Should I wait to apply?

[beansontoast]

Hi!

I'm thinking of applying this year and I was hoping you guys could give me some insight about whether to apply now or wait. Here's my deal:

Graduated from 'top-20' school last May and currently working as a research tech in a research hospital/med school.

I'm most worried about my GPA. My final cGPA was 3.54 and sGPA was 3.25. My major included Bio and the humanities, but I really didn't take too many upper level bio classes until my senior (so a year of post-bacc would change my sGPA dramatically). Mostly upward trend except that I messed up orgo twice and got a C+ in both lectures, mostly due to time management issues (I got an A- in the lab, though..?).

I hadn't always planned on being a doctor, so my ECs are pretty scattered:

4 years ESL tutor for migrant workers, 3 on the exec board, one as President (never calculated hours, but from 3-5 hours/week during the academic year so at least 1000 hours)
4 years peer-counseling (1.5 in training), 1.5 years leader/trainer (also never calculated hours, but also 3-5/week at least) -- does this count as clinical??
2 years in a science interest club - not too much involvement, but helped with some outreach events
2 summers/3 winters as a medical receptionist in a large private practice (no clinical work, but plenty of patient contact?)
2 days shadowing docs from my private practice in the hospital
1 summer research intern (1 possible publication?), presented a poster


Also, random other things: studied abroad and minored in that language, I like to run and ski and read...
I also worked all 4 years for the gym and had some leadership positions there (training/advising).

As for now, my work is in manufacturing -- we're a sort of core facility. I'm not sure if that will count against me as we are still mostly figuring things out as we go and developing new tests from literature searches. I doubt my name will be on any papers from it though, as they usually only put the PIs. :/
I also started volunteering at the hospital -- direct pt contact, but nothing medical beyond feeding and ambulating. (4 hours/week, ~70 hours so far)

I'm also working hard to shadow some other docs and studying to take the MCAT in May.

Sorry for the ridiculously long life story. Right now I am trying to decide whether to apply now and take my chances, or do a post-bacc (starting in 2013 since this is a 2-year job) and have to delay 3 years.

Also, state of residence is NY.

What do you all think? Thank you so much in advance!!!

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[Catalystik]

I'm thinking of applying this year and I was hoping you guys could give me some insight about whether to apply now or wait. Here's my deal:

Graduated from 'top-20' school last May and currently working as a research tech in a research hospital/med school.

I'm most worried about my GPA. My final cGPA was 3.54 and sGPA was 3.25. My major included Bio and the humanities, but I really didn't take too many upper level bio classes until my senior (so a year of post-bacc would change my sGPA dramatically). Mostly upward trend except that I messed up orgo twice and got a C+ in both lectures, mostly due to time management issues (I got an A- in the lab, though..?).

I hadn't always planned on being a doctor, so my ECs are pretty scattered:

4 years ESL tutor for migrant workers, 3 on the exec board, one as President (never calculated hours, but from 3-5 hours/week during the academic year so at least 1000 hours)
4 years peer-counseling (1.5 in training), 1.5 years leader/trainer (also never calculated hours, but also 3-5/week at least) -- does this count as clinical??
2 years in a science interest club - not too much involvement, but helped with some outreach events
2 summers/3 winters as a medical receptionist in a large private practice (no clinical work, but plenty of patient contact?)
2 days shadowing docs from my private practice in the hospital
1 summer research intern (1 possible publication?), presented a poster


Also, random other things: studied abroad and minored in that language, I like to run and ski and read...
I also worked all 4 years for the gym and had some leadership positions there (training/advising).

As for now, my work is in manufacturing -- we're a sort of core facility. I'm not sure if that will count against me as we are still mostly figuring things out as we go and developing new tests from literature searches. I doubt my name will be on any papers from it though, as they usually only put the PIs. :/
I also started volunteering at the hospital -- direct pt contact, but nothing medical beyond feeding and ambulating. (4 hours/week, ~70 hours so far)

I'm also working hard to shadow some other docs and studying to take the MCAT in May.

Sorry for the ridiculously long life story. Right now I am trying to decide whether to apply now and take my chances, or do a post-bacc (starting in 2013 since this is a 2-year job) and have to delay 3 years.

Also, state of residence is NY.

What do you all think?

Depending on the school, your MCAT may expire in 2-3 years, so you need to be pretty clear on what you plan to do so as not to take it prematurely.

For DO schools, you might be fine applying with the stats you have (though I'd still suggest getting some As in part-time upper-level Bio to boost the sGPA). For best chance at MD, you'd want more comprehensive GPA repair.

 

[SpecterGT260]

GPA is going to hurt you for MD schools. you could go take graduate level courses and (if you do well) they will be considered separately from undergrad cumulative

 

[flodhi1]

If you're going MD then you're going to have to enroll in a SMP program to raise your sGPA and score > 32 on the MCAT. Your sGPA will most likely be a red flag unless you have extenuating circumstances and a steep upward trend for at least 4-5 semesters. However, if you're going DO then a SMP is not required but you will need a MCAT score > 27.

