Should I look into quitting PhD halfway through MSTP program? Or change my attitude and power through?

[narla_hotep]

I'm currently a 5th year MSTP student, 3rd year in graduate school. My time in graduate school started off well, but all of my dreams, expectations, and self worth have been progressively crushed as I go along. At first it was just a lot of lab experiments failing, which made my existing anxiety worse, but to outside observers I was progressing normally for my stage of training. But around Year 2 my relationship with my PI started suffering, as he started getting annoyed and telling me to make my own decisions about experimental design, ask him fewer basic/silly questions, manage my time better, etc. I got the sense he was never quite happy with me. Now it's 3rd year and outside people are starting to notice my struggle too... I managed to pass quals, but then I had my 3rd thesis committee meeting a few months ago and the committee was quite concerned with my unpolished/preliminary data, lack of progress, etc. My PI told me later that they were concerned about me, and that I really need to get my crap together for the next committee meeting and any other presentations, etc.

I also recently applied for the F30 twice and both times my score was too low to even be discussed at the review meeting. My only publications are a review article, an intro to another article, and two articles I barely helped with data collection and proofreading. More concerningly, I have barely any data for my actual thesis, and all my data is just ****ty - missing a control here, a replicate there, the cells were in bad condition there, I lost a file in here, my knock-in mouse line didn't work, etc etc etc. My PI says not much if any of it is publication quality, and I need to redo a lot of it.

From the outside, it just looks like I had one bad committee meeting and can still get back on track. But to me it feels like a deeper problem. It just makes me nauseated to look at my own data some days, or midway through the day in lab I shut down and can't function and want to go home. I wish I could either quit the PhD, or restart it from the beginning without all of the wasted time. I clearly don't have the brainpower or correct mode of scientific thinking for the PhD, but part of me says I should just power through and publish at least something small... Is a mediocre PhD obtained at the cost of my mental health (which is already in the toilet, in addition to anxiety I think I have depression, and my psychiatrist thinks ADHD) worth it? I don't want to quit if it means burning bridges with my PI , the MSTP program, other students, and making it hard to apply for residency, etc. Realistically, I think I will just go forward, take a 5th PhD year and finish with the bare minimum... But do you guys think quitting the PhD and returning to medical school is a real option here?

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[tr]

If you have AD/HD, have you tried treating it? Assuming you meet diagnostic criteria, I wouldn't make any major life decisions before giving yourself a couple of months on a stimulant and see whether your performance and interest improve.

 

[narla_hotep]

Thanks for replying. I started on treatment for the ADHD a month ago. Basically while I'm on the medication I do feel a lot more motivated and focused on lab work, which has been a godsend in terms of being more productive - but I still have moments where I feel like it's too little, too late, and the sheer amount of things I have to play catch-up on are overwhelming. I was doing great for the first couple weeks of the ADHD treatment, but now I feel like the sadness about the PhD is coming back and I wonder what's the point of it all. I'm not actually diagnosed with depression because it comes and goes and doesn't quite meet clinical criteria, but am on antidepressants for anxiety anyway. I think what's triggering this resurgence of the bad vibes is that I have to give a lot of presentations and poster talks in the next few months, and I am realizing how little high-quality data I have to present on both of my projects I'm currently working on. It feels like **** to prepare a presentation based mostly on someone else's data, or with bad quality data. That's fine for a first year, but not a 3rd year, ya know? But I see what you mean, hopefully with more time of increased productivity it's not too late to salvage this.

 

[AHDCard]

I would base your answer off questions like: Are you reasonably confident that you can finish your PhD by year 5? Do you think you would do a competitive specialty? What is your career goal at this point? (clinical academic medicine, academic physician-scientist, community practice, private practice, non-clinical, etc.). If you drop out, can you at least leave with a masters?

If you're reasonably sure you can finish your PhD within 2 years with your mental health intact, I'm inclined to recommend just pushing through it, especially if you want to stay in academic medicine or are interested in a competitive specialty. You'll get MS3 and 4 paid for too. If you think there is still a possibility that you will pursue a career involving substantial research, then I would try to finish...

On the other hand, if your PhD experience has made you swear off anything academic or research related, and your goal is community primary care as an FM doc then I'd probably drop out...

 

[narla_hotep]

I should be able to finish by year 5 if I get my crap together this year. I'm just sad that I can't do it in 4 like was my original goal and like most people in my program do. Most people who do a 5th year have some major extenuating circumstance like having a baby, switching to a different lab midway through, etc... I haven't had anything super major wreck my life, but lots of smaller things add up like: Planning a wedding and getting married, my grandmother dying, searching for and buying a condo, getting a puppy, having a (partial) mental breakdown that led to me getting diagnosed with autism and ADHD... etc.

If I dropped out I could get a Masters at this point, but it would just look really bad. As for career choices... I'm leaning toward pathology, mainly focused on clinical path. I could dabble in research, like I haven't sworn it off entirely, but can't ever see myself being a PI or having my own lab. I have also previously considered doing internal med and specializing in something like heme/onc or rheumatology, but not sure. Maybe going back to the clinic in med school will reignite my interest in IM.

