SMP Programs that do not require MCAT or GRE?

[ayylmao]

I know of Hopkins HSI and Duke but want to know if there are any other programs that just take the SAT/ACT.

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[DrMidlife]

The Hopkins program is undergrad. Not an SMP because not M.

The Duke program is a one year masters that doesn't include any med school classes with med students. Not an SMP because not S.

You wouldn't want to find an actual SMP that allows you in without an MCAT score, because an actual SMP is most of the first year of med school. You shouldn't do an SMP before you are ready for med school, minus a competitive GPA.

If you'd like to comment on where you are (done w/undergrad? done w/prereqs? low GPA? why no MCAT yet? etc?) and where you want to go (med school? dental?) we might be able to help you.

 

[ayylmao]

Thanks for your response! I'm a senior with a low GPA (3.2) at a top ten. I have a pretty significant upward trend (took physics I, biochemistry, 2 neuro upper levels last semester with straight A's) and I'm just now taking physics and do not want to compromise my last semester by studying for the MCAT or the GRE alongside my coursework which is obviously priority #1.

The Hopkins HSI program gives a masters in biotechnology, but is not an "SMP" in the sense that you're not taking medical school classes... Is that right? The duke program is similar.

I think I can give you a better sense of my position: I want try to matriculate to a masters program where I can prove myself to medical schools but want it to be a 2 year process (MCAT->masters--->work/rsch/apply) instead of a 3 year process (work/rsch/MCAT---->masters----> work/rsch/apply)

Conversely I could take the GRE to make application to more programs and take the MCAT in the summer but I really think it'll be difficult to maintain my grades while preparing for a standardized exam.

 

[DrMidlife]

look at programs like harvard x and berkeley X.

The problem with leaving a 3.2 intact is that you still have to answer for it after you do grad work. without an mcat score you would do better doing more undergrad.

also with that GPA you need to give up on gaming your schedule. your "2 year plan" is just as likely to be 3. or 4.

there is no shortage of programs that will take your money and give you a 1 year masters, taking no responsibility for what happens to you next. be a smart consumer.

 

[ayylmao]

hmm that's really interesting. Do you not think that an excellent graduate GPA would weigh more heavily than raising my undergraduate GPA .1 or perhaps .2 points? I just feel like an upward trend in undergrad followed by an excellent graduate science performance would be a better use of $$...

Again, thanks for your help with this!

 

[ayylmao]

Additionally, would I need an SMP/graduate work after taking more classes?

 

[deleted248403]

hmm that's really interesting. Do you not think that an excellent graduate GPA would weigh more heavily than raising my undergraduate GPA .1 or perhaps .2 points? I just feel like an upward trend in undergrad followed by an excellent graduate science performance would be a better use of $$...

Again, thanks for your help with this!

Med School Adcom will always rate ugrad GPA very highly, so a good grad GPA will help but not weight more heavily

And yes, I think you should do some ugrad classes, and then follow it with an SMP. Do your own grad calculation and see what a semester or two of more classes does to your ugrad GPA, and i'll be surprised if you break 3.35-3.4

 

[DrMidlife]

let's be very clear here that an actual SMP such as gtown, cincy, etc IS DIFFERENT because med schools are familiar with the programs that put students through lots of first year med school classes with the med students. A strong performance in such a program is completely relevant and reassuring, given a sub-competitive uGPA. There are about 15 of these programs and yes they want to see your MCAT score before they let you do med school classes.

And let's be clear that there are HUNDREDS of one year masters programs that aren't SMPs. Med schools will not take the time to go find out how rigorous some random program is. Med schools will look at your undergrad GPA and fail to be reassured by a one year program that doesn't require an MCAT and includes EMT training (wtf is that?!?) and has course titles with more than 2 words. You MIGHT get lucky and some random adcom will know about your random program. But:

tl;dr: 10 med school applicants have to get rejected for you to get a seat at any med school. nickel and dime it accordingly.

 

[ayylmao]

While I would prefer an MD over a DO, I know they get to the same place. Would I benefit more from retaking prerecs that tripped me up and messed up my GPA (intro chem did it for me) than taking upper level science courses? Would you advise that it's better to take time to take classes/MCAT/etc. for a year before applying to a more established SMP instead of a one year masters program? I know it's a numbers game and I'm no special snowflake in the applicant pool but I'm honestly not sure what's the best way forward here.

 

[DrMidlife]

The best way forward is to research and understand your options, which you haven't yet done.

The best way to research and understand your options is to do a whole lot of reading around here because robflanker and I get very cranky instead of answering the same question over and over. 10 hours studying the low GPA threads in this forum would be a good start.

Hint: what do DO schools offer?

