Should I still ask for a LOR/continue volunteering at this hospital?

[Nekrom]

Hi guys... so this may become a rant but I am really in a bad situation with the animal hospital I volunteer with right now. It is a big practice with 10+ vets and 30+ techs and I've been there since November. 8 hrs/wk during school weeks and full-time during winter holidays. Everything was going very fine, I started from the kennels and worked my way to do tech stuff. They taught me to draw blood and everything and even offered me a paid position (I rejected it because I wanted to shadow with the vets someday instead of stay with kennels)

Things started to go down since last week. We got a new volunteer and she was placed right in the doctors' office instead of starting from nurses/kennels. Their reason was that I am already a great help to the nurses that they don't want to place another person there. I asked if I could trade position with the new volunteer someday but got really blurry responses.

Another incident happened this week. We had a stray ragdoll for public adoption at the hospital, so I told my friend about it bc she always wanted a ragdoll cat. I called the owner of the hospital and got her permission, and another doctor went through the procedures, then my friend took the cat home. After that, the owner of the hospital called back and said she want the cat back because one of her old clients want the cat, which is a very unreasonable request. Obviously, my friend doesn't want to send the cat back, so the whole hospital began to blame me and pressure me because they don't want to get in trouble with their boss. They even threatened to call the police on my friend to retrieve the cat, which is really insane!! We returned the cat but my friend got into a big argument with the doctor and the owner of the hospital. Now both of the doctors are really mad at me (while I didn't do anything wrong?).

I don't know if I should keep volunteering with them because they don't want me to shadow the doctors nor I think the doctors are going to say anything nice about me bc they are so pissed... If I write down 300+ hours for this hospital but without an LOR (I'm applying to Cornell), will the admissions think negatively about me?

I apologize that this became really long. Thank you so much for reading

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[Ashgirl]

Hi guys... so this may become a rant but I am really in a bad situation with the animal hospital I volunteer with right now. It is a big practice with 10+ vets and 30+ techs and I've been there since November. 8 hrs/wk during school weeks and full-time during winter holidays. Everything was going very fine, I started from the kennels and worked my way to do tech stuff. They taught me to draw blood and everything and even offered me a paid position (I rejected it because I wanted to shadow with the vets someday instead of stay with kennels)

Things started to go down since last week. We got a new volunteer and she was placed right in the doctors' office instead of starting from nurses/kennels. Their reason was that I am already a great help to the nurses that they don't want to place another person there. I asked if I could trade position with the new volunteer someday but got really blurry responses.

Another incident happened this week. We had a stray ragdoll for public adoption at the hospital, so I told my friend about it bc she always wanted a ragdoll cat. I called the owner of the hospital and got her permission, and another doctor went through the procedures, then my friend took the cat home. After that, the owner of the hospital called back and said she want the cat back because one of her old clients want the cat, which is a very unreasonable request. Obviously, my friend doesn't want to send the cat back, so the whole hospital began to blame me and pressure me because they don't want to get in trouble with their boss. They even threatened to call the police on my friend to retrieve the cat, which is really insane!! We returned the cat but my friend got into a big argument with the doctor and the owner of the hospital. Now both of the doctors are really mad at me (while I didn't do anything wrong?).

I don't know if I should keep volunteering with them because they don't want me to shadow the doctors nor I think the doctors are going to say anything nice about me bc they are so pissed... If I write down 300+ hours for this hospital but without an LOR (I'm applying to Cornell), will the admissions think negatively about me?

I apologize that this became really long. Thank you so much for reading

You can surely write down hours without having an LOR attached. I definitely didn't have an LoR for 2/4 of the vet clinics I volunteered at. I personally believe in this situation, if you asked for an LOR, you might get a nasty (or at least mediocre) letter that will 100% affect your application.

My two cents: If you aren't having a good experience here, it might very well be time to move on to another clinic.

 

[Emmy Senpai]

Hi guys... so this may become a rant but I am really in a bad situation with the animal hospital I volunteer with right now. It is a big practice with 10+ vets and 30+ techs and I've been there since November. 8 hrs/wk during school weeks and full-time during winter holidays. Everything was going very fine, I started from the kennels and worked my way to do tech stuff. They taught me to draw blood and everything and even offered me a paid position (I rejected it because I wanted to shadow with the vets someday instead of stay with kennels)

Things started to go down since last week. We got a new volunteer and she was placed right in the doctors' office instead of starting from nurses/kennels. Their reason was that I am already a great help to the nurses that they don't want to place another person there. I asked if I could trade position with the new volunteer someday but got really blurry responses.

