Salary, private practice and obamacare

[LizzyM]

I recall an actor became one of the most popular and charismatic leaders America ever had, why not a guy like him?

The difference is that Trump has never run for any office whereas the actor was the Governor of one of our largest states and a union leader before running for President.

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[takeurmeds02]

More and more hospitals and health care systems are buying up private practices and turning physicians into employees rather than small businessmen. Just as there is no longer a corner store in every neighborhood and a milkman who delivers to your door, physicians are becoming part of larger health systems, just as corner stores and milkmen were replaced by supermarkets through the 20th century. Sure there still may be some bodegas in some neighborhoods and some towns still have a milkman, but for the most part, this commercialization of ambulatory care and hospital care (with hospitalists taking the place of the personal physician/internist or pediatrician at the bedside) is happening across America.

Kinda scary...

 

[writing]

The difference is that Trump has never run for any office whereas the actor was the Governor of one of our largest states and a union leader before running for President.

Does holding office actually matter? Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in.

I highly doubt Obama drafts or even reads any of his bills. He probably writes (or receives) a list of provisions, has the bill drafted by some idealistic kids, receives a 5-6 page summary, and signs off on it.

I also doubt Obama's knowledge of the middle eastern and world history is better than a postdocs. He has advisers who give him options, lobbyists who tell what to do, and a party at his back. I imagine a large amount of his job is pressing buttons.

I don't support trump, or anyone for actually. But I doubt he'd be worse than any prior presidents. I also question how much "experience" holding office actually matters. At the end of the day the president can be a genius with decades of experience, but if he doesn't act in the interests of taxpayers none of his experience or intellect matters. Put another way, just because a person knows the right thing to do, doesn't mean that's what they'll do.

This kind of scratches at the problems I have with politics (and democracy) as a whole. Personally, I don't really think the president matters. I'd prefer to have someone entertaining. And Trump is a good showman.

 

[Seth Joo]

The difference is that Trump has never run for any office whereas the actor was the Governor of one of our largest states and a union leader before running for President.

Well much of his popularity is because he actually talks about issues that matter to people's daily lives here in the United States, rather than the globalist stooges that make up most of the establishment candidates that really couldn't care less. Yes he is wealthy but he is clearly not detached from reality like so many politicians.

Unlike other Republicans he has not bothered to take on some nonsensical religious dogma like so many of them, which scares away a good number of voters, another reason why he is doing well in the polls.

 

[writing]

Unlike other Republicans he has not bothered to take on some nonsensical religious dogma like so many of them, which scares away a good number of voters, another reason why he is doing well in the polls.

I just pick candidates based on who I want to be first lady:

 

[Nietzschelover]

Does holding office actually matter? Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in.

I highly doubt Obama drafts or even reads any of his bills. He probably writes (or receives) a list of provisions, has the bill drafted by some idealistic kids, receives a 5-6 page summary, and signs off on it.

I also doubt Obama's knowledge of the middle eastern and world history is better than a postdocs. He has advisers who give him options, lobbyists who tell what to do, and a party at his back. I imagine a large amount of his job is pressing buttons.

I don't support trump, or anyone for actually. But I doubt he'd be worse than any prior presidents. I also question how much "experience" holding office actually matters. At the end of the day the president can be a genius with decades of experience, but if he doesn't act in the interests of taxpayers none of his experience or intellect matters. Put another way, just because a person knows the right thing to do, doesn't mean that's what they'll do.

This kind of scratches at the problems I have with politics (and democracy) as a whole. Personally, I don't really think the president matters. I'd prefer to have someone entertaining. And Trump is a good showman.

You can't be serious. Why not Dennis Rodman, then? Or Hulk Hogan? Trump would play-act at President like he was playing a video game....or the next episode of The Apprentice.

 

[Cotterpin]

Donald Trump is a narcissistic mess. I cannot believe anyone takes him seriously as a presidential candidate.

 

[writing]

You can't be serious. Why not Dennis Rodman, then? Or Hulk Hogan? Trump would play-act at President like he was playing a video game....or the next episode of The Apprentice.

Did you read my words? Or do you think Trump is simply a lucky baffoon?
"Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in."

Has Dennis Rodman or Hulk Hogan turned $100 million into billions? Do they own and successfully run conglomerates? Have they chartered large business deals, dealt with investors, and made a company grow?

Donald Trump is a narcissistic mess. I cannot believe anyone takes him seriously as a presidential candidate.

