Should I even apply?

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ladpm

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I'm pretty bummed with my score (UG GPA=3.4, Grad GPA=4.0, MCAT=26P)...should I even try to apply US based MD schools...or is it a waste of money? This is my third time taking this awful exam. I guess my options are MD schools on an island or DO schools on the mainland. Any advice?

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ladpm said:
I'm pretty bummed with my score (UG GPA=3.4, Grad GPA=4.0, MCAT=26P)...should I even try to apply US based MD schools...or is it a waste of money? This is my third time taking this awful exam. I guess my options are MD schools on an island or DO schools on the mainland. Any advice?

I'm not an expert in these matters, but I would personally apply DO before considering foreign MD programs. I know several DOs who are the best residents in their respective programs...and on a daily basis, nobody gives a damn about the fact that they're DOs. Now, one important factor here may be that these individuals applied DO because that's what they wanted to do from the outset...they did not settle for it. Just some food for thought!
 
ladpm said:
I'm pretty bummed with my score (UG GPA=3.4, Grad GPA=4.0, MCAT=26P)...should I even try to apply US based MD schools...or is it a waste of money? This is my third time taking this awful exam. I guess my options are MD schools on an island or DO schools on the mainland. Any advice?

If I had to choose between an MD off-shore and a DO in the states... I'd go DO with no hesitation. DOs get more opportunities for residency spots than IMGs. I should preface this by saying I'm not from a DO-populated state and wasn't too sure about the whole DO thing until I did a lot of research and shadowed one for a few months. I was a little worried about residencies because I want to go into surgery and I had heard DOs were largely primary care, etc. Well, rest assured, you can go into any field you want. You just really have to rock the school and do well on the boards (by the way, if your VR score on MCAT was good, the stats say you are likely to do well on the boards... BS and PS seem to correlate more with doing well in the classes for the first two years).

I can say that I interviewed at and was accepted to a lot of DO schools... they are VERY pleasant environments compared to the average allo school (especially for non-trads). The interviews and experiences I had at each school just made me feel even better about that option. I did have an MCAT problem initially, but I managed to finally kick its ass the 3rd time... it took a lot of self-reflection and diagnosing exactly what the problem was. So, I still believe if you really want to go for an MD, you CAN, but I'd recommend you try and improve the MCAT and apply to US schools. But, really, DOs are highly respected in many places even though they're the minority (but they are catching up!!!). Only the really old-school allopaths still harbor some unwarranted view of DOs, and they're moving into retirement anyway.

I should say, I ended up choosing an allo school but it was more because of geography (have a family to consider) AND the fact that it felt as friendly as the DO schools I fell in love with. The closest DO school where I was accepted is over 400 miles away from my home... and relocating costs plus job prospects for my husband were not great there. The best DO school where I would have enjoyed going entailed a $10,000 move PLUS a ridiculously high cost of living (so, thinking ahead, I'd be way more in debt afterwards) and rather expensive just for him to try and go on job interviews 3000 miles away! Anyway, you get the point.

What type of doc do you want to be? How old are you now and what types of things have you done in your life (judging from the applicant file standpoint here-- what are your assets and liabilities, etc)? What state are you in and what area of the US would you ideally like to be as a professional? Have you even shadowed a DO yet? Seriously, if you're into primary care pick a primary care DO to shadow... if you're interested in a specialty try and find a DO in that or a closely-related specialty. I shadowed a DO spine surgeon (ortho)... I don't think I want to do orthopaedics, but it was a really great experience and I got to compare that with the year I spent following an MD surgeon and the 8 months I spent with a MD internist. I could say trust me, DOs are well-educated and provide very good patient care, but I think you should find out for yourself if you have doubts.

If you don't want to air your dirty laundry on the forum, just PM me with info and any questions you have.

:luck: FD
 
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ladpm said:
I'm pretty bummed with my score (UG GPA=3.4, Grad GPA=4.0, MCAT=26P)...should I even try to apply US based MD schools...or is it a waste of money? This is my third time taking this awful exam. I guess my options are MD schools on an island or DO schools on the mainland. Any advice?
I was in the same boat as you, same gpa, lower scores, spent a bunch of money on education leading up to this point....the big question is where are you willing to go? you're scores look ok, you'll get interviews, and hopefully in somewhere. I'd definitely apply to US schools, apply to a lot of US schools. check with us news on line and get the grad school subscription then narrow down your choices from the scores/grades/cost chart. it can get costly but all it takes is 1 letter of acceptance....or mcat again! good luck!!
 
...I'm new here, and I feel compelled to ask the "what are my chances" question.

