Separate before ADSO?

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TheDudette09

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I have 2.5 years left on my ADSO. Was 1% over on taping during HT/WT so am enrolled in ABCP and my MEDDAC’s new commander has decided all ABCP and ACFT failures have mandatory 1 hour PT workouts every day. When I’m on call or dealing with clinic patients during these workouts? Counseling/reprimands from command.

I’m in my 30s with kids and self-respect. Please talk me out of why I shouldn’t tell command to chapter me or go **** themselves. I could get a job tomorrow for twice the pay without any of this bull****.

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You should want an honorable discharge from the military, even if you could get a job tomorrow. Even if your command agreed, likely you wouldn’t process out of the military for months and they can make your life much more miserable in the meantime. I doubt higher command would even let you get out for this.

PT is one of the most important aspects of being a soldier, to include Ht/Wt. I’m sure you knew that going in. You signed up to be a soldier first, doctor 2nd or 3rd.

Instead of giving up, why not loose a little weight and do the PT. Then test out and finish your commitment honorably. Gain some pride for doing something difficult and make yourself a better person.
 
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I have 2.5 years left on my ADSO. Was 1% over on taping during HT/WT so am enrolled in ABCP and my MEDDAC’s new commander has decided all ABCP and ACFT failures have mandatory 1 hour PT workouts every day. When I’m on call or dealing with clinic patients during these workouts? Counseling/reprimands from command.



I’m in my 30s with kids and self-respect. Please talk me out of why I shouldn’t tell command to chapter me or go **** themselves. I could get a job tomorrow for twice the pay without any of this bull****.

Or you could just get within standards, and get off the list. I'd recommend a fasting/keto diet
[ I don't know why we think we can lose a lot of weight from PT. I suppose that's the one thing we can control, forcing people to show up for PT. But really, the way to burn the fat is to shut the pie hole. Don't in know it, I need to lose about 20 lbs myself.]

I'm sorry you're in the military. All we ask most times is that you put your uniform on correctly, pass a urine drug screen, pass the weight standards, and mind your genitals. Get it done.


 
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Being a military physician is ridiculous nonsense for a lot of reasons. Staying in shape is probably not one of them. There’s so much insane crap that you have to do that no one told you about when you signed up, but surely you knew theyd make you stay in shape.

And while I agree, it makes zero sense to pull you out of clinical duties to do PT, there’s an easy way to avoid that.
 
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I’m a little bit more sympathetic, but more so because I think the Army’s height/weight and taping methods are inaccurate. It’s definitely a method that favors ectomorphs. If you happen to be a stocky bodybuilder type, both methods will overestimate your fat percentage. For instance, Dave Bautista who I think few people would argue has much body fat has a 36” waist. That probably puts him within a few percentage points of the Army taping standards. Granted, most people aren’t David Bautista, but I would argue that most people don’t have personal trainers either, so someone with his natural frame would probably not be as fit generally, and would be even less likely to pass.

I am a muscular build, and I have to get taped every time despite being able to do extremely well (>570) on the new PT test. I am also a marathon runner and workout daily. I may still have quite a bit of room on my taping, but I am extremely active and a healthy eater (for the most part). Someone with my frame who wasn’t as active would be screwed.

So I feel for you. The taping standards are probably not super accurate, but unfortunately, it’s just better to follow them while you are in. In the future, they will probably have DEXA scans instead, but for now we are stuck in the caveman era.
 
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Not being a fatty isn’t some super secret thing the miltary springs on you out of nowhere.

1% over?
Heck, I meet the standards and know I need to drop at least 10# and would be okay to drop closer to 20#

As much as you seem to loath the military, I’m sure your CoC knows it as well. Daring them to do something to you might not go as planned. They may just start screwing you over just for sport.
 
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I had a co resident who was a “Dave Bautista-type,” and always had to be taped. If they made him leave clinical duty to do PT because of that, yeah, I would have some sympathy. I’d probably also tell him to get a note from his physician indicating what his overall health status was, then to meet his CO to discuss why he’s not obese regardless of the H/W requirements, and how no one wins making him do PT with the unit.