Another incident happened this week. We had a stray ragdoll for public adoption at the hospital, so I told my friend about it bc she always wanted a ragdoll cat. I called the owner of the hospital and got her permission, and another doctor went through the procedures, then my friend took the cat home. After that, the owner of the hospital called back and said she want the cat back because one of her old clients want the cat, which is a very unreasonable request. Obviously, my friend doesn't want to send the cat back, so the whole hospital began to blame me and pressure me because they don't want to get in trouble with their boss. They even threatened to call the police on my friend to retrieve the cat, which is really insane!! We returned the cat but my friend got into a big argument with the doctor and the owner of the hospital. Now both of the doctors are really mad at me (while I didn't do anything wrong?).

I don't know if I should keep volunteering with them because they don't want me to shadow the doctors nor I think the doctors are going to say anything nice about me bc they are so pissed... If I write down 300+ hours for this hospital but without an LOR (I'm applying to Cornell), will the admissions think negatively about me?

I apologize that this became really long. Thank you so much for reading

I would definitely find another volunteer position/job somewhere else, asap. Also I would not have given the cat back at all... it's outrageous that they'd let you give the cat to your friend and then ask for it back!!

 

[LetItSnow]

Hi guys... so this may become a rant but I am really in a bad situation with the animal hospital I volunteer with right now. It is a big practice with 10+ vets and 30+ techs and I've been there since November. 8 hrs/wk during school weeks and full-time during winter holidays. Everything was going very fine, I started from the kennels and worked my way to do tech stuff. They taught me to draw blood and everything and even offered me a paid position (I rejected it because I wanted to shadow with the vets someday instead of stay with kennels)

Things started to go down since last week. We got a new volunteer and she was placed right in the doctors' office instead of starting from nurses/kennels. Their reason was that I am already a great help to the nurses that they don't want to place another person there. I asked if I could trade position with the new volunteer someday but got really blurry responses.

Another incident happened this week. We had a stray ragdoll for public adoption at the hospital, so I told my friend about it bc she always wanted a ragdoll cat. I called the owner of the hospital and got her permission, and another doctor went through the procedures, then my friend took the cat home. After that, the owner of the hospital called back and said she want the cat back because one of her old clients want the cat, which is a very unreasonable request. Obviously, my friend doesn't want to send the cat back, so the whole hospital began to blame me and pressure me because they don't want to get in trouble with their boss. They even threatened to call the police on my friend to retrieve the cat, which is really insane!! We returned the cat but my friend got into a big argument with the doctor and the owner of the hospital. Now both of the doctors are really mad at me (while I didn't do anything wrong?).

I don't know if I should keep volunteering with them because they don't want me to shadow the doctors nor I think the doctors are going to say anything nice about me bc they are so pissed... If I write down 300+ hours for this hospital but without an LOR (I'm applying to Cornell), will the admissions think negatively about me?

I apologize that this became really long. Thank you so much for reading

You may not like my comments. Take them as another perspective; I'm encouraging you to look outside your own interpretation of events.

With regard to the new volunteer ... it absolutely seems (and maybe even is - can't say without more info) unfair to you that you 'worked your way up' and she came in and got parked right in the doctor's office. But, maybe she has more experience. Maybe she directly asked for that (did you?). Maybe she is friends with one of the doctors, or a friend of the family, or etc. (That kind of thing may not seem fair, and to some extent it isn't, but it's also how the world works.)

Rather than be mad at them or her, be grateful for all the 'scut work' experience you did. It gives you an appreciation for what your future kennel works, vet assistants, and whatnot are going to have to do. It helps you understand that hey, maybe as a doctor you can jump in and clean up a mess in a kennel if you happen to have a spare moment and your entire technical staff is busy running bloodwork, getting a patient's pre-meds on board, etc. I generally am running ragged at work, but there are moments where I've seen all the patients, gotten my records in, and I'm just sitting there waiting for my nursing staff to take rads, run bloodwork, grab a blood pressure, two of them are tied up with an anesthetized patient getting it ready for me, etc. No reason I can't clean a kennel during that time and make their lives easier. So all that experience? It's good for you - it will make you a better doctor. Be grateful for it.

