Should basic sciences be committed to memory or dumped after exams

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DentalNucleicAcid

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Just in the beginning stages of D1 year and am realizing that there is not enough time for one to study the material in a way that you can actually retain it after the exam, unless maybe you study 24/7. Now to study for the exam and dump afterwards, that seems like the only way to go about it in order to stay sane. The concern here is not not passing the exams [and the boards as well, I'm aware of that], but do students generally retain most of this info throughout dental school and during practice? More importantly, is it important to retain this info? Like the micro and biochem and gross anatomy etc etc. Just asking because every time I study I'm continually asking myself "should I try to commit this to memory or just photograph it in my mind and put it on the test?" and the subsequent feeling of guilt for not committing something to memory that could potentially be important in real life. Of course it takes a lot more time, energy, and effort to commit something to memory vs. photographic/short term memory, all of us know that. And of course the stuff that's immediately relevant to practice like dental anatomy and the dental specialty classes will prob stick more but idk..by the looks of it the basic sciences are gonna be a cram and dump. Any feedback is appreciated :)

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Just in the beginning stages of D1 year and am realizing that there is not enough time for one to study the material in a way that you can actually retain it after the exam, unless maybe you study 24/7. Now to study for the exam and dump afterwards, that seems like the only way to go about it in order to stay sane. The concern here is not not passing the exams [and the boards as well, I'm aware of that], but do students generally retain most of this info throughout dental school and during practice? More importantly, is it important to retain this info? Like the micro and biochem and gross anatomy etc etc. Just asking because every time I study I'm continually asking myself "should I try to commit this to memory or just photograph it in my mind and put it on the test?" and the subsequent feeling of guilt for not committing something to memory that could potentially be important in real life. Of course it takes a lot more time, energy, and effort to commit something to memory vs. photographic/short term memory, all of us know that. And of course the stuff that's immediately relevant to practice like dental anatomy and the dental specialty classes will prob stick more but idk..by the looks of it the basic sciences are gonna be a cram and dump. Any feedback is appreciated :)
Pass your exams. Pass boards. Dump it and never think about it again. Live happily ever after.
 
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This is not an answer to OP's question but...

As an attending dentist in a GPR program I am forever amazed at how little basic science my residents know.
(That would include stuff they should know from high school too!)
 
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Also not really an answer but...my school offers an anesthesia rotation at the hospital for 4th year dental students. Our latest D4 to do the rotation was really well prepared (also had studied hard for the cbse), she told me she was interacting with the anesthesia people at the hospital and answering questions they asked. Upon her successful answers they stopped and said “oh, good to see the dental school sent a smart student this time...” ...you may not use the basic science knowledge, but remembering some of it could go a long way in your interactions with physicians with whom you may be consulting on patients, and being respected by your local phycisians may help in getting referrals etc...work hard and try to retain what you can. Doing a purposeful active dump of the material would be a waste.
 
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If you want to specialize in oral surgery you need to retain it. Otherwise, you will not need it. The medical knowledge you need will be reinforced through practice.

That being said, when you get a little further remember your oral pathology or you will occasionally look like an idiot.
 
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Remember, the oral cavity is connected to the rest of the body. Your patients will have various disease processes that effect the rest of their body. Your patients will often mention some "non dental" medical pieces of information to you, and the knowledge of the basic medical sciences that you learn in dental school to some extent will get put to use during your career, especially as the trend in modern dental education and treatment is to focus on how various dental disease processes and treatments interact and correlate to various medical disease processes and vice versa.

While I will be the first to admit that in no way have I retained all the basic medical science information I learned in dental school, I will also say that I do use more of it in day to day practice than I thought I would while I was learning it in school.
 
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Do you have examples? Because personally, I think the only thing I learned about this past year that will help me in the future would be some aspects of gross, dental anatomy, and maybe some clinical medicine and pharm...
This is not an answer to OP's question but...

