Schools Rejecting for High Stats?

[ziggy1104]

Hey guys,

I'm wondering, the school I'm applying to (LECOM) had an average GPA of 3.2 last year. This got me thinking, I wonder if some schools automatically disregard apps with high stats because they assume the applicant has applied to several other schools and won't attend anyway.

What do you guys think?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[HaverfoodsDDS]

This happens 100%.

 

[hunterx2]

It happened to me for sure. Didn't get a couple of interviews at places whose averages are way below my stats.

 

[kingenamel]

I think it happens aswell. I'm still waiting to hear a single peep from schools I have stats above their averages.

 

[HaverfoodsDDS]

I personally was rejected w/o interview from BU, ASDOH, and Midwestern-AZ and from Western post-interview with a 4.0+ and a 22DAT (Accepted to UCLA, UCSF, Penn, Michigan, USC), and had a friend who was rejected w/o interview from LECOM, Roseman, Western, NYU and BU even though he was accepted at Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, and UCSF....If you have unusually high #'s it's probably wise to not apply to some of those expensive and less-established schools because unless you make it extremely evident in your application that you are strongly considering them, they know that you will have other (and better) options on the table....

 

[Glimmer1991]

I was rejected without an interview from UConn. I was also informed that they "didn't note any issues" with my application.

Here are their baseline stats: "Over the past two years incoming students have had an average science GPA of 3.5 and DAT total science score of 21."

I have seen this sort of thing happen too often. I definitely think schools do what you have described.

 

[wazian2018]

Still haven't heard from BU... apparently I'm still under review... wut

 

[tandem7]

I was rejected without an interview from Tufts yet scored an interview at Columbia within 2 weeks of applying there (I didn't attend the interview) and also an interview to a state school that is not out of state friendly at all (I was from out of state), among some other schools. I do believe my high stats (particularly my DAT scores--25AA/26TS) had something to do with my Tufts rejection.

 

[sjv]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection

 

[ziggy1104]

Wow, this is really discouraging to hear that my hard work may actually prevent me from acceptance

 

[ziggy1104]

Definitely doesnt help my motivation to ace these finals and the DAT

 

[Glimmer1991]

Wow, this is really discouraging to hear that my hard work may actually prevent me from acceptance

Start showing interest now in LECOM. Try to see if you can talk to someone face-to-face in admissions about your application (what you can do to be better, its strengths and weaknesses, et cetera).

You could also try to volunteer 3-4 hours a week at their clinics.

I would also be 100% transparent that LECOM is your top choice.

 

[Cello]

I know there are medical schools which disregard a top percentage of applicants because the assumption is they'll get in somewhere 'better' so why waste time reviewing their application. I find this to be mildly outrageous because the school took the student's application fee which means they were paid for a service they did not provide...

 

[Glimmer1991]

I know there are medical schools which disregard a top percentage of applicants because the assumption is they'll get in somewhere 'better' so why waste time reviewing their application. I find this to be mildly outrageous because the school took the student's application fee which means they were paid for a service they did not provide...

Yep. I think it's absolute crap, too. Even if you take away how illogical it is, we aren't exactly trying to throw away $75+ at these schools... Shouldn't schools be TRYING to get the best applicants?

It's sort of like the schools that don't offer scholarships to students until AFTER they have paid their deposit. Wow... What a great way to get the best applicants! ~*~*~*not*~*~*~*~

 

[distressstudent]

Definitely doesnt help my motivation to ace these finals and the DAT

So the best applicants are the slightly above average students? I don't think so.

 

[y3nd0]

I haven't heard from BU and Temple... straight up rejected from NYU (thought I'd at least snag an interview there).

I think it definitely happens, especially among large private schools. Why waste time trying to interview an applicant, ESPECIALLY if they have decent stats and come from a state with a dental school in it. High chances are that they will get accepted to their state school, see the high costs of the private school, and run straight back home.
(This is not a jab at those with high stats who interviewed at said private schools.)

 

[bgriff]

Yep. I think it's absolute crap, too. Even if you take away how illogical it is, we aren't exactly trying to throw away $75+ at these schools... Shouldn't schools be TRYING to get the best applicants?

We are applicants once, maybe twice in our lives. So our perception of the admissions process is pretty myopic compared to the admissions committee, which does this year round, every year. If middling, less established schools started out accepting all qualified and "over" qualified applicants, they would quickly see which applicants take their offer and which don't. Eventually, they will realize that it's not worth the hassle of interviewing extra people, putting extra people on waitlists, and then having to come back and grab those people on said waitlist. They will see where your average acceptances fall in line and will budget their time and money accordingly. I see nothing wrong with what is going on here.

This online community makes it a little more transparent to see where applicants fall in line. Sure, as a d-school you definitely want the best, but that's not realistic. Maybe you can get a couple top kids every now and then, but you need to know that you sit relatively high on their list as well. If Jessica Alba messages me for a date, my first thought isn't to go out and buy a suit and schedule a date, it's to find out who's trying to (idiotically) catfish me. If you do this year in and year out, you figure out who's out of your league and you figure out who you can try for. And your goal is to slowly try for higher and higher applicants. But you don't try to hit every ball out of the park.

You're being idealistic, not realistic. I have no problem with the "lower" schools flat out rejecting me. They were right; I got into schools with better reputation/more prestige. And I would have chosen those schools over the ones that rejected me. It was my fault I didn't know where I stood. I don't see it as "wasting" money. I did it for peace of mind. And those schools rightly let me know that I didn't need the peace of mind.

