SALARY SURVEY Article

[necodaak8]

I have been considering becoming a clinical psychologist for the past few months. This website has been extremely helpful. I notice people talk about salaries and job stability. Well, I found this extremely detailed research paper regarding salaries for neuropsychologists. They were much higher then I anticipated. Please read the following link and tell me your thoughts. The research project seems real encouraging. Moreover, how do you exactly become a neuropsychologist? Do you go to a clinical psychology program that has an emphasis in neuropsychology? Please let me know. Thanks!

http://www.theaacn.org/position_papers/AACN_salary_survey_2005.pdf

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[PsyDr]

neuropsychologist= a doctorate in clinical psych + 2 year post doc in neuropsych. best case scenario: it

i am very surprised that anyone would think that a $100k annual income after 15 years for a degree that takes almost a decade to complete is high.

 

[necodaak8]

neuropsychologist= a doctorate in clinical psych + 2 year post doc in neuropsych. best case scenario: it

i am very surprised that anyone would think that a $100k annual income after 15 years for a degree that takes almost a decade to complete is high.

The article states that starting in your 6th year the average salary is 103,000, with people in the 75% percentile making 120. Initial salaries are at an average of 76. Also, the majority of people I know have taken their doctorate in 5 years, not 10.

 

[PsyDr]

the average for completion of phd/psyd in psychology is between 5-7 years, program dependent. your acquaintances fall in the low part of the curve.


but you are forgetting the 2 year post doc for neuro.

5+2=7
7+2= 9

in my opinion, both times to completion are roughly around a decade.


the starting numbers in the sweet survey begin after post doc, so 2 years after graduation from the doctoral program. assume you graduated from undergrad at 22 years of age. and that you immediately went into a doctoral program. you'd graduate at 27-28 depending on when your internship ended. you'd then complete a 2 year post doc, with salaries averaging around 30-35k. that second year you would be licensed and effectively making approximately 50% less than the national average for licensed psychologists working in a non-private practice setting. then you'd graduate from your post doc.

assuming you immediately landed a job, at 29-30 you'd start making the national average for clinical psychologists (70-80k). 6 years later at age 36, you'd be making around 103k.

for all that work, the payout seems not so great to me.

let's then look at the opportunity cost: compare the salary to the loss of opportunity for working for 7 years. looking around, i would say that the average salary for an individual with a BA in psychology would roughly be around 35-40k/yr. so assuming you never ever got a raise, and that no benefits were given to you, and that you never invested a single cent, or bought any durable goods, you would be losing out on $245,000-280,000. then factor in any debt you get from going to grad school. let's be conservative and go with 1996 APA data: 40% had over 30k for school. so the opportunity cost becomes 275,00 to 310,000. subtract out the post doc and internship salaries combined, which i would guess would be around 95k. you are sitting on a cost of opportunity of 180k. this estimate is impossibly low as you would likley get a raise or make an investment or buy some consumer durable during this 7 years. however, making up for that low estimate would take a considerable amount of time, which i do not wish to calculate for you but would guess would be over a decade before you actually started earning money on the deal.

you could also do an ROI analysis. but i am getting bored with this and imagine the numbers get worse.

t4c might be able to give much better numbers, i think this is more his deal.

 

[necodaak8]

Your point is well taken. I just got completely turned off from going into this field lol. I am assuming you are a Clinical Psychologist, how do you enjoy your job in terms of the time of schooling required, tuition costs, salaries, and specific job? I like the fact that you observed multiple factors when analyzing the job.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

you could also do an ROI analysis. but i am getting bored with this and imagine the numbers get worse.

t4c might be able to give much better numbers, i think this is more his deal.

I've commented on this in the past, so some searches may turn up those posts. As for issues of ROI....it can get mighty ugly for those of us that left other careers to become poor grad students for the better part of a decade. At last review, my 7-8 years will cost me ~$1m in lost salary and benefits. The only redeeming factor is I get up most mornings and love what I do, which is more than I could say about my previous career. I should be able to recoup some of that if I am aggressive with my business plan, but in the end (for me at least) it was a lifestyle choice, not a financial one.