As an attending dentist in a GPR program I am forever amazed at how little basic science my residents know.
(That would include stuff they should know from high school too!)

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Do you have examples? Because personally, I think the only thing I learned about this past year that will help me in the future would be some aspects of gross, dental anatomy, and maybe some clinical medicine and pharm...

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Well...
This morning I had...
...a young man that could not tell me which trimester was best for treating a pregnant woman or WHY.
...a young women that could not explain how to test for profound anesthesia for a mandibular block and WHY you test that way.
...a young dentist could not understand why 88L extraction forcep had its unusual design.
...ect. ect. ect.
 
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I consistently use Pharm and Oral Path. Dental Anatomy is really an everyday all the time thing. Gross for TMJ/MFP. Physiology and Neuro Physio/Anatomy for patients with chronic pain. Histo and Oral Path when the pathologist sends me a screen shot of the microscope exam.
Organic chem when I say the words "stereo isomer" to the residents to get them thinking.
 
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Just in the beginning stages of D1 year and am realizing that there is not enough time for one to study the material in a way that you can actually retain it after the exam, unless maybe you study 24/7. Now to study for the exam and dump afterwards, that seems like the only way to go about it in order to stay sane. The concern here is not not passing the exams [and the boards as well, I'm aware of that], but do students generally retain most of this info throughout dental school and during practice? More importantly, is it important to retain this info? Like the micro and biochem and gross anatomy etc etc. Just asking because every time I study I'm continually asking myself "should I try to commit this to memory or just photograph it in my mind and put it on the test?" and the subsequent feeling of guilt for not committing something to memory that could potentially be important in real life. Of course it takes a lot more time, energy, and effort to commit something to memory vs. photographic/short term memory, all of us know that. And of course the stuff that's immediately relevant to practice like dental anatomy and the dental specialty classes will prob stick more but idk..by the looks of it the basic sciences are gonna be a cram and dump. Any feedback is appreciated :)

Most of what you learn is useless in real practice. You get a foundation with the basic sciences, but you're not necessarily going to try and deduce with that foundation of knowledge. You're more likely going to draw on the clinical courses. Pharm is important, but not for every drug, just the relevant ones. For micro, unless you're doing cultures and sensitivity testing, you usually rx 2-3 different abx. If you don't know the medication, there's always google (wastes time though). Opath, you just need to know what looks normal; if it doesn't look good, straight to OS they go, unless you plan to biopsy and manage. Gross anatomy is kinda useless, head and neck is more important, depending on the limit and scope of your practice. In the very least, know the nerves, vessels, gums, teeth of the maxilla and mandible.

If you want to impress your attendings or in residency, memorize them until the end and dazzle them with your knowledge. It will definitely make your life easier since it will make you look smarter. I think it makes you look smarter with a certain demographic of patients if you can carry on a conversation about their medical history and whatnot, but you can bs your way through that as well.

If you're going into GP, you can pump and dump after boards. If you decide to go into sleep apnea, TMJ/OFP, or other offshoots, you'll learn what you need to learn from relevant courses.

Well...
This morning I had...
...a young man that could not tell me which trimester was best for treating a pregnant woman or WHY.
...a young women that could not explain how to test for profound anesthesia for a mandibular block and WHY you test that way.
...a young dentist could not understand why 88L extraction forcep had its unusual design.
...ect. ect. ect.

My questions would be:
- Would you not treat a patient during a specific trimester? I'm not sure why dentists are paranoid about treating pregnant patients.
- Do you test for profound anesthesia everytime? I think anesthesia type, technique and volume is more important than anything else. I rarely test unless the patient has doubts about being numb.
 
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- Would you not treat a patient during a specific trimester? I'm not sure why dentists are paranoid about treating pregnant patients.
The question was which trimester is BEST...
When developing a treatment plan some stuff needs to be done now and some can be delayed. That was the issue being discussed on that day with that resident.