Ask yourself this; are any of the former presidents or candidates different? They're millionaires with little connection to the general American people. Some of these people haven't walked into grocery store in decades.

 

[Cotterpin]

Ask yourself this; are any of the former presidents or candidates different? They're millionaires with little connection to the general American people. Some of these people haven't walked into grocery store in decades.

Yes. Many of them are different. Most of them knew how to not act like a total laughing stock in public appearances.

 

[Gandyy]

Did you read my words? Or do you think Trump is simply a lucky baffoon?
"Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in."

Has Dennis Rodman or Hulk Hogan turned $100 million into billions? Do they own and successfully run conglomerates? Have they chartered large business deals, dealt with investors, and made a company grow?


Ask yourself this; are any of the former presidents or candidates different? They're millionaires with little connection to the general American people. Some of these people haven't walked into grocery store in decades.

Yes they are different. Donald Trump unintelligibly rambled incessantly about how much money he has and what a great company he runs as his answer for 80 percent of the questions he was asked at the first large GOP debate.

The man is a circus act.

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

Ask yourself this; are any of the former presidents or candidates different? They're millionaires with little connection to the general American people. Some of these people haven't walked into grocery store in decades.

Read up on Obama's upbringing and early career. Other than him, no, nobody recent is very different from Trump.

 

[writing]

Yes they are different. Donald Trump unintelligibly rambled incessantly about how much money he has and what a great company he runs as his answer for 80 percent of the questions he was asked at the first large GOP debate.

The man is a circus act.

They're all actors. Trump's just going for a new angle and guess what? It's working.
This may surprise you, but the on stage personality of candidates and politicians has little to do with their actually thoughts and feelings. Anyone can go through training, be quizzed on potential questions, and say something intelligent.

Trump is going for emotion.

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

How about what this thread was actually about, though...

What do you guys know about concierge medicine? I work for a doc who has a hybrid system of concierge and regular patients. Some practices are going full concierge. It seems like this will be the thing to do as a primary care doc in the future, and maybe it will spread to other specialties, as well.

 

[Cotterpin]

Read up on Obama's upbringing and early career. Other than him, no, nobody recent is very different from Trump.

You're forgetting Bill Clinton.

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

You're forgetting Bill Clinton.

True.

 

[Gandyy]

They're all actors. Trump's just going for a new angle and guess what? It's working.
This may surprise you, but the on stage personality of candidates and politicians has little to do with their actually thoughts and feelings. Anyone can go through training, be quizzed on potential questions, and say something intelligent.

Trump is going for emotion.

Please don't talk down to me and explain to me that "personality of candidates and politicians has little to do with their actual thoughts and feelings". I know this. Everyone here knows this. And hopefully most of the rest of the world knows this.

That doenst change the fact of how much of a ***** he sounds like.

 

[Cotterpin]

They're all actors. Trump's just going for a new angle and guess what? It's working.
This may surprise you, but the on stage personality of candidates and politicians has little to do with their actually thoughts and feelings. Anyone can go through training, be quizzed on potential questions, and say something intelligent.

Trump is going for emotion.

Trump's "angle" is the same public persona he's had for decades. It has nothing to do with clever political strategy and everything to do with his glaring personality disorder. If this works for him in a general election (and I hope to god it doesn't), then he's still gonna be the same old Trump when he has to do the actual job of being the president. He's going to be a massive embarrassment on the international stage. Think like Bush II, but turned up to eleven.

 

[writing]

Please don't talk down to me and explain to me that "personality of candidates and politicians has little to do with their actual thoughts and feelings". I know this. Everyone here knows this. And hopefully most of the rest of the world knows this.
That doenst change the fact of how much of a ***** he sounds like.

If you know that then what exactly do you want out of a candidate? Clean cut candidate who rambles about bs virtues? Trump hasn't offered any real plans or substance, but at least he has talked about important issues (illegal immigration, terrorism).

Trump's "angle" is the same public persona he's had for decades. It has nothing to do with clever political strategy and everything to do with his glaring personality disorder. If this works for him in a general election (and I hope to god it doesn't), then he's still gonna be the same old Trump when he has to do the actual job of being the president. He's going to be a massive embarrassment on the international stage. Think like Bush II, but turned up to eleven.

The strategy he uses is called "Demagoguery" in Russian, and I am not sure what English word for it might be (sophism perhaps). Basically, he goes into every debate with concrete confidence he had already won, doesn't yield to any argument and attacks opponents at every opportunity to the point of completely derailing any conversation.

