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Scramble Advice
- Thread starter leorl
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I'm a D.O senior, took both COMLEX and USMLE With scores mid 200's. Good grades, Letters of Recommendations, and an encouraging letter from my #1 ranked program where I did audition rotation. F in didn't match anywhere. Never in a million years did I expect this! Scrambled into a preliminary Surgery spot.
What are my chances of landing an OB Gyn catagorical program next year?
The thought of going through this all over again next year absolutely terrifies me
Your chances next year will depend upon what you do differently. If you make your application more competitive (by doing rotations that impress people, getting better LOR's, etc) or if you apply more broadly to less competitive programs or a less competitive field, then you might get a spot. You also could apply in the DO match, something to highly consider for next year. A surgical prelim by itself will not impress, it's what you do with it that matters. Also remember that you will need time to interview, not easy in a surgery program.
Sadly, it may all be about the Step 1 fail. When a field gets competitive enough, PD's look for ways to weed out applicants, and failing a step (or getting below some cutoff) are common ways of doing so. FP is definitely less competitive than OB, and is certainly worth a try.
Standardized exams will be a part of your future forever. Not "good at them" is not an acceptable excuse. Get better at them. If you've got poor test taking skills, then work on that. In my experience, the most common reason that someone does badly on a standardized exam is that they don't know the material well. Read!
Hi aPD,
Thanks for your valuable advice.
My question is if one fails to match - how does one get access to her/his LORs for sending to programs? My understanding is that as most candidates have waived off their rights to see LORs, it would be hard to obtain them.
In that case how to send LORs to programs? Generally, we may get just 2, 3 days leadtime and in that short time it may be very hard to get copies directly from the attendings/professors even if we approach them.
Does the school staff fax or email documents? It appears not to be so from your write up. Pleasse guide. Thanks.
mt
Thanks for your valuable advice.
My question is if one fails to match - how does one get access to her/his LORs for sending to programs? My understanding is that as most candidates have waived off their rights to see LORs, it would be hard to obtain them.
In that case how to send LORs to programs? Generally, we may get just 2, 3 days leadtime and in that short time it may be very hard to get copies directly from the attendings/professors even if we approach them.
Does the school staff fax or email documents? It appears not to be so from your write up. Pleasse guide. Thanks.
mt
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ERAS allows you to apply to 30 programs in the scramble. This allows you to send your letters directly to programs.
If you're a USMG, your dean's office will have all of your letters (since they uploaded them to ERAS). They can fax them for you.
IMG's often keep copies of their letters. Waiving your right means that you have no legal right to demand a copy of your letter. Nothing stops the letter writer from giving you a copy if they want.
If you're a USMG, your dean's office will have all of your letters (since they uploaded them to ERAS). They can fax them for you.
IMG's often keep copies of their letters. Waiving your right means that you have no legal right to demand a copy of your letter. Nothing stops the letter writer from giving you a copy if they want.
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Is there any benefit to applying to AOA internships, going on a few interviews, and NOT ranking them (not participating in the AOA match), in case you need to scramble for one of these positions post-ACGME match? What if you apply to a few places and then decline interview invites? Would there be a benefit to them having your documents on file already in case you try to scramble after the ACGME Match?
The process is not ideal. There are a couple of AOA TRI's that I would consider, but not as my #1. As such, I have to let them drop to the (very) bottom of the list (as in, potentially scramble 1 month after the AOA match), to maintain my ability to match at my top PGY-1 choices and at categorical ACGME programs.
My understanding is that many of these traditional rotating internships do not fill, and being up-front with these PD's about your plans lets them know of your potential interest in their program if they have availability.
Looking at aPD's advice above, it sounds like you can just send in your info later. Is this true for AOA programs after the ACGME match as well?
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So, in other words, not really worth going to these interviews/ranking them?
I wouldn't want to rank a TRI spot (albeit at a favorable spot) just to end up getting booted from the MD match. That's ******ed.
I wouldn't want to rank a TRI spot (albeit at a favorable spot) just to end up getting booted from the MD match. That's ******ed.
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I wouldn't do that. They'll probably be offended that you applied but didn't want to rank them. It will seem like you were wasting their time.
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You could consider contacting TRI's in the DO scramble before the NRMP results come out. You'd only want to contact 1 or 2 top choices, tell them that if you don't get a spot in the NRMP match that you'd like a TRI instead. No promises on either end -- they shouldn't save a spot for you. Agree with the above that interviewing and purposefully not matching will not generate many friends.
