Second Bachelors?

[4EverBluDevils]

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in pursuing a second bachelors in psych rather than pursuing an MSW from Catholic. I was an English major with a 3.0 average. The first year my GPA was a 2.7. I didn't form good relationships with my professors for recommendations. Catholic only requires professional recommendations but all my jobs have been temp since I graduated. Besides, I still owe my alma mater $4000 so they're not releasing my transcripts until I pay them off. So I'd have to get a higher paying job first and I'm having a hard time finding a job. I also hate the job-hunting process and miss being in school.

If I get a second bachelors, my understanding is that I'll only need to use my high school transcript and my SAT scores. My GPA in high school was a 4.42 weighted (3.71 unweighted).

If I go back for a double major in Psych/Social Work, I can make sure I get a 4.0 GPA and form relationships with my professors to pursue a PhD in psychology. It's more prestigious and higher pay than a social worker. I'll also get to be in school longer and I prefer school to work.

Do you think this is a good idea?

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[Ollie123]

Honestly, no, I think it would be an incredible waste of money. Not liking the working world is a terrible reason to go back to school unless its particular to the field you are looking in. Grad school is also far closer to "work" than it is to undergrad, so you might not find it as enjoyable.

If you are deadset on psychology, I would focus efforts on working and try to build your CV to a point that you will be competitive for a master's program and go from there. I'm not sure a second bachelor's is likely to be helpful, and there are already some serious red flags in how you are approaching this that would likely bar you from acceptance to doctoral programs until you resolve them - which another BA is unlikely to help you achieve.

 

[deleted176373]

No, this doesn't sound like a good idea... it's less of a good idea than the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Pay your $4,000 that you owe Duke(?), forget about psychology, and perhaps find a nice job teaching. I say this taking into account that you've always wanted to be a sex therapist and volunteered with the Sexual Freedom Foundation. I know you've considered Psychiatry, MFT, MSW, and just about every other way to find yourself in that realm of practice short of stripping and prostitution. You might take that English degree and use it for writing books on the subject or assisting others in writing books. You state that you are 28 elsewhere and you don't have time to dally anymore... but really graduate school and another bachelors is a 10 year commitment.

Couple of questions you should ask yourself if you decide to press forward anyway along with some comments.

1. What makes you think you can carry a 4.0 GPA? In general, past history is the best predictor of future performance. (This is coming from a guy who graduated H.S. with a 2.0 GPA, and carried a 4.0 in undergraduate. So I understand that exceptions to the rule exist.)

2. How much more debt do you think you'll incur as you complete your second undergraduate? You are still $4k in hole on your first one. You do know a Bachelors in Psychology is more worthless than a Bachelors in English!

3. Have you thought about how your GPA will be calculated? Most programs will require you to submit ALL of your undergraduate transcripts and even with a 4.0 GPA will be a 3.5 overall given your previous academic performance.

4. Do you think that your reason for wanting a Ph.D. vs an MSW may be a little narcissistic? If you are looking for prestige, go to medical school. If you are looking for higher pay, go to medical school. Medical School is less competitive than clinical psychology and Psychiatrists make 2-3 times what psychologists make and everyone knows that they are "real doctors".

5. Have you thought about your disdain for the "job-hunting process"? Because if you think job hunting sucks, you should try the graduate school admission process in clinical psychology a few times, remembering that it is eclipsed by the APPIC Match process. All the while to be sacrificing real earning potential for low pay and additional debt.

6. What was your original plan? You picked an English degree for a reason, I hope. Unless you were planning on being a teacher, in public relations, or a technical writer, it may have been a bad plan. Online I found this gem from Virginia Commonwealth University's English Majors' Handbook wisely notes that "Most English graduates ultimately find jobs matching their interests and qualifications, but that process takes time, sometimes as long as five or ten years." This does not sound like a degree any sane person would choose without a plan!

7. Why have you decided to abandon your original plan?

8. Was there something wrong with it and are you about to make similar mistakes again?

Just food for thought, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[yeti2213]

No, this doesn't sound like a good idea... it's less of a good idea than the Occupy Wall Street protests.