 

[beansontoast]

Thank you all so much for your advice!

It looks like the general consensus is that my grades are just not high enough for MD and possibly okay for DO.

For the record, there are no extenuating circumstances except that I over-involved myself with volunteering (thinking back, peer counseling was actually 6-8 hours/week) and here are my year-by-year GPAs:

Frosh
cGPA 3.45
sGPA 3.0
Soph
cGPA 3.47
sGPA 3.16
Jr (1 semester + summer)
cGPA 3.45
sGPA 3.0 (orgo..)
Senior
cGPA 3.81
sGPA 3.71

Obviously, I didn't get my stuff together and learn how to manage my time wisely until senior year (also the year I took mostly science classes). I also calculated that if I did a 1 year post-bacc with 23 credits total (~4 classes/sem) and got all As, my sGPA would be 3.48 and my cGPA would be 3.62. Based on that, should I do a post-bacc to bring up that undergrad GPA, or do an SMP, where I guess I just try to show that I'm better than that now?

Also, any comments about ECs? I'm still not sure exactly what counts as clinical. And if I do a 1-year GPA repair, would I apply during that second semester? If so, would the MCAT taken in May 2012 count when applying in summer 2014?

Thank you!!!

 

[SpecterGT260]

depends on your school. I took the mcat in 2008 and then decided to work some before applying. I had to get special accomodations from a couple schools who typically wanted fresher scores. but some other schools accept scores as old as 5 years. the admissions pages for each school will tell you expectations.

if you get your GPA up to those levels you will be a little more competitive. the average student at my school has a 3.7 cGPA and something like a 3.4-3.5 sGPA (which is weird for me because it was my non-sciences that brought me down lol). I used www.startmedicine.com a ton when applying to see average admissions stats. they have a system that gives 2007 statistics for every school. data is a little old but I would suspect not too much has changed and trands between schools should stay pretty consistent i.e. more competitive schools stay competitive

 

[Catalystik]

It looks like the general consensus is that my grades are just not high enough for MD and possibly okay for DO.

For the record, there are no extenuating circumstances except that I over-involved myself with volunteering (thinking back, peer counseling was actually 6-8 hours/week) and here are my year-by-year GPAs:

Frosh
cGPA 3.45
sGPA 3.0
Soph
cGPA 3.47
sGPA 3.16
Jr (1 semester + summer)
cGPA 3.45
sGPA 3.0 (orgo..)
Senior
cGPA 3.81
sGPA 3.71

Obviously, I didn't get my stuff together and learn how to manage my time wisely until senior year (also the year I took mostly science classes). I also calculated that if I did a 1 year post-bacc with 23 credits total (~4 classes/sem) and got all As, my sGPA would be 3.48 and my cGPA would be 3.62.

1) Based on that, should I do a post-bacc to bring up that undergrad GPA, or do an SMP, where I guess I just try to show that I'm better than that now?

2) Also, any comments about ECs? I'm still not sure exactly what counts as clinical.

3) And if I do a 1-year GPA repair, would I apply during that second semester? If so, would the MCAT taken in May 2012 count when applying in summer 2014?

1) Above and beyond raw numbers, having 4 semesters of consistent excellent full-time grades would put you in a much better position. JMO, but I think the informal postbac alone may well be enough, provided you apply very broadly. An SMP would be much more expensive, the coursework is preset and rigid. And if you blow it, you can kiss goodbye to med school forever.

2) What did you peer counsel about? Regardless, your work as a medical receptionist (the main source of my patientl interaction) and current hospital volunteering covers the clinical experience expectation just fine.

Yes, you need more shadowing (50 hours is the average listed). What specialties were the docs you've followed so far? You need some office-based shadowing, and be sure that primary care is included.

A year of research is the average listed, but at least you have some.

The teaching, leadership, and nonmedical community service are excellent. I'm not sure yet where your peer counseling fits in yet (I assume it was paid), but that looks great, too, even if it's more of a medically-relevant EC, rather than more clinical experience.

Can't say where your current job fits in, but if you have responsibility and engage in teamwork and problem-solving, it's to your benefit.

3) You could, with the thought that you can let schools know via update letter about the second semester's grades, but obviously, it would be better if the two excellent additional semesters were on the transcript and calculated into your application GPAs.

 

[beansontoast]

Thank you guys all so much! You've been so much more helpful and thorough than my health-careers advisor..

SpecterGT260 - thanks for the website. I'm finding it really helpful. It sounds like even though most schools say they don't accept MCAY scores after 3 years or so, they let you use it when you asked. Is that right?