- Do you test for profound anesthesia everytime? .
Yes! I am dealing with residents just out of school. The kind way to say it is, their IA technique is still developing. So we do need to test anesthesia every time.
 
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Why don't you just dedicate yourself to learning the material? Is your time so precious as a dental student that you cannot dive deep into these subjects? Sometimes I hate this field because of the people that enter it.
 
Most of what you learn is useless in real practice. You get a foundation with the basic sciences, but you're not necessarily going to try and deduce with that foundation of knowledge. You're more likely going to draw on the clinical courses. Pharm is important, but not for every drug, just the relevant ones. For micro, unless you're doing cultures and sensitivity testing, you usually rx 2-3 different abx. If you don't know the medication, there's always google (wastes time though). Opath, you just need to know what looks normal; if it doesn't look good, straight to OS they go, unless you plan to biopsy and manage. Gross anatomy is kinda useless, head and neck is more important, depending on the limit and scope of your practice. In the very least, know the nerves, vessels, gums, teeth of the maxilla and mandible.

If you want to impress your attendings or in residency, memorize them until the end and dazzle them with your knowledge. It will definitely make your life easier since it will make you look smarter. I think it makes you look smarter with a certain demographic of patients if you can carry on a conversation about their medical history and whatnot, but you can bs your way through that as well.

If you're going into GP, you can pump and dump after boards. If you decide to go into sleep apnea, TMJ/OFP, or other offshoots, you'll learn what you need to learn from relevant courses.



My questions would be:
- Would you not treat a patient during a specific trimester? I'm not sure why dentists are paranoid about treating pregnant patients.
- Do you test for profound anesthesia everytime? I think anesthesia type, technique and volume is more important than anything else. I rarely test unless the patient has doubts about being numb.
thanks so much! it seems like the consensus is relevant knowledge is reinforced through practice. At this stage I can't really distinguish relevant from irrelevant so I'll just assume everything is relevant lol
 
Why don't you just dedicate yourself to learning the material? Is your time so precious as a dental student that you cannot dive deep into these subjects? Sometimes I hate this field because of the people that enter it.
You're right the time isn't so precious, I just want to live a little too haha. But this is the time to learn, I want to be a well-rounded GP. I was in cadaver lab the other day and one of the instructors could easily explain the anatomy from head to toe. Interesting thing was he was the only practicing dentist in the lab, the other instructors were academics like phDs and such so it's more understandable that they would really know their stuff. Absolutely eye-opening and inspiring though, I didn't catch a thing he said during the explanation but it was a nice wake up call lol I'd love to be like that some day.
 
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The question was which trimester is BEST...
When developing a treatment plan some stuff needs to be done now and some can be delayed. That was the issue being discussed on that day with that resident.


Yes! I am dealing with residents just out of school. The kind way to say it is, their IA technique is still developing. So we do need to test anesthesia every time.

That's true, but even for emergencies, a lot of dentists don't want to do extractions, RCT's or I&D's on pregnant women.
Very scary to think that they are graduating DDS/DMD's without being to do a solid IA...

You're right the time isn't so precious, I just want to live a little too haha. But this is the time to learn, I want to be a well-rounded GP. I was in cadaver lab the other day and one of the instructors could easily explain the anatomy from head to toe. Interesting thing was he was the only practicing dentist in the lab, the other instructors were academics like phDs and such so it's more understandable that they would really know their stuff. Absolutely eye-opening and inspiring though, I didn't catch a thing he said during the explanation but it was a nice wake up call lol I'd love to be like that some day.

D1 is still a cakewalk. D2 is when it gets really busy. When you have 15+ finals in 1 week and clinicals, you really have to pick and choose your battles.
 
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Committed to memory and dumped later? What are you guys? Cyborgs? AI? Like @TanMan said ... in the real world ... you'll use a specific set of knowledge and skills to treat 90-95% of your patients. The other 5-10% ..... you may need to revisit past knowledge or better yet .... consult a specialist or other professional that can help you. If I need help ... I consult someone who can help me.
 