 

[HaverfoodsDDS]

We are applicants once, maybe twice in our lives. So our perception of the admissions process is pretty myopic compared to the admissions committee, which does this year round, every year. If middling, less established schools started out accepting all qualified and "over" qualified applicants, they would quickly see which applicants take their offer and which don't. Eventually, they will realize that it's not worth the hassle of interviewing extra people, putting extra people on waitlists, and then having to come back and grab those people on said waitlist. They will see where your average acceptances fall in line and will budget their time and money accordingly. I see nothing wrong with what is going on here.

This online community makes it a little more transparent to see where applicants fall in line. Sure, as a d-school you definitely want the best, but that's not realistic. Maybe you can get a couple top kids every now and then, but you need to know that you sit relatively high on their list as well. If Jessica Alba messages me for a date, my first thought isn't to go out and buy a suit and schedule a date, it's to find out who's trying to (idiotically) catfish me. If you do this year in and year out, you figure out who's out of your league and you figure out who you can try for. And your goal is to slowly try for higher and higher applicants. But you don't try to hit every ball out of the park.

You're being idealistic, not realistic. I have no problem with the "lower" schools flat out rejecting me. They were right; I got into schools with better reputation/more prestige. And I would have chosen those schools over the ones that rejected me. It was my fault I didn't know where I stood. I don't see it as "wasting" money. I did it for peace of mind. And those schools rightly let me know that I didn't need the peace of mind.

Could not have been said better.

 

[Glimmer1991]

We are applicants once, maybe twice in our lives. So our perception of the admissions process is pretty myopic compared to the admissions committee, which does this year round, every year. If middling, less established schools started out accepting all qualified and "over" qualified applicants, they would quickly see which applicants take their offer and which don't. Eventually, they will realize that it's not worth the hassle of interviewing extra people, putting extra people on waitlists, and then having to come back and grab those people on said waitlist. They will see where your average acceptances fall in line and will budget their time and money accordingly. I see nothing wrong with what is going on here.

This online community makes it a little more transparent to see where applicants fall in line. Sure, as a d-school you definitely want the best, but that's not realistic. Maybe you can get a couple top kids every now and then, but you need to know that you sit relatively high on their list as well. If Jessica Alba messages me for a date, my first thought isn't to go out and buy a suit and schedule a date, it's to find out who's trying to (idiotically) catfish me. If you do this year in and year out, you figure out who's out of your league and you figure out who you can try for. And your goal is to slowly try for higher and higher applicants. But you don't try to hit every ball out of the park.

You're being idealistic, not realistic. I have no problem with the "lower" schools flat out rejecting me. They were right; I got into schools with better reputation/more prestige. And I would have chosen those schools over the ones that rejected me. It was my fault I didn't know where I stood. I don't see it as "wasting" money. I did it for peace of mind. And those schools rightly let me know that I didn't need the peace of mind.

Then they should at least give us our money back if they aren't going to give us a fair shake. Or have the decency to tell such applicants that they aren't being flat-out rejected because of some major flaws in their application.

I still truly don't understand why schools wouldn't want the best applicants. They have merit aid to pull such people in.

If Jessica Alba only had about ~60 men in the world to choose from, maybe it wouldn't be so unrealistic if she wanted a date with you!

 

[shulk]

There are no dental safety schools. Each school fills out its realized niche. Don't think of the schools GPA/DAT numbers as minimums, but rather as guideposts. It is wise to apply mostly to schools that have GPA/DAT averages near your own, not significantly higher or lower.

 

[bgriff]

Then they should at least give us our money back if they aren't going to give us a fair shake. Or have the decency to tell such applicants that they aren't being flat-out rejected because of some major flaws in their application.

I still truly don't understand why schools wouldn't want the best applicants. They have merit aid to pull such people in.

If Jessica Alba only had about ~60 men in the world to choose from, maybe it wouldn't be so unrealistic if she wanted a date with you!

What's your definition of a "fair shake?" Is it to interview you? Because they still had to take a look at your application to deny you. Maybe a computer did it. But it's their computer. The computer gave you a shake. Maybe you think $75 is too much. It probably is. But unless you get enough people to not apply to schools anymore, that price isn't going to change. It'll probably go up with no appreciable change to the number of applicants. Supply and demand.

Are you saying that people who get rejected automatically get their money refunded? What about the people with 17AA and 2.8GPA, no research, and 50 shadowing hours, who apply to Harvard? Should they get their money refunded because they applied? They probably did not get a "fair shake" either.

Each school has thousands of applicants. There's only a few people in the admissions committee who has the duty of contacting directly with students. And you're asking for every school to automatically let you know in detail why you're not in consideration anymore? What do you want to hear? Every school you think you were overqualified for can just say that you did not show sufficient evidence in being interested in their school. You'd be just as satisfied as now. It's getting a little preposterous. Should every girl/guy that turns you down also write a report about why you are no longer in contention for marriage?

I think I did a pretty good explanation of why schools choose the applicants they do. It's not that they don't want the best. It's that they choose to lose out on a small chance at some top applicants in order to streamline their admissions process. I demonstrated how even if you start out with the intention to accept the best and go after the best, you will eventually gravitate towards efficiency.