Here's the story. I am creeping up on 32 years old. No science background other than 5.5 years in pharmaceutical sales that I just left to complete my MBA full time. I have always contemplated a career in medicine (my father has retired from his oral surgery practice) and now that I am looking at new directions to follow one year out from the end of my MBA, I find myself considering medicine again. When I graduated 10 years ago I had a 2.94 GPA in a "soft" major. I spent 4 years on active duty as an Army officer and have spent several more in the national guard as an Officer Candidate School instructor. I currently have a 3.96 GPA at a competitive MBA program (top 30 in the nation). I have completed about 1/3 of the coursework and will now work full time to have it done by May 2007. I would need to take the two semesters of Bio, Chem, OChem, and Physics (and appropriate labs) and take the MCAT, of course. This puts an additional two years of coursework ahead of me, at a minimum. Ideally, if I were to pursue this, I would get into EVMS, which is located nearby, and would want to match with their EM residency eventually. The question is, do I have a shot? Thanks for your time.

Edit: I am also a white male, not married but with a girlfriend. I seem to notice people listing thst stuff in these questions. Thanks.
 
FDoRoML said:
If I had to choose between an MD off-shore and a DO in the states... I'd go DO with no hesitation. DOs get more opportunities for residency spots than IMGs. I should preface this by saying I'm not from a DO-populated state and wasn't too sure about the whole DO thing until I did a lot of research and shadowed one for a few months. I was a little worried about residencies because I want to go into surgery and I had heard DOs were largely primary care, etc. Well, rest assured, you can go into any field you want. You just really have to rock the school and do well on the boards (by the way, if your VR score on MCAT was good, the stats say you are likely to do well on the boards... BS and PS seem to correlate more with doing well in the classes for the first two years).

I can say that I interviewed at and was accepted to a lot of DO schools... they are VERY pleasant environments compared to the average allo school (especially for non-trads). The interviews and experiences I had at each school just made me feel even better about that option. I did have an MCAT problem initially, but I managed to finally kick its ass the 3rd time... it took a lot of self-reflection and diagnosing exactly what the problem was. So, I still believe if you really want to go for an MD, you CAN, but I'd recommend you try and improve the MCAT and apply to US schools. But, really, DOs are highly respected in many places even though they're the minority (but they are catching up!!!). Only the really old-school allopaths still harbor some unwarranted view of DOs, and they're moving into retirement anyway.

I should say, I ended up choosing an allo school but it was more because of geography (have a family to consider) AND the fact that it felt as friendly as the DO schools I fell in love with. The closest DO school where I was accepted is over 400 miles away from my home... and relocating costs plus job prospects for my husband were not great there. The best DO school where I would have enjoyed going entailed a $10,000 move PLUS a ridiculously high cost of living (so, thinking ahead, I'd be way more in debt afterwards) and rather expensive just for him to try and go on job interviews 3000 miles away! Anyway, you get the point.

What type of doc do you want to be? How old are you now and what types of things have you done in your life (judging from the applicant file standpoint here-- what are your assets and liabilities, etc)? What state are you in and what area of the US would you ideally like to be as a professional? Have you even shadowed a DO yet? Seriously, if you're into primary care pick a primary care DO to shadow... if you're interested in a specialty try and find a DO in that or a closely-related specialty. I shadowed a DO spine surgeon (ortho)... I don't think I want to do orthopaedics, but it was a really great experience and I got to compare that with the year I spent following an MD surgeon and the 8 months I spent with a MD internist. I could say trust me, DOs are well-educated and provide very good patient care, but I think you should find out for yourself if you have doubts.

If you don't want to air your dirty laundry on the forum, just PM me with info and any questions you have.

:luck: FD

Here's the cliff notes of my journey:

- 28 year old male from California, not married, family lives in Chicago
- 3 MCATs (best one PS=9, VR=6, BS=11, P)
- UG @ University of Illinois-Chicago
- Went to podiatry school and graduated the top of my class, publications, scholarships, and other application padding
- medical missions to thailand
- rotated at my hospital with anesthesiology, orthopedics, general surgery, etc.
- worked with DO's, US MD's, and IMD's...all were great physicians (my LOR's)
- want to do surgery, heme/onc, or anesthesiology (becoming a primary care doc wouldn't be able to pay back my doubly massive debt!)
- I'll go anywhere in the US for school!

Realistically, my chances for a US allopathic school are fading just as the US soccer team winning the world cup...so I've been tossing and turning last night...these are the schools I'm considering:
- US: Rosalind Franklin, UCLA-Drew, East Virginia, Albany Medical College, New York Medical
- DO: CCOM, Touro-Mare Island, Western
- IMG: St. George's
 
Unusual1 said:
...I'm new here, and I feel compelled to ask the "what are my chances" question.