And since you don't really know why she is there and you aren't .... rather than plow forward with uncertain info, resolve it. Ask to sit down and speak with them and professionally articulate that it frustrates - and maybe hurts - you that you worked from the ground up and she's sitting right in the office getting the experience you thought you were working towards. Clarifying things will only help. And when you do, remember to think outside of just your needs. Their perspective matters, too.

With regard to the cat ... kinda a similar thing. I mean, sure, from the way you described it the whole thing sounds horribly unfair - stray cat, your friend felt she has adopted it, now she feels like they're asking her to 'unadopt' it. Not very cool. But maybe there was miscommunication there - maybe the doctor's understanding was your friend was fostering it. Or maybe there was some other miscommunication in there. Part of the reason I think that was the "threatened to call the police" .... that doesn't make sense if there was actual signed paperwork adopting the cat and turning it over to your friend, because they wouldn't have any case for calling the police. The police would say "so person X legitimately adopted the cat and now you want it back? tough." Maybe there was a medical bill to be paid and the understanding - on their part - was your friend would pay it, and she hasn't. Etc.

Bottom line .... what you've SAID certainly makes the hospital look bad, but as a doctor working in a busy hospital I can easily see that there could be other sides to this. I'd encourage you to find out their side.

With regard to continuing shadowing: I don't think you can make that decision until you clear the air with the doctors. If it's a misunderstanding, resolve it and things should be ok. If you can't resolve it or they really are the jerks you seem to be making them out to be, then move on and don't look back.

With regard to Cornell: They won't care if you have 300 hours from somewhere without an LOR from them. Obviously you'll have to have the required or more LORs from appropriate sources, but nobody expects an LOR from every single place you have more than X amount of hours.

 

[TrashPanda]

I believe Cornell used to not count hours from an experience unless you had a LOR to go along with it, but it looks like that's not the case anymore (and it's not the case for any other school, to my knowledge). You still need a letter from a vet, but it doesn't need to be from this hospital.

If there's a vet there you're on good terms with and who knows you well enough to write you a strong recommendation, then ask for a LOR. If not, then don't ask. (I would not recommend asking any of the doctors who you think are pissed at you.) Other hospital drama shouldn't matter.

I agree with LetItSnow- it's worth at least considering if there's another side you're not seeing. I'll also add that no workplace is perfect, and it's possible to get good experience from a place that's dysfunctional, especially if you can avoid the most dysfunctional aspects/people. If you don't feel it's possible there, then move on. It's nice to have at least one long-term position on your application (if nothing else, it can lead to better LORs), but it's not mandatory and diversity in experiences is also really important. It sounds like you don't want to continue there, so find someplace else- that's fine too.

 

[Nekrom]

You may not like my comments. Take them as another perspective; I'm encouraging you to look outside your own interpretation of events.

With regard to the new volunteer ... it absolutely seems (and maybe even is - can't say without more info) unfair to you that you 'worked your way up' and she came in and got parked right in the doctor's office. But, maybe she has more experience. Maybe she directly asked for that (did you?). Maybe she is friends with one of the doctors, or a friend of the family, or etc. (That kind of thing may not seem fair, and to some extent it isn't, but it's also how the world works.)

Rather than be mad at them or her, be grateful for all the 'scut work' experience you did. It gives you an appreciation for what your future kennel works, vet assistants, and whatnot are going to have to do. It helps you understand that hey, maybe as a doctor you can jump in and clean up a mess in a kennel if you happen to have a spare moment and your entire technical staff is busy running bloodwork, getting a patient's pre-meds on board, etc. I generally am running ragged at work, but there are moments where I've seen all the patients, gotten my records in, and I'm just sitting there waiting for my nursing staff to take rads, run bloodwork, grab a blood pressure, two of them are tied up with an anesthetized patient getting it ready for me, etc. No reason I can't clean a kennel during that time and make their lives easier. So all that experience? It's good for you - it will make you a better doctor. Be grateful for it.

And since you don't really know why she is there and you aren't .... rather than plow forward with uncertain info, resolve it. Ask to sit down and speak with them and professionally articulate that it frustrates - and maybe hurts - you that you worked from the ground up and she's sitting right in the office getting the experience you thought you were working towards. Clarifying things will only help. And when you do, remember to think outside of just your needs. Their perspective matters, too.