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I'm applying for a competitive field, and I've accepted the fact that my chance of matching is slim.
If I try to scramble for IM and/or FP, do I need to write a personal statement for each?
Is scrambling better than matching into something I don't really like?
I was surprised to see that in 2010 there were unmatched positions in neurosurg, gen surg, urosurg, and radiology. My board scores are pretty average. Will I have a chance to scramble into one of those?
Would a PD prefer not having a resident than having a not-so-competitive resident?
Thanks.
If I try to scramble for IM and/or FP, do I need to write a personal statement for each?
Is scrambling better than matching into something I don't really like?
I was surprised to see that in 2010 there were unmatched positions in neurosurg, gen surg, urosurg, and radiology. My board scores are pretty average. Will I have a chance to scramble into one of those?
Would a PD prefer not having a resident than having a not-so-competitive resident?
Thanks.
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For this year's scramble, not really. Things happen quickly in the scramble, and not many PD's will really care about seeing your PS. Then again, someone might ask and then you'd better have one. So -- yes, you should have one but don't be surprised if no one asks to see it.
Next year, when we have SOAP, the answer is absolutely yes.
I don't really understand the question. Matching or scrambling into a field you don't like is not a good idea. If you like field A but are willing to do field B, you're better off applying to both via the match and ranking both (although you do lose the chance to scramble into field A if you do this)
Of course you have a chance. Just not a big chance. There were 2 open surgery spots, and 3 NS spots, and 2 rad spots. Thousands of people are trying to get them. Students unmatched at those programs will likely get first consideration. Planning your life around a few open spots like this is bad planning.
PD's will fill their spots. Many of the residents in the scramble are of similar caliber to those taken in the match -- it's just that they didn;t apply to enough programs or decided not to rank enough, or simply screwed things up.
I am almost sure that I woulds not match this year,
Is using commercial services (Electronic Residency,..etc) to send scramble emails with url to my info page going to be beneficial for me, also those commercial services say that they can send emails with the link for my info a couple of weeks before the scramble day to all residency programs in US for IM/FM for instance. I am nor sure if this is not Match violation for this years match.
Is using commercial services (Electronic Residency,..etc) to send scramble emails with url to my info page going to be beneficial for me, also those commercial services say that they can send emails with the link for my info a couple of weeks before the scramble day to all residency programs in US for IM/FM for instance. I am nor sure if this is not Match violation for this years match.
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No.
Well...I guess it's beneficial to whoever you're giving your money to spam PDs around the country with. But for you, no.
How does the scramble work this year 2011, Do you fax you applications like before or do you just send them through ERAS like your original application?
Also does anyone know who went through the scramble know how many IM scramble positions their typically are for both AOA and ACGME programs, and is it tough for an AOA student to match into those similarly to a FMG?
I am in the dilemma of having interviewed at both osteopathic and allopathic IM programs. I am a little below average in class rank, not the best board scores, only took COMLEX which I realize was a mistake, good letters, honors in IM and leadership positions. I had some good interviews at both, but never was offered a pre-match from allopathic program. I would likely be able to match into some osteopathic programs, but I would much rather train at a few ACGME programs. Was told by one ACGME program that I would be "ranked high" but was pretty vague otherwise. Also I only interviewed at 4 ACGME programs. Not sure if I should go all out for ACGME risk not matching and go through the scramble or not
Does anyone have any experience going through this process?
Thanks
Also does anyone know who went through the scramble know how many IM scramble positions their typically are for both AOA and ACGME programs, and is it tough for an AOA student to match into those similarly to a FMG?
I am in the dilemma of having interviewed at both osteopathic and allopathic IM programs. I am a little below average in class rank, not the best board scores, only took COMLEX which I realize was a mistake, good letters, honors in IM and leadership positions. I had some good interviews at both, but never was offered a pre-match from allopathic program. I would likely be able to match into some osteopathic programs, but I would much rather train at a few ACGME programs. Was told by one ACGME program that I would be "ranked high" but was pretty vague otherwise. Also I only interviewed at 4 ACGME programs. Not sure if I should go all out for ACGME risk not matching and go through the scramble or not
Does anyone have any experience going through this process?
Thanks
Hi all,
I'm after the same answer as this post, would really appreciate someone letting me know or pointing me in the right direction to find this out.
Also, should you make a match rank list if you didn't get any interviews?
Would I get more replies if I start a new thread?
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Primarily through ERAS although it still works the same, first come, first served. Next year is when the real changes come.