Here's the story. I am creeping up on 32 years old. No science background other than 5.5 years in pharmaceutical sales that I just left to complete my MBA full time. I have always contemplated a career in medicine (my father has retired from his oral surgery practice) and now that I am looking at new directions to follow one year out from the end of my MBA, I find myself considering medicine again. When I graduated 10 years ago I had a 2.94 GPA in a "soft" major. I spent 4 years on active duty as an Army officer and have spent several more in the national guard as an Officer Candidate School instructor. I currently have a 3.96 GPA at a competitive MBA program (top 30 in the nation). I have completed about 1/3 of the coursework and will now work full time to have it done by May 2007. I would need to take the two semesters of Bio, Chem, OChem, and Physics (and appropriate labs) and take the MCAT, of course. This puts an additional two years of coursework ahead of me, at a minimum. Ideally, if I were to pursue this, I would get into EVMS, which is located nearby, and would want to match with their EM residency eventually. The question is, do I have a shot? Thanks for your time.

Edit: I am also a white male, not married but with a girlfriend. I seem to notice people listing thst stuff in these questions. Thanks.

Bad: 2.94 UGPA (not too bad though)
Trying for one School?

Good: MBA 3.96 GPA
have not taken all the sci yet
Life experience
Young ( yea 32 is young when you are 42 in medschool)
Military background


I hope your not in a hurry. This is a Marathon not a race.
You do have a very good chance of getting into medschool if you do well, thing is that not everybody gets into the school they really want. As for EM residency, doesn't matter much which medschool you go to as long as the step scores are good.

Good Luck :luck:
 
ladpm said:
I'm pretty bummed with my score (UG GPA=3.4, Grad GPA=4.0, MCAT=26P)...should I even try to apply US based MD schools...or is it a waste of money? This is my third time taking this awful exam. I guess my options are MD schools on an island or DO schools on the mainland. Any advice?
I say yes but widely, you have a shot but it may not be the school you hoped for. If the rest of your app is good I think the good GPA with good volunteering and LORS can really make the diff on this.

Good Luck. :luck:
 
i would for sure apply, some schools even have 5year programs. my friend actually had like the same numbers & was accepted to a 5 year program
 
I agree with oldpro... since I'm creeping up on 45, Unusual1's 32 is pretty young to me. Unusual1... it's impossible to handicap your chances until you get into your pre-reqs - as you already know, you'll need to do well. If you have a very good GPA in your pre-reqs, your old GPA will not get as much attention. However, keep in mind that while a completed graduate degree is a gold star on your application, your graduate GPA never gets much attention - most traditional candidates don't have graduate degrees, so your graduate GPA can't be compared across the applicant pool. Your undergrad and grad GPAs will always be kept separate. Also, while I am a supporter of business graduates going into medicine (I'm a CPA myself :laugh: ), starting med school prerequisites right after business school may look unfocused to some adcoms (which is silly, since some offer MD/MBA programs).

Ladpm - you have a terrific background and a good UG GPA. The VR-6 is going to be a red flag at some programs. You might just call some admission offices and tell them that you've got a great app except for a problematic VR and see what they say. From what I've been told, some schools place a fair amount of emphasis on the VR score while others do not. Unfortunately, you may get "pre-screened" based on your total MCAT (which is another good reason to call ahead). Your publications and good WS score do help to mitigate the VR. Looking at the whole "package", I'd say you're in good shape.
 
ladpm said:
Here's the cliff notes of my journey:

- 28 year old male from California, not married, family lives in Chicago
- 3 MCATs (best one PS=9, VR=6, BS=11, P)
- UG @ University of Illinois-Chicago
- Went to podiatry school and graduated the top of my class, publications, scholarships, and other application padding
- medical missions to thailand
- rotated at my hospital with anesthesiology, orthopedics, general surgery, etc.
- worked with DO's, US MD's, and IMD's...all were great physicians (my LOR's)
- want to do surgery, heme/onc, or anesthesiology (becoming a primary care doc wouldn't be able to pay back my doubly massive debt!)
- I'll go anywhere in the US for school!

OK, well there are some really good things and possibly problematic things you will need to address one way or another.

First, you are young-- and as many have mentioned-- this is a marathon and time is on your side! Make sure you have all your eggs in the basket and take your time doing so... best foot forward.

