Short Term Non-Clinical Volunteering

[mstpgrind]

Hey, I was wondering how short-term non-clinical volunteering looked like.

Specifically, I'm a computer science major, and I'm part of a group this semester that is creating a tutoring app for kids on campus, and we hope to extend this app to anyone in our community. It looks like I'll be spending 20 weeks on this, and about 4 hrs/wk, so it'll come out to around 80 hours.
I'm going to do this activity regardless of how it looks, but I was curious as to how it would look.

My concern is that this will look like box-checking/resume padding because it's so short-term...

Thanks for any advice!

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[KnightDoc]

Hey, I was wondering how short-term non-clinical volunteering looked like.

Specifically, I'm a computer science major, and I'm part of a group this semester that is creating a tutoring app for kids on campus, and we hope to extend this app to anyone in our community. It looks like I'll be spending 20 weeks on this, and about 4 hrs/wk, so it'll come out to around 80 hours.
I'm going to do this activity regardless of how it looks, but I was curious as to how it would look.

My concern is that this will look like box-checking/resume padding because it's so short-term...

Thanks for any advice!

The issue isn't really that it's box checking or resume padding. The bigger problem is that it's a computer science major working on a computer science project, maybe as part of your course work, maybe not, but definitely right in your comfort zone, although it will surely have an application to the under served. Better than nothing, but not really the same as building houses for the homeless, feeding the hungry, actually going into an inner city school and tutoring, etc.

It's not going to look bad at all, but 80 hours are kind of light and it's not really the out of your comfort zone demonstration of altruism that schools are looking for, if that's the extent of your non-clinical volunteering. JMHO as a fellow applicant.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Better than nothing, but not really the same as building houses for the homeless, feeding the hungry, actually going into an inner city school and tutoring, etc.

Lol this is peak pre-med meme. You don't need to dig wells in Guatemala with your bare hands for your volunteer work to "look good." You are much better off doing something you are interested in and knowledgeable about than doing a project just because it seems "altruistic."

OP is probably going to help more people spending 80 hours working in a field he is an expert in (or at least knowledgeable about) than spending 80 hours building houses for the homeless. You know who is best at building houses for the homeless? Paid construction workers.

 

[candbgirl]

Is this your only nonclinical volunteering? As @KnightDoc said 80 hours isn’t much. He’s also correct in that this whole project and it’s focus is smack dab in your comfort zone. Additionally the people you are supposedly helping don’t even have direct contact with you(sorry if I have misunderstood about the app concept.) You obviously want to continue the program, but you should also find activities outside of your comfort zone. As a physician you will be dealing with all kinds of people and many will be very unlike yourself. Remember that Medicine is a service profession and despite what @Vivid_Quail says, ADCOMS do look for evidence of altruism and experience serving the unserved and underserved in your community. Dig(ging)wells in Guatemala with your bare hands for your volunteer work to "look good” will not impress ADCOMS. Service begins in the USA.
Currently there are lots of needs in the community so it really shouldn’t be hard to find someplace to help out.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Is this your only nonclinical volunteering? As @KnightDoc said 80 hours isn’t much. He’s also correct in that this whole project and it’s focus is smack dab in your comfort zone. Additionally the people you are supposedly helping don’t even have direct contact with you(sorry if I have misunderstood about the app concept.) You obviously want to continue the program, but you should also find activities outside of your comfort zone. As a physician you will be dealing with all kinds of people and many will be very unlike yourself. Remember that Medicine is a service profession and despite what @Vivid_Quail says, ADCOMS do look for evidence of altruism and experience serving the unserved and underserved in your community. Dig(ging)wells in Guatemala with your bare hands for your volunteer work to "look good” will not impress ADCOMS. Service begins in the USA.
Currently there are lots of needs in the community so it really shouldn’t be hard to find someplace to help out.

Digging wells in Guatemala with your bare hands was clear hyperbole and a knock at this weird conception that pre-meds have that volunteer work needs to be uncomfortable and focused on the "under-served" as much as possible. Do you all not realize that your unskilled labor in teaching or construction or handing out food is not what actually helps communities? It is much better for you AND your community to volunteer your time in activities that you actually enjoy and other's cannot easily do, like comp sci or language interpreting just to think of two major specific examples.