There is an (in)famous Russian politician who can easily school Trump in this style of debate - Vladimir Zhirinovsky. He is pretty recognized abroad, mainly for the subtitled video where he invites Condoleezza Rice to Russia to get gangbanged by Russian servicemen.

I am actually quite sure that every Eastern European, Middle Eastern or African country has their own Zhirinovski, only in US and Europe this **** is new. The thing is, any well-prepared and cool-headed politician who can keep composed in the face of Trump's antics would completely destroy him and his political career.

He's going to be a massive embarrassment on the international stage. Think like Bush II, but turned up to eleven.

Media perception =/= behind closed doors. To get where he is, Trump has had to deal with a lot of people. I highly doubt that he gets into peoples face and yells at them, when trying to reach an agreement...
I'm not saying he should be president. I'm just saying he is no less qualified than any of the career politicians.

 

[Cotterpin]

There is an (in)famous Russian politician who can easily school Trump in this style of debate - Vladimir Zhirinovsky. He is pretty recognized abroad, mainly for the subtitled video where he invites Condoleezza Rice to Russia to get gangbanged by Russian servicemen.

I am actually quite sure that every Eastern European, Middle Eastern or African country has their own Zhirinovski, only in US and Europe this **** is new. The thing is, any well-prepared and cool-headed politician who can keep composed in the face of Trump's antics would completely destroy him and his political career.

And why would we want someone as our president whose grating public persona is most similar to an infamous political style, often seen in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, which could be easily defeated by anyone with normal political experience? It would be a disaster.

Media perception =/= behind closed doors. To get where he is, Trump has had to deal with a lot of people. I highly doubt that he gets into peoples face and yells at them, when trying to reach an agreement...
I'm not saying he should be president. I'm just saying he is no less qualified than any of the career politicians.

How old are you? Donald Trump has been acting this way in the public eye since before you were born (probably). To get where he is? He's a real estate developer (took over his father's business) and a tv personality. He is not qualified to be the President of the United States.

 

[allantois]

If you know that then what exactly do you want out of a candidate? Clean cut candidate who rambles about bs virtues? Trump hasn't offered any real plans or substance, but at least he has talked about important issues (illegal immigration, terrorism).



The strategy he uses is called "Demagoguery" in Russian, and I am not sure what English word for it might be (sophism perhaps). Basically, he goes into every debate with concrete confidence he had already won, doesn't yield to any argument and attacks opponents at every opportunity to the point of completely derailing any conversation.

There is an (in)famous Russian politician who can easily school Trump in this style of debate - Vladimir Zhirinovsky. He is pretty recognized abroad, mainly for the subtitled video where he invites Condoleezza Rice to Russia to get gangbanged by Russian servicemen.

I am actually quite sure that every Eastern European, Middle Eastern or African country has their own Zhirinovski, only in US and Europe this **** is new. The thing is, any well-prepared and cool-headed politician who can keep composed in the face of Trump's antics would completely destroy him and his political career.



Media perception =/= behind closed doors. To get where he is, Trump has had to deal with a lot of people. I highly doubt that he gets into peoples face and yells at them, when trying to reach an agreement...
I'm not saying he should be president. I'm just saying he is no less qualified than any of the career politicians.

As someone intimately familiar with Russian politics, Zhirinovsky is a political puppet of Putin; whose goal is to demonstrate to public that alternatives to Russian president are way worse than the current president (since Zhirinovsky regularly runs for president as a candidate from "Democratic" party of Russia). And no, I am not aware of any Eastern European politicians who are like him. There is also absolutely no place for somebody who talks this way in American government, unless you want the world to hate us even more.

 

[username456789]

I'm not really sure I'd do medical school again if I was currently premed. I enjoyed it, and I greatly enjoy my specialty (for now, at least), but my situation is not the reality for most (very competitive specialty with small number of total residency spots). I'm not a chicken little when it comes to this stuff, but the reality is that things have been looking worse and worse for many doctors over the past several years, and that trend is not likely to reverse.

At least I will be out of residency in less than a year. If I had the fortune of going to medical school for free (or close to it), then I might be more swayed. As it stands now, most people are taking on a nearly insurmountable debt for an increasingly unsure future. it also doesn't help that many of the people clamoring to get into medical school blindly support people whose policies would further handicap their success in the future.