But he never failed his PT test. Never actually failed taping. He always did great. And most people failing their H/W aren’t failing because of that specific problem. Most are just fat.
 
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I had a co resident who was a “Dave Bautista-type,” and always had to be taped. If they made him leave clinical duty to do PT because of that, yeah, I would have some sympathy. I’d probably also tell him to get a note from his physician indicating what his overall health status was, then to meet his CO to discuss why he’s not obese regardless of the H/W requirements, and how no one wins making him do PT with the unit.

But he never failed his PT test. Never actually failed taping. He always did great. And most people failing their H/W aren’t failing because of that specific problem. Most are just fat.
It’s true that most of the people failing are just fat. It’s also true that it doesn’t accurately measure body fat. The Army wouldn’t have to defend its methods if they were accurate to begin with. The easiest way to avoid false positives is to improve the measure. That being said, sure obviously lose weight if you are too heavy. This is a service to your kids who will want a dad growing up. Next time you are deciding whether to eat x or drink y, don’t focus on the Army being a pain, focus on your kids and how they deserve a father.
 
It’s true that most of the people failing are just fat. It’s also true that it doesn’t accurately measure body fat. The Army wouldn’t have to defend its methods if they were accurate to begin with. The easiest way to avoid false positives is to improve the measure. That being said, sure obviously lose weight if you are too heavy. This is a service to your kids who will want a dad growing up. Next time you are deciding whether to eat x or drink y, don’t focus on the Army being a pain, focus on your kids and how they deserve a father.
Hey man, I truly appreciate that. And it changed my perspective quite a bit. These other commenters are right (a little harsh, but it’s the internet) too but this helps. Truthfully I’m mostly mad at myself - I was a college athlete and ran marathons up until last year. I’ve never had to think about what I eat or drink before but I had a major surgery a little less than a year ago and the combination of that, new attendinghood, and some family stressors definitely led to unhealthy eating and drinking habits. I knew what I signed up for and should have started fixing things before HT/WT rolled around. It does frustrate me that I’m getting pulled from clinical duties but c’est la vie. Thanks again for this.
 
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You should want an honorable discharge from the military, even if you could get a job tomorrow. Even if your command agreed, likely you wouldn’t process out of the military for months and they can make your life much more miserable in the meantime. I doubt higher command would even let you get out for this.

This is true; nobody ever gets to leave early (prior to finishing ADSO) for being out of weight standards.

I did see one person who wanted to stay get separated, however. But
- they kept him until his service obligation was up
- they wouldn't promote him past O3
- they wouldn't let him stay just a couple extra years until eligible for retirement
Weight control is a funny thing ... perhaps too easy for us skinny people to just say, ah lose weight you lazy overeater. He was motivated to stay and promote and then retire, and he couldn't do it.

PT is one of the most important aspects of being a soldier, to include Ht/Wt. I’m sure you knew that going in. You signed up to be a soldier first, doctor 2nd or 3rd.

I wish people would stop saying this.

The Army (or Navy, or Air Force) need you to be a doctor more than they need you to be a soldier (or sailor, or airman). They have plenty of people to sling rifles and fly planes and drive ships.

I am perpetually salty about this stupid "officer first" bull****. By far the biggest problem children I ever ran across in GMO land during my time with the Marines were the clowns who thought they were one o' the troops, or worse, at adventure summer camp. Neglecting the physician side of their duties to play Marine. The best GMO that I ever knew was my senior battalion surgeon when I showed up as the junior. Overweight. Our LtCol CO (now a general) understood how good he was though - called him "the best battalion surgeon I've ever had" when giving his end-of-tour award. He also understood that he had about 800 Marines and two doctors, and he didn't need his two doctors to be Marines.

Yes, OP should endeavor to get within standards. No, OP should not focus on being an officer first. That's dumb.
 
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If the Army just wanted great doctors and didn’t care about the officer, you’d see a completely different animal. I respect your viewpoint, but do not think that is happening currently.

If the above poster was able to just be a doctor and forget being an officer / soldier then they wouldn’t be posting about PT on the internet.