You can, but per a recent aPD post in response to this same question, all you need to do is register for the Match (and then not match) in order to have access to the scramble list.
Please dont do that. There are plenty of other threads about this. Instead of another thread, try a search.
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About the scramble, I'm a little confused about how I would fax/email my application to programs, specifically, about how one sends their documents. Letter's of recommendation, for instance, are on file at my school but I don't have them. Same for transcripts, board scores, etc. Can anyone who is intimately familiar with the process elaborate on this?
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You just re-send ERAS to them, just like you did when you initially applied. When you do that, it sends all your transcripts, board scores, and letters along with it.
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I realize that you can do this for the first 30, but after that you must do it on your own. Regardless, I certainly hope it never comes to that. Anyone who has been through the process?
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I DID go through the process.
I'm not just talking out of my a** here. And that is what I did.IMHO, there is honestly no point in applying to more than 30 programs when you are scrambling unless you are an FMG with poor scores.
For one, if you originally applied to a fairly competitive specialty, there will probably be less than 30 programs with openings. Ortho had, like, 1 opening the year I applied. OB/gyn had 6.
Second, you cannot cold-call more than 30 programs. It's a very time-consuming process, and trying to juggle more than 30 programs is counter productive.
Finally, if you originally applied to a NON competitive specialty and did not match, then it is highly doubtful that shot-gunning your application across more than 30 programs will increase your chances any.
You can apply to 30 programs during the Scramble, but you must be SMART about it. You have to pick which 30 programs you think will be high yield.
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Agree in full.
Also, if you're a US grad, your Dean's office will have copies of all of your LOR's. So, if you really do need to fax them somewhere, they will do so for you.
DO's and IMG's often end up getting copies of their letters.
Also, if you're a US grad, your Dean's office will have copies of all of your LOR's. So, if you really do need to fax them somewhere, they will do so for you.
DO's and IMG's often end up getting copies of their letters.
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I just read somewhere that sending all documents at once to a program without them asking for it first is considered fax solicitation and not allowed and that we should initially send just a cover sheet with a summary of our application like scores, etc. and wait for the program to ask us to send in the rest of our application.
is this true? can a program not take you, because you sent them your full application without them asking first?
is this true? can a program not take you, because you sent them your full application without them asking first?
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A program can not take you in the Scramble because your middle name begins with a consonant.
Spamming their fax machine with 40 pages of your application at least sounds like a good reason.
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I am IMG without interview, applied to OB only almost 20 programmes. I can't think of doing anything else/ I passed step 1- 4th attempt with 87, ck cs passed no attempt/yog 10+. unfilled positons in ob is always less than 5. without any usa LOR and experience, will there be chance in OB during scramble with my multiple attempts? I don't want to apply to any other field. any suggestions!!! Thanks!
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Do you want someone to give you hope or give you an honest answer? You are an IMG, with multiple fails of Step 1 and no US clinical experience. I promise you that in the scramble, there will be more than 5 US grads who never failed step 1 vying for the remaining 5 OB spots, and many will have US OBGYN faculty making calls on their behalf trying to land them one of those spots. So if you want to be realistic about it, you would have to be lottery ticket lucky to snare one of those spots, and would have to have something absurdly exceptional in your application that you aren't telling us (which is less likely given no interviews).
What I would suggest is to broaden your options. Family medicine doctors out in the boonies deliver babies, and do pap smears and basic women's health stuff too. So you could set up a practice very similar to an OBGYN's once you finish residency through the family medicine track as well. There are a lot more family medicine slots in the scramble each year, I suspect. Even those slots will be a longshot in the scramble for an IMG with multiple fails and no US experience, but more options makes the odds at least slightly better. Much more worth a shot, I would think.
If this doesn't pan out, you might want to consider some less competitive dead end prelim spot for a year where you will get the US experience and use that as your launching board to interview for OB and family medicine spots next year. Good luck.
@law2doctor first thanks for responding to my post.
I am a risk taker and since oB is the only thing I wanted to do/and i am good at it, have done before and will stick to it. who knows i might get lottery ticket.
I know my chances are very low, but it is something I love and will wait for it no matter how long does it take. sound unrealistic but this is what I wanted.
Thanks you very much for your advice, I once thought of FM and practising only OB as you mentioned but I felt i won't be happy doing it.
I definately will try to do scramble, then will apply for next year. I got certified only nov 30, so applied on that day only. My california letter is still pending, hopefully will get before scramble day.
