Shut out of most FM programs with a <450 level 1? (DO)

[qqw]

I was just checking FRIEDA for FM programs, and they all seem to have minimum level 1 scores of either 500 or 450.

I'm freaking out a bit because I scored less than 450... I feel like i should apply to 30 places to be "Safe", yet I'm not sure I can even find 30 places I meet the requirements for!

Anyone else dealing/dealt with this?
I'm in the class of 2017.

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[DrMidlife]

FRIEDA

Of course you mean FREIDA.

they all seem to have

Of course by "all" you mean the ones you've looked at, which presumably don't include all 400+, and by "all" you mean the ones that actually post minimum scores, which very few programs do, and those that do may not be entirely truthful.

Stop being fatalistic. Do better on exams - all exams. Use this forum as a massive historical review of best practices for candidates who think they'll have trouble.

Best of luck to you.

 

[JustPlainBill]

Just please stop it -- I almost crafted an appropriately sarcastic response to your post but it's late on Monday the first full day of the new year and I've dealt with enough neuroses today --- just cut it out.

I had a 479 on my Level 1, a 485 on my Level 2 and passed the PE -- I sent out 12 applications to residencies in Texas, interviewed at 10, canceled one interview because Texas A&M FM residency at the time was a bunch of pretentious twits who talked of "giving people a second chance to prove themselves" since I had failed first year -- told me they hadn't even read my dean's letter or my personal statement which explained the failure to anyone with an above room temperature IQ and it had nothing to do with ability-- window licking, crayon eating Aggies -- matched my first choice which turned out to be the residency from hell but I graduated, passed boards on my first attempt and am now seeing patients as a board certified FM attending ---

this is why people have trouble taking this seriously -- get it through the brain housing group that no one thing is going to nix you from a residency -- you can have great scores, great grades, good interview and STILL not match -- yes, I've seen it happen -- classmate wound up in a transitional year -- just cast the net wide, interview well, do audition rotations and work you butt off ---

 

[playingfrombehind]

I was just checking FRIEDA for FM programs, and they all seem to have minimum level 1 scores of either 500 or 450.

I'm freaking out a bit because I scored less than 450... I feel like i should apply to 30 places to be "Safe", yet I'm not sure I can even find 30 places I meet the requirements for!

Anyone else dealing/dealt with this?
I'm in the class of 2017.

Hey I feel your angst. I am MD-student but I didn't meet alot of step 1 minimum scores but met the step 2 scores. Alot of programs will filter you out due to the step 1 score but I think if you have a higher step 2 score then they still give you a chance.

So I only applied to programs where I met either their step 1 or step 2 score. And I still got interviews to places where my step 1 score was lower than their requirement. FREIDA is not always 100% up to date though. The best way is really to call.

one more point, I think in general step 1 minimum scores are somewhat fluid since again I got interveiws to places where I didn't meet step 1 scores.

 

[playingfrombehind]

Just please stop it -- I almost crafted an appropriately sarcastic response to your post but it's late on Monday the first full day of the new year and I've dealt with enough neuroses today --- just cut it out.

I had a 479 on my Level 1, a 485 on my Level 2 and passed the PE -- I sent out 12 applications to residencies in Texas, interviewed at 10, canceled one interview because Texas A&M FM residency at the time was a bunch of pretentious twits who talked of "giving people a second chance to prove themselves" since I had failed first year -- told me they hadn't even read my dean's letter or my personal statement which explained the failure to anyone with an above room temperature IQ and it had nothing to do with ability-- window licking, crayon eating Aggies -- matched my first choice which turned out to be the residency from hell but I graduated, passed boards on my first attempt and am now seeing patients as a board certified FM attending ---

this is why people have trouble taking this seriously -- get it through the brain housing group that no one thing is going to nix you from a residency -- you can have great scores, great grades, good interview and STILL not match -- yes, I've seen it happen -- classmate wound up in a transitional year -- just cast the net wide, interview well, do audition rotations and work you butt off ---

-This response is a bit harsh - anyone in his/her position would be nervous. I'm sure anyone who failed something in med school is nervous about matching becuase there are so many qualitified candidates out there.
-Also I'm not sure when you graduated but it is much more compettiive nowadays - many more qualified people from offshore schools, no more pre-match, etc.
-It is reasonable for program directors to be nervous about someone with low scores, failed a year, etc. If you were in the PD position would you want to take someone who failed a year and/or had low scores if you had thousands of others with higher scores/never failed.
-I just came back from an interview - they are a 6-6-6 program. They received over 2000 applications. Numbers like these are pretty seen at every program.