I actually just lectured on a similar topic last week ("The Business of Psychology"), and a portion of my lecture looked at alternative revenue streams, which for many can be the difference between living comfortably and working to live. The most successful professionals out there are rarely the best clinicians. I joked around in my lecture that I know some people who are admittedly "mediocre" (their words) at what they do, but they take advantage of opportunities and have made great careers out of working "smarter not harder"; that is my goal.

 

[neurocenni]

Would you mind sharing some of the alternative revenue streams? It sounds like a really interesting lecture. I am pursuing a PhD in psychology because it is my passion but I would also like to be comfortable so please share if you do not mind.

I've commented on this in the past, so some searches may turn up those posts. As for issues of ROI....it can get mighty ugly for those of us that left other careers to become poor grad students for the better part of a decade. At last review, my 7-8 years will cost me ~$1m in lost salary and benefits. The only redeeming factor is I get up most mornings and love what I do, which is more than I could say about my previous career. I should be able to recoup some of that if I am aggressive with my business plan, but in the end (for me at least) it was a lifestyle choice, not a financial one.

I actually just lectured on a similar topic last week ("The Business of Psychology"), and a portion of my lecture looked at alternative revenue streams, which for many can be the difference between living comfortably and working to live. The most successful professionals out there are rarely the best clinicians. I joked around in my lecture that I know some people who are admittedly "mediocre" (their words) at what they do, but they take advantage of opportunities and have made great careers out of working "smarter not harder"; that is my goal.

 

[PsyDr]

n general:

1) the time for schooling sucks. it was hard putting off some normal things that non-grad school peers did. for example, a bunch of my buddies went to europe one year and i was unable to go because that was finals week. other parts of school were fun.

2) tuition was not a concern for me.

3) there is no salary at my job. i get paid by billable hours. it is a very stressful way to live. sometimes i will have more work than i could possibly do in the time frame it is needed in. at other times, i have no work to do for weeks on end. this means that my paychecks can vary from $0 to a lot . when i get a call at 3pm on easter sunday, i have to go in because i never know when the next slow period will begin. this does not always go over so well in my social relationships. however, i am do make very decent living. but i often talk to my physician friends and realize what i make is nothing in comparison. for example, one of my colleagues just sold his surgical practice for $20 mil. the ability to spend money is also significantly limited by my work schedule.

4) there are parts of my job i really like and other parts i really hate. sometimes people actually want help, which is very rewarding. sometimes i see somethign that i have only read about, which is neat. oftentimes i am treated as an expert in things which is exciting and humbling.

while at other times patients just want to be right. i get to tell people bad news pretty often. a lot of times people yell at me. i see and hear some incredibly terrible stuff. all that sucks.


day to day, i have some freedom that a typical office job might not have. while i work 7days a week for the most part, i can take off a random tuesday to go to a baseball game if there isn't a dire need for me somewhere. there are also "paperwork" days where i sleep in until 9am and then work until 7pm in jeans.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Would you mind sharing some of the alternative revenue streams? It sounds like a really interesting lecture. I am pursuing a PhD in psychology because it is my passion but I would also like to be comfortable so please share if you do not mind.

I can post a few things later this week/weekend.

 

[nala56]

the average for completion of phd/psyd in psychology is between 5-7 years, program dependent. your acquaintances fall in the low part of the curve.


but you are forgetting the 2 year post doc for neuro.

5+2=7
7+2= 9

in my opinion, both times to completion are roughly around a decade.


the starting numbers in the sweet survey begin after post doc, so 2 years after graduation from the doctoral program. assume you graduated from undergrad at 22 years of age. and that you immediately went into a doctoral program. you'd graduate at 27-28 depending on when your internship ended. you'd then complete a 2 year post doc, with salaries averaging around 30-35k. that second year you would be licensed and effectively making approximately 50% less than the national average for licensed psychologists working in a non-private practice setting. then you'd graduate from your post doc.

assuming you immediately landed a job, at 29-30 you'd start making the national average for clinical psychologists (70-80k). 6 years later at age 36, you'd be making around 103k.

for all that work, the payout seems not so great to me.