It's very easy to claim "I'd be a doctor even if I made $80k!", especially if your family is used to making less - I was one of those silly premeds over a decade ago. It's alarming, though, how quickly most people will see the light. Unfortunately, not quickly enough.

 

[Gandyy]

If you know that then what exactly do you want out of a candidate? Clean cut candidate who rambles about bs virtues? Trump hasn't offered any real plans or substance, but at least he has talked about important issues (illegal immigration, terrorism).



The strategy he uses is called "Demagoguery" in Russian, and I am not sure what English word for it might be (sophism perhaps). Basically, he goes into every debate with concrete confidence he had already won, doesn't yield to any argument and attacks opponents at every opportunity to the point of completely derailing any conversation.

There is an (in)famous Russian politician who can easily school Trump in this style of debate - Vladimir Zhirinovsky. He is pretty recognized abroad, mainly for the subtitled video where he invites Condoleezza Rice to Russia to get gangbanged by Russian servicemen.

I am actually quite sure that every Eastern European, Middle Eastern or African country has their own Zhirinovski, only in US and Europe this **** is new. The thing is, any well-prepared and cool-headed politician who can keep composed in the face of Trump's antics would completely destroy him and his political career.



Media perception =/= behind closed doors. To get where he is, Trump has had to deal with a lot of people. I highly doubt that he gets into peoples face and yells at them, when trying to reach an agreement...
I'm not saying he should be president. I'm just saying he is no less qualified than any of the career politicians.

Just as @Cotterpin says, Trump has been acting this way since way before this election. Since you seem to adore him so much, I am surprised you dont know this.

 

[Gandyy]

Trump's "angle" is the same public persona he's had for decades. It has nothing to do with clever political strategy and everything to do with his glaring personality disorder. If this works for him in a general election (and I hope to god it doesn't), then he's still gonna be the same old Trump when he has to do the actual job of being the president. He's going to be a massive embarrassment on the international stage. Think like Bush II, but turned up to eleven.

Also Cotterpin has nailed it in this post.

Essentially, Trump has always been an extreme narcissist with too much money.

The way he runs his mouth... Oh my god. Its so disgusting.

 

[NotYou20]

Donald Trump is a narcissistic mess. I cannot believe anyone takes him seriously as a presidential candidate.

Jesse Ventura win a gubernatorial race. After that I cannot be surprised at who Americans will vote for.

 

[Cotterpin]

Jesse Ventura win a gubernatorial race. After that I cannot be surprised at who Americans will vote for.

True. But the governor of Minnesota is much more reasonable first step in politics than President of the United States. If Trump is serious and this isn't just about him stroking his ego, then he should start a little bit smaller. Run for office in NYC or NY state first.

 

[NotYou20]

True. But the governor of Minnesota is much more reasonable first step in politics than President of the United States. If Trump is serious and this isn't just about him stroking his ego, then he should start a little bit smaller. Run for office in NYC or NY state first.

But their supporters aren't reasonable. It doesn't matter if it's a reasonable first step, and can even help because their appeal is being different.

 

[LizzyM]

Does holding office actually matter? Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in.

I highly doubt Obama drafts or even reads any of his bills. He probably writes (or receives) a list of provisions, has the bill drafted by some idealistic kids, receives a 5-6 page summary, and signs off on it.

Do you even know how a bill becomes a law? The President does not draft bills or engage idealistic kids to do so on his behalf. Study up on the legislative and executive branches of government before you spout any more nonsense.

 

[StudyLater]

It's very easy to claim "I'd be a doctor even if I made $80k!", especially if your family is used to making less - I was one of those silly premeds over a decade ago. It's alarming, though, how quickly most people will see the light. Unfortunately, not quickly enough.

If you're talking about me, I mostly meant to poke fun at that exact paradigm.

With that said, possible to make 80k and pay off the 200k @ ~7%? Uhhhhh....maybe? Keeping a budget super duper tight (max 20k/yr expenses, no fam, assume 25k of the 80 goes to taxes), then yeah, maybe you'd get it done in 7-8yrs. But for those that need instant gratification, and for those that decide to start a family earlier, things will be more difficult. Granted, though, those are choices that one would carefully consider beforehand if one was intending to go into this profession for an eventual 80k salary.