I am looking for ways to do US experience for one year. I have done clinical research before in Australia but here not getting any nearby and I am geographically bound.
your advice of prelim sound good, hadn't thought of it but well looks worth trying it. I am open to any advice to get in scramble. Thanks again!
I am a risk taker and since oB is the only thing I wanted to do/and i am good at it, have done before and will stick to it. who knows i might get lottery ticket.
I know my chances are very low, but it is something I love and will wait for it no matter how long does it take. sound unrealistic but this is what I wanted.
Thanks you very much for your advice, I once thought of FM and practising only OB as you mentioned but I felt i won't be happy doing it.
I definately will try to do scramble, then will apply for next year. I got certified only nov 30, so applied on that day only. My california letter is still pending, hopefully will get before scramble day.
I am looking for ways to do US experience for one year. I have done clinical research before in Australia but here not getting any nearby and I am geographically bound.
your advice of prelim sound good, hadn't thought of it but well looks worth trying it. I am open to any advice to get in scramble. Thanks again!
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I DID go through the process.
IMHO, there is honestly no point in applying to more than 30 programs when you are scrambling unless you are an FMG with poor scores.
For one, if you originally applied to a fairly competitive specialty, there will probably be less than 30 programs with openings. Ortho had, like, 1 opening the year I applied. OB/gyn had 6.
Second, you cannot cold-call more than 30 programs. It's a very time-consuming process, and trying to juggle more than 30 programs is counter productive.
Finally, if you originally applied to a NON competitive specialty and did not match, then it is highly doubtful that shot-gunning your application across more than 30 programs will increase your chances any.
You can apply to 30 programs during the Scramble, but you must be SMART about it. You have to pick which 30 programs you think will be high yield.
Didn't mean to trivialize your response. I guess I was just confused with all the advice about having multiple fax machines and cell phones at your disposal, and why I would need all of that if it was as simple as clicking submit on ERAS.
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I think the advice about having multiple fax machines nearby is a little antiquated. I barely used the one I had access to. It came in handy when the program that I scrambled into faxed me a contract, but that was it.
You do need multiple cell phones, though. Think of the Scramble like a ramped-up Match. After you re-send ERAS, you start calling every single program that you just applied to, in the hopes that you'll be able to talk to someone and plead your case. At the same time, programs will start to call you (hopefully) to talk about your app, do a mini-interview over the phone, etc. At one point, I was juggling 3 phones (two cells, one landline), and talking to 3 different people at different times.
I have become very interested in another field since I started interviews and while my 1st choice field is still my prefered field I could see myself happy in this other field as well.
If I do have to scramble would it be wise to write up another PS for this other field as well so that I can send it with my ERAS app to programs in that particular field?
If I do have to scramble would it be wise to write up another PS for this other field as well so that I can send it with my ERAS app to programs in that particular field?
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I've read ERAS allows you to use them to apply for 30 programs during the scramble, do you still pay the normal fees for this? That's $750 for 30. And if everyone is using ERAS, they will make a killing. ERAS says they prefer that you use ERAS vs. calling/fax/email.....duh. Am I missing something here or is it all about more $$ for ERAS and a slim chance of matching in the scramble?
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The 30 are free...
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Personal statements are a very small part of the scramble process. It certainly can't hurt to write one now, though.
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... and you cannot purchase any additional applications. You can only apply to 30 scramble positions, total.
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What about LOR's?
My exact same feelings!!
I guess this means no need sweating about it's content. I mean trying to make a case of why you are changing specialties in the PS.
How about getting LORs? Will it make a difference not having any LOR from faculty in the new field?
Also I was wondering; can you use LORs from a non medical personnel?
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LOR's can be helpful in the scramble. It might give me someone to call to discuss your performance, or at least give some amount of independent verification of your performance.
LOR's from non medical personel are basically useless, IMHO, at least in IM and I would expect in most fields.
LOR's from non medical personel are basically useless, IMHO, at least in IM and I would expect in most fields.
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Hi I've read through this thread and really appreciate all the advice thus far.
I just have a couple of questions.
I'm not near school now so I only have one other person to help me with the scramble and I want to make sure I do it right.
First thing is to send my information to the programs I am interested in scrambling into through ERAS, right? Or do I call the programs first?
Sorry my school is not helpful at all with pretty much anything at this point.
I just have a couple of questions.
I'm not near school now so I only have one other person to help me with the scramble and I want to make sure I do it right.
First thing is to send my information to the programs I am interested in scrambling into through ERAS, right? Or do I call the programs first?
Sorry my school is not helpful at all with pretty much anything at this point.