let's then look at the opportunity cost: compare the salary to the loss of opportunity for working for 7 years. looking around, i would say that the average salary for an individual with a BA in psychology would roughly be around 35-40k/yr. so assuming you never ever got a raise, and that no benefits were given to you, and that you never invested a single cent, or bought any durable goods, you would be losing out on $245,000-280,000. then factor in any debt you get from going to grad school. let's be conservative and go with 1996 APA data: 40% had over 30k for school. so the opportunity cost becomes 275,00 to 310,000. subtract out the post doc and internship salaries combined, which i would guess would be around 95k. you are sitting on a cost of opportunity of 180k. this estimate is impossibly low as you would likley get a raise or make an investment or buy some consumer durable during this 7 years. however, making up for that low estimate would take a considerable amount of time, which i do not wish to calculate for you but would guess would be over a decade before you actually started earning money on the deal.

you could also do an ROI analysis. but i am getting bored with this and imagine the numbers get worse.

t4c might be able to give much better numbers, i think this is more his deal.

Do you feel that there is no financial security as a clinical psychologist or neuropsychologist?

 

[nala56]

I've commented on this in the past, so some searches may turn up those posts. As for issues of ROI....it can get mighty ugly for those of us that left other careers to become poor grad students for the better part of a decade. At last review, my 7-8 years will cost me ~$1m in lost salary and benefits. The only redeeming factor is I get up most mornings and love what I do, which is more than I could say about my previous career. I should be able to recoup some of that if I am aggressive with my business plan, but in the end (for me at least) it was a lifestyle choice, not a financial one.

I actually just lectured on a similar topic last week ("The Business of Psychology"), and a portion of my lecture looked at alternative revenue streams, which for many can be the difference between living comfortably and working to live. The most successful professionals out there are rarely the best clinicians. I joked around in my lecture that I know some people who are admittedly "mediocre" (their words) at what they do, but they take advantage of opportunities and have made great careers out of working "smarter not harder"; that is my goal.

Can you share some of the information from that lecture?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Can you share some of the information from that lecture?

Building wealth requires establishing both active and passive revenue streams, and we have some great opportunities in psych, though most psychologists aren't naturally inclined to search these opportunities out.

Here are some of the additional paths you can take.....

n

Slide 43 .O {color:white; font-size:149%;} .O1 {color:white; font-size:149%;} .O2 {color:white; font-size:149%;} a:link {color:#00CCFF !important;} a:active {color:#336699 !important;} a:visited {color:#FFCC00 !important;} Business Consulting

• Executive Coaching
• Dispute Resolution / Mediation
• EAP

Training / Development

• Communication Training
• Program Evaluation & Development

Private Consulting

• Life Coaching
• Grant Writing
• Executive Placement

Education

• Inter-departmental Training
• Outreach Education

My business plan is much closer to that of a "consultant" than "psychologist". I have a basis in the former, so I'm going to leverage that to help fund my "psychologist" side. Most people that go this route start small....usually building out a small staff that can produce a steady passive revenue stream, as you need to be able to make money while not physically being somewhere.


Ugh....I need to catch my flight. I can post a bit more later this weekend, but that should get you started.

 

[PsyDr]

Do you feel that there is no financial security as a clinical psychologist or neuropsychologist?

there is no financial security in private practice. like any self employed individual, you are completely without a safety net.

in an institutional setting, the pay checks are always forthcoming. but the pay is substantially less.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

there is no financial security in private practice. like any self employed individual, you are completely without a safety net.

in an institutional setting, the pay checks are always forthcoming. but the pay is substantially less.

Often 50%+ less.

 

[psychmama]

Personally, I like the idea of trying to combine work in an institutional setting with a part-time practice. I imagine this gets hectic, but it seems like a good blend of the advantages of both. I could see working in a hospital or counseling center, then seeing 8-10 patients privately a week.

In addition to the greater stability, I like being in a work setting where I have colleagues to interact with and learn from. Private practice is appealing, but I worry about becoming isolated and sort of "stale". I think there are ways to avoid this (e.g., professional development, joining committees, peer supervision groups). But I think it's harder to work this in if it's dependent on you to make it happen.