Some Very Very Strange statistics

[noordoctor]

hey yall,
I was browsing the AACPM website to see stats and such and came across this:

http://www.aacpm.org/html/statistics/newpdfs/Matric Stats/06-07_Total_Enroll_Class.pdf

I am genuinely quite shocked to see that there was about 50% less students enrolled into fourth, the final year at Pod schools. So that means that 50% of the people drop out of pod school? Why is there such a high drop rate? That is soooo shocking. Any input?

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[densmore22]

It has less to do with people dropping/failing/leaving between 1st and 4th year and more to do with the amount accepted for the 4th year class being significantly less than for the 1st year class. Enrollment has gone up each year over the past 5-6 years per school and overall which will account for the bigger class size for 1st years and smaller class sizes for 4th years.

 

[meats]

Well, I know from my interviews at NYCPM and Barry that those who don't take school seriously end up dropping out/failing ...
they take pod school as a joke...but it is just as hard as any med school program...

 

[sadipagla]

If you look at the difference between entering 3rd year and entering 4th year, it is more than 100. I don't think that many students who pass the first two years of pod school will fail in their third year. So it has to do with the class size as someone mentioned.

 

[Buspar]

hey yall,
I was browsing the AACPM website to see stats and such and came across this:

http://www.aacpm.org/html/statistics/newpdfs/Matric Stats/06-07_Total_Enroll_Class.pdf

I am genuinely quite shocked to see that there was about 50% less students enrolled into fourth, the final year at Pod schools. So that means that 50% of the people drop out of pod school? Why is there such a high drop rate? That is soooo shocking. Any input?

How did you come up with 50% of people dropping out of Pod school The statistics just shows the amout of students enrolled per class in 2006-2007. It does not show the total of enrollement per class over the span of 4 yrs.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Pod schools have high attrition rates, don't be fooled. Not necessarily people failing out but some people try to get into other fields. A podiatry practice that opened up near my house recently closed down, I live in a big Northern city, and its hard for new Podiatrists to make a living there. That Pod moved to a smaller city. I applied to Allopathic medical schools and got rejected outright and waitlisted at two programs, I got into a Pod school as an alternative, its okay but I don't want to work in the middle of some small town to make a living, so I am applying to DO schools.

 

[WannaBeDPM]

Dude!
All your posts are about something really pessimistic about the field...this morning you just terrorized all these threads...
...stop being such a debbie downer/negative nancy...

 

[jonwill]

Pod schools have high attrition rates, don't be fooled. Not necessarily people failing out but some people try to get into other fields. A podiatry practice that opened up near my house recently closed down, I live in a big Northern city, and its hard for new Podiatrists to make a living there. That Pod moved to a smaller city. I applied to Allopathic medical schools and got rejected outright and waitlisted at two programs, I got into a Pod school as an alternative, its okay but I don't want to work in the middle of some small town to make a living, so I am applying to DO schools.

ANY doctor in ANY medical specialty that opens a private office in a saturated area is going to have a difficult time. Medicine is a business. If there is not enough demand, you'll struggle.

 

[MossPoh]

ANY doctor in ANY medical specialty that opens a private office in a saturated area is going to have a difficult time. Medicine is a business. If there is not enough demand, you'll struggle.

Agreed. There is a need for podiatrists, but if you go an area where there are TONS of them, as well as other medical specialists, it is going to be harder. Plus, most medical people aren't horribly business savvy.

Rocket, I have just read 2 or 3 threads where you are horribly negative and/or giving incorrect education. It is fine if you aren't interested in podiatry, but spewing out hearsay without any evidence isn't helping anything.

 

[robg]

I'm not to sure he is painting a picture of gloom and doom. Several podiatrist I have interviewed are less that happy about podiatry. I wish I would have talked to them sooner.

A pod starting today it will have to wait about 10 years until I start seeing a reasonable income because the first 3-5 years after residency at lean. At my age, 39, that's not to good.

 

[Snake Doctor]

As you all know... always take the user's number of posts into account. Anyone can basically create a new account and talk negatively. I mean, it depends on who you ask. If it's perfect, then everyone would have gone into it already. The pods I talked to (and they practice in different geographical locations) are very satisfied actually . If you look at law schools (even the top), there is still a great deal of attrition. Allopathic and POD schools don't contain the same student population. Students in allopathic medical schools are self selected. They can hold their own. Likewise, a top Podiatry student who did very well during undergrad (let's say 3.7+ for example) will most likely do well in Podiatry school if he or she continues to work hard. With the shift towards Podiatry and D.O. students taking the same courses TOGETHER, that is saying something right there. Also, the faculty at SM is also the same faculty that teaches at UCSF. I mean, if you aren't succesful as an undergrad., what makes you think professional school (in any fields) is going to be easy? In professional school, the classes are on steroids. Instead of covering Biochem in a semester or two, you get it for a few wks. Finally, in business, there are winners and losers. It's really that simple... in virtually any industry If you're Coffee Bean (okay, I don't know how popular CB is outside of SoCal), would you open next to Starbucks? Yeah, don't think so, which is Jonwill's point. As for salary, the residency, geographical location, bonus... and some other factors all must be taken into account.