First, I think Occupy Wall Street is not a bad idea at all. Great political changes start from acts of frustration that are harnessed by more adept people. Or they fizzle out. We'll see which way this one goes. Before we start a flame war though, Markp PM me if you want to dispute the point in private

For the OP, I think a second ugrad degree is a bad idea for many of the reasons mentioned by the other two posters, the debt load is crazy and it seems like you don't really have a good handle on your motivations. I am not in a PhD program as yet. After six years of a successful (but not to my taste career) I am applying to Clinical Psychology PhD. Like you I have a terrible ugrad GPA. AND I'm not sure I'm ready to serve a six year sentence. After reading these forums, looking at the insider guide, and talking to several faculty, I am applying for clinical psychology masters (at a school with a strong research focus). Its not a pretty process, and I would not advise you consider it a more attractive alternative to working.

However should you decide you want be trained as a clinical psychologist, I suspect the best route for you is to go work in a research lab for 2-3 years. I have been volunteering 20 hours a week at one. Which I can fortunately afford to do as my other career is lucrative and just working half time at it still pays all the bills. I don't imagine you have that luxury, so a full time engagement, with the added benefit that at most universities it would allow you to take classes for free, should be your aim. My timeline was much more aggressive than that, but I also bring some skills that easily set me apart from a more typical RA. A strong background in data management and analysis, and IT skills that cost a lot if one were paying a fair market rate for it.

Perhaps I'm just not as jaded as the other posters only because I've only been on this forum for a short time. I suspect they have seen a lot more inadequately research and ill conceived questions . It might also be the frustration of "what do I do", "how do I get out of this bull****" is still visceral to me... so here is my two cents. It sounds like all the energy you have is better directed towards figuring stuff out. Perhaps a career as a psychologist is the balm you need, that is exactly what I am assuming. But you would do well to expose yourself to the what clinical work feels like, what the research process is like, and even take some psych classes before you made that decision.

 

[4EverBluDevils]

Pay your $4,000 that you owe Duke(?), forget about psychology, and perhaps find a nice job teaching.

I'm not interested in being a teacher. They're overworked and underpaid, it's stressful, and they get disrespected by their students. It's also a very conservative environment.

You state that you are 28 elsewhere and you don't have time to dally anymore... but really graduate school and another bachelors is a 10 year commitment.

I am willing to invest 10 years in my education as I love being in school. It would give me an opportunity to right the previous wrongs of my college years.

1. What makes you think you can carry a 4.0 GPA? In general, past history is the best predictor of future performance.

My GPA was low because I was clinically depressed and developing paranoid schizophrenia. I have since gotten that under control through meds and therapy.

2. How much more debt do you think you'll incur as you complete your second undergraduate? You are still $4k in hole on your first one. You do know a Bachelors in Psychology is more worthless than a Bachelors in English!

The plan was to jump straight into a PhD program and find work towards the end of that program.

5. Have you thought about your disdain for the "job-hunting process"? Because if you think job hunting sucks, you should try the graduate school admission process in clinical psychology a few times, remembering that it is eclipsed by the APPIC Match process. All the while to be sacrificing real earning potential for low pay and additional debt.

The thing is, my resume sucks and I thought the application process to a PhD program would be more fun because it involves essays which I like and because my record would be so stellar I wouldn't feel discouraged.

6. What was your original plan? You picked an English degree for a reason, I hope. Unless you were planning on being a teacher, in public relations, or a technical writer, it may have been a bad plan. Online I found this gem from Virginia Commonwealth University’s English Majors’ Handbook wisely notes that "Most English graduates ultimately find jobs matching their interests and qualifications, but that process takes time, sometimes as long as five or ten years." This does not sound like a degree any sane person would choose without a plan!

I didn't have an original plan. I just did it because the classes sounded interesting. I had no future career plans. I don't want to be a technical writer because that sounds boring and I don't want to be in PR because you have to wear a suit and I don't have any suits.

7. Why have you decided to abandon your original plan?

Which original plan? The plan to get an MSW?


Maybe you're right. Maybe I just just get a decent job and forget about school. It's just that, at this rate I feel like I'm never going to get a job. I'm just gonna live at home for the rest of my life.

 

[G Costanza]

Instead of another bachelors, you might consider applying for a masters in counseling or counseling/clinical psychology. Pay off the $4,000 and you should be able to get into a MA/MS program. You can form those relationships, get some clinical experience, raise your GPA, get some research under your belt, and be an excellent candidate for a PhD should you decide this is the right field for you. There is a reason why no one has two bachelor degrees. You should be moving vertically, not laterally.