 

[mstpgrind]

Is this your only nonclinical volunteering? As @KnightDoc said 80 hours isn’t much. He’s also correct in that this whole project and it’s focus is smack dab in your comfort zone. Additionally the people you are supposedly helping don’t even have direct contact with you(sorry if I have misunderstood about the app concept.) You obviously want to continue the program, but you should also find activities outside of your comfort zone. As a physician you will be dealing with all kinds of people and many will be very unlike yourself. Remember that Medicine is a service profession and despite what @Vivid_Quail says, ADCOMS do look for evidence of altruism and experience serving the unserved and underserved in your community. Dig(ging)wells in Guatemala with your bare hands for your volunteer work to "look good” will not impress ADCOMS. Service begins in the USA.
Currently there are lots of needs in the community so it really shouldn’t be hard to find someplace to help out.

No, here's my other nonclinical stuff:
- Volunteer at food bank: 500 hours
- Co-developer of app that helps poor college students locate places to eat: 600 hours

Also looking to start habitat for humanity once covid dies down, but no hours on that yet.

Yeah, like this app could literally help hundreds of kids in the Detroit area who might not have a lot of access to other resources. However, I do understand @KnightDoc's point that I also should have some interaction w/ those less fortunate.

 

[Medicine-Man]

No, here's my other nonclinical stuff:
- Volunteer at food bank: 500 hours
- Co-developer of app that helps poor college students locate places to eat: 600 hours

Also looking to start habitat for humanity once covid dies down, but no hours on that yet.

Yeah, like this app could literally help hundreds of kids in the Detroit area who might not have a lot of access to other resources. However, I do understand @KnightDoc's point that I also should have some interaction w/ those less fortunate.

1100 hours is already 3x the "very good" threshold for nonclinical hours.

 

[mstpgrind]

Digging wells in Guatemala with your bare hands was clear hyperbole and a knock at this weird conception that pre-meds have that volunteer work needs to be uncomfortable and focused on the "under-served" as much as possible. Do you all not realize that your unskilled labor in teaching or construction or handing out food is not what actually helps communities? It is much better for you AND your community to volunteer your time in activities that you actually enjoy and other's cannot easily do, like comp sci or language interpreting just to think of two major specific examples.

For sure, thanks for that perspective - I tend to see a lot of the "volunteer w/ those as underdeserved as possible" perspective, so its awesome to see a med student showing that other stuff is important. To be completely honest, I just feel like this app can help so many more people than me helping hand out food (which I also do) to one person at a time.

 

[mstpgrind]

1100 hours is already 3x the "exceptional" threshold for nonclinical hours.

Seriously?? Not saying you're wrong, but a lot of my friends have similar hours, so it's interesting to me that that's considered "exceptional"
Is there any experience/sources you're drawing this from (again, not trying to be attacking, but I just wanna confirm this)

 

[Medicine-Man]

Seriously?? Not saying you're wrong, but a lot of my friends have similar hours, so it's interesting to me that that's considered "exceptional"

1100 is nowhere near the norm. I believe LizzyM said that anything over 300 nonclinical hours was considered very good, and between 150 and 300 was adequately checking the box (provided the quality of the experience is up to par). 1000+ is very much exceptional

 

[KnightDoc]

No, here's my other nonclinical stuff:
- Volunteer at food bank: 500 hours
- Co-developer of app that helps poor college students locate places to eat: 600 hours

Also looking to start habitat for humanity once covid dies down, but no hours on that yet.

Yeah, like this app could literally help hundreds of kids in the Detroit area who might not have a lot of access to other resources. However, I do understand @KnightDoc's point that I also should have some interaction w/ those less fortunate.

Adding in the 500 hours at the food bank, you are good!!

Your tutoring app is an add-on to the food app in terms of ECs. You are doing it anyway, and it's all good, but I'm not sure it's actually non-clinical volunteering, as opposed to something else. Again, you are a computer science major developing apps, not teaching at-risk youth how to develop apps!

As I noted before, the apps definitely help constituencies who need it, but you don't have any direct contact with them. Amazon owns Whole Foods, which donates food that's about to spoil to food banks, but all the time Jeff Bezos spent building it wouldn't count as non-clinical volunteering on a med school application!