Being a soldier first does not equal being a bad doctor. You have to be able to do both, realizing that you are an officer sworn to follow the orders of your superiors (whatever that may be). There are minimal standards. This doesn’t mean doctors are going be handed a rifle and go to the front lines. But they need to be able to lead and know some field tasks as well to take over in a bad situation. Field training is a good place to learn leadership skills, which every officer should seek.

I would say most physicians joined the military to experience both doctor tasks and field/soldier tasks. If you want to take the soldier out of the military doctor then just keep pressing higher to continue downsizing military medicine and switch to civilians.
 
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Hey man, I truly appreciate that. And it changed my perspective quite a bit. These other commenters are right (a little harsh, but it’s the internet) too but this helps. Truthfully I’m mostly mad at myself - I was a college athlete and ran marathons up until last year. I’ve never had to think about what I eat or drink before but I had a major surgery a little less than a year ago and the combination of that, new attendinghood, and some family stressors definitely led to unhealthy eating and drinking habits. I knew what I signed up for and should have started fixing things before HT/WT rolled around. It does frustrate me that I’m getting pulled from clinical duties but c’est la vie. Thanks again for this.
No problem! I don’t have kids yet, but I hope to have some, and the thought of having them motivated me to more or less stop drinking alcohol. I don’t have a problem, but I check my blood pressure, and it runs ten points higher after I’ve had a couple of beers, so this is coming from a place of personal reflection and not judgment.
 
If the Army just wanted great doctors and didn’t care about the officer, you’d see a completely different animal. I respect your viewpoint, but do not think that is happening currently.

If the above poster was able to just be a doctor and forget being an officer / soldier then they wouldn’t be posting about PT on the internet.

Being a soldier first does not equal being a bad doctor. You have to be able to do both, realizing that you are an officer sworn to follow the orders of your superiors (whatever that may be). There are minimal standards. This doesn’t mean doctors are going be handed a rifle and go to the front lines. But they need to be able to lead and know some field tasks as well to take over in a bad situation. Field training is a good place to learn leadership skills, which every officer should seek.

Don't get me wrong - obviously military physicians must adhere to the basic standards and other regulations that come with being an officer. I am absolutely NOT talking about trivial nonsense like weight standards, or any other bit of "officerness" that can't possibly conflict with being a good physician. Not being obese, wearing a uniform properly, saluting superiors, getting your subordinates fitness reports done on time, etc etc etc. Yes, of course do all that.

But if you ever have to choose between being a "good physician" and a "good officer" there is only one correct answer, and it sure isn't being an officer first.

With respect, one thing all of you well-meaning "officer first doctor second" people have in common is a failure of imagination. The basic problem is that you say those words sincerely, in good faith ... but without understanding that there are times when being a doctor WILL conflict with being a "good" officer. I'll give you a few examples from my own career.


You have a soldier (or Marine, or airman) who has previously tested positive for opioids and is confined to the base while pending disciplinary action. He is brought to your aid station drunk, but not in any immediate danger. Your CO says he wants you to give him a dose of naloxone to see if he's also currently under the influence of opioids, to bolster the pending court martial.

Your CO asks why a particular person in the command went to sick call on a particular day, citing his privilege as CO. The reason for the sick call visit does not affect the individual's deployability or ability to perform his duties. Your CO insists that you disclose the reason for the visit, because morale and good order depends on putting a stop to people skipping out on work for frivolous sick call visits.

You're a GMO, deployed to a faraway land. Providing free clinics to the local population is a marvelous source of both good will and intelligence for coalition forces. Your CO directs you to organize and run these MEDCAPs (medical civilian action program), both personally as a provider seeing patients, and delegating that provider role to a PA, IDC (independent duty corpsman), or other corpsman/medic personnel. Do you agree to run clinics yourself, potentially practicing out of your normal scope of care (pediatrics, geriatrics, OB, infectious disease, etc)? Do you agree to help non-physicians run these programs by seeing local nationals independently?

Your chain of command directs you to place a nasogastric tube in a detainee who is refusing to eat, whose health is now in peril because of it, in order to provide nutrition. The detainee will not cooperate and thus will require sedation as well. The senior physician in that chain of command concurs with this plan and expects you to carry it out.


