St. George's VS Univ of Sydney

[crackerj]

vegemitosis, thank you for your advice. I'm an international student but I'm currently studying my undergraduate degree in Aus.... So technically I'm in an international student quota so I think I will have an equivalent interview as for the students from US/Canada.

By the way, what was the lowest MCAT score to get a scholarship in Flinders? I've heard 5 people get a scholarship each year.

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[tl47]

Hi crackerj,

Good to know another Asian who might be going to Flinders next year. I am currently residing in US, and will be attending an interview end of this month.

I have to say that the discussion on this forum thus far has left me a bit worried about Flinders. Especially vegemitosis who seemed quite positive about Flinders last year in the network54 forums, but seem to be a little disturbed/distraught about it.

 

[pitman]

I'm not *darkly* cynical, but I do find it odd that Vegemitosis erases and bails because he thinks that a Web-interfaced chat board is relaying viruses to him (!), and just when tl47 starts to express worry about Flinders:

tl47 > I have to say that the discussion on this forum thus far has left me a bit worried about Flinders. Especially vegemitosis who seemed quite positive about Flinders last year in the network54 forums, but seem to be a little disturbed/distraught about it.

But I have a bigger problem with Vegemitosis' assertion:

vegemitosis > Aus schools are ok as medical schools. Average, in my humble opinion. Those who compare them to US schools are just disappointed they did not get in there.

...which brought on the partial (albeit more verifyable, and thus valid, to a positivist) capitulation by trkd:

trkd > Maybe because we like the program we are in. I agree that going overseas was not the first choice for most of us...

Trkd, by supporting even part of V.'s argument ("first choice" stigma), you give his potentially more harmful (indoctrinating) comments additional weight -- the *presumption* that Aussie schools are (should be?) back-up schools. Certainly, there is some actual stat about how many int'l candidates/students feel this way. However, I will explain the case of one known exception:

I am American and will not be applying to American schools, or to Caribbean schools, or to UK schools, or for that matter to Israeli, Seychelloise or Qatari schools. I have mid-30's + 'S', reasonable gpa, and mucho clinical research and medical volunteer work. I know of at least one, maybe two US schools that will take me (associates = connections). So why go down under? Fundamentally, because of a whacky form of idealism that I won't go into at this time. Now, some tend to think that idealism = ignorance, but I asure you, I am well-informed, older, rather "worldly" relative to most 20-somethings, self-made, and ironically quite cynical (as above should indicate).

Some seem to hold the view that (paraphrasing many comments I've seen on the board), "if you care about medicine, then stop fretting/whining, b.c. after med school + (US) residency you're a (US) doctor, and that's what you're there for"...premise A: (US) medicine is the end; premise B: 4 years of "means" should be taken like a bullet for some greater end, as though the end is fixed, indeed The ideal, or even defined, when we look beyond.

Others seem to believe that those who defend Aussie schools vs. US ones have US-envy. Certainly, some do.

But, sometimes, some people who make some of the best doctors (IMHO), choose things because they are different (or quasi-exotic), or philosphically more in-tune with their world-view, or even because, and this isn't at all flippant mind you, "it's there" -- not just med school, but medicine, as a choice, as part of a larger transcendance (more akin to Sartre's type, as I am not spiritual), or as a partial.

I guess the issue I have is the presumption in many posts that candidates all really secretly wish they could get some good ol' American schooling, or that all that matters is getting that degree for some common goal X. THERE ARE NO INHERENT FUNDAMENTAL MOTIVES OR GOALS here, despite conventional wisdom. And assertions to the contrary are subtly arrogant, as they will only serve to indoctrinate and alienate.

-Pitman

 

[Dr.Magic]

Racism does indeed exist in Australia, and it is present a LOT in certain areas. I'm a medical student at Newcastle and I have already had two such experiences BUT only in the community, not from anyone in our medical school (yet). There are however different types of racists - those who will openly show and others who will do it covertly. So I may have been the victim of racism in the medical setting and may have not recognised it, it might even come to me when I start to apply for jobs etc

But with the same token, not all people are racists and you just can't go through life looking out for them. I worked in a rural area of australia for 8 months where I was the only foreign guy and never experienced open racism, and after just 3 months in Newcastle I have two such experiences to my name! go figure!

My advice is to not worry too much about it, you cannot take it to heart - racists are insecure and this is what they portray to you. Just work hard and try to do the best you can.

I just love this smiley!