What you are doing is interesting and cool, and should definitely be highlighted somewhere on your app, but with 500 food bank hours plus Habitat for Humanity, you don't need more hours, so there is no reason to try to fit a square peg in a round hole. I'd be interested to hear what adcoms think about this. @LizzyM? @gyngyn? @Moko?

 

[deleted1080380]

Seriously?? Not saying you're wrong, but a lot of my friends have similar hours, so it's interesting to me that that's considered "exceptional"
Is there any experience/sources you're drawing this from (again, not trying to be attacking, but I just wanna confirm this)

It also depends on what exactly you learned and did at said activity. For example, although the app you developed is most certainly an excellent achievement and resource, if all you can say is "I learned how to code and develop an app and that poverty exists" then it won't really supplement your desire to pursue medicine in a significant way (I'm sure you took more from it, but I'm just using it as an example).

Also to @Vivid_Quail 's point about "doing what you want/are good at and not focusing on helping undeserved and disadvantaged," I disagree. If you've ever shadowed a physician or literally walked into any emergency department or hospital, you'll recognize that situations are not clean and cut dry and discomfort is common. That's literally the entire point of exposing yourself to new environments and diverse populations as an undergrad/premed; it's not only for you to help but also for you to learn. I think both are important, to be clear.

 

[candbgirl]

No, here's my other nonclinical stuff:
- Volunteer at food bank: 500 hours
- Co-developer of app that helps poor college students locate places to eat: 600 hours

Also looking to start habitat for humanity once covid dies down, but no hours on that yet.

Yeah, like this app could literally help hundreds of kids in the Detroit area who might not have a lot of access to other resources. However, I do understand @KnightDoc's point that I also should have some interaction w/ those less fortunate.

You’re fine. You seem to have a wide array of experiences.

 

[mstpgrind]

You’re fine. You seem to have a wide array of experiences.

Thanks for your advice - so do you think tutoring app is AMCAS worthy or not really?
I know someone said it won't show anything about how I'll be a better doctor - but as a physician I want to make apps and help people in this way, whether through research or actual practical software projects (though I understand this isn't biomedical/pubhealth related).

I just think it's pretty cool that I can help so many people while putting in (relatively) little effort.

 

[Dr.K124]

Thanks for your advice - so do you think tutoring app is AMCAS worthy or not really?
I know someone said it won't show anything about how I'll be a better doctor - but as a physician I want to make apps and help people in this way, whether through research or actual practical software projects (though I understand this isn't biomedical/pubhealth related).

I just think it's pretty cool that I can help so many people while putting in (relatively) little effort.

It's a hook. Makes you unique. Plenty to talk about in an interview. Stats will open the door, the app could get you through it.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

If you've ever shadowed a physician or literally walked into any emergency department or hospital, you'll recognize that situations are not clean and cut dry and discomfort is common. That's literally the entire point of exposing yourself to new environments and diverse populations as an undergrad/premed; it's not only for you to help but also for you to learn. I think both are important, to be clear.

If you honestly think volunteering is what proves someone is altruistic, you really have drank the holistic cool-aid. Being altruistic is a core personality trait that you can’t prove with hours of volunteering. Everyone knows that you need volunteering for med school.

I never said you shouldn’t help unserved or underserved populations…I mean working with those populations is implied when you’re volunteering as a premed? I don’t think it needs to be clarified that someone volunteering to make an app or tutor kids isn’t tutoring rich kids with a great home life. I have never heard of someone even having the opportunity to volunteer with a population that isn’t underserved.

I’m saying that if you have the chance, you should do volunteering that focuses on your skill set and passions, not just what looks the most uncomfortable or gritty. Yeah, it’s best to also have some “uncomfortable” volunteering no matter what, like working with the homeless or doing patient transport at local trauma center. But no premed should be told that their perfectly respectable CS project to help poor kids on campus is “better than nothing.” That is not just bad advice, it’s unkind.

 

[DNAJB6]

You’re beyond fine. After 1100 other hours, it doesn’t look like box checking. Relax.

 

[LizzyM]

No, here's my other nonclinical stuff:
- Volunteer at food bank: 500 hours
- Co-developer of app that helps poor college students locate places to eat: 600 hours

Also looking to start habitat for humanity once covid dies down, but no hours on that yet.