 

[JustPlainBill]

-This response is a bit harsh - anyone in his/her position would be nervous. I'm sure anyone who failed something in med school is nervous about matching becuase there are so many qualitified candidates out there.
-Also I'm not sure when you graduated but it is much more compettiive nowadays - many more qualified people from offshore schools, no more pre-match, etc.
-It is reasonable for program directors to be nervous about someone with low scores, failed a year, etc. If you were in the PD position would you want to take someone who failed a year and/or had low scores if you had thousands of others with higher scores/never failed.
-I just came back from an interview - they are a 6-6-6 program. They received over 2000 applications. Numbers like these are pretty seen at every program.

Since there was no way you could know--
Graduated 2010 AFTER failing my first try at MS1 and still matched as indicated with those scores.

 

[playingfrombehind]

Since there was no way you could know--
Graduated 2010 AFTER failing my first try at MS1 and still matched as indicated with those scores.

Right that was 2010...its now 2016.. the match has been getting more and more competitive each year with more unmatched students, no prematch anymore, more over qualified candidates. You are trying to compare something that happened in 2010 to now in 2016. All i'm saying is that the OP did not react out of proportion. It is normal to be nervous when you don't meet minimum scores and you want to match.

 

[JustPlainBill]

Right that was 2010...its now 2016.. the match has been getting more and more competitive each year with more unmatched students, no prematch anymore, more over qualified candidates. You are trying to compare something that happened in 2010 to now in 2016. All i'm saying is that the OP did not react out of proportion. It is normal to be nervous when you don't meet minimum scores and you want to match.

Forgive my lack of understanding of all things related to the match process, kind sir. Pray, educate this member of the unwashed masses in the superior order of thinking to which you allude. I do so await your next turd of wisdom to fall from above.

 

[AMEHigh]

I was just checking FRIEDA for FM programs, and they all seem to have minimum level 1 scores of either 500 or 450.

I'm freaking out a bit because I scored less than 450... I feel like i should apply to 30 places to be "Safe", yet I'm not sure I can even find 30 places I meet the requirements for!

Anyone else dealing/dealt with this?
I'm in the class of 2017.

I had a failure and didn't break over 500 on either parts. Still got tons of interviews at great places (dually accredited and some acgme academic programs) and ended up cancelling a few of my interviews. Work on improving comlex II and have a well thought out personal statement and interesting application and you'll do fine.

 

[adamanteus]

Meh, I failed Comlex 1 first try, scored 460-490 on the retake and on Comlex 2, and I still had more than enough interviews. 2 DO programs, 3 dual accredited, and 6 MD programs. A couple of them I was under their so called minimum step scores, too. I wouldn't say any of them were bottom of the barrel, and at least 5 of them were my top choices of where I'd like to end up. You have nothing to worry about. Apply smart.

 

[hallowmann]

OP, don't get too worried. You still have time to improve on Level 2. I know of some programs that use either score for their cutoffs, others that average them, others that put "suggested" cutoffs in Freida, but regularly dip below them for interviews, etc. One thing you can do is call the program and ask if they have a cutoff and what it is. Another is to apply to programs that you fulfill only one Level requirement for. Another is to just apply to the places you're really interested in regardless and hope for something.

If you really want to make yourself feel better, apply broadly. When interviews are rolling in, then you can be picky with which you actually accept.

Good luck, I might see you along the trail, unless I fall in love with something else in the next couple months.