Second, The UC schools are pretty much dead for you with your MCAT. They have so many applicants they get the luxury of being ridiculously picky... unless you are URM, then there may be a chance (but i'd recommend you try and set up appts with a few deans of admission and discuss "general" things you need to do). About the MCAT-- you said your "best one" was the scores you listed... was that the best SINGLE exam or the best you did in each section over multiple exams? Remember that some DO schools will either replace wiht the best or consider an average of multiple scores. This could work to your advantage. Also, an aside-- why do you think you did poorly on the VR? Do you think you might have ANY shot at bringing it up a few points (an 8+ and you're fine).

Your podiatry school experience will provide good and bad for you. It will show you entered a professional program and did very well. It will also red flag you as indecisive or a career-jumper... you will need to answer why you went through podiatry school and are now intending to do medical school. Just be prepared for that one.

Your missions and other experiences with health professionals (and the associated LORs) will only work to your advantage.

ladpm said:
Realistically, my chances for a US allopathic school are fading just as the US soccer team winning the world cup...so I've been tossing and turning last night...these are the schools I'm considering:
- US: Rosalind Franklin, UCLA-Drew, East Virginia, Albany Medical College, New York Medical
- DO: CCOM, Touro-Mare Island, Western
- IMG: St. George's

Wow, don't use the US soccer team as an anecdote... they are REALLY far worse off than simply a fading chance. :)

Well, let's see... non-trad friendly schools in your "price" range (US Allo) also include Creighton, Temple, Drexel, St. Louis U, and GW.

For DO schools, where you have the best shot IMO, I'd apply to all of these (remember, you said it-- "anywhere in the US"):
AT Still (KCOM)
CCOM
DMU
KCUMB (if you've had genetics as a UG)
LECOM (PA and FL)
Nova
NYCOM
Touro (CA and NV)
Pikeville (if you can stand being in the middle of nowhere-- i.e. no SO!)
UNECOM
VCOM
Western
WVSOM (mucho $$$)

:luck:
FD
 
Ladpm, looks like you're a good candidate for DO programs. I don't know what your other MCAT scores look like (some schools average them) but I think you will be a good applicant for DO schools.

I was coming back from a low GPA before applying to medschool (I just graduated with my MD from Tx) and thought about DO vs Carribian. I knew a resident who graduated from a carribian school and she told me to try my best to go to every DO school in the US before going to carrib. DO is cheaper (mostly) and they will get preference for residency over the FMGs. I know this from talking to residency directors when I was in medical school and also from my experience interviewing for residency last year.

You are in much better shape than you realize. Depending on which state you are in and a few other factors (physician parents, minority status, etc) you may get into an MD program.

Good luck.
 
Thanks, everyone. It is a daunting thing to consider, especially when I just took the risk of leaving work to complete this MBA. Doing so provided the trigger for me to really evaluate things to see what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. This may or may not be it. I suppose the nice thing would be that if I took my shot and failed to get into a program, I would still have a strong MBA I could fall back on, not that I would phrase it that way in an interview.

As for the "one school" issue, I have some important geographical concerns that I would like to be able to continue to handle. My girlfriend (maybe more one day) has a solid job here locally, I grew up here, my parents still live here and my father is handicapped (MS), and I would like to practice here when I finish school. Based on what I have been told and what I read on the EVMS website, the fact that I am from here and would want to practice here would be in my favor to get into that program. Additionally, in my 5+ years as a drug rep I have made many contacts with prominent area physicians with associations with the school, many of whom would certainly write me letters of recommendation. That certainly wouldn't hurt.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I am still in the analysis phase of this decision and I still have the rest of the year to decide as I complete my MBA. It is a lot to think about, including how I would pay for it (maybe military scholarship/loan repay program, maybe sell my house and pay lots of cash, we'll see...).
 
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oldpro said:
I say yes but widely, you have a shot but it may not be the school you hoped for. If the rest of your app is good I think the good GPA with good volunteering and LORS can really make the diff on this.

Good Luck. :luck:

What does "apply broadly" really mean? People always have stories about a school they have heard of someone getting in with similar numbers. But it's one person at this school, another at that school...often times it is a state school that doesn't have as competitive stats as some, which is meaningless to out of staters... So you're going on rumors: "I've heard school X takes a lot of non-traditional students.", or "I know a lot of people get into school Y with lower scores as long as you have X, Y and Z..." There really doesn't seem to be a way to narrow down 125 schools based on information like that.

So then you try the mean MCAT thing, which I did last night... Leaving out the state schools that take almost no out of staters, there are about 7 that have mean MCAT's listed below 29. And they have their little caveats, too, like Ponce, PR where you need to speak spanish fluently if you have a prayer as an OOS applicant. Or Howard that reports taking 96% minorities.