Catalystik - thanks so much for the detailed responses. Peer counseling was a sort of "warm-line" open to the campus/community -- some major crisis calls, but mostly just confidential, anonymous counseling. It was volunteer.

So based on y'all's advice, I think I am going to talk to my boss about leaving after one year instead of two (there are a lot of internal changes in my lab about to happen, so I think this will be okay). I think I will do an informal post-bac next year (SMP is just so expensive...) and then apply during that next summer and spend a year doing something else I suppose (more classes or new job? not sure). Thanks so much for all your help again, and I am still very open to any further input!

 

[SpecterGT260]

yes. Drexel let me use my score (it was 3 years old and they require 2)

 

[beansontoast]

1 year update!

So I left my lab job and went to my state school to take a bunch of upper-level bio classes. I took the MCAT over the summer and got a 35 (12/11/12). First semester went well (brought me up to cGPA 3.6, sGPA 3.4) and this semester is going well too, so I'm estimating that I'll have a 3.6 cGPA and 3.5 sGPA when I finish up this spring. I've also been working as an MA part time and got some more shadowing done. Oh and I also got a pub, but I'm in the middle of a bunch of authors.

So, how am I looking for MD schools? Should I still apply DO as well? Here's a preliminary list, what do you think? (Trying to stay Northeast, MD residence):

Crazy reaches:
BU
Tufts
Brown
Case Western
Vanderbilt
UVA

Less crazy reaches:
Maryland
Loyola
Rosalind Franklin
Tulane
Wake Forest
Einstein
NYMC
Albany
Hofstra
Temple
Drexel
Vtech
Eastern VA
Virginia Commonwealth
Vermont
Georgetown

(Based mostly off LizzieM score)

 

[Temperature101]

1 year update!

So I left my lab job and went to my state school to take a bunch of upper-level bio classes. I took the MCAT over the summer and got a 35 (12/11/12). First semester went well (brought me up to cGPA 3.6, sGPA 3.4) and this semester is going well too, so I'm estimating that I'll have a 3.6 cGPA and 3.5 sGPA when I finish up this spring. I've also been working as an MA part time and got some more shadowing done. Oh and I also got a pub, but I'm in the middle of a bunch of authors.

So, how am I looking for MD schools? Should I still apply DO as well? Here's a preliminary list, what do you think? (Trying to stay Northeast, MD residence):

Crazy reaches:
BU
Tufts
Brown
Case Western
Vanderbilt
UVA

Less crazy reaches:
Maryland
Loyola
Rosalind Franklin
Tulane
Wake Forest
Einstein
NYMC
Albany
Hofstra
Temple
Drexel
Vtech
Eastern VA
Virginia Commonwealth
Vermont
Georgetown

(Based mostly off LizzieM score)

No need to apply to DO. Your list is ok.

 

[Catalystik]

Nicely done! Are you no longer a NY state resident? I'm wondering since you didn't list the SUNYs, but some of them are friendly to OOSers and worth including anyway.

What EC enhancements have you made since we last "talked?" With the summer research and the job, do you have enough research experience to appeal to the research-oriented schools on your list?

Since you listed Loyola and Georgetown, you might consider adding SLU also.

 

[beansontoast]

I am no longer an NY resident, I am MD now, but what SUNYs should I consider adding?

Unfortunately I got injured last summer, so last semester school was all I could handle while I was recovering. I started the MA job in December and I've been doing it part-time since the spring semester started.
I am not sure whether my research will be enough, but hopefully having one pub helps? Which schools do you think are too research-oriented?
I did finish up the year of clinical volunteering before I moved (~150 hours) and did some more shadowing, though it is still on the low side (~30 hours total).

Why SLU? Are they all religious? (I'm not Christian)

 

[Catalystik]

1) I am no longer an NY resident, I am MD now, but what SUNYs should I consider adding?

2) I am not sure whether my research will be enough, but hopefully having one pub helps? Which schools do you think are too research-oriented?

3) I did finish up the year of clinical volunteering before I moved (~150 hours) and did some more shadowing, though it is still on the low side (~30 hours total).

4) Why SLU? Are they all religious? (I'm not Christian)

1) Buffalo and Downstate both have a decent OOS matriculation rate, last I loooked.

2) Hopefully. Case, Vandy, VTech, and possibly Einstein.

3) Yeah, you need more shadowing, but the active clinical experience looks fine.

4) They are all Jesuit schools that value a humanistic mindset. None requires that you "be religious" and they all have a diverse student body in that respect.

 

[beansontoast]

Thanks! I will look more into the schools you mentioned.

Should I apply DO? Or add more lower-tier MD schools?

 

[Catalystik]

Your list is fine as it is, but if there are DO schools close to home that you could potentially prefer to a midwest location, then consider applying to a few.

 

[as1212559]

If there is a strong DO program local or something you could apply if you wanted but it shouldn't be necessary. Nice work OP.