Right that was 2010...its now 2016.. the match has been getting more and more competitive each year with more unmatched students, no prematch anymore, more over qualified candidates. You are trying to compare something that happened in 2010 to now in 2016. All i'm saying is that the OP did not react out of proportion. It is normal to be nervous when you don't meet minimum scores and you want to match.

I get that certain things have changed in 6 years (all in requirement, the SOAP, etc), and maybe the attending you're talking to had it somewhat easier with regards to the application process, and there certainly are more applicants, but unfilled programs still happen every year, and I wouldn't be too worried if you apply broadly enough. I've heard from a lot of people that just passed and they talked about ranking 3-4 programs and matching. Now while I wouldn't recommend that, it does underscore the availability of spots.

This is all assuming your goal is matching anywhere. There are plenty of competitive programs and and competitive regions, but if your goal is matching FM, it's still doable.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Me...? I didn't match (cuz I applied to surgery) at all and had to scramble into traditional and then stayed in FP. My comlex was lower than yours. If your scores are low, you apply everywhere and cross your fingers.

 

[SLC]

I had a 560 level 1 (230 USMLE-1). With a 530ish level 2 and 220 USMLE-2, passed PE on the first try, never failed a course, all high-passes/honors on rotations. I think I interviewed well. But still didn't match in FM, still unsure of why, but I think perhaps it's that I had letters from OB and plastics and one FM doc, perhaps people thought I was using FM as a backup?

Either way, don't die worrying, but don't rest easy. It's a whole different ballgame these days. I'm at an ACGME university program now, one of the best nationally on Doximity; our medical school is in the top 4 or 5 for selectivity and in the top 25 overall. Lots of students legitimately interested in FM all of a sudden. Whether that signals something about the near future of FM in general, or whether it's just our school having a good and well supported program, it tells me the days of FM being a haven for people with sub-par applications are looking to be ending.

I interviewed a handful of applicants this year, all of whom had much better grades and scores than I did.

 

[Fay2017]

I was just checking FRIEDA for FM programs, and they all seem to have minimum level 1 scores of either 500 or 450.

I'm freaking out a bit because I scored less than 450... I feel like i should apply to 30 places to be "Safe", yet I'm not sure I can even find 30 places I meet the requirements for!

Anyone else dealing/dealt with this?
I'm in the class of 2017.

QQW - If family is your passion, plan on doing 2-3 Sub-Is at reasonable residencies that are your top choices, even if it means traveling and spending $$. Believe me, it is your way to getting interviews. Do your research and find programs with at least 1-2 DOs on board. Also, regional bias is BIG in family. Once you apply via ERAS, email/call programs in November/December and tell them about your local ties to the area. This can be anything from a spouse's satellite office to family connections. If you really have a top choice, consider personalizing your existing personal statement for that program. Programs don't want to be harassed but they appreciate enthusiasm.

Make sure you apply broadly and over-apply if you are below average on your level 2, as well. If you are able to score >500 on Level 2 you can email programs and ask them to consider your improvement. Honestly, don't freak out. Just do your research. You will be fine! You should be spending time now making sure you can get awesome LORs and do better on Level 2.

You will be fine!

 

[sabsaf123]

I had a 560 level 1 (230 USMLE-1). With a 530ish level 2 and 220 USMLE-2, passed PE on the first try, never failed a course, all high-passes/honors on rotations. I think I interviewed well. But still didn't match in FM, still unsure of why, but I think perhaps it's that I had letters from OB and plastics and one FM doc, perhaps people thought I was using FM as a backup?

I interviewed a handful of applicants this year, all of whom had much better grades and scores than I did.

Are you in FM now? What did you do for the year immediately after med school, since you didn't match? Also did only apply to uber selective FM spots?(cuz your scores are really high).

 

[sabsaf123]

this is why people have trouble taking this seriously -- get it through the brain housing group that no one thing is going to nix you from a residency -- you can have great scores, great grades, good interview and STILL not match -- yes, I've seen it happen -- classmate wound up in a transitional year -- just cast the net wide, interview well, do audition rotations and work you butt off ---

Can someone explain to me what a transitional year is? Same thing as preliminary and categorical?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Can someone explain to me what a transitional year is? Same thing as preliminary and categorical?