Yeah, like this app could literally help hundreds of kids in the Detroit area who might not have a lot of access to other resources. However, I do understand @KnightDoc's point that I also should have some interaction w/ those less fortunate.

Big nope in my book.... you are not in direct contact with the kids/college students who need help. It isn't really service. The idea of non-clinical volunteering is to demonstrate that you see people in need and want to help them directly. Programming an app or fundraising for a cause is removed from the people who need help.

The Food Bank thing is good. Go with that. The apps could go on your application under the heading "other" to show how you've used your skills for good although not exactly non-clinical volunteering.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

It isn't really service. The idea of non-clinical volunteering is to demonstrate that you see people in need and want to help them directly. Programming an app or fundraising for a cause is removed from the people who need help.

I realize I am about to disagree with a demi-god, a name and score system known by every premed far and wide, but...

What OP is doing with their app is literally one of the dictionary definitions of "service": "contribution to the welfare of others". Now, you can argue that at your school you would not view this computer science stuff as "in the trenches" enough to count as medical school application-worthy volunteering, but by any semi-reasonable definition of the words "service" and "volunteering", OP is doing exactly that.

The part that really bothers me is this part: "The idea of non-clinical volunteering is to demonstrate that you see people in need and want to help them directly." That is exactly what OP did...he saw a need for poor kids on campus to find places to eat, and he is directly helping them. In fact, he took far far more initiative than someone who just signs up for 500 hours at a soup kitchen, HFH build, or ER volunteering.

Your opinion on this seems antiquated. Helping people through the internet is how much, if not most, of American medicine has been practiced this last year.

Finally, I would love to see you convince some radiologists and pathologists that their work as physicians isn't "service" because they aren't "helping [their patients] directly."

Edit: to be clear, I greatly respect the opinion of @LizzyM in regards to "how will adcoms view this", LizzyM knows 10000x more than me in that aspect. But I disagree with the logic of how adcoms (at least ones like LizzyM) apparently define "service."

 

[mstpgrind]

Big nope in my book.... you are not in direct contact with the kids/college students who need help. It isn't really service. The idea of non-clinical volunteering is to demonstrate that you see people in need and want to help them directly. Programming an app or fundraising for a cause is removed from the people who need help.

The Food Bank thing is good. Go with that. The apps could go on your application under the heading "other" to show how you've used your skills for good although not exactly non-clinical volunteering.

Thank you so much for your input... I fully agree with @Vivid_Quail's sentiment that while you know much more than I ever will about how adcoms define service, I believe this is service (though I understand what I think isn't that important).

So, to be clear, because of your opinion, I won't list this as "non-clinical volunteering." However, It's just sort of frustrating that I've spent so many hours in something that has objectively helped so many more people than the kids who handed out food for a couple of hours a week (I am one of those kids). Like I have served >2000 people (which is crazy to me) just by making an app, while in my entire time at the food bank (part of which was organizing the food, getting it together in one meal, etc.), I've probably served about 1000 people.

I feel like not classifying this as service is analogous to not counting my research in image analysis as "real" research because it was conducted via machine learning programs that automatically analyzed histological slides rather than analyzing the slides by eye using staining techniques.

Just my thoughts, but I recognize what constitutes service "in my book" isn't that important.
Again, thanks so much for your input, and I will keep it in mind as I label stuff on AMCAS; this info will also preclude me from applying to a service-heavy school such as RUSH.

 

[candbgirl]

Thanks for your advice - so do you think tutoring app is AMCAS worthy or not really?
I know someone said it won't show anything about how I'll be a better doctor - but as a physician I want to make apps and help people in this way, whether through research or actual practical software projects (though I understand this isn't biomedical/pubhealth related).

I just think it's pretty cool that I can help so many people while putting in (relatively) little effort.

I think it will make you stand out in a good and innovative way. It might not show anything about you being a better doctor but it will show you are creative, can problem solve and can think outside of the box.

In general, med School applications are are picture of you and what you have done and how you got to this point. Some applicants are into the arts , others are into sports or sciences or whatever. You happen to have a gift for developing programs and there will be opportunities for you to share this about yourself. It’s a great and interesting program and helpful to students who use it. You have plenty of nonclinical volunteering. This doesn’t have to be part of it. It can be a stand alone activity that is very meaningful to you.

One thing though:
I just think it's pretty cool that I can help so many people while putting in (relatively) little effort.