 

[mudfud26]

I should be able to finish by year 5 if I get my crap together this year. I'm just sad that I can't do it in 4 like was my original goal and like most people in my program do. Most people who do a 5th year have some major extenuating circumstance like having a baby, switching to a different lab midway through, etc... I haven't had anything super major wreck my life, but lots of smaller things add up like: Planning a wedding and getting married, my grandmother dying, searching for and buying a condo, getting a puppy, having a (partial) mental breakdown that led to me getting diagnosed with autism and ADHD... etc.

My bet is that most people in your program that finish in four years don’t have an untreated disability. My husband has ADHD, and the issues with your data sound like similar issues he had at work. Feeling like you could do better can certainly cause depression and anxiety, especially when you can’t just *focus* like everyone else. Being on the right medication and dose can make a HUGE difference in your productivity and feelings of efficacy.

My advice is to keep In contact with your psychiatrist to get your medication and dose right so that you can focus on your work. When you feel better, then you may find it much easier to execute your experiments.

When my husband was first getting treatment, he used the pomodoro method at his engineering job. He would work for 15 minutes then walk or fiddle with something at his desk for 5 minutes. Perhaps you could plan an experiment for 15 minutes, then walk around the building for 5 minutes, then do your experiment? You can change the time interval if you want (I used 45 and 15 for MCAT studying), but the concept of regular breaks to unwind is what’s important.

 

[dl2dp2]

I should be able to finish by year 5 if I get my crap together this year. I'm just sad that I can't do it in 4 like was my original goal and like most people in my program do. Most people who do a 5th year have some major extenuating circumstance like having a baby, switching to a different lab midway through, etc... I haven't had anything super major wreck my life, but lots of smaller things add up like: Planning a wedding and getting married, my grandmother dying, searching for and buying a condo, getting a puppy, having a (partial) mental breakdown that led to me getting diagnosed with autism and ADHD... etc.

If I dropped out I could get a Masters at this point, but it would just look really bad. As for career choices... I'm leaning toward pathology, mainly focused on clinical path. I could dabble in research, like I haven't sworn it off entirely, but can't ever see myself being a PI or having my own lab. I have also previously considered doing internal med and specializing in something like heme/onc or rheumatology, but not sure. Maybe going back to the clinic in med school will reignite my interest in IM.

1. nobody cares if you drop out.
2. nobody cares if you drop out.
3. nobody cares if you drop out.
4. nobody in pathology cares if you drop out.
5. your basic science PI's opinion is worthless in the clinical world.
6. your basic science PI's opinion is worthless if you don't work in science.
7. Most basic science research is worthless.
8. The projects which you will finish is likely worthless for your career anyway.
9. There are ample opportunity to reengage in research later on if that's what you want to "dabble", and nobody will remember or care that you left PhD because you want to accelerate your clinical training.

This idea that if you drop out it would "look bad" is pure nonsense.

The longer I work in academic medicine the more I realized how little pure PhD's opinions matter in general to MDs, especially procedural MDs. It's also remarkable how little your success as a PI is related at all to your technical competence. It's basically a job that's mainly about writing grants. If you like writing grants, then be a PI. If you don't, don't. People's track record only matters to the extent of the grants being written. I.e. nobody really talks about your actual technical competence, and your training, etc. etc. and plenty of people raise a ton of money without any technical competence, which is then outsourced.

The only set of circumstances that would argue for not dropping out is if you think you'll have fun finishing your PhD. Otherwise, drop out and get the masters *immediately*.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Slightly unrelated but having a "science" background does give one a better approach to clinical questions. Even in academics, there's something that having done science, basic or otherwise, that gives people better insight into asking not only questions, but the right questions. Or more thoughtful questions.

I have to often sit through clinical trainee "research" projects and most of the time, there is no hypothesis or no understanding that the question they want to answer can't be by the project they (and their academic mentor) came up with because the design was just plain awful. Like using meaningless or worse, just wrong, clinical metrics because they don't understand basic physiology. It's so painful and most of the clinical mentors in academics are blissfully unaware, because you can't know that you don't know if you didn't put in the effort to know that you don't know... (ya know).

I also agree though, if you are good at the political aspects of academics, the good politician can be successful by just surrounding themselves with the right people who are critical thinkers and doers and they can reap the reward, realizing that in reality, they know nothing beyond finding the right people to outsource to.

I would also agree that in general, when you are looking for a job after training, the ability to get said job is more dependent on 1) the field you picked, 2) the market of said field, 3) you're willingness to forego your "dream" job to get a job, and 4) luck that 1-3 happen so there is a job to pursue. The rest of it is mostly irrelevant.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Since you have a new diagnosis that seems related to the types of issues you’re having with focusing on, organizing, and managing your project, I would say wait a bit before deciding.

I would strongly recommend meeting with student services at your school to see if they can help you with strategies that work for people with ADHD to help you manage your day and tasks better. Then try those and your medication out and see where that gets you. Then you can reassess the question of whether or not to continue.

This is assuming you made the decision to do the PhD because you have a genuine interest in the research side.

I do agree with @SurfingDoctor that even if you don’t wind up doing rsearch, the PhD training gives you improved critical thinking and reasoning skills.