And one final, mundane, snore-inducing example that is so universally true and ubiquitous that we openly joke about the physicians who choose being an officer first and physician second: You're now a mid-career O4 or O5 physician, and your chain of command wants you to cut back your clinical time to do more administrative work. There's an assistant directorship position that needs a motivated body. Or maybe the pharmacy committee, or MWR committee, or diversity committee, or blood utilization review committee, or sedation service committee needs a new vice chair. You don't have to step into these administrative positions, but if you don't, you won't promote. Obviously, being an officer first and a physician second means pursuing promotion, and doing the non-clinical things that lead to promotion, right?


I would say most physicians joined the military to experience both doctor tasks and field/soldier tasks.

This is objectively incorrect. Most physicians joined for tuition assistance, with the expectation (or perhaps just a nervous hope) that they might also enjoy military service.

Regardless, an individual's motivation for joining is irrelevant to a discussion of which path to take when conflicts arise between being a good officer and a good physician.

If you want to take the soldier out of the military doctor then just keep pressing higher to continue downsizing military medicine and switch to civilians.

This is an entirely different subject, but if you mean fold the active duty MTFs into the VA and make 90% of the active duty medical corps reservists - then yes. Yes, for many reasons completely unrelated to officer vs physician dilemmas.



Being a soldier first does not equal being a bad doctor.

And to get back to the point - sometimes being a soldier first DOES equal being a bad doctor. If you think there's never conflict, you are naive ... or to invoke Burnett's Law ... a bad doctor. ;)
 
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Don't get me wrong - obviously military physicians must adhere to the basic standards and other regulations that come with being an officer. I am absolutely NOT talking about trivial nonsense like weight standards, or any other bit of "officerness" that can't possibly conflict with being a good physician. Not being obese, wearing a uniform properly, saluting superiors, getting your subordinates fitness reports done on time, etc etc etc. Yes, of course do all that.

But if you ever have to choose between being a "good physician" and a "good officer" there is only one correct answer, and it sure isn't being an officer first.

With respect, one thing all of you well-meaning "officer first doctor second" people have in common is a failure of imagination. The basic problem is that you say those words sincerely, in good faith ... but without understanding that there are times when being a doctor WILL conflict with being a "good" officer. I'll give you a few examples from my own career.


You have a soldier (or Marine, or airman) who has previously tested positive for opioids and is confined to the base while pending disciplinary action. He is brought to your aid station drunk, but not in any immediate danger. Your CO says he wants you to give him a dose of naloxone to see if he's also currently under the influence of opioids, to bolster the pending court martial.

Your CO asks why a particular person in the command went to sick call on a particular day, citing his privilege as CO. The reason for the sick call visit does not affect the individual's deployability or ability to perform his duties. Your CO insists that you disclose the reason for the visit, because morale and good order depends on putting a stop to people skipping out on work for frivolous sick call visits.

You're a GMO, deployed to a faraway land. Providing free clinics to the local population is a marvelous source of both good will and intelligence for coalition forces. Your CO directs you to organize and run these MEDCAPs (medical civilian action program), both personally as a provider seeing patients, and delegating that provider role to a PA, IDC (independent duty corpsman), or other corpsman/medic personnel. Do you agree to run clinics yourself, potentially practicing out of your normal scope of care (pediatrics, geriatrics, OB, infectious disease, etc)? Do you agree to help non-physicians run these programs by seeing local nationals independently?

Your chain of command directs you to place a nasogastric tube in a detainee who is refusing to eat, whose health is now in peril because of it, in order to provide nutrition. The detainee will not cooperate and thus will require sedation as well. The senior physician in that chain of command concurs with this plan and expects you to carry it out.


And one final, mundane, snore-inducing example that is so universally true and ubiquitous that we openly joke about the physicians who choose being an officer first and physician second: You're now a mid-career O4 or O5 physician, and your chain of command wants you to cut back your clinical time to do more administrative work. There's an assistant directorship position that needs a motivated body. Or maybe the pharmacy committee, or MWR committee, or diversity committee, or blood utilization review committee, or sedation service committee needs a new vice chair. You don't have to step into these administrative positions, but if you don't, you won't promote. Obviously, being an officer first and a physician second means pursuing promotion, and doing the non-clinical things that lead to promotion, right?