 

[djd0516]

I had this same experience. I was rejected without an interview to all of the lower tier, safety schools I applied to. On the other hand, I was offered interviews at six really good schools (including Columbia, Maryland, Oregon, UNC). To think that someone can be get accepted to a selective, well respected dental school and rejected from schools like Western and ASDOH seems idiotic. With that being said, I'm glad they didn't offer me an interview because it would have been a waste of time for both of us. I think the most important thing to do if you have competitive stats is to only apply to good schools instead of wasting money with the low stat schools. At the end of the day this trend doesn't really hurt anyone because people with competitive applications tend to get accepted anyway. Also, if LECOM is your top choice out of all the dental schools then you should definitely do some more research.

 

[Glimmer1991]

What's your definition of a "fair shake?" Is it to interview you? Because they still had to take a look at your application to deny you. Maybe a computer did it. But it's their computer. The computer gave you a shake. Maybe you think $75 is too much. It probably is. But unless you get enough people to not apply to schools anymore, that price isn't going to change. It'll probably go up with no appreciable change to the number of applicants. Supply and demand.

Are you saying that people who get rejected automatically get their money refunded? What about the people with 17AA and 2.8GPA, no research, and 50 shadowing hours, who apply to Harvard? Should they get their money refunded because they applied? They probably did not get a "fair shake" either.

Each school has thousands of applicants. There's only a few people in the admissions committee who has the duty of contacting directly with students. And you're asking for every school to automatically let you know in detail why you're not in consideration anymore? What do you want to hear? Every school you think you were overqualified for can just say that you did not show sufficient evidence in being interested in their school. You'd be just as satisfied as now. It's getting a little preposterous. Should every girl/guy that turns you down also write a report about why you are no longer in contention for marriage?

I think I did a pretty good explanation of why schools choose the applicants they do. It's not that they don't want the best. It's that they choose to lose out on a small chance at some top applicants in order to streamline their admissions process. I demonstrated how even if you start out with the intention to accept the best and go after the best, you will eventually gravitate towards efficiency.

You have taken my sentiments and are applying them to absurd situations. Clearly, we are taking about HIGHLY qualified applicants here who are rejected for no fathomable reason other than that they were "too good."

I just know that if I were a school, I wouldn't be flat-out rejecting people who had AWESOME applications. These folks are few and far between, but SDN's users make up quite a few of them. What I would probably do instead is try to "feel them out" and see if they were genuinely interested. If they weren't, I wouldn't extend them an interview--and they'd know why. However, I just wouldn't skip over these folks, as they may genuinely want to attend the school.

There are not thousands of these people. There is only a handful. But, like I said, a lot of them seem to find their way to SDN.

 

[dentalstudentprospect2]

This is scary for applicants who do not really know where they stand.. What if you were a special case like a low GPA high DAT or vice versa?

 

[ziggy1104]

Start showing interest now in LECOM. Try to see if you can talk to someone face-to-face in admissions about your application (what you can do to be better, its strengths and weaknesses, et cetera).

You could also try to volunteer 3-4 hours a week at their clinics.

I would also be 100% transparent that LECOM is your top choice.

thanks, @Glimmer1991 , I am going to give them a call tomorrow. I have asked to volunteer in the clinics, they don't take volunteers for some reason. Hopefully, I can get up there and talk with someone. I think if I can show them I am interested in going to their school, I would have a chance. My main worry is that a computer will weed me out before anyone even looks at me app. Is this something I should be concerned about? Do you think that's an appropriate thing to ask them?

 

[sgv]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tufts syndrome

you can get past the tufts syndrome by contacting the school and expressing interest.

 

[syap]

Maybe your letters or personal statement aren't up to snuff. Or maybe you lack social skills

 

[sacapuntas]

I think it's plausible this happens but I also think people's opinions of themselves may be too high. You aren't entitled to interviews everywhere just because you have stats higher than class averages. Schools don't just take the top X # of students with the highest stats; it's more complicated than that.

 

[ILLchief]

funny how everyone is considering those applicants with "above average" stats as the best candidates.... don't really think that the students with the best stats necessarily make the best applicant let alone the best future dentist.

there is more to a person, rather applicant, than just their GPA and DAT score.

 

[bgriff]

This is scary for applicants who do not really know where they stand.. What if you were a special case like a low GPA high DAT or vice versa?

You try to gauge your stats compared to others that have been competitive and see what the ranges are for schools that you are interested in. But the stats aren't everything. The admissions process is different for every school and it's not like they give you a rubric for each school. You have to apply to a range of schools within your stats. Definitely apply to your state school if you have one. And don't be afraid to apply to a school that you don't think you have a shot at if it's somewhere you really want to go.

And with the number of applicants, low GPA/high DAT and vice versa aren't special cases. There's tons of info around here and that ADEA book that will guide you to the schools you are competitive at. But again, if you show special interest at a school and start a relationship with them early on, you can overcome some stats. I was told to fly out to a particular school before I even applied in order to speak to students, sit in on lectures, get a feel for the area, etc. Some schools let you do this. Some don't. But if you really want to go to X school, make it happen. Provided you hit some baselines for stats, you really can push through some more competitive applicants by showing them you are passionate about the school and you are doing everything you can to be there.

 

[djd0516]

funny how everyone is considering those applicants with "above average" stats as the best candidates.... don't really think that the students with the best stats necessarily make the best applicant let alone the best future dentist.

there is more to a person, rather applicant, than just their GPA and DAT score.

I agree, but I think most people here are referring to above average applications..not just GPA and DAT stats. "Stats" is just an easy way to refer to it (volunteering hours, shadowing hours, blah blah). On the other hand, if students with high GPAs and DAT scores didn't make better applicants then why would schools continue to use these as selection factors? People on SDN notoriously undermine the importance of GPA. Keeping a very high GPA through years of difficult science courses requires a tremendous amount of work. Far more work than studying for the DAT, volunteering, or shadowing.