But you give us an 80k salary and two things happen to begin with: 1. you're basically auto-admitted if you have >=3.6 and >=70th percentile MCAT (because basically no one is applying anymore) and 2. tuition at public universities goes down with pressure from state lobbyists in addition to the need to rekindle student demand. Leverage entirely shifts our way, in such a situation. Classical economics is a b*tch.

 

[StudyLater]

Do you even know how a bill becomes a law? The President does not draft bills or engage idealistic kids to do so on his behalf. Study up on the legislative and executive branches of government before you spout any more nonsense.

Well, he can propose one, and maybe even "recommend" certain individuals (his people) to act as assistants in the drafting of the bill.

 

[username456789]

If you're talking about me, I mostly meant to poke fun at that exact paradigm.

With that said, possible to make 80k and pay off the 200k @ ~7%? Uhhhhh....maybe? Keeping a budget super duper tight (max 20k/yr expenses, no fam, assume 25k of the 80 goes to taxes), then yeah, maybe you'd get it done in 7-8yrs. But for those that need instant gratification, and for those that decide to start a family earlier, things will be more difficult. Granted, though, those are choices that one would carefully consider beforehand if one was intending to go into this profession for an eventual 80k salary.

But you give us an 80k salary and two things happen to begin with: 1. you're basically auto-admitted if you have >=3.6 and >=70th percentile MCAT (because basically no one is applying anymore) and 2. tuition at public universities goes down with pressure from state lobbyists in addition to the need to rekindle student demand. Leverage entirely shifts our way, in such a situation. Classical economics is a b*tch.

It wasn't a dig at you. It's just something that comes up way too often.

Also, you're neglecting the not insignificant number of students who will continue to experience the horror of higher tuition with the resultant low reimbursement. Fewer people applying and lower tuition (following a precipitous decline in reimbursement) mean nothing to someone who already graduated with $250-400,000 in debt and is left hanging. The current crop of premed/med students (and residents) face this very likely scenario (a significant decline, not the $80,000 figure specifically).

 

[StudyLater]

It wasn't a dig at you. It's just something that comes up way too often.

Also, you're neglecting the not insignificant number of students who will continue to experience the horror of higher tuition with the resultant low reimbursement. Fewer people applying and lower tuition (following a precipitous decline in reimbursement) mean nothing to someone who already graduated with $250-400,000 in debt and is left hanging. The current crop of premed/med students (and residents) face this very likely scenario (a significant decline, not the $80,000 figure specifically).

And as I was saying, it'd be manageable. Particularly if salaries remain above, say, 100k, even with a family, you'll manage. You will. If you cannot, funds are being allocated inappropriately. if that's me (250-400k, 100k salary), I've got no one to blame. Expecting our economy to take care of us at this point is just simpleton logic (I say this as a kid, without even any significant professional experience, and not even with a degree yet; at this stage we're as ideal as it gets). I could work more than my 40hrs/wk (moonlighting gig or whatever), and bring in more if it really is getting dire (it won't).

That "crop" lasts 30-40 years and is long gone thereafter. They either suffer the market change and find a way to adapt or switch markets. It's happened a thousand times before in a thousand different businesses.

 

[username456789]

And as I was saying, it'd be manageable. Particularly if salaries remain above, say, 100k, even with a family, you'll manage. You will. If you cannot, funds are being allocated inappropriately. if that's me (250-400k, 100k salary), I've got no one to blame. Expecting our economy to take care of us at this point is just simpleton logic (I say this as a kid, without even any significant professional experience, and not even with a degree yet; at this stage we're as ideal as it gets). I could work more than my 40hrs/wk (moonlighting gig or whatever), and bring in more if it really is getting dire (it won't).

That "crop" lasts 30-40 years and is long gone thereafter. They either suffer the market change and find a way to adapt or switch markets. It's happened a thousand times before in a thousand different businesses.

It's very different when you are one of those in the crop.

"We will manage somehow" is going to be the rallying cry if the fledgling medical graduates. Wonderful and inspirational.

Trust me, all these Econ 100 theories are well and good, but you will eventually realize the true personal economic impact current trends will have. And you won't like it, but you will have "managed" up to that point, so you'll Have little recourse otherwise.

 

[StudyLater]

It's very different when you are one of those in the crop.

"We will manage somehow" is going to be the rallying cry if the fledgling medical graduates. Wonderful.

It's already the cry of like half our nation's citizens. I don't mind a little solidarity.

Either that or we could revolt against the oppressive aristocratic rich class, French Rev style.