I would say that knowing your basic biomedical sciences are important if you want to be great instead of mediocre. Spending that extra time to really know them can win you alot of respect from colleagues in other healthcare fields (like someone mentioned above). For example, because I studied for the CBSE and know my medical sciences at the level of a medical student, interacting with them in inter-professional settings like hospital rotations are much more natural and they straight up tell me that they are really impressed. When I review patient medical history in clinic, patients are often surprised at the fact that I roughly know their current conditions just based on their medication list. I cringe when a colleague has to take out his phone to google or call for help because he doesn't know what the drug (a common one) the patient is taking is used for. So basically, if you want to be considered a physician of the oral cavity and surrounding structures instead of a tooth technician, knowing medical sciences can certainly help.
 
I would say that knowing your basic biomedical sciences are important if you want to be great instead of mediocre. Spending that extra time to really know them can win you alot of respect from colleagues in other healthcare fields (like someone mentioned above). For example, because I studied for the CBSE and know my medical sciences at the level of a medical student, interacting with them in inter-professional settings like hospital rotations are much more natural and they straight up tell me that they are really impressed. When I review patient medical history in clinic, patients are often surprised at the fact that I roughly know their current conditions just based on their medication list. I cringe when a colleague has to take out his phone to google or call for help because he doesn't know what the drug (a common one) the patient is taking is used for. So basically, if you want to be considered a physician of the oral cavity and surrounding structures instead of a tooth technician, knowing medical sciences can certainly help.

I don't think that a great dentist is defined by how well they memorized their basic biomedical sciences or how much they can regurgitate that information to their patients. Although our interactions may include some parts of their relevant medical history, I find that patients care more about treating them like a person, rather than a patient. We don't have that much time with each of our patients and the best use of the time is to have a friendly conversation sprinkled with questions about medical/dental history if there's any questions at all. Patients appreciate it more when you ask about their day, how their son or daughter is doing in college, how their loved ones are doing, etc... rather than demonstrating that you know the medications and relevant medical history.

We are a very procedure oriented profession. First comes the trust of diagnosis then execution. Trust can come from many ways, but I find that patients trust you more based on how you come off as a person, rather than your credentials. The execution is what brings them back with their friends/family. If you get them out of pain, make them happy, execute the procedure well, then your booksmarts don't matter so much as long as you made the patient happy. We tend to be an island of our own, rather than a team player in the medical community. We may work with orthodontists, oral surgeons, periodontists, etc... but I rarely, if ever, work with physicians. I don't need nor want their respect. If they respect me, they should respect me for my knowledge of dentistry, as I respect them for their knowledge of medicine.

In my thousands of patient encounters/visits, I've only had one patient verbally confront me about not knowing/reviewing their medical history before I even saw them. They turned out to be extremely cheap, and my response to them was that unless they are going to get the procedure done, there is no point in reviewing their medical history (although I had already reviewed it while they were talking). Cheap and picky patients are the worst combination in a patient. The point of the snarkiness is to actually deter them from accepting treatment and coming back. Those are walking liabilities.

On the note that a colleague has to google or call for help, that's the kind of stuff you NEVER do in front of a patient. How you act and what you do in front of the patient matters a LOT. Even if a patient is undergoing a medical emergency, you act like nothing is happening, keep your cool, and make it seem like it's a commonplace occurrence. Memorize relevant pharm/medical conditions to save time looking it up (there's only a few medications/systemic conditions that really matter). Kinda like how you never watch a youtube video of a surgical procedure or read an instruction manual in front of a patient. There's a saying... when things go right, you're a doctor. When things go wrong, you're just a dentist. This duality helps us escape from a lot of liability, as you can go on either side. There is no 100% predictability in the procedures that we do, it's close, but not 100% because of the dynamic environment of the oral cavity and constant masticatory forces.