 

[Cello]

What's your definition of a "fair shake?" Is it to interview you? Because they still had to take a look at your application to deny you. Maybe a computer did it. But it's their computer. The computer gave you a shake. Maybe you think $75 is too much. It probably is. But unless you get enough people to not apply to schools anymore, that price isn't going to change. It'll probably go up with no appreciable change to the number of applicants. Supply and demand.

Are you saying that people who get rejected automatically get their money refunded? What about the people with 17AA and 2.8GPA, no research, and 50 shadowing hours, who apply to Harvard? Should they get their money refunded because they applied? They probably did not get a "fair shake" either.

Each school has thousands of applicants. There's only a few people in the admissions committee who has the duty of contacting directly with students. And you're asking for every school to automatically let you know in detail why you're not in consideration anymore? What do you want to hear? Every school you think you were overqualified for can just say that you did not show sufficient evidence in being interested in their school. You'd be just as satisfied as now. It's getting a little preposterous. Should every girl/guy that turns you down also write a report about why you are no longer in contention for marriage?

I think I did a pretty good explanation of why schools choose the applicants they do. It's not that they don't want the best. It's that they choose to lose out on a small chance at some top applicants in order to streamline their admissions process. I demonstrated how even if you start out with the intention to accept the best and go after the best, you will eventually gravitate towards efficiency.

Or, rather than keeping it a big secret, the schools just could come out honestly and say "if you find yourself in this range of GPAs and DAT scores we auto reject you so don't bother applying here." The University of Utah medical school does. They admit that they auto-reject the top 10% of applicants, so if you have a 4.0GPA and a 38 MCAT you know not to waste your time applying there. There is simply no defending an organization which takes people's money and does nothing in return for it.

Part of the reason you pay the application fee is to offset the cost and burden of having those few admissions committee representatives review your application. That's also their job.

It's like trying to defend UC Irvine's med school for taking OOS application fees even though they don't accept out of state students. It's simply wrong.

funny how everyone is considering those applicants with "above average" stats as the best candidates.... don't really think that the students with the best stats necessarily make the best applicant let alone the best future dentist.

there is more to a person, rather applicant, than just their GPA and DAT score.

While this is true, a lot of schools auto-reject based on those criteria.

 

[Glimmer1991]

I agree, but I think most people here are referring to above average applications..not just GPA and DAT stats. "Stats" is just an easy way to refer to it (volunteering hours, shadowing hours, blah blah). On the other hand, if students with high GPAs and DAT scores didn't make better applicants then why would schools continue to use these as selection factors? People on SDN notoriously undermine the importance of GPA. Keeping a very high GPA through years of difficult science courses requires a tremendous amount of work. Far more work than studying for the DAT, volunteering, or shadowing.

Precisely! Of course, it is easiest to compare GPA/DAT because those are hard numbers, but I (and others) are talking about the best applicants. (I know I said that exact phrase earlier, LOL!) There are many things on an application that are hard to quantify with numbers, but you can still tell how strong of an applicant a person is by them.

I know people who have been told, point-blank, that they have OUTSTANDING applications but have still gotten the silent treatment from certain schools. Not all of these people had absolutely "perfect" numbers--because those are NOT the only thing--but they were just all-around awesome and were well within (and usually above) the accepted ranges for various parts of their application.

I am NOT just using myself as a basis for what I'm saying. Really. I have seen this happen to many others on SDN over my past two years here, though. I just can't explain it.

@syap: Very true, but it's hard for a school to gauge social skills without having interviewed an applicant--we are talking about people here who were flat-out rejected. Bad letters could be possible, but surely this is a very rare occurrence... And wouldn't people with bad letters run into problems with other schools?

A friend from last cycle was accepted to Harvard but never heard a peep from NYU. Seriously?

Why has @wazian2018 had trouble with multiple schools? Her "hard numbers" are THROUGH THE ROOF, and the rest of her application is just as outstanding. She has received scholarships to some of the best schools in the nation, but other schools have been so weird to her. Also, from reading her posts on here, I can tell she is a very level-headed, "normal" person who doesn't lack social skills.

Why in the world has @tandem7 had issues with schools? I know her personally and her application is one of the best I have ever witnessed. And, let's be real, she's a successful lawyer--you know everything on her application was not only phenomenal, but also extremely professional.

It's an odd phenomenon. That's great that some med schools are transparent about this.

Also... Sure, people can overvalue themselves. At the same time, as a generalization, the perfectionists I've met in life tend to be the most critical of themselves. Not everyone lacks self-awareness. Furthermore, some people seek out many opinions of their application before submitting to try to fine-tune them as much as possible. And some people seek out opinions eve after they have been rejected to try to see what they can improve. I don't think anyone here feels entitled, but they may feel like they weren't exactly given a fair chance. I don't think that's so crazy or wrong.

As a slight aside, I'm going to just level with everyone. This is an online forum. Hardly anyone here knows me. What do I have to gain from trying to prove how "good" my application was with others? Nothing--so I'm not going to. I know what my application was like. Members of various admissions committees know what my application looks like. All I will say is that I got some really great feedback, and I was accepted to ECU, which is known for having an EXTREMELY HOLISTIC application review.