So what does apply broadly really mean? Just randomly throw your money out there - pick some schools and pray?!! :confused:
 
Apply broadly means apply to schools all over the place. When I was applying I found a book which gave a breakdown of schools and their average MCAT and GPAs. I applied to all of my instate schools in Tx (there are 7 I think) and then applied to the out of state schools that were less competative, then all of the DO schools. I didn't get interviews at all of the MD programs but did get interviews at every DO school that I applied to.

There is nothing wrong with DO. If you want to do ortho it will make it harder for you to obtain a residency but not impossible. (ortho is one of the most competative residencies to acquire) Most of the people I know went to a DO program because they couldn't get into an MD program. They are still fine physicians and many of them got good residencies. You don't have to be on board with the DO philosophy to go to the program and get your license. I mean, if most people were truely into the philosophy you wouldn't see them going into anesthesiology, radiology, surgery, etc.

If you ever see OldManDave around here you may want to ask him what he did. I forgot how many schools he applied to but I remember it to be alot!! I don't remember the cost but it seems like it was fairly expensive to apply to many schools because some of them have a secondary application expense.
 
burntcrispy said:
Apply broadly means apply to schools all over the place. When I was applying I found a book which gave a breakdown of schools and their average MCAT and GPAs. I applied to all of my instate schools in Tx (there are 7 I think) and then applied to the out of state schools that were less competative, then all of the DO schools. I didn't get interviews at all of the MD programs but did get interviews at every DO school that I applied to.

There is nothing wrong with DO. If you want to do ortho it will make it harder for you to obtain a residency but not impossible. (ortho is one of the most competative residencies to acquire) Most of the people I know went to a DO program because they couldn't get into an MD program. They are still fine physicians and many of them got good residencies. You don't have to be on board with the DO philosophy to go to the program and get your license. I mean, if most people were truely into the philosophy you wouldn't see them going into anesthesiology, radiology, surgery, etc.

If you ever see OldManDave around here you may want to ask him what he did. I forgot how many schools he applied to but I remember it to be alot!! I don't remember the cost but it seems like it was fairly expensive to apply to many schools because some of them have a secondary application expense.

Well I'm pretty sure DO is a better fit for me anyway. But because I'm interested in ortho, which I know is ridiculously competitive in the first place, I've been trying to increase my odds for residency by going the MD route. If I wasn't interested in ortho, I would just apply DO, frankly.

I just haven't seen that many out of state schools where the few people they take don't have to have stellar numbers. Like I said, I've gone through the MSAR for avg scores & gpa's - and US News, etc... There aren't many out there.

Did you land up going MD or DO?
 
To me, "apply broadly" means that you study the MSAR and pick a group of schools - a few that are a "stretch" (usually meaning that the average matriculant has somewhat higher stats than you do) and a wide range of schools where your stats would be competitive (excluding schools that charge such outrageous tuition that you wouldn't pay it or that are located in a place you wouldn't go - don't apply to a school that you know up-front you wouldn't attend - it's a waste of your time and theirs). You'll hear people talk about "safety schools" but, IMHO, that's nonsense - nobody has a slam dunk to any medical school. Always apply to your state-supported schools - they're a terrific value. Usually, "apply broadly" is going to be limited to how much you can afford - secondaries are expensive, often $60 - $100 each - plus $30 to AMCAS for each school. 10 schools is light, 20 is definitely "applying broadly" - most people are probably in-between. More than 20, to me, is a potential problem - it's too much money, you'll start making your secondary responses bland and cookie-cutter rather than making each secondary "tailored" to that school, and you may run out of travel funds for interviews. Fair warning: you can end-up investing several thousand dollars into this process between AMCAS, secondaries, travel expenses, new clothes, etc.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
What does "apply broadly" really mean?
I hear your frustration, Orthodoc. I'm applying this year as an older nontrad taking the August MCAT. I would literally be willing to go to any med school almost anywhere. How do you whittle down from 122 schools to something acceptable?

1. NonTrad Friendly- Some school flat out does not take a lot of older or nontraditional applicants. USN&WR has percentages for this (though some schools refuse to report). Some schools have reputations for being nontrad friendly, some have reputations for not. This is not make or break, but can help with your decision making.

2. Research- If you don't have a research background, you can consider dropping several schools. I killed Stanford and University of Utah for this reason.

3. Out of State- You can kill LOTS with this. If you dig deep enough into schools you're looking at, you can find that some defacto do not take folks with no state background, regardless of policy (UC Davis hasn't taken an OOS ina few years). Some schools look like they take some, but if you inquire, you'll find those they do take are actually born and bred locals who lost state citizenship by studying UG somewhere else.