Anyway, went off on a tangent here. Main points are as follows:
1. Being a great dentist means being a likeable person and executing the dentistry that the patient perceives to be good (no pain, lasts, looks nice), not the degrees, credentials, and knowledge that you can demonstrate
2. You shouldn't care what your colleagues or medical counterparts think of you. Unless your business model depends on medical referrals, it does not matter. (Edit: physicians are business people and human... If you are a well-liked individual, send their staff nice gifts that make them want to refer to you, they love their own experience in your office (or positive experiences from their patients), then demonstrating your knowledge verbally or otherwise does not matter as much as the aforementioned examples.
3. Stop trying to be what we're not. There are major benefits to not being medically oriented and not being considered essential. As long as dentistry remains largely elective, socialized medicine will have a harder time justifying to the public that we should be more regulated. I'd rather be a profitable tooth technician than a liable physican of the oral cavity. However, the one downside of the perception of tooth technician is that midlevel providers can attack us more easily. However, smart dentists will utilize that for cheaper labor.
 
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Sorry TanMan, likeable alone does not cut it. And why waste an education by simply making a blanket statement that basic science is irrelevant? You paid for that education after all.
As for your thousands of patient visits...not sure that is relevant. Perhaps your vast experience of treatment with ASA 1&2 patients has made you nonchalant. Brushing off patients who question you is a sign of arrogance driven by bottom line mania. Yes, I am all for making money, but not by ignoring patients and risk factors. High end patients with complex treatment plans and medical issues deserve our time. If you only wish to do simple treatments on healthy patients, your protocols may serve you. But spouting that the education we receive in school should be forgotten is a recipe for future disaster and may influence to many young students who read this website. Only someone practicing a very short period of time would ascribe to this line of thought.
 
People in academics and those dentists working in the trenches are going to have different perspectives regarding this issue as you would expect. Of course ... in the academic arena ... everything is important .... as it should be. You don't go to DS learning "just enough" to get you by. It's all important. We all AGREE on that.

The original post regarded dumping (not memorizing) basic sciences. After 7 years of DS and post Grad... I found it easier to "backlog", not dismiss the less important, less applicable information and concentrate on what was being taught at the present. What does that mean? That means I don't go back to past exams or study notes to further ingrain the past information. I stay in the present. Direct my resources to learning what is being taught in the present and going forward. Learning is hard enough without having to regurgitate EVERY single past detail from D1.

Also .... people in academics are typically teaching a single or a few topics. Of course .... you are going to commit your topic to memory. But to a student or dentist in the trenches .... your topic will only be remembered based on how relevant it is or how useful it is to our every day routine.

Of course .... a dentist needs to be well rounded in everything applicable to treating the dental patient. But in no way is a dentist an expert in all things. No one is.
 
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Sorry TanMan, likeable alone does not cut it. And why waste an education by simply making a blanket statement that basic science is irrelevant? You paid for that education after all.
As for your thousands of patient visits...not sure that is relevant. Perhaps your vast experience of treatment with ASA 1&2 patients has made you nonchalant. Brushing off patients who question you is a sign of arrogance driven by bottom line mania. Yes, I am all for making money, but not by ignoring patients and risk factors. High end patients with complex treatment plans and medical issues deserve our time. If you only wish to do simple treatments on healthy patients, your protocols may serve you. But spouting that the education we receive in school should be forgotten is a recipe for future disaster and may influence to many young students who read this website. Only someone practicing a very short period of time would ascribe to this line of thought.

Likeable alone does not cut it, but being liked by your patients plays a larger role than most other factors. The most successful dentists are the ones that are also well-liked by their patients. I think this is where we've disagreed quite a bit before.