With regard to the cat ... kinda a similar thing. I mean, sure, from the way you described it the whole thing sounds horribly unfair - stray cat, your friend felt she has adopted it, now she feels like they're asking her to 'unadopt' it. Not very cool. But maybe there was miscommunication there - maybe the doctor's understanding was your friend was fostering it. Or maybe there was some other miscommunication in there. Part of the reason I think that was the "threatened to call the police" .... that doesn't make sense if there was actual signed paperwork adopting the cat and turning it over to your friend, because they wouldn't have any case for calling the police. The police would say "so person X legitimately adopted the cat and now you want it back? tough." Maybe there was a medical bill to be paid and the understanding - on their part - was your friend would pay it, and she hasn't. Etc.

Bottom line .... what you've SAID certainly makes the hospital look bad, but as a doctor working in a busy hospital I can easily see that there could be other sides to this. I'd encourage you to find out their side.

With regard to continuing shadowing: I don't think you can make that decision until you clear the air with the doctors. If it's a misunderstanding, resolve it and things should be ok. If you can't resolve it or they really are the jerks you seem to be making them out to be, then move on and don't look back.

With regard to Cornell: They won't care if you have 300 hours from somewhere without an LOR from them. Obviously you'll have to have the required or more LORs from appropriate sources, but nobody expects an LOR from every single place you have more than X amount of hours.

Thank you for such a thoughtful and thorough reply. Don't get me wrong - I truly enjoy working with kennels/nurse tech and hands-on procedure -that's why I invested most of my time and energy at this hospital. I really appreciate that they taught me to hold, pull blood, and even place IV catheters - I really don't think it would happen at other places! "Work the way up" is what they told me when they gave me the position - they said I would start from the kennels from the beginning, they would teach me more stuff and if I'm good, I'll be allowed to be a nurse tech with the vets.

Regarding the new volunteer, I asked her directly and she told me she had no prior vet experience. She said they just placed her with the doctors when she said she needed volunteering hours. The other nurses told me the reason she's there is because I am already trained as a nurse tech. They don't want to spend the time to train a new person from scratch. Plus if we trade positions, both of us will need training for the new tasks while now they only need to train her for office work. They told me to call the head nurse if I have any doubts (I'm out of town for school during his shifts). I called a few times and left both written and voice messages, haven't gotten an answer for over a week.

Regarding the cat, my friend was supposed to bring the cat back on the next surgery day for spaying and they will have her adoption papers ready by then. They only gave her all the medical records for the cat because the papers are not ready yet, but they did all the discharging procedures and scheduled the surgery under my friend's name. My friend even offered to pay for the procedures but they said no need to pay. The owner of the hospital was out of town when the whole thing happened. I called her first and she said yes to the adoption, and she'll let the doctor on site take care of the rest. I guess she yelled at that doctor for discharging the cat so that doctor started pushing me to get the cat back. Tbh I do think there might be a misunderstanding between the owner of the hospital and the on-site doctor, and I do think my friend should bring her back if it's a false discharge. I'm just upset because none of that has to do with me, I wasn't even there when the doctor and receptionists talked to my friend. I was outside walking dogs. But everyone, especially that doctor, blamed me for not being able to persuade my friend to bring back the cat and put her into trouble with her boss. I had to go to my friend's house and tell her to give it up. In the end they got the cat back and I thought I did them a favor bc it really wasn't my responsibility to talk to my friend and get it back... but the doctors were still upset that they got yelled at by my friend. So yeah I didn't want to blame the hospital for trying to take back a cat... my friend was being stubborn as well. I'm more upset because it has nothing to do with me, I might have even helped them, but they are still mad at me.

 

[AllieLane]

This pissed me off. They are taking advantage of you because they know that you are applying for vet school and you are vulnerable to them. I hate it when people take advantage of other people because they feel "powerful". You already contributed free labor and they now also bullied you because they know you will want their letters. I can assure you that even if your friend didn't give the cat back, you and your friend did not do anything wrong as you had went through all the adoption procedures with the owner's permission. And eventually we see that they got mad whether or not your friend returned the cat, then why bother?

To answer your question, I don't think this will be a big problem if you stop volunteering there, don't ask for letter, but still report these hours. Cornell especially has a formula where GRE and GPA weigh 50% and everything else although weigh 50%. I am waitlisted at Cornell this year and I have very low clinical hours (with letter though), lower than average GPA, and thousands of hours of animal and research experience without a letter. From talking to current students, not everyone admitted had a lot clinical experience when they applied. So I don't think this lack of letter on this 300 hours will be the end of the world. Also if you feel that they won't write a good letter for you anyways, then again, why bother?

