over some of the comments made here over the last few days. If we as an extremely small program, can receive 600 applications for 4 spots, how many applications will a big name get? 2000? More? Who can review all that without doing some arbitrary screening? Ideally you would want the program director to read your full application before deciding on your fate. Most dean's letters come out on Nov 1st. We would have to stop everything and furiously read applications starting the first. Some of us actually give anesthesia for a living.

It is clearly apparent that some students are just using the shotgun approach, applying to many programs, irrespective of whether or not they would actually WANT to attend as a resident. Some medical students seem to apply to programs that they don't even want to interview at! Please, somebody explain to me why this makes sense.

I agree that the shotgun approach is clearly not a good method, for it makes the whole process complicated for everyone. However, I believe a large part of the reason applicants apply to a large amount of programs is because of the arbitrary screening methods used by some program directors. For a candidate who knows that he or she is not competitive in terms of statistics/scores, yet desires anesthesiology as much as the more competitive candidates, applying to a large number of schools gives that person a chance that someone at some program will actually READ the entire application and see something that would warrant an interview. For those applicants who are competitive, it gives them a sense of security to apply across the board. (Although I am a STRONG believer that those candidates need to think about others and decline interviews at programs that they know they would not like to attend.) Essentially, I believe it is the cutoffs or "initial screening methods" that lead to people applying broadly.

I wouldn't want the job of looking over 600+ applications, for I would know that 95% of those applicants would probably make excellent anesthesiologists and be good for my program and it would be a tough job. However, if your job is program director, then you owe it to the students, your program, and the system in general to do a thorough job of it, even if this means sacrificing a ball game on TV or a run to your local coffee shop in order to read a candidates application.

The burden (including cost) placed on the applicant in regards to applying for these residency positions is quite heavy...and stressful. Is it so much to ask to give that applicant an opportunity to prove him or herself by actually reading through the entire application rather than using screening methods, such as female vs male, D.O. vs M.D., USMLE score above a certain #, class rank, research vs no research, etc.? All these factors, independently, do not determine a candidates worth. I'm sure it's also difficult to determine who is actually interested in your program and who just applied "for the fun of it." But, is it actually possible to determine which candidate would and would not want to be a part of your program? It's not fair for some of these programs to screen applicants based on geography (U. of Colorado is known for doing this). What if a candidate in Alabama, West Virginia, or Idaho actually has researched your program and loves it, yet doesn't meet your arbitrary screening criteria? That student is then lost, while you gave an interview to someone based on criteria even though that student can't even spell the name of your program. When I talked to the medical students, I talked to a guy who really liked your program (he's said the same things you have - that your program is better than most people know and that he believes he will get an excellent education) and was upset that he didn't get interviewed. Granted I don't know how competitive (or not) his application is, I know I would want him as a fellow resident and I believe he is interviewing with our program later.

By the way, I believe Scott Mittman (program director at JHU) got on here and said that he waits for the Dean's letter to review all applicants. Sounds like a good plan to me.

At any rate, just that you are on here shows that you are doing your best and are concerned about the process that you are willing to get feedback from students, residents, and others. I commend you and wish you good luck in finding the residents you believe fit in best with your anesthesiology residency program.

 

[numbmd]

Generally, we do take scores into account, and not that failing isn't important, but we like to see that someone can do well if they apply themselves.

In other words, if someone failed on step 1, but came back and did well on the next attempt, they may be very worthwhile, However, if someone failed twice, and then passed, but just barely, are they a bad test taker, or really just a bad student? At some point, you have to decide and go forward. Now, it's possible we made a mistake with your student. I'm not perfect. Have him send me a message through here and I'll take another look.