I may have paid for the education, but unfortunately, I am not going to use all of it. I can relate an experience of "getting my money's worth" and when it's totally not worth it. My gf booked us on a kayaking trip of 20 miles. By the end of it, I asked, why did you book it for such a long route when there was one that was a lot shorter and didn't kill the whole day and my arms. Her response: I thought it's something you would do... "getting your money's worth". I don't want to pay more to get tortured more. I was in it for the experience (4 miles v. 20 miles), not feel like my arms are going to fall off. It's a stretch, but I did not go to dental school to just learn, I went to learn everything that's needed to be a good dentist. Do I need histology? Probably not because I'm not going to look at slides. I have a pathologist that will evaluate and make recommendations for me. Biochemistry... am I going to diagnose any hidden metabolic disorders that the patient may have? Nope, for biochemistry all that matters is that if there's any metabolic issues, I know if there's any dental relevance, contraindications with rx or administered anesthetics/medicaments, management issues, effects on salivary glands, etc... You have to draw the line in to the extent you are going to treat your patient.

Edit: The basic sciences that you learn will eventually be replaced by it's more applied counterparts. One example would be biochemistry gets replaced by pharmacology. Much more relevant, but even then, it's not all relevant. You need to know what medications you are going to prescribe and any contraindications. All you really need to know is what meds they are on, any contraindications to what you prescribe, any metabolic issues, route of excretion/eliminations/pharmacodynamics. Rarely do you have to do any dose adjustments because you're not taking plasma concentrations of these medications. Bad Liver? Avoid APAP or CYP3A4/2D6 meds, Bad kidney? adjust dosing for medications excreted by the kidney. Pregnancy? Avoid medrol and ibuprofen. As a dentist, you don't prescribe that many medications. These mental flowcharts allow you to make decisions on the fly without hesistation. When in doubt, call their physician for the recommendations. Pharmacists will act as your protector most of your time. Good pharmacists will not make you look stupid in front of the patient.

For aspiring students and current students out there, the better way of thinking about your education is: Is this, in any way, relevant to the practice of dentistry that I pursuing (GP, ortho, etc...)? Yes, no, or maybe/I don't know. If the answer is a definite no, forget it after exams. If the answer is yes, then remember it. If the answer is maybe/IDK, then you should ask without offending your instructors. If they are evasive about giving you a clear cut answer, then most likely it's not relevant in clinical practice and only in their academic world.

If there's a chance a patient might die in my chair, I'm not going to see them. Always tell the patient that you care more about their systemic health and safety than getting a procedure or two done. Punt it to the specialist for management. For future GP's out there, the majority of your patients will be relatively healthy and the ones that require advanced management, you should leave that to the trained professionals. In my optimistic first year out, I would try to be more accomodating for medically compromised. There are GPR's out there that are more hospital based. If you want to see those types of patients, you should strive for additional training under those settings. However, as a regular GP, you should not be touching those cases unless you have the passion and training for it. There is definitely a deficiency in dental school training for medically compromised patients, but there's also a bit of a paranoia when it comes to any medical conditions. Some things that come to mind is HTN, DM, and pregnancy.

I always have to remind future dentists out there that it's not just about mouth. Think about the quality of life of your patients. I had a patient who had stage 4 metastatic lung cancer with 4 months to live (according to her physician). She had an asymptomatic broken tooth #30 (needed rct or ext). How would you approach this? I told the patient, if it's not hurting you, just leave it be, if it hurts, we'll deal with it then. Without saying it directly, I said you have bigger things to deal with than this asymptomatic broken tooth. Spend time with your family, get your affairs in order, etc... Life's literally too short for you to spending with me in this chair. I could've done an RCT or EXT, but am I making the patient's quality of life better? I assume she's in a better place now since we haven't been able to contact her.

I'm not saying forget everything, but you will forget a lot of irrelevant subject information. Don't think everything is relevant, it's not. If you can remember it, great, if not, at least remember the important and clinically relevant subject matter. As I've said before in some far off post, I aim for the low hanging fruit of dentistry.
 
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