 

[MD1088]

Hi Gang. I am finishing year 2 of the medical program at Flinders. As for racism in Adelaide - rubbish. The mayor is Alfred Huang, a chinese man. Guess what? This is a democracy, he was elected. Adelaide has an awesome asian shopping district in the center of town, probably the city's most popular. As for Flinders, there are many different nationalities represented in the student body and in the residents/RMO's. The school has a good library, a large tertiary hospital accessable from day 1 right down the hall, an awesome anatomy museum/laboratory, some good lecturers, a solid history of placing North Americans in very competitive residency programs. I would not hesitate to come here at all. Adelaide is cheap, the weather is nice, the girls are cute, the fresh fruit/veggies are to die for (as is the Cooper's beer). I have had a good experience here. Please dont let one or two sour grapes persuade you one way or the other. You can find people with a chip on their shoulder anywhere whining about racism or sexism or the economy, or whatever excuse they have for their own failure. They are weak and if Nietsche was right, they will be soon be vanquished from the earth...

 

[silenthunder]

Hey md 1088,

glad to hear about your views on the racism at Flinders/Adelaide.
I am applying, but am rewriting the mcat in august, and won't hear back about interview etc. until later this year.

I can't believe someone just quoted Nietzsche

Can you provide some information about the major differences between traditional learning and the way that things are done at Flinders. I know this has been done to death already, but I would appreciate if you could give me (and everyone who wants to know) a bit of a more detailed look at your class/PBL schedule for a few days, or even a week. How does testing work? How brutal are the verbal tests?

Cheers,

Silenthunder

 

[tl47]

Thanks to all the newer, enlightening postings on the possible racism in Flinders. Actually makes me a lot more peaceful about it. It's the only school I applied to, BTW . So, I will be looking forward to the interview, and hope to be there next January!

BTW, I think this forum should be renamed to say "Flinders" somewhere .

As for PBL, please check the many good and helpful websites available:
Flinder's PBL infopage
University of Delaware
Sydney's medical school with PBL info

and a lot more...

I didn't know that "learning to learn" is a slogan for PBL. I always thought that college was all about "learning to learn".

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
Listen - if you want to just chill out and party and hit the bars, then just move to Sydney or some other cool city and put med school off for a few years. But if you want to be a doctor, in the US, with a good residency, then at some point you have to suck it up and work hard and not party that much. If that means going to an island like grenada - then so be it. Don't be fooled by these people talking about how great life is in Australia- there are a few horror stories out there - specifically about Flinders if you do a search on this forum. I'm not putting the Aussie schools down, but its not like its a 4 year party and then they hand you an MD and send you off to a nice residency at UCSF. If we're talking about saving money.....why not just take 5 grand - enroll in your local state school, redo all your pre-med classes, take Kaplan, rock the MCAT - and then go to school in the US?

Australia isn't all about parties man...honestly the only real advantage to going to Australia is that you have the possibility of staying...what if after ur 4 years you don't want to go back to the US? For Caribbean grads you are stuck...you don't really have many other options.

 

[redshifteffect]

As for racism I'm in Hobart so this may be a little different from the Mainland but let me point out a couple of things...

There isn't racism like what you would see in the US ie blacks vs. white that sort of thing (mainly because the minorities here are from different ethnic groups). There are a lot of "Asians" (Chinese Malaysians) here in Hobart and I think they are all treated very well. So if you're thinking of not coming to Australia just because of race I think that's not a wise decision. (no offence)...honestly Melbourne has the biggest populations of Sri Lankans and Greeks after Colombo and Athens respectively! (We're talking in the millions here)....

 

[irisheyes]

Redshifteffect,
while I agree with you about studying med.in Australia if you would like to stay there following schooling, your point regarding carribean med schools really is not accurate. I have already checked into returning to Ireland with my Ross degree and I would be eligible for residency training. Alternately I would be eligible to work there should I decide to complete a residency in the states. I have also checked into programs in the U.K and the same applies. An M.D from a reputable institution is by and large accepted worldwide. Granted, you may encounter difficulties if you are not a citizen of the country, or if you are looking for the more competitive residencies. I know there are many different caveats to this argument but I am sure you are aware of them. However, a carribean medical degree by no means limits your practice eligibility to the continental U.S. If the individual is determined, they will find a way.

 

[pitman]

Much has changed in this area in the past couple years, so red is probably just thinking back a bit.

On a related note...the UK is (after December) moving to an accreditation system that gives no preference to particular foreign doctors..So following residency, all IMGs there will be treated the same (all will be able to apply for limited status, but not provisional status). In other words, grads from Carib schools will not be in a disadvantage (but St. G's in particular will be losing its current preferential treatment by the UK of allowing its grads to get provisional status).