 

[ayylmao]

Thank you so much for your help! I hope your patients don't ask you the same question more than once, lest they receive that. I'll do my own research then.

 

[DrMidlife]

right. if you were my patient i would bear responsibility for ensuring your success.

since you're a low GPA premed i bear responsibility for not doing your work for you.

 

[ayylmao]

I'm also just a human being who has received conflicting advice and posted on this forum looking for clarification. If you didn't want to explain things then easy: don't. There's no reason to sass me for "not doing my research". I've done nothing but posted a question in a forum and asked follow up questions.

Jesus. I honestly don't understand how people so easy to anger want to become physicians and think that treating people like this is okay.

 

[deleted248403]

Jesus. I honestly don't understand how people so easy to anger want to become physicians and think that treating people like this is okay.

Ah the good old pre-med passing judgement on someone who has walked the walk that they are about to take. I'm like 25 days out from matching and being a resident - i've had glowing evals on all my rotations, and got a plethora of interviews at places I was very excited to. I think i'll let my attendings and future residents be the judge of my ability to treat people - not a faceless, nameless, pre-med.

Good luck on the path to med school, start swallowing some of the hurt feelings you have as low GPA candidate and start working harder. No one on a med school adcom cares where u went to school or if people were mean to you on SDN or any of that. They care about your GPA and your ability to pass all licensing exams, and not fail out. So far you haven't demonstrated that - and we are trying to give you some guidance to find that path. But you've got to find that path, and develop a thicker skin. Or you will be that kid who cries as an MS-3 cos some big bad mean surgery resident yelled at you. Don't be that guy.

*edit for typos

 

[DrMidlife]

isn't it interesting that you're projecting anger. what might you do instead...

 

[ayylmao]

Thanks guys for convincing me that sdn is everything my friends told me it was and more

 

[DrMidlife]

thanks for neither learning from nor contributing to the body of knowledge you didn't look for here.

 

[ayylmao]

Thanks for belittling a premed asking a question.

 

[DrMidlife]

isn't it interesting that you feel belittled. are there other reactions you could have to the info you were given above?

i'm pretty sure that mean SDN people are not in your top 10 list of problems.

 

[ayylmao]

kay

 

[jnrep13]

Thanks guys for convincing me that sdn is everything my friends told me it was and more

Hey, I'm new to sdn and haven't encountered something like this until now. But, I have to agree that doing some of your own research, especially talking to your pre-med deans/mentors/advisors, will be more useful than asking folks online. You can also call/email the schools directly and they'll be more than happy to answer your questions.

However, since I'm in the process of applying/interviewing for Duke's MBS and Hopkins' HSI, I thought I'd share something encouraging: I was told by Hopkins admissions that 100% of students in their inaugural class had been offered interviews and 80% (so far) have been accepted into medical school. That should give you some comfort in knowing that the program is doing exactly what it was designed for: to get people into medical school. Since Duke's program is pretty much structured the same, I anticipate similar results for their incoming students.

Word of advice: you never know until you try. It wouldn't hurt to apply to the programs, see if you get in, then weigh your options (once you actually have them). It may turn out that neither program is right for you, the degree is too costly (especially right before you sign for that med school "mortgage"), or that research or other clinical work may be a more feasible option at this time. Cast your net wide so you're not limited by gap year options. Best of luck!

 

[ayylmao]

Hey, I'm new to sdn and haven't encountered something like this until now. But, I have to agree that doing some of your own research, especially talking to your pre-med deans/mentors/advisors, will be more useful than asking folks online. You can also call/email the schools directly and they'll be more than happy to answer your questions.

However, since I'm in the process of applying/interviewing for Duke's MBS and Hopkins' HSI, I thought I'd share something encouraging: I was told by Hopkins admissions that 100% of students in their inaugural class had been offered interviews and 80% (so far) have been accepted into medical school. That should give you some comfort in knowing that the program is doing exactly what it was designed for: to get people into medical school. Since Duke's program is pretty much structured the same, I anticipate similar results for their incoming students.

Word of advice: you never know until you try. It wouldn't hurt to apply to the programs, see if you get in, then weigh your options (once you actually have them). It may turn out that neither program is right for you, the degree is too costly (especially right before you sign for that med school "mortgage"), or that research or other clinical work may be a more feasible option at this time. Cast your net wide so you're not limited by gap year options. Best of luck!

Hey thanks for your help! I've definitely been doing that, and heard similar stats about the HSI program. I didn't post on this forum looking for trouble, but it seems like some people are more than willing to shell it out. My premed advisors laughed when I showed them

You're absolutely right about applying.. There's nothing to lose; I can't decide to go or not to go if I don't get in.