If you look click on my mdapplicants link below, you'll see the 32 schools <sigh> I applied to. All are confirmed for okay for older nontrads with no research and acceptable to OOS students (to one degree or another). If you rule out California and Texas, you should have a list of about 22.
 
notdeadyet said:
I hear your frustration, Orthodoc. I'm applying this year as an older nontrad taking the August MCAT. I would literally be willing to go to any med school almost anywhere. How do you whittle down from 122 schools to something acceptable?

1. NonTrad Friendly- Some school flat out does not take a lot of older or nontraditional applicants. USN&WR has percentages for this (though some schools refuse to report). Some schools have reputations for being nontrad friendly, some have reputations for not. This is not make or break, but can help with your decision making.

2. Research- If you don't have a research background, you can consider dropping several schools. I killed Stanford and University of Utah for this reason.

3. Out of State- You can kill LOTS with this. If you dig deep enough into schools you're looking at, you can find that some defacto do not take folks with no state background, regardless of policy (UC Davis hasn't taken an OOS ina few years). Some schools look like they take some, but if you inquire, you'll find those they do take are actually born and bred locals who lost state citizenship by studying UG somewhere else.

If you look click on my mdapplicants link below, you'll see the 32 schools <sigh> I applied to. All are confirmed for okay for older nontrads with no research and acceptable to OOS students (to one degree or another). If you rule out California and Texas, you should have a list of about 22.
I was in the same boat last yr, I used USN&WR, filtered them down by mcat +4 points, then go from there. some of the schools like North dakota or only for WITCHA residents. some North Carolina schools, no out of state. that left around 30 or so. texas is a whole seperate application, they have 5 schools. DO, also a seperate application, has 22+ schools. and there's always the islands/mexico. so it's going to be costly....but 1 letter is worth it! good luck!!
 
I ended up at an MD program. But it was a little easier for me because I was a Tx resident and there were 7 school there. The state schools in Tx have to take 90% Tx residents, with many of those schools having 200 spots/class which ment good odds for me. The average MCAT at most of them (5 yrs ago) was about 27 so they weren't extra competative. Two of the schools were very non trad friendly. I ended up with interviews at 4 of the Tx schools and with 33% of those with interviews getting in I figured I had a good chance of staying in Tx. So, I decided on cancelling most of my out of state interviews. It worked out pretty well for me. I really didn't expect to get that many interviews since my GPA was about 3.2 if I remember correctly and that's right at the bottom of the bell curve of where most applicants get interviews around here (unless they are minority, have a parent that's a physician, or other connections- none of which applied to me)

I don't remember exactly which ones I applied to out of state but some I remember were: all DO programs, MCP Hahmanmen (sp?) in Philli, Creighton in Nebraska, maybe RUSH in Chicago, Tulaine in New Orleans (really dodged a bullet there!!) and some others I can't remember now. You really have to be careful with the out of state school because like you said, many of them hardly take out of state applicants. LSU in Louisiana, for instance, will not take any out of state students. If I remember correctly, the private schools take more out of state students but they are very expensive. MCP (now Drexel I think) was 32K/yr when I interviewed and they said it was going up. Tx school was around 8k/yr.

I don't know the name of the book that I used but I found it in a premed office at the university where I took post bac classes. It really laid out every school and the average scores for matriculants. I used it as a guide for my out of state apps.

Good luck with the process. I know its very frustrating but its really worth it once its all over with. I really feel for you guys because I was in your shoes not too long ago and it still stings looking back on it.
 
notdeadyet said:
I hear your frustration, Orthodoc. I'm applying this year as an older nontrad taking the August MCAT. I would literally be willing to go to any med school almost anywhere. How do you whittle down from 122 schools to something acceptable?
You know, we ought to put together some sort of guide to applying for the older non-trad - applying is tough for anyone, but we have some of our own unique bumps in the road.

Your list is very well-researched. I noticed on your MDApps that you're 34 - therefore you avoided some of the problems I had applying at 43. Both federal law and LCME standards prohibit age discrimination, but some schools just don't think people over 35 should be admitted, and it usually only takes one blackball on an adcom and you're done. This makes me foam at the mouth, but it's reality. MCW has traditionally been non-trad friendly. Drexel should also be on the older non-trad's list.

It is also absolutely true that osteopathic schools, in general, have been more friendly to older non-trads with competitive stats. If you support the osteopathic philosophy, it's a great choice. I evaluated osteopathy thoroughly (a top-drawer osteopathic school is based in my hometown) but made a first choice of allopathic for personal reasons. I applied to all UCs that take out-of-staters and got a secondary from UCLA, but not a great deal of interest (although I'm going to take my lovely matching set of University of California rejection letters and hang them over the commode or something).