This is objectively incorrect. Most physicians joined for tuition assistance, with the expectation (or perhaps just a nervous hope) that they might also enjoy military service.

Regardless, an individual's motivation for joining is irrelevant to a discussion of which path to take when conflicts arise between being a good officer and a good physician.



This is an entirely different subject, but if you mean fold the active duty MTFs into the VA and make 90% of the active duty medical corps reservists - then yes. Yes, for many reasons completely unrelated to officer vs physician dilemmas.





And to get back to the point - sometimes being a soldier first DOES equal being a bad doctor. If you think there's never conflict, you are naive ... or to invoke Burnett's Law ... a bad doctor. ;)

What are you even rambling about. The posted question is about PT. Doing PT is a soldier task or an officer task. Doctors don’t have to do PT to keep their job.
 
What are you even rambling about. The posted question is about PT. Doing PT is a soldier task or an officer task. Doctors don’t have to do PT to keep their job.
I'm countering your asinine comment about military physicians being officers first, doctors second.

Threads drift. We're not talking about PT. Keep up.
 
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With respect, one thing all of you well-meaning "officer first doctor second" people have in common is a failure of imagination. The basic problem is that you say those words sincerely, in good faith ... but without understanding that there are times when being a doctor WILL conflict with being a "good" officer. I'll give you a few examples from my own career.
FWIW, I’ve said this, although perhaps from a different perspective. I’ve been at posts where they absolute expectation was that your officering came before your doctoring no matter what, and it was a major problem for me more than once, and would have lead to inappropriate or delayed care (or both) if I hadn’t called their bluff and told them they could pull out UCMJ if they wanted to (they didn’t, and I’m glad they didn’t, but it should never have come to that).m
If you’re a physician who believes that you’re an officer first, then I agree you’re a problem waiting to happen and I hope you’re always at a duty station where you’re under the radar and that never ends up being tested.

HT/WT is a stupid metric to be sure, if taken in isolation. If you can’t walk without getting winded that’s not just an Army problem, it’s probably a horrible example to set as a physician (assuming it’s not a medical condition). But HT/WT is never a surprise to anyone when they join the military.

It is definitely easier to say “lose weight” than it is to do it, but it can be done. It’s just a hell of a lot more work for some people than it is for others. It ain’t fair. It just is.

And most physicians DEFINITELY join for financial reasons, not because they want to be officers. It’s a cherry on top AT MOST for the vast majority.
 
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your asinine comment….Keep up.

Is that the military officer in you or the doctor dishing that out?

I’d say you may be over-interpreting out of context.

Anyways, I’m going off this post. Open conversations are what I come on here for. But once they turn south like this I might as well go over to the foxnews comment section lol.
 
I mostly agree with whatever rambles out of @pgg but gotta say that officer first, physician second is a great way for newbies to understand what they are getting in to. It doesn't mean you are a better officer than you are a physician it just means that you have to accept the ridiculous oversight, rules, standards and obligations of being a military officer before you can even begin to focus on being a good physician.

Accepting the BS that comes along with being a military officer is a good litmus test on whether MilMed might work out or not. If you can't accept it going in or if you are in and then become disgruntled by the officer requirements then its probably a good time to separate.

OP can do whatever they want but if you aren't going to meet standards and then refuse to listen to consequences your last few months will be very sour and there is no end to how miserable they can make your life while you're still in and also tarnish your record as you separate. Right or wrong they can do it so best to follow the rules and meet the standards that 99% of your colleagues are doing without issue.
 
Is that the military officer in you or the doctor dishing that out?
I'm retired and it's the voice of experience dishing it out.

That phrase "officer first doctor second" is a peeve of mine, to put it lightly. The scenario questions I posed in my earlier post that you ignored weren't conjured out of thin air. I don't want to go too far into specific details but I have seen people hurt, laws broken, organs trafficked (by allies fortunately not us), and strictly speaking that bit regarding the detainee was a war crime - all because good medical corps officers went along with what the line and senior medical corps leadership told them to do.