It's an intern year where you do everything, not just medicine or surgery. It's like being a red shirt freshman, an extra year of M3/M4 but instead you're now the intern with the responsibility.

 

[NurWollen]

Are you in FM now? What did you do for the year immediately after med school, since you didn't match? Also did only apply to uber selective FM spots?(cuz your scores are really high).

He found a program in the SOAP.

 

[SLC]

Are you in FM now? What did you do for the year immediately after med school, since you didn't match? Also did only apply to uber selective FM spots?(cuz your scores are really high).

I got a spot in SOAP. I applied almost exclusively to highly competitive programs in the West, bad move. I also made one fatal mistake, I felt confident enough to cancel two interviews in the Phoenix AZ area last minute. One of those programs, by all indications a decent one, had one spot go unfilled. If I'd just gone to that interview, I would all but certainly matched there.

But I ended up in an excellent program in the East, and I am very happy with it.

The other thing I can see likely effecting my app was the pre-interview socials. I'm fairly reserved, especially at first. Lots of folks make snap judgements about applicants based on how well they interacted at the social event. I understand why, but it's sad because I'll bet a lot of talented people get overlooked that way.

It's sad, because I feel like I was a really good applicant, and I'm getting stellar evaluations so far in intern year. But I can see that having possibly played a role in my position on rank lists.

 

[jonb12997]

As another option look into northern New England at the fp programs. (Vt nh Maine)...

 

[W19]

MS2 US-MD here and I have not failed any classes so far... I keep hearing the match is getting more and more competitive, but I really don't know whether that is true or not... If I got 220+ on step1 and apply to 70+ programs that cater to FMG/IMG and/or are located in undesirable location, it is safe to say that I will have a good chance to match?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

MS2 US-MD here and I have not failed any classes so far... I keep hearing the match is getting more and more competitive, but I really don't know whether that is true or not... If I got 220+ on step1 and apply to 70+ programs that cater to FMG/IMG and/or are located in undesirable location, it is safe to say that I will have a good chance to match?

Why would you focus on the crappy programs?

 

[NurWollen]

MS2 US-MD here and I have not failed any classes so far... I keep hearing the match is getting more and more competitive, but I really don't know whether that is true or not... If I got 220+ on step1 and apply to 70+ programs that cater to FMG/IMG and/or are located in undesirable location, it is safe to say that I will have a good chance to match?

Not sure but sure u not srs.

 

[W19]

Not sure but sure u not srs.

Why would you focus on the crappy programs?

I am afraid not to match based on what I read on the SOAP thread last year... I saw a bunch of students with good score who failed to match...

I might be too worried, but I am serious.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I am afraid not to match based on what I read on the SOAP thread last year... I saw a bunch of students with good score who failed to match...

I might be too worry, but I am serious.

This is FM, not orthopedics.

 

[W19]

This is FM, not orthopedics.

You can read a poster above @SLC who did well on step 1/2 and had to SOAP... The match is not definitely what it was 5+ years ago, when a US student with a pulse will find a spot in FM/IM/psych...

 

[NurWollen]

You can read a poster above @SLC who did well on step 1/2 and had to SOAP... The match is not definitely what it was 5+ years ago, when a US student with a pulse will find a spot in FM/IM/psych...

@SLC was a super qualified applicant who had awful luck. He could have entered the match 10 times and matched 9/10 times.

You are a US-MD student, and that gives you an advantage even in FM.

 

[hallowmann]

You can read a poster above @SLC who did well on step 1/2 and had to SOAP... The match is not definitely what it was 5+ years ago, when a US student with a pulse will find a spot in FM/IM/psych...