 

[4EverBluDevils]

How will I get accepted in an MS program in psych when I have no psych background? I only took one psych course which I got a D in. How will I be hired as a Research Assistant without a psych background or experience?

Should I just go for the MSW, or forget about being a therapist and just get a decent job?

 

[Ollie123]

Many programs do not require your undergrad be in psychology, though the D will be a problem. Given that, it might be worth taking an additional couple classes as a non-matricualted student before applying for a master's, but I seriously doubt its worthwhile to get a whole additional degree. If you are older when applying, you will be expected to have additional experiences that you likely won't get from doing another bachelor's.

You probably won't find an RA job with no background, but you can likely find places to volunteer in both clinical settings, and research environments. Some of that may need to wait until you get a little coursework done would be a very busy schedule to do both of those, plus take extra classes, plus working at a job, but its good preparation for grad school

 

[G Costanza]

How will I get accepted in an MS program in psych when I have no psych background? I only took one psych course which I got a D in. How will I be hired as a Research Assistant without a psych background or experience?

Should I just go for the MSW, or forget about being a therapist and just get a decent job?

I have a buddy that was accepted into a counseling pysch program with a bachelors in graphic design. He had 1 psych course as well. Master's level programs are not difficult to get into despite what people in those programs might tell you. Most schools just want your money. If they think you can graduate, you will be accepted.

I wasn't talking about being hired as an RA. I meant volunteering within the MA program that you are accepeted into. There should be opportunities for you to help a professor or doc student with their research.

No offense, but if you're asking me (and the internet) if you should be a therapist or not, than I think you might have more intrinsic exploration to do. And an MA program is not the place to do that. Not trying to pry into your life here but it sounds like you have no idea what you want. That's ok. But probably not the time to be making major life decisions.

 

[wigflip]

I have a buddy that was accepted into a counseling pysch program with a bachelors in graphic design. He had 1 psych course as well. Master's level programs are not difficult to get into despite what people in those programs might tell you. Most schools just want your money. If they think you can graduate, you will be accepted.

Ouch!
But that's been my impression as well.

 

[G Costanza]

Ouch!
But that's been my impression as well.

Call it like I see it

I am amazed at at some of the people that end up in Master level therapy programs...It's a small percentage but they have no business being there.

 

[deleted176373]

I'm not interested in being a teacher. They're overworked and underpaid, it's stressful, and they get disrespected by their students. It's also a very conservative environment.

I am willing to invest 10 years in my education as I love being in school. It would give me an opportunity to right the previous wrongs of my college years.

My GPA was low because I was clinically depressed and developing paranoid schizophrenia. I have since gotten that under control through meds and therapy.

The plan was to jump straight into a PhD program and find work towards the end of that program.

The thing is, my resume sucks and I thought the application process to a PhD program would be more fun because it involves essays which I like and because my record would be so stellar I wouldn't feel discouraged.

I didn't have an original plan. I just did it because the classes sounded interesting. I had no future career plans. I don't want to be a technical writer because that sounds boring and I don't want to be in PR because you have to wear a suit and I don't have any suits.

Which original plan? The plan to get an MSW?

Maybe you're right. Maybe I just just get a decent job and forget about school. It's just that, at this rate I feel like I'm never going to get a job. I'm just gonna live at home for the rest of my life.

The point was for you to reflect on those questions, I really didn't intend for you to answer them publicly.

That said, I have a few more comments.

1. Teachers are not that underpaid, and primary and secondary schools are not the only venues in which one can "teach". Although many primary and secondary school systems can be rewarding places to teach especially in areas where education is more highly valued and sought after. The median school teacher salary in Rockville Center NY for instance is over $80,000 per year, and the average is north of $70,000 per year with only 9 years experience, and that's with a student teacher ratio of around 12:1. The bottom 25% (new teachers) make around $60,000 per year. Now mind you, I realize that is an affluent district (but why would you work elsewhere if you had a choice) but even in "poor" districts like Baltimore County, teachers make more than $60,000 on average. Not that I would want to work there. Sure you could get a job teaching that may only start at $40,000 per year... that's possible... but it doesn't have to be that way.