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The scramble has changed since this thread was started, so some of the advice might be dated.
I would quickly review the list of open spots once it becomes available, and then use ERAS to apply to at least 25 programs. How to choose which ones is not clear. You might use geography. You might apply to programs with more open spots. You might try to review program websites to see if you're competitive. You might choose randomly. Which of these would give you the best chance, I'm not certain.
After that, it's probably worth trying to call programs. Not clear whether it's worth trying to call those you've applied to, or others. If you try to reach others, you've saved 5 apps via ERAS and can always send an app if you get through and they seem interested. You could also try to reach those you've applied to, hopefully they can pull up your application while they have you on the phone.
The scramble is all persistance, and luck, and the emotional fortitude to get through it all. Try to have someone by your side -- it's likely to be a long afternoon and quite frustrating.
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I second this. Which comes first?
My school told me it was best to call, but as ERAS is a few button click, I think we're planning on one person putting those in and the other person calling the program. Supposedly phone calls will be challenging because all of us will be ringing the same few phone numbers.
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And one more change with this year's scramble is that people need to be aware that they are no longer limited to applying to only 30 programs through ERAS. That number has been increased to 45, however, there are daily limits as outlined below:
1. First day of match (Tue, Mar 15): Applicants are allowed to apply to no more than 30 programs thru ERAS
2. Second day of match (Wed, Mar 16): Applicants are only allowed to apply to no more than 10 programs thru ERAS
3. Third day of the match (Thu, Mar 17): Applicants are limited to 5 programs thru ERAS.
Just FYI. Hope someone finds this information useful.
1. First day of match (Tue, Mar 15): Applicants are allowed to apply to no more than 30 programs thru ERAS
2. Second day of match (Wed, Mar 16): Applicants are only allowed to apply to no more than 10 programs thru ERAS
3. Third day of the match (Thu, Mar 17): Applicants are limited to 5 programs thru ERAS.
Just FYI. Hope someone finds this information useful.
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And I forgot to add that these applications are all FREE if you have applied to NRMP by Mar 11 and have no outstanding balances. Also, you cannot apply to more than 45 programs through ERAS even if you want them to charge you a fee for doing so. They will not let you apply to more than 45 and they will not agree to charge a fee for you to go over that number. Good luck to everyone who has to scramble.
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having gone through this year's scramble(and unfortunately still am), i have this advice.
DO NOT waste your time entering programs before calling.
if you have a helper, you can have them search and enter programs to apply to in eras, but you need to be on the phone asap calling. if you have a dean or faculty advisor calling for you, then that's even better.
program directors are impatient and they are used to doing things the old-fashioned way and they will be working the phones! have pdf files of your eras application and transcript, etc ready to email to them, they will talk to you over phone, look over your file, and offer you something (hopefully). you will still need to apply to their program on eras, but it is just a formality.
i tried the scramble using the algorithm of "enter/apply over eras > call" but got royally screwed over. by the time i figured out what was going on and started madly calling everybody without eras first, a lot of places were filled.
ALSO, if they tell you "call me back in 30 minutes", don't be nice and wait the full 30 minutes, call them back in 15 minutes! they could have given out that one open spot left during that short time.
i wish i could have a do-over on yesterday's scramble.
So I guess, the responses I got in the few times I was able to speak to an actual human being were code for "not interested'. Or what exactly do they talk to you about when you get them on the phone? All I got were; "we are accepting applications only through ERAS", or "we are reviewing the applications as they come in, we will let you know". The feeling I am getting from your post is perhaps I was not aggressive enough. This might sound ******ed, but what exactly do you say when you get through to someone at the other end?
And not to talk of the numerous prerecorded messages, "if you are calling about our ......do x y z, do not email your application.......I even got an email saying not to call or email so as not to slow down the process. Are we supposed to ignore such instructions?
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it absolutely is relevant
it just theoretically is against the rules
it just theoretically is against the rules
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If by "theoretically" you mean "completely", then you are correct.
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sure the rules are there in fine print
are they going to be enforced? no.
are they going to be enforced? no.
How did you end up?I'm a D.O senior, took both COMLEX and USMLE With scores mid 200's. Good grades, Letters of Recommendations, and an encouraging letter from my #1 ranked program where I did audition rotation. F in didn't match anywhere. Never in a million years did I expect this! Scrambled into a preliminary Surgery spot.
What are my chances of landing an OB Gyn catagorical program next year?
The thought of going through this all over again next year absolutely terrifies me