 

[Mad Jack]

I didn't mean single payer would cause 50k salaries. I'm just saying that we are all prepared to receive that in the future if we must.

Meh, with liability and everything the way it is, I'd need at least 150k to be a physician, and even that is stretching it. Could push that boundary lower with less hours, paying off my student loans, and malpractice going out the window, to perhaps 95k. But realistically, those will never occur, so if medicine drops below 150k or so on the pay scale, I'll jump ship to management or consulting. Not that that'll likely happen in the next 20 years or so, but if it were to pass, I'd certainly be out.

 

[username456789]

It's already the cry of like half our nation's citizens. I don't mind a little solidarity.

And this is the kind of damning attitude I spoke about earlier.

 

[StudyLater]

Meh, with liability and everything the way it is, I'd need at least 150k to be a physician, and even that is stretching it. Could push that boundary lower with less hours, paying off my student loans, and malpractice going out the window, to perhaps 95k. But realistically, those will never occur, so if medicine drops below 150k or so on the pay scale, I'll jump ship to management or consulting. Not that that'll likely happen in the next 20 years or so, but if it were to pass, I'd certainly be out.

I'm about the same on this.

And this is the kind of damning attitude I spoke about earlier.

I'm sorry I am like allergic to being serious.

I swear I am just as hyper-capitalist as any other pre-med. I just really enjoy exploring multiple viewpoints and acting like they're mine.

 

[username456789]

I'm sorry I am like allergic to being serious.

I swear I am just as hyper-capitalist as any other pre-med. I just really enjoy exploring multiple viewpoints and acting like they're mine.

The problem is that the views you're ostensibly lampooning seem to be firmly held by the majority of college premedical students.

 

[allantois]

Meh, with liability and everything the way it is, I'd need at least 150k to be a physician, and even that is stretching it. Could push that boundary lower with less hours, paying off my student loans, and malpractice going out the window, to perhaps 95k. But realistically, those will never occur, so if medicine drops below 150k or so on the pay scale, I'll jump ship to management or consulting. Not that that'll likely happen in the next 20 years or so, but if it were to pass, I'd certainly be out.

And we will have thousands of physicians jumping the ship for the same? Not sure there would be enough market for it.

 

[deleted393595]

Does holding office actually matter? Being president is a management job. Resource allocation, brokering deals, and managing interests (taxpayer vs. party vs. lobbyist). Things that the CEO of a billion dollar conglomerate is probably experienced in.

Lol no.

Also, paging @avgn on this.

 

[Mad Jack]

And as I was saying, it'd be manageable. Particularly if salaries remain above, say, 100k, even with a family, you'll manage. You will. If you cannot, funds are being allocated inappropriately. if that's me (250-400k, 100k salary), I've got no one to blame. Expecting our economy to take care of us at this point is just simpleton logic (I say this as a kid, without even any significant professional experience, and not even with a degree yet; at this stage we're as ideal as it gets). I could work more than my 40hrs/wk (moonlighting gig or whatever), and bring in more if it really is getting dire (it won't).

That "crop" lasts 30-40 years and is long gone thereafter. They either suffer the market change and find a way to adapt or switch markets. It's happened a thousand times before in a thousand different businesses.

It's all very unlikely. The thing is, physicians are all smart enough that, for the most part, we've got other options. Once we've been trained, if we retire early or leave the market, the lead time to replace us is over a decade. If wages dropped precipitously, the old timers would take their **** you money and leave. Given the age of the medical workforce, that's a huge number of people lost. I'd be out in a heartbeat, even with my 400k in debt, which I calculated paying off with the lowest paying specialty at the time I enrolled in medical school. But if the pay drops below the lowest of the current low, well, I won't be on board, plain and simple. I'll go do PAYE, they can keep 10% of my paycheck for the next 25 years, and I'll do something that is far less draining and risky than medicine. Who knows, might even make more money.

 

[StudyLater]

The problem is that the views you're ostensibly lampooning seem to be firmly held by the majority of college premedical students.

Really? It seems like most of the ones I'm talking to are all about the dough. Maybe it's more a female thing to care about people excessively, though.

/sexism

 

[Mad Jack]

And we will have thousands of physicians jumping the ship for the same? Not sure there would be enough market for it.

I've got skills outside of medicine- tech, sales, and business- unlike most traditional students. I'll jump ship. I don't care what happens to the rest of you. It's every man for himself when the ship's going down.

 

[StudyLater]

But if the pay drops below the lowest of the current low, well, I won't be on board, plain and simple.