"Maybe you're right. Maybe I just just get a decent job and forget about school. It's just that, at this rate I feel like I'm never going to get a job. I'm just gonna live at home for the rest of my life."

I sincerely hope that is not true... I hope that you find a job and a profession that you can find happiness in.

As far as the MSW goes, I see that as the quickest, most realistic path to your career aspirations. If I were sitting where you are, I would give it very serious consideration.

 

[deleted176373]

First, I think Occupy Wall Street is not a bad idea at all. Great political changes start from acts of frustration that are harnessed by more adept people. Or they fizzle out. We'll see which way this one goes. Before we start a flame war though, Markp PM me if you want to dispute the point in private.

Nah, I won't go down that road, but it's ok we disagree. I am sure that we could have an interesting conversation about it though.

 

[Deons]

MarkP: you really shouldn't say something controversial and political in nature, a real stretch in using an analogy, then refuse a discussion about it. You might as well say, gay right movements, less of a good idea. Feminism, less of a good idea. Human rights protests, anti-war protests...less of a good idea. I can speculate on all sorts of reasons why you are either unable to see the importance and value and fucntion of this movement because of your work in the military and the value system that you acquired there or perhaps you had within you early on, or you do see it and you simply think it won't work or is not properly organized, or whatever. Or maybe it's simple than that, maybe this turmoil has not affected you personally. But you refuse to discuss it, and yet made that inflammatory comment knowing the situation right now is just...mean. I expected much more from a psychologist. Either don't say anything or if you want to discuss it, own it, meaning go and make a thread about it in political section and then discuss it.

I am one of those people. My parents lost their house. They were responsible, both worked, were honest and ethical people, cared about people and the community, and took time out of their day to volunteer at a homeless shelter several times a month. Then they got laid off. They applied everywhere but no work. Then recently they divorced. They did not make millions of dollars to have any major savings. We lost the house. Then the stuff in it. They worked within the system, did not try to find any loopholes not to pay taxes or not to do their fair part in helping the system continue to work despite seeing the various ways the system was regulated in such a way that it was quite unfair to certain group of people. Instead, they tried to help the ones who were not helped by the system. It was not much, little bit here, little there, but they did that to the extent they could.

My parents were not selfish. But people who were greedy, selfish, and abusive, they got away with it. Then the working class had to pay for their mistakes. Who pays for the mistakes of an unjust, unnecessary and horribly planned war? Well, some businesses are making money off the huge rebuilding efforts there, and security businesses are doing pretty good too. What did the average Joe get out of it? What about lack of regulation or regulations that were not enforced. See, fairness and equality does not mean communism or socialism or whatever because let's face it, those systems are anything but--at least in practice.

Fairness and justice is about holding everyone, EVERYONE, accountable. The bigger the decision, the bigger the accountability. The more people it affects, the bigger the accountability. I am not going to blame people having 50 million dollars in their bank account just because hard working decent people are sleeping in shelters. But I DO have problem with justice, responsibility, and accountability that is lopsided.

Many are tired, tired of waiting for Obama to make changes, for Republicans and Democrats to finally agree on something. Meeting after meeting, promises after promises...but it's people down there who are suffering. This movement represents so many things to so many people. These brave people who are willing to make sacrifices, face the police, and take a stand, they have my respect. They represent me. They are my voice and voice of many who for so many reasons, are unable to take a stand but deep inside, feel a real sense of joy that some are willing to do it for us. TO actually represent us, not empty words, but physically, in the flesh.

 

[yeti2213]

Nah, I won't go down that road, but it's ok we disagree. I am sure that we could have an interesting conversation about it though.

You might think you are doing the polite thing. But it would have a been more interesting than working on this piece of horse-poop personal statement. So screw you for making me edit this piece of crap again

 

[deleted176373]

MarkP: you really shouldn't say something controversial and political in nature, a real stretch in using an analogy, then refuse a discussion about it.

I'll discuss it, but I won't walk over someone's thread to do it... PM me if you want to discuss it.

You might think you are doing the polite thing. But it would have a been more interesting than working on this piece of horse-poop personal statement. So screw you for making me edit this piece of crap again

Sorry, I owe you a beer and one internet!

 

[futureapppsy2]

Can we please NOT turn this into a sociopolitical thread?