Its easy to sit here on a forum and scoff and say WELL I WOULD NEVER do any of that, but I'm telling you, good people get roped into dodgy ****, and it's mostly because they want to be good officers and see the mission succeed.

Beyond the stuff that was clearly over the line is a whole world of gray ethical areas.

And it all starts with this awful cliche of being an officer first, and subordinating your role and duties as a physician to other priorities.
 
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I'm retired and it's the voice of experience dishing it out.

That phrase "officer first doctor second" is a peeve of mine, to put it lightly. The scenario questions I posed in my earlier post that you ignored weren't conjured out of thin air. I don't want to go too far into specific details but I have seen people hurt, laws broken, organs trafficked (by allies fortunately not us), and strictly speaking that bit regarding the detainee was a war crime - all because good medical corps officers went along with what the line and senior medical corps leadership told them to do.

Its easy to sit here on a forum and scoff and say WELL I WOULD NEVER do any of that, but I'm telling you, good people get roped into dodgy ****, and it's mostly because they want to be good officers and see the mission succeed.

Beyond the stuff that was clearly over the line is a whole world of gray ethical areas.

And it all starts with this awful cliche of being an officer first, and subordinating your role and duties as a physician to other priorities.
I completely agree with this. There comes a point where just being a good officer and reflexively saying “yes, sir” or “yes, ma’am” will get you or other people hurt.

I am confident that in OP’s presented scenario that is not the case.

Just remember the oath and basic morals whilst trying to be a good officer so you don’t get yourself or others in to trouble
 
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Just remember the oath and basic morals whilst trying to be a good officer so you don’t get yourself or others in to trouble
A lot of service members forget they have a duty to disobey unlawful orders under the UCMJ as well.
 
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I have 2.5 years left on my ADSO. Was 1% over on taping during HT/WT so am enrolled in ABCP and my MEDDAC’s new commander has decided all ABCP and ACFT failures have mandatory 1 hour PT workouts every day. When I’m on call or dealing with clinic patients during these workouts? Counseling/reprimands from command.

I’m in my 30s with kids and self-respect. Please talk me out of why I shouldn’t tell command to chapter me or go **** themselves. I could get a job tomorrow for twice the pay without any of this bull****.
1% over? That's easy. I went to CCC and busted tape and lost 7 lbs in 7 days just eating keto and working out twice a day while doing course work. If reserves/guard soldiers can do the medical job full time and the command stuff/reserves stuff part time, and still have a family life, then a full time green suiter should be able to maintain physical fitness. You knew it when you signed the contract. PT each day and keto diet and you should lose the 1% in about 1-2 weeks. Knuckle down and get it done and then when your time is up be done if you don't want to be taped all the time. I hate it too and I've been taped my whole career and will be until I decide to get out or until I retire. It sucks, but it's part of the contract.
 
Hey man, I truly appreciate that. And it changed my perspective quite a bit. These other commenters are right (a little harsh, but it’s the internet) too but this helps. Truthfully I’m mostly mad at myself - I was a college athlete and ran marathons up until last year. I’ve never had to think about what I eat or drink before but I had a major surgery a little less than a year ago and the combination of that, new attendinghood, and some family stressors definitely led to unhealthy eating and drinking habits. I knew what I signed up for and should have started fixing things before HT/WT rolled around. It does frustrate me that I’m getting pulled from clinical duties but c’est la vie. Thanks again for this.

It's easy to get off the wagon. Life happens. Trust me I've been there a few times in my career. I am actually there right now. Some injuries and illness since June and I'm about 20 lbs heavier than I like to be. It's the diet more than anything. Knuckle down on your diet and do the stupid PT they require to let them check their box and just move past it. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Taping is such BS. I taped with my unit 3 weeks before CC and was 1.5% under the limit. I weighed 4 lbs less when I checked in for CCC and I was 1% over and that was after me calling BS on how I was being taped (tape not over my actual adam's apple, tape not pulled snug on my belly button level etc.). I took the same test less than 7 days later and dropped 2.5% body fat. Not possible. It's all in how you are being taped unfortunately.
 
As someone who was overweight but got into standards. Prioritize your health. Go to the PT sessions someone else can cover clinic. Get into standards serve your time get out honorably.
 
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