Don’t say this.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Thank you so much for your input... I fully agree with @Vivid_Quail's sentiment that while you know much more than I ever will about how adcoms define service, I believe this is service (though I understand what I think isn't that important).

So, to be clear, because of your opinion, I won't list this as "non-clinical volunteering." However, It's just sort of frustrating that I've spent so many hours in something that has objectively helped so many more people than the kids who handed out food for a couple of hours a week (I am one of those kids). Like I have served >2000 people (which is crazy to me) just by making an app, while in my entire time at the food bank (part of which was organizing the food, getting it together in one meal, etc.), I've probably served about 1000 people.

I feel like not classifying this as service is analogous to not counting my research in image analysis as "real" research because it was conducted via machine learning programs that automatically analyzed histological slides rather than analyzing the slides by eye using staining techniques.

Just my thoughts, but I recognize what constitutes service "in my book" isn't that important.
Again, thanks so much for your input, and I will keep it in mind as I label stuff on AMCAS; this info will also preclude me from applying to a service-heavy school such as RUSH.

Great attitude man, play the med school application game but also stay true to yourself behind the scenes. There are two very separate worlds, the medical school admissions world and the real world. We all had to balance both as premeds and in my opinion the most successful medical students are the ones that realize that these two worlds are NOT the same thing once you are accepted.

 

[mstpgrind]

Great attitude man, play the med school application game but also stay true to yourself behind the scenes. There are two very separate worlds, the medical school admissions world and the real world. We all had to balance both as premeds and in my opinion the most successful medical students are the ones that realize that these two worlds are NOT the same thing once you are accepted.

Yeah, as I've gone farther and farther through the process (and I'm almost at the end now), I've realized there's so much bs:
- like to get my 521 I had to learn all this garbage about psych/soc that's just so irrelevant to my life (in my mind, I realize I could be wrong)
- to be completely honest, I would not have volunteered at a hospice center or worked at a surgery center in my free time - I'd rather develop apps that can help real people, instead of me just fetching towels or helping someone use the bathroom.
- Research is cool, but let's be honest - there's a reason 95% of premeds do it and <5% of physicians do it... it's part of the game; my peer-reviewed paper doesn't do anything for me, and probably didn't change anyone's understanding of the field

lmao I'm realizing this is sort of venting, and I'm waiting for the downvotes, but I'm simply way more interested in the practice of medicine than the premed "requirements" that are supposed to show altruism, but at the end of the day, only show how much someone wants it.

 

[LizzyM]

- to be completely honest, I would not have volunteered at a hospice center or worked at a surgery center in my free time - I'd rather develop apps that can help real people, instead of me just fetching towels or helping someone use the bathroom.

Frankly, if you don't have the empathy for patients who need to use the bathroom but aren't able to do so without help, you are unlikely to get that empathy while in medical school. This makes me very sad.

If you'd rather develop apps than help people who quite literally need a hand, then maybe you've missed your calling.

 

[deleted1025488]

I know this may be a bit late and AO has already answered, but my two cents is that you can do both if you understand fundamentally why you want to be a physician and what that entails. I know many successful premeds who have taken gap years to pursue side gigs and businesses relating to health; with that being said, on-site care and clinical experience were always at the forefront while the former was supplementary.

You said you would prefer to develop apps as opposed to work in the clinic. Not to be blunt but it sounds to me that you would benefit more from a graduate degree in computer science...of course, nothing is that black and white, but consider if you'd be happier working as a swe versus a physician in a clinic...

Also, your dismissal of research is concerning. That 5% figure is completely inaccurate considering most physicians at a university are literally required to be involved in research in one way or another. Also, fundamentally, research and "part of the game," as you so put it, works to advance the scientific knowledge underlying medicine so more people can be helped and disease treatment and prevention can be advanced. It's not just a game or some bs that premeds have to learn for no reason..

Ultimately you said you're "more interested in the practice of medicine" but everything you said prior is on the contrary. How can you be interested in medicine if you'd rather be sitting at home coding than in a hospital working...what you'd be doing if you were actually practicing medicine? lol

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I know this may be a bit late and AO has already answered, but my two cents is that you can do both if you understand fundamentally why you want to be a physician and what that entails. I know many successful premeds who have taken gap years to pursue side gigs and businesses relating to health; with that being said, on-site care and clinical experience were always at the forefront while the former was supplementary.