For more info on this:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=870640#post870640

-pitman

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by irisheyes
Redshifteffect,
while I agree with you about studying med.in Australia if you would like to stay there following schooling, your point regarding carribean med schools really is not accurate. I have already checked into returning to Ireland with my Ross degree and I would be eligible for residency training. Alternately I would be eligible to work there should I decide to complete a residency in the states. I have also checked into programs in the U.K and the same applies. An M.D from a reputable institution is by and large accepted worldwide. Granted, you may encounter difficulties if you are not a citizen of the country, or if you are looking for the more competitive residencies. I know there are many different caveats to this argument but I am sure you are aware of them. However, a carribean medical degree by no means limits your practice eligibility to the continental U.S. If the individual is determined, they will find a way.

Irisheyes, I hate to burst your bubble but this is not really true. You can work in the UK for sure without any problems, but Australia is going to be a different case.

I noticed in another post that you plan on coming here after you graduate, but even with US training it is very difficult.

You will first have to get yourself a locum job somewhere (only possible if you have some form of postgraduate training, but fresh out of the caribbean you won't have any) which may be possible if the hospital is really in need of someone, but they will never give you a full license or recognize you as a fellow. They definately will not allow a caribbean graduated student into the system, it's even difficult for well respected doctors from India/Pakistan to get in without doing extensive residency positions all over again.

So to get residency you will 1) require a PR which is difficult to do without australian training since they have taken doctors off the skilled occupations list...please visit www.immi.gov.au for more details 2) you will have have to compete with local Australian students for the limited number of spots there; who do you think they will give preference to?

So while it's partially true you might get a locum or some type of temporary job in some remote area of Australia as soon as a local grad is found your contract will be cancelled...

The only reason I know this is because I want to stay and I'm trying to debate on whether or not doing US training will be helpful.

P.S. As I posted in another post getting into Australia isn't based on tests but really on Politics...so I'm just advising people that it will be difficult to get into the system, I'm sure it's not impossible but if this is a backup plan it's a very farfetched one.

Finally Irisheyes check out this site and talk to this guy directly:
http://www.geocities.com/grahammcmahon/ireland.html

While yes you will be able to "register" for a residency position in Ireland even for me (coming from Australia) it is very difficult....the limited number of spots and the fact that local Irish students are given preference first makes it very difficult....I think that's the case for every country, their students are given preference....the main problem with the Caribbean is if you don't get into the States who's going to give you preference??

 

[redshifteffect]

In terms of the UK Australian graduate will have to write the PLAB as well.

 

[redshifteffect]

Hey Irisheyes,

Just wanted to make somethings clear; I honestly think the training is Caribbean schools is good. I don't want to come across as bashing them at all. There is no question about that at all...but you know how the politics work in these type of countries...unless you experience it yourself you would have no clue...just trying to make sure that ppl. have a more realistic idea before they make these big decisions.

P.S. Your points are all good; and I wish you the best!

 

[irisheyes]

I hear what you are saying with regards to Australia. I have heard it was tough to get in on if you are not from that country. The main reason I would actually like to go to Oz is really just to experience it. I have many, many friends there and hear all kinds of good reports. I would even be happy to do a one year stint there if that were possible. Other than that I would be quite comfortable doing a residency here in the states. I plan to go into anesthesia and there are many good residencies here for that. Anyway..for me all of this is four years off. I still have plenty of travelling to do in the carribean, and south america, so I should stay occupied ( between that and med school). I will keep my eye on goings-on down under. Best of luck in your program. As you probably gathered from my other posts I think a good doc' makes himself. An institution is really only a gateway to the profession. By the way, what is it about Australia that makes you want to stay there? My friends tell me that it is like Ireland ( very laid back) without all the rain

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by irisheyes
I hear what you are saying with regards to Australia. I have heard it was tough to get in on if you are not from that country. The main reason I would actually like to go to Oz is really just to experience it. I have many, many friends there and hear all kinds of good reports. I would even be happy to do a one year stint there if that were possible. Other than that I would be quite comfortable doing a residency here in the states. I plan to go into anesthesia and there are many good residencies here for that. Anyway..for me all of this is four years off. I still have plenty of travelling to do in the carribean, and south america, so I should stay occupied ( between that and med school). I will keep my eye on goings-on down under. Best of luck in your program. As you probably gathered from my other posts I think a good doc' makes himself. An institution is really only a gateway to the profession. By the way, what is it about Australia that makes you want to stay there? My friends tell me that it is like Ireland ( very laid back) without all the rain

Yeah that's pretty much spot on, its the person that makes the doctor not only the program...I think you can get a good training anywhere you go. With your US training you can find a locum somewhere, though it may not be in Sydney or Melbourne, but there are a lot of very excellent places to stay...

Two reasons why I want to stay here:
THE WEATHER...!! Man it's sunny here all the time...coming from Canada I had never realized how bad the cold was

The laid back attitude! There's no rush to get a job done, and the docs here aren't stressed at all (except surgeons, but where in the world aren't they stressed)