What you will do is totally up to you, but in my opinion a good person and mentor is always happy to help and want to see their mentees succeed. I've been working with vets who eagerly wants to show me things and let me get my hands wet; also one vet who kicked me out of the treatment room because she was not confident herself and didn't want people to observe. At the end of the day you will learn more and become a better person from working under nurturing mentors. This is true not just in veterinary medicine, but in life as well.

Edit: sorry that I didn't read your last reply before typing and now that I have read it, the cat case was more complicated than I thought. So I probably said things that were too strong... I apologize for this.
But other than that, still they already got mad and they tried to put all the pressure on you. I'd be very frustrated as well if I were you.

 

[flameshock]

I'm not going to weigh in on the cat thing, but I am a little confused about your overall position in this hospital. You're a volunteer, but they've 'trained' you as a tech, correct? And they don't want to shuffle you to a new area of the hospital because they would have to train you and the new girl?

This reads as sketchy as hell. It sounds like they are using you to fill basic staffing needs at the hospital, and don't want to disrupt flow of the practice. Which *might* be reasonable if you were a paid employee, but as a VOLUNTEER....

As you've laid out the situation, it doesn't sound like they are doing anything in your interest..only theirs. There are always other vet clinics and I would cut my losses and find somewhere else to put my time.

 

[pooter]

This place has some issues. Serious issues that are beyond your power to control. I'm in agreement with the other posters that it's time to find a new place to shadow. As for LORs, I'd consider asking for one when the time comes only if you have a strong relationship with a doctor who's not part of management and has minimal ties to the veterinarians who behaved badly (and if you can't get a better LOR from somewhere else). In a practice that large, you probably have at least a few docs who keep their heads down and have as much disdain for the drama as you do (and based on your suspicion that Owner Doctor yelled at Discharging Doctor and got them to call and threaten police action, I'd imagine the drama extends well beyond their treatment of volunteers). Before asking for an LOR, though, I'd want to either be very sure of the LOR vet's opinion of me or have had a candid conversation along the lines of "While I didn't part with management under the best of terms, I really appreciated what I learned from *you,* LOR Doctor. Are you comfortable recommending me?"

But, seriously, don't go back. And discreetly warn other pre-vets in your area if you can; if they do this to one volunteer, they'll do it to others.

 

[Coopah]

Whenever I asked for a LOR I always made sure to ask point blank if they could give me a great letter. If they couldn't they would tell me. This situation is difficult, but it looks like you've got a handle on things. If you do ask for a letter make sure to specify a great letter.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I'm not going to weigh in on the cat thing, but I am a little confused about your overall position in this hospital. You're a volunteer, but they've 'trained' you as a tech, correct? And they don't want to shuffle you to a new area of the hospital because they would have to train you and the new girl?

This reads as sketchy as hell. It sounds like they are using you to fill basic staffing needs at the hospital, and don't want to disrupt flow of the practice. Which *might* be reasonable if you were a paid employee, but as a VOLUNTEER....

As you've laid out the situation, it doesn't sound like they are doing anything in your interest..only theirs. There are always other vet clinics and I would cut my losses and find somewhere else to put my time.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but at a place with 30 techs?! Granted, every hospital is different, but I find it a bit odd that you're a volunteer who is placing catheters. It's different if they just pulled you aside and showed you the process, but are you regularly drawing blood, placing catheters, etc.? Generally, volunteers don't do that level of tech work for a multitude of reasons. If you feel you are taking the place of what could be an additional paid tech on staff, I'd consider either asking for that paid job or moving on. They should have insisted that you be paid an appropriate amount for your work when you turned down that job. You're acting as a tech for $0 an hour. Unless this is a charity/volunteer clinic (doesn't sound like it), that's unacceptable. However, you did say you declined the paycheck. No one can really say this hospital is abusing your time when they did offer you money.

I agree that you should meet with the appropriate person to professionally discuss the chances of you moving up to work with the doctors. If they say there's no chance, that's a perfectly good reason to professionally part ways-you're not in the position you had hoped you'd get, and you can get it elsewhere. That happens with paid jobs all the time, sometimes you just reach an end point with your current job and have to move on.