 

[165007]

I'm not to sure he is painting a picture of gloom and doom. Several podiatrist I have interviewed are less that happy about podiatry. I wish I would have talked to them sooner.

A pod starting today it will have to wait about 10 years until I start seeing a reasonable income because the first 3-5 years after residency at lean. At my age, 39, that's not to good.

well, since you are unsure about podiatry, maybe you should pursue in a diff. career. You still have time

 

[meats]

why are people so negative??
Maybe just bitter about life in general........
think positive people!!!! it's good karma!

 

[jonwill]

I'm not to sure he is painting a picture of gloom and doom. Several podiatrist I have interviewed are less that happy about podiatry. I wish I would have talked to them sooner.

A pod starting today it will have to wait about 10 years until I start seeing a reasonable income because the first 3-5 years after residency at lean. At my age, 39, that's not to good.

I find it interesting that you so easily believe a few disgruntled podiatrists that you have "interviewed" and yet you so easily discount the thousands upon thousands of podiatrists that are satisfied and doing quite well.

FYI: I have yet to see a pod from my program take an offer for less than 6 figures.

 

[cool_vkb]

Its like these idiots have nothing else to do in their else. these wanna be doctors must have their applications thrown out of window by every professional school. So now rejected and disgruntled with their worthless lives they roam in forums spreading misery and sadness. These *****s are good for nothing. SDN is a very well respected site and many people come here for information. Thanks to these idiots who pass totally negative info which has no basis at all. they are discouraging and scaring away future students. Had they been saying true facts and arguing then ok one can even debate. But spreading totally false info, i dont think its no point of even arguing. if this goes on continuing then soon SDN will also become lik wikipedia which many see as hear-say infomation and no truth. So far SDN is considered by premeds,pre pods,pre dents as a very reliable and honest source of info. But this is changing thanks to these idiots.

Atleast to preserve the credibility of SDN as a source of reliable information the mods should ban these type of idiots who spread false and baseless information.

 

[Free2B]

As you all know... always take the user's number of posts into account. Anyone can basically create a new account and talk negatively. I mean, it depends on who you ask. If it's perfect, then everyone would have gone into it already. The pods I talked to (and they practice in different geographical locations) are very satisfied actually . If you look at law schools (even the top), there is still a great deal of attrition. Allopathic and POD schools don't contain the same student population. Students in allopathic medical schools are self selected. They can hold their own. Likewise, a top Podiatry student who did very well during undergrad (let's say 3.7+ for example) will most likely do well in Podiatry school if he or she continues to work hard. With the shift towards Podiatry and D.O. students taking the same courses TOGETHER, that is saying something right there. Also, the faculty at SM is also the same faculty that teaches at UCSF. I mean, if you aren't succesful as an undergrad., what makes you think professional school (in any fields) is going to be easy? In professional school, the classes are on steroids. Instead of covering Biochem in a semester or two, you get it for a few wks. Finally, in business, there are winners and losers. It's really that simple... in virtually any industry If you're Coffee Bean (okay, I don't know how popular CB is outside of SoCal), would you open next to Starbucks? Yeah, don't think so, which is Jonwill's point. As for salary, the residency, geographical location, bonus... and some other factors all must be taken into account.

Absolutely true. I notice that there are users who make multiple threads downing a profession as soon as they sign up and then you never see them post again.

 

[PMSIII]

I find it interesting that you so easily believe a few disgruntled podiatrists that you have "interviewed" and yet you so easily discount the thousands upon thousands of podiatrists that are satisfied and doing quite well.

FYI: I have yet to see a pod from my program take an offer for less than 6 figures.

Amen to that. bottom line, podiatry has alot of great opportunities if you're willing to put in the effort in school + residency training - nothing comes easy in life and podiatry is no exception. As far as testimonies are concerned, I'd be careful on who to ask/poll because there are disgruntled old-timers out there. You guys have to appreciate that the training has drastically changed (for the better) over the past decade, so you will see these mixed reactions from time to time. For that, I recommend speaking to residents, attendings, recent grads and openly ask them about their experience. There's a ton of success stories in the field, so why not learn from them?

In regards to the OP, you have to bare in mind that podiatry schools differ from many (if not most) allopathic schools in that they are private institutions. As a result, tuition money is a big contributor to the school's income. That being said, its not unusual to see schools admit a large some of students, only to see a decent percentage "weeded' out by the first two years - I don't necessarily agree with this "philosohpy", but this is the reality of private institutions - in fact, this goes beyond the field of podiatry. If you take a look at carribean schools and some (keyword some) D.O. schools (will remain nameless), you will see a similar trend in admitting more numbers and graduating a significantly smaller percentage - again, it comes down to demand for tuition money.

 

[whiskers]

In consideing this topic I find a Poem to be most helpful.