A lot of the times when people don't match normal or non-competitive places, they don't because of poor planning. They applied to too few programs, they only applied to one geographic location, they only applied to the most competitive programs, they didn't attend enough interviews, and/or they didn't rank enough places. Don't do that. Seriously, I've heard people claim that for FM you only need to rank 3-4 places. That's ridiculous. Maybe if those 3-4 places all tend not to fill in the match, because otherwise that's just poor planning.

Apply to many programs (30+ for a US graduate), with a good mix of locations and safeties, reasonable, and reaches, attend as many interviews as you can (15 if necessary again with the same mix), and rank literally every place that you interviewed at that you would be OK with going to.

Seriously, everyone I've talked to who's had to scramble or SOAP did so because of one of those pitfalls. Even SLC said that one program he was offered an interview at didn't fill, but he turned down the interview because he felt overly confident given his stats and other interview offers.

Also, use charting outcomes in the match to determine your competitiveness. I'm sure it'll be more accurate than SDN anecdotes.

 

[NurWollen]

Also, use charting outcomes in the match to determine your competitiveness. I'm sure it'll be more accurate than SDN anecdotes.

If only they didn't lump DOs in with IMGs.

 

[hallowmann]

If only they didn't lump DOs in with IMGs.

I agree wholeheartedly, maybe it's something we'll be able to petition to the NRMP when we become a sizeable portion of the match (10-20%) and members on the ACGME board. I can't imagine it would be particularly hard to analyze that data.

Based on other metrics it's probably safe to assume we fall somewhere in between US MDs and IMGs. If you want to err on the side of caution, you can just prepare to have an equivalent experience as independent, and hopefully be pleasantly surprised.

 

[sabsaf123]

If only they didn't lump DOs in with IMGs.

I thought DO were far better off than foreign grads. Isn't that why everyone says go DO over Caribbean?

 

[SLC]

I thought DO were far better off than foreign grads. Isn't that why everyone says go DO over Caribbean?

They are. It's just that for purpose of match data reporting, DO's and IMG/FMG's are lumped in together. The data is only listed as "USMD vs everyone else". DO outcomes are likely better than the independent applicant data indicates, Carribbean grads likely worse.

I do know that my experience with my program bears this out. I've been through a ranking meeting and seen how DO's and Carribbean grads are handled. Right or wrong, there's a perception that IMG's bring down the image of the program. Almost all the residents, and most of the faculty agreed that IMG's needed to stay low on the list for the sake of continuing to attract strong applicants, who often view a roster with IMG's as a sign of a weak program. In certain fields even having DO's weakens the program's image, but in FM, DO's are pretty ubiquitous and don't seem to bring the programs down.

 

[DrMidlife]

you can see the breakdown for DO, img & fmg overall match rates (for all specialties) towards the front of the nrmp data book. that's where it's made clear that DOs are overall matching at close to 80%, which is substantially better than img & fmg.

other things not available in the data:
- can't get the region img/fmg are from. sackler grads are lumped in with all the carib, all the UK/Australia, all the eastern europe
- can't get multi year match cycles except for USMD. so the match rates for do/img/fmg include those on their 2nd/3rd/4th try.

just notes on the available data, no other commentary from me.

 

[deleted782953]

I was just checking FRIEDA for FM programs, and they all seem to have minimum level 1 scores of either 500 or 450.

I'm freaking out a bit because I scored less than 450... I feel like i should apply to 30 places to be "Safe", yet I'm not sure I can even find 30 places I meet the requirements for!

Anyone else dealing/dealt with this?
I'm in the class of 2017.

OP, I'm in the same boat... Level 1 < 450 (so furious), checking programs like you, freaking out, etc.... I also don't want to end up "just anywhere"; I'd want a decent FM residency that fits my life ambitions career-wise (full-scope practice) which it seems like many FM residencies do not cater to well (except the competitive ones, of course...). So angry at myself...

 

[Back 5]

Keeping an eye on this thread for 4th year (next year)

 

[LUCPM]

Things you can do now are:
Focus on learning during rotations, try to improve step 2 scores, and more importantly, do some audition rotations. As you will find out, a lot of FM programs are looking for decent people who are diligent and can work well with others.

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