I get a lot of flack on this website--and I'm really not sure why--but I stay the course because I'm here to help others. You can assume I'm some sort of a socially-awkward being who clearly has illusions of grandeur when it comes to herself. However, that isn't me. I'm not here to prove anything about myself, and I think that if anyone takes a quick look at my thousands of posts, that becomes apparent. I have already gotten into dental school. I really don't have much more "need" for this website. I just figure that maybe I can help others get to the place where I am, and that seems like a worthwhile cause to me.

However, this is a real thing that happens, regardless of whether everyone really believes it, and I am trying to spread awareness. Maybe it's one of those things that you don't truly understand unless you have been on the receiving end of it--which is unfortunate--and then come out successful on the other side. It's easy to point a finger at the people who this happens to and say, "Ah! I'm sure their applications were actually totally lame and the only thing they had going for them was a DAT score." Well, think that if you'd like. I simply know that for the people I have talked to, this is FAR from being the case. And, seriously, what do people have to gain from SHARING their experiences about this? What do they have to gain? It's slightly embarrassing and disheartening, after all. However, from what I've seen, the people on SDN with the best all-around applications tend to be the most helpful. You guys are awesome. Don't let the muck pull you down.

Oh well! We can all disagree about this, and that's fine. However, I'm sure I'll be on here next year, trying to advise and comfort a handful of applicants who didn't receive interviews for mysterious and sometimes unfathomable reasons.

I just know I wasn't fully aware of this phenomenon before this year, and it seemed to slap quite a few people in the face. I just want to spread awareness so that the handful of people that this applies to next cycle don't lose sleep over it. It all works out!!

 

[SerboDent]

Like many people on here I was rejected without an interview from some schools, while I was accepted to better schools. I don't think it's bc stats were high, but more of a geographic factor. I've heard that schools consider people geographically closer...prob more likely to attend if accepted.

 

[doc toothache]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/rejections-the-why.875430/
Maybe wearing a 4.0/30 badge doesn't entitle one to auto admission.

I know there are medical schools which disregard a top percentage of applicants because the assumption is they'll get in somewhere 'better' so why waste time reviewing their application. I find this to be mildly outrageous because the school took the student's application fee which means they were paid for a service they did not provide...

Keep in mind, however, that 8.4% of medical school applicants with 3.8-4.0 gpa and 39-45 MCAT score fail to an gain acceptance to any medical school in the country.
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/ (Table 24)

I personally was rejected w/o interview from BU, ASDOH, and Midwestern-AZ and from Western post-interview with a 4.0+ and a 22DAT (Accepted to UCLA, UCSF, Penn, Michigan, USC), and had a friend who was rejected w/o interview from LECOM, Roseman, Western, NYU and BU even though he was accepted at Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, and UCSF....If you have unusually high #'s it's probably wise to not apply to some of those expensive and less-established schools because unless you make it extremely evident in your application that you are strongly considering them, they know that you will have other (and better) options on the table....

Your theory might have some credence were it not for the fact that the schools you mentioned accepted students with much higher DAT scores than yours.

Yep. I think it's absolute crap, too. Even if you take away how illogical it is, we aren't exactly trying to throw away $75+ at these schools... Shouldn't schools be TRYING to get the best applicants? It's sort of like the schools that don't offer scholarships to students until AFTER they have paid their deposit. Wow... What a great way to get the best applicants! ~*~*~*not*~*~*~*~

The schools did get the "best applicants", but your definition and theirs do not appear to be carbon copies.

 

[Glimmer1991]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/rejections-the-why.875430/
Maybe wearing a 4.0/30 badge doesn't entitle one to auto admission.

As it totally shouldn't.

However, we are talking here about people not even getting interviews. Once again, nobody is entitled to anything. However, objectively, certain things don't make much sense.

 

[doc toothache]

As it totally shouldn't.

However, we are talking here about people not even getting interviews. Once again, nobody is entitled to anything. However, objectively, certain things don't make much sense.

C'est la vie!

 

[hitmans45]

This sounds plausable, but I can't understand how people are saying this is fact with such certainty. But as long as the ones in favor of this theory can entertain the idea that they didn't get an interview invite from NYU/USC/Lecombecause the school just plain didn't want them, I can respect your argument.

 

[dieanotherday]

there needs to be a system built into the app process that lets you buy insurance for your app cycle
if you dont get in anywhere because you didnt meet requirements it should be hard coded into the system to auto-reject your $$ and not even let you submit
so at the very least you don't waste money for being stupid/not good enough in the first place

it wouldnt even be hard to code/write the software attachment for this to the portal
and if you get in no where but you bought insurance for your app cycle then you should be entitled to like half of it back
applying to grad schools is like a big gamble really
they do it for black jack i think they should do it for these app processes

 

[distressstudent]

^ that's like literally admitting that it is a crapshoot. For all PR purposes, that's unlikely to even be considered to be implemented. lol

My personal theory is that they don't auto reject people. Rather, most schools want a "diverse class size". Applications are reviewed on a first come first serve basis, and once they reach a certain quota then they stop accepting a particular paradigm of students unless he or she is really unique for that particular school. After a certain point it isn't about how competitive of a student you are, it is about how unique you are. But obviously uniqueness can only go so far too because no school is going to save a spot and wait for that 3.0, 18 DAT "i cured cancer" applicant.