 

[darklabel]

While I would prefer an MD over a DO, I know they get to the same place. Would I benefit more from retaking prerecs that tripped me up and messed up my GPA (intro chem did it for me) than taking upper level science courses? Would you advise that it's better to take time to take classes/MCAT/etc. for a year before applying to a more established SMP instead of a one year masters program? I know it's a numbers game and I'm no special snowflake in the applicant pool but I'm honestly not sure what's the best way forward here.

Depends what your goals are. For GPA redemption, DO and MD schools have very different pathways.

For DO, you would save time + money if you do grade replacement. Never do an SMP for DO schools as it is a waste of money and it is far cheaper just doing a year of retakes in a state undergrad school instead of doing a 1 year expensive masters program. You obviously won't need the MCAT for this option and you'll be able to brush up on stuff that will be tested on the MCAT. So retaking classes would be your best option in DO. I would advise a mixture of both retakes and upper level classes.

MD is very different road for you. I would say you should definitely take the MCAT and make sure you score highly on it. Then look for a highly regarded SMP. I believe some were given to you including Cincinnati, Georgetown, Tulane and Temple to start researching. But you're going to have to take the MCAT. Any SMP that doesn't require the MCAT isn't worth your time and money.

I know sometimes it comes out negatively, but most members of SDN really are trying to help you. I know it doesn't align with what you want to hear (happens to most people asking questions in SDN), but an SMP program that doesn't require an MCAT isn't going to be highly regarded and won't be of much benefit to you after a year of hard work and loans.

 

[ayylmao]

Depends what your goals are. For GPA redemption, DO and MD schools have very different pathways.

For DO, you would save time + money if you do grade replacement. Never do an SMP for DO schools as it is a waste of money and it is far cheaper just doing a year of retakes in a state undergrad school instead of doing a 1 year expensive masters program. You obviously won't need the MCAT for this option and you'll be able to brush up on stuff that will be tested on the MCAT. So retaking classes would be your best option in DO. I would advise a mixture of both retakes and upper level classes.

MD is very different road for you. I would say you should definitely take the MCAT and make sure you score highly on it. Then look for a highly regarded SMP. I believe some were given to you including Cincinnati, Georgetown, Tulane and Temple to start researching. But you're going to have to take the MCAT. Any SMP that doesn't require the MCAT isn't worth your time and money.

I know sometimes it comes out negatively, but most members of SDN really are trying to help you. I know it doesn't align with what you want to hear (happens to most people asking questions in SDN), but an SMP program that doesn't require an MCAT isn't going to be highly regarded and won't be of much benefit to you after a year of hard work and loans.

Besides for the mixup between a traditional SMP and the premedical masters programs, I think I'm getting the gist here. The three programs I am applying to which do not require an mcat are the Duke and Hopkins program (which are not SMPs) and the temple advanced program (which is an SMP but doesn't require an mcat and is .1% possibility of acceptance)

I do have a question regarding retaking/taking upper level courses Are these typical done at community college or state school? How do you take courses a la carte without applying to something? If I do not get into either of the programs above, I will take classes/volunteer and prepare for my mcat for a year and then apply to DO and few low MD.

My last question: DO schools are expensive. Does avoiding an SMP or traditional masters make the DO path less expensive than the MD path?

Again, thanks for your for your input! It's a breath of fresh air on an otherwise vitriolic thread.

 

[ayylmao]

Additionally, depending on what I learn I may choose not to matriculate to either the Duke or Hopkins program if I feel my application would be better served spending a year taking classes/prepping for the mcat/volunteering. It's cheaper but I'm not sure if it's better. I'm personally turned off to the idea of a traditional SMP because it's sink or swim and if you sink you're 50k in the hole.

 

[darklabel]

Besides for the mixup between a traditional SMP and the premedical masters programs, I think I'm getting the gist here. The three programs I am applying to which do not require an mcat are the Duke and Hopkins program (which are not SMPs) and the temple advanced program (which is an SMP but doesn't require an mcat and is .1% possibility of acceptance)

I do have a question regarding retaking/taking upper level courses Are these typical done at community college or state school? How do you take courses a la carte without applying to something? If I do not get into either of the programs above, I will take classes/volunteer and prepare for my mcat for a year and then apply to DO and few low MD.

My last question: DO schools are expensive. Does avoiding an SMP or traditional masters make the DO path less expensive than the MD path?

Again, thanks for your for your input! It's a breath of fresh air on an otherwise vitriolic thread.

It doesn't matter if it's at a CC or 4 year. I only said 4 year since it is better than taking classes in a CC for MD schools, but I think for DO it doesn't matter. But I honestly don't know.