You said you would prefer to develop apps as opposed to work in the clinic. Not to be blunt but it sounds to me that you would benefit more from a graduate degree in computer science...of course, nothing is that black and white, but consider if you'd be happier working as a swe versus a physician in a clinic...

Also, your dismissal of research is concerning. That 5% figure is completely inaccurate considering most physicians at a university are literally required to be involved in research in one way or another. Also, fundamentally, research and "part of the game," as you so put it, works to advance the scientific knowledge underlying medicine so more people can be helped and disease treatment and prevention can be advanced. It's not just a game or some bs that premeds have to learn for no reason..

Ultimately you said you're "more interested in the practice of medicine" but everything you said prior is on the contrary. How can you be interested in medicine if you'd rather be sitting at home coding than in a hospital working...what you'd be doing if you were actually practicing medicine? lol

16% of physicians work in academic medicine, so 5% actively involved in research is not too far off, although I would say it is more like 10%. I know a lot of academic physicians that do 0 research as faulty. Source for 16% is AAMC CIM which is unfortunately behind a paywall for non med students.

 

[deleted1025488]

16% of physicians work in academic medicine, so 5% actively involved in research is not too far off, although I would say it is more like 10%. I know a lot of academic physicians that do 0 research as faulty. Source for 16% is AAMC CIM which is unfortunately behind a paywall for non med students.

Ah, I see—thank you for the correction. However, I still don't think this detracts from the general idea in that comment. mstpgrind should seriously evaluate their future if they would rather work a CS gig than spend any time in a hospital.

 

[mstpgrind]

Ah, I see—thank you for the correction. However, I still don't think this detracts from the general idea in that comment. mstpgrind should seriously evaluate their future if they would rather work a CS gig than spend any time in a hospital.

yeah, to be honest this is something I've thought a lot about... especially considering the median salary of kids coming out of my university with CS degrees is >100k... While I like the impact I can make with CS in the short-term, I know I'll be happy as a physician in the long term. I know exactly what life is like as a physician having both parents as doctors, as well as many other family members - that's where I'll be happy.

 

[LizzyM]

Do keep in mind that while a small proportion of all practicing physicians are engaged in research, it is highly desirable while in medical school in order to land a good residency and desirable in residency if you want to go on to a subspecialty in your field. If you are not into research, I hope you like a family medicine residency in some backwater place. And times have changed since your parents went through residency (unless they are non-traditionals who did residency in the past 10 years).

 

[mstpgrind]

Frankly, if you don't have the empathy for patients who need to use the bathroom but aren't able to do so without help, you are unlikely to get that empathy while in medical school. This makes me very sad.

If you'd rather develop apps than help people who quite literally need a hand, then maybe you've missed your calling.

Hmm yeah I totally understand the perspective. I would say that I really liked the short time I was a scribe/working on the rescue squad because I felt like I was actually part of the healthcare team. Versus I felt like a useless "aide" in other roles.
And while I wouldn't have done hospice if I wasn't premed, I actually did enjoy talking to the patients, many of whom had no one else to talk to.
However, I would agree that I need to develop my empathy and being aware of helping people no matter how useful I am.

 

[mstpgrind]

Do keep in mind that while a small proportion of all practicing physicians are engaged in research, it is highly desirable while in medical school in order to land a good residency and desirable in residency if you want to go on to a subspecialty in your field. If you are not into research, I hope you like a family medicine residency in some backwater place. And times have changed since your parents went through residency (unless they are non-traditionals who did residency in the past 10 years).

I also have family members who are med students at T20s, so yeah I know the game/how it works - and it's not that I don't like research, but I wouldn't do it on my own time.

 

[Medicine-Man]

yeah, to be honest this is something I've thought a lot about... especially considering the median salary of kids coming out of my university with CS degrees is >100k... While I like the impact I can make with CS in the short-term, I know I'll be happy as a physician in the long term. I know exactly what life is like as a physician having both parents as doctors, as well as many other family members - that's where I'll be happy.

It's not >100k, lol. The highest median mid-career (10 years out) salary of CS grads from a university is $140k.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

If you are not into research, I hope you like a family medicine residency in some backwater place.