So yeah. I think some dental schools priorities are:
1. developing an unique class size where each individual offers something different to the school/community
2. bringing in the best applicants

I mean that's the whole idea behind turn in your application early, right? (and that's also why people say that if you meet your doppelganger, you will die. there can only be oneeeee)

 

[dieanotherday]

^ that's like literally admitting that it is a crapshoot. For all PR purposes, that's unlikely to even be considered to be implemented. lol

My personal theory is that they don't auto reject people. Rather, most schools want a "diverse class size". Applications are reviewed on a first come first serve basis, and once they reach a certain quota then they stop accepting a particular paradigm of students unless he or she is really unique for that particular school. After a certain point it isn't about how competitive of a student you are, it is about how unique you are. But obviously uniqueness can only go so far too because no school is going to save a spot and wait for that 3.0, 18 DAT "i cured cancer" applicant.

So yeah. I think some dental schools priorities are:
1. developing an unique class size where each individual offers something different to the school/community
2. bringing in the best applicants

I mean that's the whole idea behind turn in your application early, right? (and that's also why people say that if you meet your doppelganger, you will die. there can only be oneeeee)

I don't think that its a crapshoot but I do think that there are numerous applications that are auto-rejected once theyre submitted
if you don't have a 3.0 for any grad school which is the minimum requirement the portal shouldn't collect your $$
they should at the very least calculate your gpa when you turn in the official transcripts first before letting you submit your app
some schools send out supplementaries right after you submit regardless of if you fit their specific school requirements or not, at that point there should be a second part of the portal that auto screens for each school's specific requirements like do you have that 3rd letter from a sci professor? (columbia) do you have that spiritual letter? (loma linda) do you have a letter from general dentist?(most schools)
and if not they shouldn't even send you a supplementary

if people's scores dont meet specific dat cut offs for each schools, why bother sending out supplementaries? to make $$? come on, tuition/fees is enough

i would rather be told right from the get go when i try to submit that there is no chance for me don't even bother

theres got to be a certain number of people who apply and dont get a single interview because they were not coming up to the bare minimum requirements for their applications, and thats just a waste of $$. if you aren't good enough to get in, why should it be such an expensive lesson when your shortcomings can be told to you simply through some implementations through software? at the very least you can save that $$ AND TIME and spend it on a postbac for that year

 

[distressstudent]

oh okay. you meant minimum requirement. I was thinking something different. Can't blame me because everyone else is talking about schools rejecting HIGH stats
but yeah I totally see your point and I agree with you on that point for the ones who are auto rejected on the basis of minimum requirement. there SHOULD be a system like that given that we are using an electronic medium to submit the apps.

But having an insurance system won't really work out the way it would be intended( to me thinks). For applicants who don't think they can get in, then it really will be like playing blackjack... It incentivize people to submit their application even if they themselves dont think they are ready yet. I don't think that's an idea that people would be very fond of.

Better yet, students who were waitlisted to their schools and didn't get in should be kept on file. And when they apply again next cycle, they should be exempt from fees for their waitlisted schools and still have their updated profile reviewed. That seems the most fair to me. It wouldn't really decentivize schools from using a waitlist either because it is too important for the schools to not use.

 

[hitmans45]

I don't think that its a crapshoot but I do think that there are numerous applications that are auto-rejected once theyre submitted
if you don't have a 3.0 for any grad school which is the minimum requirement the portal shouldn't collect your $$
they should at the very least calculate your gpa when you turn in the official transcripts first before letting you submit your app
some schools send out supplementaries right after you submit regardless of if you fit their specific school requirements or not, at that point there should be a second part of the portal that auto screens for each school's specific requirements like do you have that 3rd letter from a sci professor? (columbia) do you have that spiritual letter? (loma linda) do you have a letter from general dentist?(most schools)
and if not they shouldn't even send you a supplementary

if people's scores dont meet specific dat cut offs for each schools, why bother sending out supplementaries? to make $$? come on, tuition/fees is enough

i would rather be told right from the get go when i try to submit that there is no chance for me don't even bother

theres got to be a certain number of people who apply and dont get a single interview because they were not coming up to the bare minimum requirements for their applications, and thats just a waste of $$. if you aren't good enough to get in, why should it be such an expensive lesson when your shortcomings can be told to you simply through some implementations through software? at the very least you can save that $$ AND TIME and spend it on a postbac for that year

I think you mentioned the most realistic way to improve the app process. It's the secondaries. They should only be offered to those who would be genuinely considered. I was actually surprised to find that many schools asked for secondaries as soon as you submitted on AADSAS. It screams scam! That is the most obvious sign of being ripped off. Some advice that my pops told me that I'd like to share with my SDN family, "Never trust anyone who asks for money up front." This usually pertains to dealing with paying for services and "opportunities" instead of just plain old physical products. I know its a bit of a stretch to apply this to the app process, but when you feel ripped off you're probably right.

 

[djd0516]

I don't think that its a crapshoot but I do think that there are numerous applications that are auto-rejected once theyre submitted
if you don't have a 3.0 for any grad school which is the minimum requirement the portal shouldn't collect your $$
they should at the very least calculate your gpa when you turn in the official transcripts first before letting you submit your app
some schools send out supplementaries right after you submit regardless of if you fit their specific school requirements or not, at that point there should be a second part of the portal that auto screens for each school's specific requirements like do you have that 3rd letter from a sci professor? (columbia) do you have that spiritual letter? (loma linda) do you have a letter from general dentist?(most schools)
and if not they shouldn't even send you a supplementary

if people's scores dont meet specific dat cut offs for each schools, why bother sending out supplementaries? to make $$? come on, tuition/fees is enough

i would rather be told right from the get go when i try to submit that there is no chance for me don't even bother

theres got to be a certain number of people who apply and dont get a single interview because they were not coming up to the bare minimum requirements for their applications, and thats just a waste of $$. if you aren't good enough to get in, why should it be such an expensive lesson when your shortcomings can be told to you simply through some implementations through software? at the very least you can save that $$ AND TIME and spend it on a postbac for that year