If I can make a hometown plug, I think an older non-trad should consider The University of Oklahoma College of Medicine. I have concluded that the older non-trad's biggest challenge is getting the interview - so that you can get in and tell your story. OU bases interviews on a MCAT/GPA formula without consideration of other factors (that part comes post-interview). I was in the first interview group (based on competitiveness) and fell in love with the place. OU is USNWR-ranked in primary care (not high, partially because OU is only 45% primary care grads) but has an excellent reputation. The school also has David Boren as its president - he was a well-known US Senator, and he is getting new funding for OUHSC left and right - there is a lot of new construction and new money coming in - it's an exciting place right now. The oldest member of the Class of 2010 is 54 years old (yay - I'm not even the oldest in my class!). I was accepted with a scholarship and couldn't be happier. We even got exlawgrrl, who is a frequent poster and a top-drawer non-trad candidate.

OU can take 10-15% OOS out of a class of 162. People with ties to the state do get preference. The odds are no worse than most other OOS med schools, though, and I do recommend them as non-trad friendly.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
Well I'm pretty sure DO is a better fit for me anyway. But because I'm interested in ortho, which I know is ridiculously competitive in the first place, I've been trying to increase my odds for residency by going the MD route. If I wasn't interested in ortho, I would just apply DO, frankly.

Hey, no worries. There are DO residency slots for ortho (which, I might add, MDs are not eligible for!!). So you actually increase your chances in a sense... you could apply to osteo AND allo ortho residencies (just do well on your boards!). I actually spent a few months with a DO orthopoed surgeon... he practiced alongside allopaths (in a private ortho practice) but had gone through the DO ortho residency system.

Actually, if you think about it, DOs are REALLY well prepared for orthopaedics. They spend so much more time intensely studying the musculoskeletal system than you do in allopathic school. It's such a natural fit. :thumbup:
 
FDoRoML said:
Hey, no worries. There are DO residency slots for ortho (which, I might add, MDs are not eligible for!!). So you actually increase your chances in a sense... you could apply to osteo AND allo ortho residencies (just do well on your boards!). I actually spent a few months with a DO orthopoed surgeon... he practiced alongside allopaths (in a private ortho practice) but had gone through the DO ortho residency system.

Actually, if you think about it, DOs are REALLY well prepared for orthopaedics. They spend so much more time intensely studying the musculoskeletal system than you do in allopathic school. It's such a natural fit. :thumbup:

That's kinda what I was thinkin', too! But DO's can apply for BOTH allo and osteo matches? How's that work? Aren't you obligated to enter a program that you match into? So if you match into one of both, uhh - what happens?!
 
Orthodoc40 said:
That's kinda what I was thinkin', too! But DO's can apply for BOTH allo and osteo matches? How's that work? Aren't you obligated to enter a program that you match into? So if you match into one of both, uhh - what happens?!

First you need to take both the COMLEX and USMLE (some DO schools make you take both, some make the USMLE optional)... do well, as goes without saying probably!

I asked a few people this when I interviewed at DO schools... they mentioned the DO match is earlier than the allo match so a lot are expected to go with the DO match they get instead of waiting to see if an allo pans out. Some schools are really picky about this, some don't care as much. I think current students from schools you're interested in could answer this better than I.

Another thing that's actually an advantage about DO schools is that they MAKE you do away rotations (most don't have enough local slots for everyone to hang around for the whole 3rd and 4th year clinical stuff). This might sound bad (to me it did, b/c it meant guranteed months away from my family) but it's also an advantage because your away rotations are basically interviews for residency. You try and do rotations where you'd like to match, give it a good show and also evaluate the environment for yourself. Unlike allo away rotations, DOs predominantly match where they rotated (allo seems to be hit or miss unless it's a smaller program-- but I've heard that very few allo rotators match in competetive surgical specialties at their rotation sites).

Honestly, for ortho, if I got a match in a osteo slot I think I'd just stick with it. I've seen DO orthos working alongside MD orthos in many cases so I think there's not much of a stigma there (especially in DO-friendly states). And it's only going to get better for DOs in the U.S. So, honestly, I tend to see them as equal (and in some cases, better) for ortho. It can be a pretty malignant residency environment (I know a few MD orthos) but at least the DO I know really had a blast in his residency and fellowship. And he's a darned good surgeon and a kind clinician (the two don't always go hand in hand!!).
 