Ahhhhhhh

But no I'd do the same thing. Or just go into some other midlevel profession if it still paid the same as it does now. If salaries go sub-200k there are midlevel positions (as you've noted before) that could beat that.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ahhhhhhh

But no I'd do the same thing. Or just go into some other midlevel profession if it still paid the same as it does now. If salaries go sub-200k there are midlevel positions (as you've noted before) that could beat that.

Midlevel reimbursement would probably drop as well, as would nursing salaries. Midlevels are reimbursed in the same manner as physicians, and nurses can't make bank if the hospital is taking cuts.

 

[allantois]

It's very different when you are one of those in the crop.

"We will manage somehow" is going to be the rallying cry if the fledgling medical graduates. Wonderful and inspirational.

Trust me, all these Econ 100 theories are well and good, but you will eventually realize the true personal economic impact current trends will have. And you won't like it, but you will have "managed" up to that point, so you'll Have little recourse otherwise.

The government has the ultimate power over physician reimbursements, with some few exceptions. Physicians will not intimidate the public by claiming that they will jump the ship; even if the older generation does, this will not pose a significant shortage for the country. First of all, there are plenty of fields (say clinical Psychology) which require the same number of years as medicine (6 PhD + 1 postdoc + 1 clinical internship year); those people are making less than 100k and there is no lack of applicants into their programs. Secondly, it would be an opportunity for midlevels to claim more clinical rights as they are not currently abandoning medicine making 100k. And if all fails, the government could recruit foreign-trained workforce in a heartbeat, who would be extremely happy to make multiple times more than what they are compensated in their homelands.

 

[username456789]

Ahhhhhhh

But no I'd do the same thing. Or just go into some other midlevel profession if it still paid the same as it does now. If salaries go sub-200k there are midlevel positions (as you've noted before) that could beat that.

Unfortunately, the cohort of students of which you're a part will have already signed many a promissory note and likely have graduated med school before the full reality would begin to set in. Saying you would instead apply to become a midlevel if salaries dropped a bunch is only helpful if the expected drop occurs decisively and swiftly in the next 1-2 years.

 

[allantois]

I've got skills outside of medicine- tech, sales, and business- unlike most traditional students. I'll jump ship. I don't care what happens to the rest of you. It's every man for himself when the ship's going down.

well I already took the lifeboat, so ...

 

[StudyLater]

Unfortunately, the cohort of students of which you're a part will have already signed many a promissory note and likely have graduated med school before the full reality would begin to set in. Saying you would instead apply to become a midlevel if salaries dropped a bunch is only helpful if the expected drop occurs decisively and swiftly in the next 1-2 years.

Solution: Bankrupcy & never taking a loan again for the rest of your life.

@Mad Jack you selfish (i.e. economically intelligent) sonofab*tch.

 

[username456789]

The government has the ultimate power over physician reimbursements, with some few exceptions. Physicians will not intimidate the public by claiming that they will jump the ship; even if the older generation does, this will not pose a significant shortage for the country. First of all, there are plenty of fields (say clinical Psychology) which require the same number of years as medicine (6 PhD + 1 postdoc + 1 clinical internship year); those people are making less than 100k and there is no lack of applicants into their programs. Secondly, it would be an opportunity for midlevels to claim more clinical rights as they are not currently abandoning medicine making 100k. And if all fails, the government could recruit foreign-trained workforce in a heartbeat, who would be extremely happy to make multiple times more than what they are compensated in their homelands.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all, and I hope you're not insinuating that I was.

In fact, one of the major problems is that premeds have this idealistic "medicine or bust, the money will probably sort itself out" attitude that will continue to result in increasing medical school enrollment and class sizes. Look at law school - it's currently a **** proposition for all but the very highest echelon, but a bunch of History and Philosophy majors are still fighting tooth and nail to get in.

I'm not arguing that people will stop applying to medical school, as we will continue to need physicians. Nor do I share any delusions that applications will fall significantly anytime soon. It is exactly that reason that we should stop being complacent with the negative trends, or else we (individuals) should consider another profession. As Mad Jack says, when it comes to jumping ship in this instance, you're on your own. You don't owe it to anyone to be one of the clueless lemmings who would bust their tail to become a physician in some post-apocalyptic medical dystopia.

 

[StudyLater]

some post-apocalyptic medical dystopia.

I love how this is the description for making <150k.