I agree that a lot of schools are totally ripping people off, but I'm not sure they should refund money or refuse to accept your application if you're missing a critical component. If someone neglects to include a spiritual letter to Loma Linda or a 3rd science letter for Columbia then that is their own fault, because they obviously didn't read the application requirements which are made clear for each school by the ADEA. The same goes for people applying with a 2.5 GPA and 17 DAT. They should realize that their scores aren't acceptable for most schools and understand that they will likely lose their money. On the other hand, I do think that it's idiotic and misleading that a lot of schools send everyone a supplemental application (even the 2.5 GPA or incomplete app student). Why would they want to review even more application material on students they know they will not admit? Hard to say. But then again, why do dental schools do half of the **** they do?

 

[dieanotherday]

I agree that a lot of schools are totally ripping people off, but I'm not sure they should refund money or refuse to accept your application if you're missing a critical component. If someone neglects to include a spiritual letter to Loma Linda or a 3rd science letter for Columbia then that is their own fault, because they obviously didn't read the application requirements which are made clear for each school by the ADEA. The same goes for people applying with a 2.5 GPA and 17 DAT. They should realize that their scores aren't acceptable for most schools and understand that they will likely lose their money. On the other hand, I do think that it's idiotic and misleading that a lot of schools send everyone a supplemental application (even the 2.5 GPA or incomplete app student). Why would they want to review even more application material on students they know they will not admit? Hard to say. But then again, why do dental schools do half of the **** they do?

But the thing is those applicants DONT realize that their scores are unacceptable. They should be given a hard dose of reality up front instead of having to wait a whole application cycle while also being out however much $$ from primaries and supplementaries. The only real good advice I ever took was from people on SDN because my family and friends don't understand this process and at the beginning I understood very little of it. Through all the encouragement and my unfortunately not too educated family was telling me to just try again, something was seriously wrong. Some people need to be told hey, you're never going to be anything with those kind of grades and scores dont bother applying this cycle until you improve.

When I first posted on here, my PAT score was a 13 and before that I didn't realize how much 1 part of a whole test could hold be back until OHSU literally sent me an email tellng me I better retake to get any further into their admissions process. There's a lot of misleading information out there when you are trying to find out for yourself and just randomly talking to random undergrad counselors who have no idea what you're going through, who better to tell you than the website itself?

 

[bgriff]

But the thing is those applicants DONT realize that their scores are unacceptable. They should be given a hard dose of reality up front instead of having to wait a whole application cycle while also being out however much $$ from primaries and supplementaries. The only real good advice I ever took was from people on SDN because my family and friends don't understand this process and at the beginning I understood very little of it. Through all the encouragement and my unfortunately not too educated family was telling me to just try again, something was seriously wrong. Some people need to be told hey, you're never going to be anything with those kind of grades and scores dont bother applying this cycle until you improve.

When I first posted on here, my PAT score was a 13 and before that I didn't realize how much 1 part of a whole test could hold be back until OHSU literally sent me an email tellng me I better retake to get any further into their admissions process. There's a lot of misleading information out there when you are trying to find out for yourself and just randomly talking to random undergrad counselors who have no idea what you're going through, who better to tell you than the website itself?

You don't have to wait the whole application cycle. All you have to do if you want to know is call or email the admissions committee and ask. Also, the ADEA book has been out there for a while. It shows you the pertinent stats. It shows you the median test scores of those who got accepted. You can see how many applicants apply and how many get in. On the ADEA website you can see the breakdown on DAT scores. You even get a percentile right after you take the test.

Again, you can call the schools. Some are curt and some more verbose, but they let you know if you are competitive and if you are not. I have called many schools asking about their stance on community credits vs state colleges vs universities. They tell me right when I call. I've called schools I was interested in for a lot of things. I've emailed them and asked about how they rank this or that. When I was practicing my DAT, I called them up about cutoffs and what they prioritize. They will tell you about certain cutoffs they have in regards to DAT scores. The information is available, you just have to go get it instead of asking your family and friends (with no experience). The schools get thousands of applications. They do not have time to send customized letters back to the many students that do not meet their requirements. You are asking for something from them. They are not asking of anything from you. I feel that the onus to "feel" where you stand is on you, not the school.

You said you came in with little knowledge of the process. But instead of asking dentists who have been there, students who have gone through it, you chose to listen to unsolicited advice from your family and friends that have no experience in the process? The websites tell you the average scores. You can ascertain the percentiles through ADEA. You can see your own percentile staring back at you. No, the school's don't have a handy little calculator on the website to see if you can get in. The level of ambiguity for admissions exists and will continue to exist becuase people are different. They like to not have lines to chop people up because there are exceptions. The ASDOH dean told me to my face that their minimum GPA was 2.8, but they still let a person in with a GPA below that. It was probably due to a compelling back story or something that explains the low GPA. At this stage of the game, you have to realize that things aren't black and white and other people will not separate these things into black and white for you. You are responsible for getting the information you need. The schools don't list the information because they want the flexibility in not having it listed. And as you go through dschool and life, you'll see that most things aren't sitting there for you to digest in easy formats. You're going to have to search for it and convert it to something you can internalize. Lines aren't lines if you understand where they are coming from and why they are there. The faster you understand this the better off you're going to be.