It varies for institution and you will have to search for the schools near you if you can take classes as a post-bacc. Some universities will allow this. If not, I believe all CCs will let you take classes without any specific degree in mind

If you retake & take classes at a CC, I wouldn't bother with applying to any MD, but it's your call. It's unlikely you will sway any USMD's with CC classes, but if you score highly on the MCAT then maybe it can be enough to overcome your GPA since it is in that bubble of being low but not too low.

For your last question, IDK. I did a masters and got accepted to an expensive school. I shudder at my projected loan amount, but I just put it out of my mind. For me it was worth the MD and even if it is a low tier school I'm in, I know every ACGME specialty is open to me and its up to me to work hard to go wherever I want. But there's nothing wrong with DO and I just say that if you'r goal is DO, you can save yourself a lot of money just retaking classes instead of an SMP. You could do an SMP and go to a state school and save money, but for people like us, you're less concerned about which schools are cheaper or scholarships etc and more concerned with being accepted anywhere.

Standard SMPs are the best way to overcome a poor GPA. I work with admissions doing interviewing and tours and the sentiment is PhD's and Masters aren't really impressive to ad coms because a lot of people in these fields are applying to medical school as a "back up" because the job market for them is poor and not necessarily because they started the programs wanting to be physicians, but YMMV.

 

[ayylmao]

This is perhaps an impossible question to answer but would retaking classes and taking new upper level classes at a non-CC for two years be a good way to make myself a competitive applicant? I'm thinking maybe 30-35 credits for two years of upper level science or retake classes while gaining additional clinical exposure. I'd probably retake gen chem for the first semester while studying for my MCAT.

As you said, I want to maximize my chances get in somewhere. Being able to practice and specialize is thousands of times more important than and MD vs a DO but I do want to be able to apply for both.

Personally, SMPs are a scary proposition because there's a great deal of risk involved, mostly financially, if you do average below a "b", which I don't believe is uncommon in medical school. Being able to pay a la carte for classes that are rigorous but not a coin toss is very important to me.

 

[ayylmao]

As a follow up to this thread (for anyone interested), I spent one year working as a research assistant, getting published and scoring in the 91st percentile on the MCAT. I am now doing a combo of retakes/upper levels at my state school for a year (just 30 credits total). I hope to bring my gpa to a 3.4 before applying to MD and DO schools next summer. Glad to not have sunk 50k into a masters or an smp.

In perusing the current state of the post-bac and nontrad forums, it's pretty obvious that the question I brought up more than one year ago is still ambiguous to many low gpa premeds. I am convinced that these non-linking masters and smp programs are (currently) not worth the investment for low gpa premeds compared to taking more undergraduate coursework. After "doing my research," I would encourage anyone in a similar position to avoid non-linking smps. The risks of these programs resemble caribbean medical schools, where mediocrity will kill your chances at ever becoming a doctor.

 

[ZombieDante]

As a follow up to this thread (for anyone interested), I spent one year working as a research assistant, getting published and scoring in the 91st percentile on the MCAT. I am now doing a combo of retakes/upper levels at my state school for a year (just 30 credits total). I hope to bring my gpa to a 3.4 before applying to MD and DO schools next summer. Glad to not have sunk 50k into a masters or an smp.

In perusing the current state of the post-bac and nontrad forums, it's pretty obvious that the question I brought up more than one year ago is still ambiguous to many low gpa premeds. I am convinced that these non-linking masters and smp programs are (currently) not worth the investment for low gpa premeds compared to taking more undergraduate coursework. After "doing my research," I would encourage anyone in a similar position to avoid non-linking smps. The risks of these programs resemble caribbean medical schools, where mediocrity will kill your chances at ever becoming a doctor.

So my GPA is about the same. I'm looking at trying to find something to do for my 1 yr off. I'm retaking the MCAT in March. I'm hoping to at least score 508. I'm thinking about just doing some science courses at my state school. I was thinking about applying this upcoming cycle. Do you think that would be a good idea or should I do what you did and wait another cycle?

 

[ayylmao]

So my GPA is about the same. I'm looking at trying to find something to do for my 1 yr off. I'm retaking the MCAT in March. I'm hoping to at least score 508. I'm thinking about just doing some science courses at my state school. I was thinking about applying this upcoming cycle. Do you think that would be a good idea or should I do what you did and wait another cycle?

I just read your post in pre-allo. I think it's worthwhile if you're able to do well in the courses. I attended a top 10 school and am taking post bac at a local state school where the work is considerably easier. I think retaking courses where you were not able to master the material (C or lower) along with taking upper level biological sciences, can improve your chances much more than an mph or a risky smp. I wouldn't retake your mcat unless you're scoring on practice tests where you need to be scoring. And if you're not, I think seeing the content in an undergrad course format may be greatly beneficial towards your mcat.

 

[waveringatom]

Did you end up applying and how have you fared?