I am certainly no expert on the osteopathic match - but I believe orthodoc40 is correct. If an osteopathic graduate enters into both the osteopathic and the allopathic match, he/she is required to withdraw from the allopathic match if he/she matches into an osteopathic residency first. I think those are the match rules, not dependent on school - I would just be interested to know if that's not correct - that's what I've always read, if I'm remembering correctly.
 
FDoRoML said:
Another thing that's actually an advantage about DO schools is that they MAKE you do away rotations (most don't have enough local slots for everyone to hang around for the whole 3rd and 4th year clinical stuff). This might sound bad (to me it did, b/c it meant guranteed months away from my family) but it's also an advantage because your away rotations are basically interviews for residency. You try and do rotations where you'd like to match, give it a good show and also evaluate the environment for yourself. Unlike allo away rotations, DOs predominantly match where they rotated (allo seems to be hit or miss unless it's a smaller program-- but I've heard that very few allo rotators match in competetive surgical specialties at their rotation sites).

Honestly, for ortho, if I got a match in a osteo slot I think I'd just stick with it. I've seen DO orthos working alongside MD orthos in many cases so I think there's not much of a stigma there (especially in DO-friendly states). And it's only going to get better for DOs in the U.S. So, honestly, I tend to see them as equal (and in some cases, better) for ortho. It can be a pretty malignant residency environment (I know a few MD orthos) but at least the DO I know really had a blast in his residency and fellowship. And he's a darned good surgeon and a kind clinician (the two don't always go hand in hand!!).

Interesting! I'd love to know where he did that residency & fellowship!! I'd like to avoid the typical ortho environment you're referring to - LOL!!

Anyway like NonTradTulsa says - I thought I'd read that when you sign up for the match you sign a legally binding agreement to go where you get matched. That may only be true for allo, but it seems like it would have to be for both?? If anyone knows for sure - please do enlighten us.

NonTradTulsa - I think the idea of compiling that list is a great one! It's obviously easier if you have the MCAT scores though. I'd love to apply to some of these places, but when your scores aren't there, even if they are friendlier toward us 'old folk', it isn't really gonna help too much, I don't think...unless you know otherwise?
 
I have a feeling the osteo match covers their butts and also is a binding contract. When I questioned a few about how they were going to choose, they basically said it was wise to try and get the boards in early and see what your scores are-- if your USMLE is below a 215 (unless you have killer other quals), osteo match might be better anyway if you're going competetive like ortho. If your boards are both really good, then you have a decision to make-- gamble or don't gamble? Of course, you've already done an away rotation by this point, so you might have a place you really like and that really likes you, so it becomes moot and you'll just go osteo anyway.

But hey, if you can handle a balancing act that is the med school application process... anything is easy after that! :laugh:
 
I dont know if i should apply early... or even apply..

I had a terrible time during my undergrad.. had some health probs, etc.. my science GPA from Northwestern was like around a 2.0 then my overall was about a 2.8.

then i took postbac course work for one year at local university (had a sci/overall gpa of 3.86)... Then went to another university (a more competitive school) and got myself a 2nd bachelor's degree in biology in one year. now i have a postbac sci gpa of 3.7 and postbac overall of 3.6.

but adding all together.. since my undergrad gpa from Northwestern sucked.. i only have a 2.7 sci and 2.96 overall

i took april mcat.. got a 9 on phy sci, a 10 on bio sci.. and a horrible 5 on verbal (prob bc english isnt my first language).. i plan on taking the mcat again this aug..

i am going to an one year masters program in the fall.. so i will have a separate grad gpa..

i dunno if i should apply now since i have my personal statement ready or should i just wait after i get my Aug mcat score in Oct....but then the tight deadline and timeline

advice, suggestions PLEASE!!!! :confused:
 
oldpro said:
Good:
Military background

Is this way too far down in a thread to ask a question - we'll see.

OldPro (or anyone) - you put a military background in the favorable column. Don't suppose you could point me toward other threads or internet resources conerning this assertion?

I too am prior military and am quite interested in returning if I get accepted/get through medical school. I've tossed around the idea of elaborating on this in my personal statement but have often wondered if it is a bad idea. Seems like it's very trendy to hate the military/gov't these days. Best to keep these ambitions under wraps or talk it up?
 
I think you should....and now!

Apply to all of the above and see how you do. I sucked at the MCAT but I got into both MD and DO.


Apply to 40 schools, DO MD and an isle school as a safety.


Put everything into your applications the first time around and get everything in asap! MOst of your secondaries before Sept!


Trust me, timing is a much bigger factor that most applicants realize.



The only way to know is to try.

I think you have a great shot.

With this strategy you'll get in somewhere and in the end that's what matters.

just my opinion,

PhDtoDO
 
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