 

[dieanotherday]

You don't have to wait the whole application cycle. All you have to do if you want to know is call or email the admissions committee and ask. Also, the ADEA book has been out there for a while. It shows you the pertinent stats. It shows you the median test scores of those who got accepted. You can see how many applicants apply and how many get in. On the ADEA website you can see the breakdown on DAT scores. You even get a percentile right after you take the test.

Again, you can call the schools. Some are curt and some more verbose, but they let you know if you are competitive and if you are not. I have called many schools asking about their stance on community credits vs state colleges vs universities. They tell me right when I call. I've called schools I was interested in for a lot of things. I've emailed them and asked about how they rank this or that. When I was practicing my DAT, I called them up about cutoffs and what they prioritize. They will tell you about certain cutoffs they have in regards to DAT scores. The information is available, you just have to go get it instead of asking your family and friends (with no experience). The schools get thousands of applications. They do not have time to send customized letters back to the many students that do not meet their requirements. You are asking for something from them. They are not asking of anything from you. I feel that the onus to "feel" where you stand is on you, not the school.

You said you came in with little knowledge of the process. But instead of asking dentists who have been there, students who have gone through it, you chose to listen to unsolicited advice from your family and friends that have no experience in the process? The websites tell you the average scores. You can ascertain the percentiles through ADEA. You can see your own percentile staring back at you. No, the school's don't have a handy little calculator on the website to see if you can get in. The level of ambiguity for admissions exists and will continue to exist becuase people are different. They like to not have lines to chop people up because there are exceptions. The ASDOH dean told me to my face that their minimum GPA was 2.8, but they still let a person in with a GPA below that. It was probably due to a compelling back story or something that explains the low GPA. At this stage of the game, you have to realize that things aren't black and white and other people will not separate these things into black and white for you. You are responsible for getting the information you need. The schools don't list the information because they want the flexibility in not having it listed. And as you go through dschool and life, you'll see that most things aren't sitting there for you to digest in easy formats. You're going to have to search for it and convert it to something you can internalize. Lines aren't lines if you understand where they are coming from and why they are there. The faster you understand this the better off you're going to be.

I think you are being extremely harsh to what I wrote here
A simple search online or even asking your general dentist might not give you the best and most pertinent information to the application process the way it is now
I've only been on SDN for about a year and before that in undergrad, I sought advice by going to career centers, bio dept advisers and college advisors on campus who in my specific experience weren't extremely helpful but that was their role and job for the school, to advise and be there for students in their specific career path, and thats what was available during my undergrad career

Not all colleges/ccs are created alike and not all dentists and students that I came across were as helpful as they could have been, and on a major part it was my fault because I didn't know what to ask. If I didn't discover SDN I would not have gotten any acceptances this cycle and this was my first time applying. It was extremely lucky for me to stumble upon this online community in which many questions I didn't even think of were already answered. Not everyone in the app process is as well informed or as knowledgeable as you are and I commend you for being able to seek out information and know who and where to get it from as well as specific questions to ask before you even got started. I am simply saying it would be an easy feature to implement on the online application to calculate a gpa before hand and to only send out secondaries/supplementaries to those seriously considered so that it would not be a waste of $$ for us applicants.

 

[Ferneezy]

It's the secondaries. They should only be offered to those who would be genuinely considered. I was actually surprised to find that many schools asked for secondaries as soon as you submitted on AADSAS. It screams scam!

consider this: the money you pay initially is for the adea, through the aadsas, to compile your information as an applicant in a clean, digestible format for consumption by your dental schools of interest. that money helps the adea pay for the bandwidth to transmit your files, the employees you speak to on june 1st seconds after e-submission to ask which batch you're in, the lease for their office (the K street corridor is prime real estate), and a host of other things. the money you pay each school, their respective "application fees", are likely appointed the same way. even if a school has a formulaic way of choosing interview candidates, and that decision is made either by computer or by person, those are school-specific resources that need to be paid for.

might want to remember that when you're out there as an owner/practitioner.

"Never trust anyone who asks for money up front." This usually pertains to dealing with paying for services and "opportunities" instead of just plain old physical products.

haha you really should remember ^^that^^ when you're out there as an owner/practitioner.

 

[dieanotherday]

Okay I can see that now. With the way image processing has advanced though they could at the very least calculate your GPA from your official transcripts before you pay for $$$$ application.

And for med school apps only select individuals get secondaries not everyone who submits

 

[hitmans45]

consider this: the money you pay initially is for the adea, through the aadsas, to compile your information as an applicant in a clean, digestible format for consumption by your dental schools of interest. that money helps the adea pay for the bandwidth to transmit your files, the employees you speak to on june 1st seconds after e-submission to ask which batch you're in, the lease for their office (the K street corridor is prime real estate), and a host of other things. the money you pay each school, their respective "application fees", are likely appointed the same way. even if a school has a formulaic way of choosing interview candidates, and that decision is made either by computer or by person, those are school-specific resources that need to be paid for.

might want to remember that when you're out there as an owner/practitioner.



haha you really should remember ^^that^^ when you're out there as an owner/practitioner.

Hahaha. I did say it was a stretch trying to apply it to the application process. But I think with insurance/copay and receiving bills after the work is done, its a little different than just straight asking for money upfront. With the outrages tuition being paid and the money being made from patients seen by D3's & D4's as well as all their other sources of income, secondary fees seem like a drop in the bucket. But then again they are a business first, which means profit = good and my individual opinion/feelings = jack ****. Just because they could afford to not charge fees doesn't make it the smart thing to do (for them).

In conclusion, milk milk lemonade around the corner fudge is made.