4Ever, there are honestly a ton of red flags in your posts--low grades, bouncing back and forth between professions (though I think most people do that to some extents), not being able to get your transcripts from Duke (which would typically be required for a second bachelor's degree, as most colleges will want transcripts from every post-secondary school you've attended) , diagnoses of depression and paranoid schizophrenia (the latter may cause you issues with getting licensed, though it's certainly not impossible and has possibly been done before), equating deciding if you'd like a PhD program to deciding if you like school more than work (any PhD or PsyD program, especially funded ones, will require both, in the form of RA/TAships, practica, and internship), lack of exposure to psychology classes and a poor grade in the one you did take, etc., that, IMO, you really, really need to do some thinking before you take any drastic steps like enrolling in a second bachelors or other degree program. A PhD/PsyD program is not something to jump into lightly, and any program that would take someone who jumped in lightly would not, IMO, be a program worth attending. I agree with the suggestion to take a few informal post-bac psych classes, perhaps at a community college (for cost), and see if you truly like and can do well in the material and then go from there.

 

[wigflip]

Can we please NOT turn this into a sociopolitical thread?

4Ever, there are honestly a ton of red flags in your posts--low grades, bouncing back and forth between professions (though I think most people do that to some extents), not being able to get your transcripts from Duke (which would typically be required for a second bachelor's degree, as most colleges will want transcripts from every post-secondary school you've attended) , diagnoses of depression and paranoid schizophrenia (the latter may cause you issues with getting licensed, though it's certainly not impossible and has possibly been done before), equating deciding if you'd like a PhD program to deciding if you like school more than work (any PhD or PsyD program, especially funded ones, will require both, in the form of RA/TAships, practica, and internship), lack of exposure to psychology classes and a poor grade in the one you did take, etc., that, IMO, you really, really need to do some thinking before you take any drastic steps like enrolling in a second bachelors or other degree program. A PhD/PsyD program is not something to jump into lightly, and any program that would take someone who jumped in lightly would not, IMO, be a program worth attending. I agree with the suggestion to take a few informal post-bac psych classes, perhaps at a community college (for cost), and see if you truly like and can do well in the material and then go from there.

+1 (except for the bouncing back and forth between professions--I'm a bit bouncy myself and am clinging to hope that it's not too late for me )

I find it kind of odd that the OP doesn't have $4,000 to pay off existing school debt, but is considering an additional bachelors degree (2-4 years plus a lot more than $4,000). How would OP pay for second BA if s/he can't pay off Duke? If you spend four years, or even two (although you'd need to transfer your general ed for that--transcripts again) getting another bachelors, you could be working and saving up the money to pay off your debt. OP has posted (here or perhaps on similar, recent thread on masters forum) that s/he doesn't wish to work at just any old job, but most every adult I've ever met has had one or more crap jobs at some point--you pay your dues and move through it and get on with gettin' on. I heard journalist Barbara Ehrenreich (she has some kind of STEM PhD, molecular bio?) talking about her research for Nickel and Dimed. When she finally revealed to her peers at a variety of crap jobs that she was "really" a journalist, they basically counter-revealed the same--they were working on a novel, saving for school, etc. Everyone had a plan and everyone's heart was elsewhere, but they needed the money and were doin' it.

If I were OP, this would be my plan:

1. Get crap job. Save money to pay off debt, or cajole parents or others to help pay off Duke now and pay them back using crap job wages.

2. Take psych classes at local JC or better yet, since money is an issue, sit in the back of local public school upper division psych classes. No one will know you're not enrolled if you're sitting alongside 175-300 other students. Take notes, learn the material, see if you like it. Hang at the research library afterwards and read at least one empirical journal article per day. If you don't have the motivation to do that, you probably don't have the motivation to succeed in grad school. That would actually be a great thing to find out, because it would save a lot of heartache down the road.

3. Pick up some volunteer counseling work.

Good luck!

 

[Lisbet85]

I would recommend thinking backwards. What I mean by that is imagine that highly desirable job you want, and go back from that. Do you actually enjoy doing counseling / therapy as a full time job ? What makes you think you do ? I may not sound very supportive, but I can actually relate to your situation in a way. If you end up doing some other job, all you have done getting a degree was some luxurious consumption, not investment. And you are likely to take big loans in the process.
I second the idea about doing some volunteer counseling.

 

[undertoad]

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