Is this intense sarcasm?

For US MD and DO seniors, not much, if any, research is required for: IM, anesthesia, EM, rads, peds, neuro, family medicine, pathology, PM&R, psych. The match rates for these specialties for students who put ZERO research on ERAS is between 85-100% for step 1 scores >220. That increases to 90-100% if you have a Step 1 >230. These specialties account for 69.8% of all MD and DO students that match. Also, research and pubs from undergrad count for ERAS, so with ZERO research in undergrad and med school, the majority of specialties are still attainable.

In regards to FM specifically, you can match to a name brand FM residency with 0 research. The FM match rate for DO seniors with step 1 <200 was 95%...it doesn't get much less competitive than that. I say that as someone very interested in FM.

And inb4 some says "but step 1 is pass/fail!!!!", yes, step 1 is p/f now, but the pressure will just move to Step 2 CK and clerkship grades. PD surveys for these specialties have always shown that they never cared about research that much, outside of Ivory tower programs of course.

If @LizzyM was being sarcastic then I am going to feel very stupid, but this is good info nonetheless.

 

[mstpgrind]

It's not >100k, lol. The highest median mid-career (10 years out) salary of CS grads from a university is $140k.

I specifically stated "coming out of my university" which is a top 10 university in computer science and regularly publishes salary data - if you look into my post history its not too hard to figure out which university this is.
Not sure what the mid career data is, but I'm sure its near 150 if not higher.

Also, it's just not true that the highest median mid career salary is 140...
Here's an example of a university w >100k starting: https://www.cmu.edu/career/documents/2017_one_pagers/scs/BS_SCS_One_Pager_2017_ rev.1.18.pdf

 

[mstpgrind]

25 Best Colleges for Computer Science 2020 | GradReports

Explore the best colleges for computer science majors, and learn which programs have the highest alumni starting salaries.

www.gradreports.com

$141k is the highest mid-career salary according to data from the United States Department of Education

First thing I see: "We ranked the top 25 schools by median salary one year after college for students who graduate with a bachelor's degree in computer science."

 

[Medicine-Man]

Hover over the "median salary" question mark in the far right. It'll say: "Median salary is the median annual salary of students in their first year after graduation. Data are reported by the U.S. Department of Education"

I realized my mistake after I posted it, lol.

Very well, you're correct.

CS Grad + Physician = power couple money-wise. Got that early income for retirement compounding and that great income a decade down the line for really settling into life....

 

[mstpgrind]

I realized my mistake after I posted it, lol.

Very well, you're correct.

CS Grad + Physician = power couple money-wise. Got that early income for retirement compounding and that great income a decade down the line for really settling into life....

Hmm yeah... I'm not sure if I'll be happy in a SWE job; I guess I could do it for a year to help cut down on med school loans though.
This actually has me thinking if I should go work for a year post-grad. I'm a sophomore rn, planning to apply this june (because I'm graduating a year early), so I need to make that decision in the next few months.
Maybe I'll open another SDN post about it - good point though.

 

[Medicine-Man]

Hmm yeah... I'm not sure if I'll be happy in a SWE job; I guess I could do it for a year to help cut down on med school loans though.
This actually has me thinking if I should go work for a year post-grad. I'm a sophomore rn, planning to apply this june (because I'm graduating a year early), so I need to make that decision in the next few months.
Maybe I'll open another SDN post about it - good point though.

Well, one thing to consider is the cost of living associated with the higher end CS jobs. San Francisco is expensive, to the point that $72,000 in a major southern city goes as far as $138k in San Francisco. So that $138k needs an asterisk.

 

[mstpgrind]

Well, one thing to consider is the cost of living associated with the higher end CS jobs. San Francisco is expensive, to the point that $72,000 in a major southern city goes as far as $138k in San Francisco. So that $138k needs an asterisk.




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From what I've heard, Northern VA is the best place to live for keeping living costs down while keeping salary high; that'd probably be a good option, as they having Amazon, Capitol One, and many other CS employers as its near DC.

 

[Medicine-Man]

From what I've heard, Northern VA is the best place to live for keeping living costs down while keeping salary high; that'd probably be a good option, as they having Amazon, Capitol One, and many other CS employers as its near DC.

Median home price is still over $600,000 there, but you could definitely make it work.