[Set in the early 1800's to a cartoon imagry with vivid blues and greens, talking fish and a peg legged drunken captain dressed in his typical drab colored jacket sporting a pipe of the finest tobacco from cuba sailing on an old out dated wooden fishing scooner in the face of a soon to be gale force wind. \

As the expedition progresses the mood darkens and so does the imagery of the scene and the bright vivid blues/greens are replaced with shades of gray and black and a steadfast expressionless captain is seen dishing dumbfounded dolphins to the wind.]


"Chicken of the Sea."


Nets are cast daily--- in the pursuit of--- "Chicken of the Sea"

Swimming schools of dolphins frollic entertaining you and me

But nets are terrifically clever and often hide invisibly

So at the end of the day, what's caught's not always "Chicken of the Sea"


Now the hull is lowly riding on the horizon of a stormy sea

Filled to the brim beyond-a safe riding cap-a-city

The matees are a fearing the waves are beyonda 23

If they don't cast themselves some cargo, they'll lose all 103


So it's decided the dolphins must-a go to the tun-a-twen-a-tey

they've been made to walk the plank to save the precious eighty-three

But them dolphins paid their fair share of the tun-a-dowry

To advance the cause of the glamorous and always cunning "Chicken of the Sea."

 

[jonwill]

MMMMMMMM...Chicken of the sea.

 

[Feli]

...nothing comes easy in life and podiatry is no exception...

Yep^ The only person who controls your attrition rate, board pass rate, course exam score, etc is.... you.

If you think about it, you guys have faced attrition rates since gen bio or o-chem. Why get scared now? I remember my p-chem teacher telling us day 1, "based on recent history, half of you will fail this class... and I'm not here to teach to that half."

Pod schools do have a high attrition rate. It's not Carib med school level, but it is high. They are less selective on the front end, but most who make it through have tested well and work hard. I'd guess the actual pod attrition rates are around one third on average (as opposed to 5-10% for MD/DO). Still, the rates fluctuate every year and cannot be predicted. It's not like a professor will fail students just to fail them; they construct challenging exams and eval criteria because they have to ensure that you know the material. The attrition rates in anything are both for the sake of the profession and to protect the school's board pass rate. I'd probably like to be at least part-time on a pod school faculty someday, and I'd do the same thing when it's clear a student isn't putting in the work and learning the required info.

As densmore stated, some of the statistical discrepancy between small numbers of 4th year and high numbers of 1st year students is also the boom in student interest, though. Not all that you see is attrition. 2007 (so students listed "fourth year" on the chart) saw the lowest number of national graduating DPMs in 30yrs (and DMU and Barry weren't even open 30yrs ago). 2010 or 2011 may see the some of the highest numbers of national DPM grads ever. Things can fluctuate based on how many people the schools accept and how well the students handle the curriculum.

Possibly the greatest recent increase has been at OCPM; I believe they have increased from accepting around 50-70 new students per year to 100-120 over the last 5yrs. Stats like that can skew things a bit... if they have, for example, 115 first year and 45 fourth year students there, some of that is attrition and some is growing matriculation numbers.

 

[Stafocker]

MMMMMMMM...Chicken of the sea.

lol

 

[SportPOD]

I find it interesting that people only read the doom and gloom about podiatry and freak out. No one seems to read about the great things that podiatry has done for the medical profession and make comments about it.
One thing that was always drilled into my head, in order to make it any profession and to make the "big bucks" you have to apply yourself. If you cannot survive classes such as path, biochem or even physiology how the heck would I trust you to touch my patients? What you learn in school is what you need in order to treat your patients!
Podiatry is a great profession and it will always be as long as feet are around (don't see them evolving into anything else anytime soon). If you want to hear about statistics and see how well a podiatrist is doing, come visit my office and I'll show you the numbers!

Ok, off my soapbox!

 

[Snake Doctor]

I find it interesting that people only read the doom and gloom about podiatry and freak out. No one seems to read about the great things that podiatry has done for the medical profession and make comments about it.
One thing that was always drilled into my head, in order to make it any profession and to make the "big bucks" you have to apply yourself. If you cannot survive classes such as path, biochem or even physiology how the heck would I trust you to touch my patients? What you learn in school is what you need in order to treat your patients!
Podiatry is a great profession and it will always be as long as feet are around (don't see them evolving into anything else anytime soon). If you want to hear about statistics and see how well a podiatrist is doing, come visit my office and I'll show you the numbers!

Ok, off my soapbox!

If I get a free two-way plane ticket with hotel fees paid, I'll stop by . Anyways, I agree with SportPod. It's the same as being a plastic surgeon. If you can't delivery, you're not making the "big bucks." It's Performance, Performance, Performance. Same concept as being a pro baseball player. There's a difference between being a backup and a starter. You both made it to the majors, but there are differences. And between starters, there are some who go on to become all-stars and some don't (which is still nice ). From what I gather, there is alot more POTENTIAL (esp. compare to internal medicine for example) to make more if you work hard and are extremely good at what you do. If you want to have a great lifestyle and spend some quality time with your love ones while trading off a bit of your income, that's perfectly okay too (this may be a shock to the typical pre-meds, but life style matters esp. if there are people you care about ). It's hard to measure quality of life with statistics alone.