Stanford School of Medicine Class of 2009-10

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First off, congratulations to all you guys who have been accepted to Stanford. That's awesome. I wish everyone else the best of luck too. I have been accepted as well. After the initial excitement wore off, I starting thinking seriously about my options. I have some pretty strong options right now in addition to Stanford (including Hopkins, WashU, and others). Nonetheless, Stanford really excites me because of its location, students, research opportunities, etc. :) The clinical training really concerns me, though. :( It's good and all, but I don't know if it can stack up to some of the other insititutions I am considering. I really appreciated AJM's insight about this. Are there any other current/former Stanford students that could comment on the strength of clinical training at Stanford? What do you other prospectives/admitted students think about this? Thanks for your input.

-WN!


AJM said:
It's actually a huge misconception that Stanford Hospital does not get a similar patient base compared with academic hospitals located in cities. Keep in mind that although Stanford is located in a suburb, it is in the middle of the VERY densely populated South Bay (I think the population of just the South Bay alone is something like >1.5 million people). In addition, there have been a number of recent hospital closures in the community, including San Jose Medical Center, so all of those patients are now coming to SUH and Santa Clara Valley (both of which are major teaching hospitals for Stanford students.) SUH is busting at it's seams with patients, which is good for students, but has been causing problems with the residency programs (they're trying to figure out how to deal with the increased workload on the residents). So if you're concerned about patient volume, that certainly is not an issue.

Now as far as the diversity of cases go, I think it's similar to what you would see at most major academic medical centers. I'm currently doing my residency at an academic hospital in a metropolitan city, and I actually haven't noticed much of a difference in the types of patients/cases that I see compared with SUH. About 50% of patients seen at SUH are referrals from other institutions. SUH is a major referral center serving the South Bay, central California coast, the central valley (including Fresno and Modesto), and Nevada. The referral base not only adds to the diversity of cases seen, but also to the diversity of your patients. For example, the patients referred from the central valley are largely Hispanic, and are typically farmers (I have even taken care of real-life cowboys while I was there!). SUH also gets referrals from other areas, including Hawaii, Arizona, Oregon, and even the LA area. The referral base is really a gold mine for students to be able to see a ton of incredibly rare diseases and highly-advanced procedures/surgeries.

As far as the non-referral patient base, it's really about the same as most centers. You don't see nearly as many homeless patients as, say, Moffett Hospital at UCSF, but if you want to see homeless patients, you can do all of your rotations at Santa Clara Valley med center, which is the county hospital serving the city of San Jose. You will, however, see patients with HIV, as there is an HIV clinic affiliated with SUH (the hospital I'm currently at treats almost NO HIV+ patients in comparison!) There are some private patients as well as a number of local patients on Medical (CA's Medicaid), which give you a number of bread-and-butter cases to see.

If seeing the rare zebras isn't your thing, you can choose to do more of your rotations at the other affiliated medical centers. In fact, by the time you graduate from Stanford Med, you will have had to rotate through all 5 hospitals so that you get more of a variety of patients as well as seeing what different medical systems are like.

To briefly summarize the different hospitals you'll be at: SUH and Packard Children's are the two academic hospitals you'll rotate through. Packard has a similar patient base and referral pattern as SUH. Santa Clara Valley Medical Center is the county hospital for San Jose with it's own IM residency program, but the Stanford residents from all the specialties rotate down there as well. You will see the typical bread-and-butter cases, lots of uninsured patients, lots of both legal and illegal immigrants, tons of undiagnosed disease waiting for your diagnoses. Kaiser Santa Clara is the HMO hospital you'll rotate through - mostly middle-working-class patients with bread and butter problems - interesting to see how an HMO system works. Finally there's the Palo Alto VA hospital - VERY closely affiliated with SUH - the attendings at the PAVA are Stanford faculty, and all the Stanford residents and fellows spend a hefty amount of time there. The PAVA is the flagship VA hospital for the West Coast. You see a ton of typical vet problems, including out-of-control diabetes, heart disease, vascular disease, liver disease, and PTSD. But the PAVA is also a referral hospital for other VA's, so you will often some of the most severe presentations of these diseases.

So those are the hospitals. The nice thing about the mix is that they complement each other very well. Whatever one hospital may be lacking, you can get at another affiliated hospital.

And as a last note - to tell you the truth, I was a little concerned before I started at this other academic hospital for my residency. I started to buy in to the rumors that Stanford Med does not offer as good clinical training as other med schools, so was worried that I might have to do some catch-up. I was pleasantly surprised when I started. I found that I had just as good clinical training as my residency classmates, and compared to many I felt like I was more prepared.

Sorry about such a long post! I hope that helps!

Oh - and do try to go to the revisit weekend - it's a great weekend organized by the students, and will help to answer many of your concerns.

Let me know of any other questions.

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Tra La La said:
Thanks for the encouragement, microTAS!

At this point, I'm just curious :rolleyes: to see what happened to my application. Why isn't 7 months enough time to reject me! :laugh:

Congrats to you and everyone else, though!

They randomly invited me a few days ago. I noticed that there were open dates through April. I am sure you're still in the running.
 
GuyLaroche said:
They randomly invited me a few days ago. I noticed that there were open dates through April. I am sure you're still in the running.

That's awesome, GL!

Best of luck at Stanford. :luck:
 
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whoa nusse! said:
First off, congratulations to all you guys who have been accepted to Stanford. That's awesome. I wish everyone else the best of luck too. I have been accepted as well. After the initial excitement wore off, I starting thinking seriously about my options. I have some pretty strong options right now in addition to Stanford (including Hopkins, WashU, and others). Nonetheless, Stanford really excites me because of its location, students, research opportunities, etc. :) The clinical training really concerns me, though. :( It's good and all, but I don't know if it can stack up to some of the other insititutions I am considering. I really appreciated AJM's insight about this. Are there any other current/former Stanford students that could comment on the strength of clinical training at Stanford? What do you other prospectives/admitted students think about this? Thanks for your input.

-WN!

i was also worried about the quality of the clinical training as well as the overall medical training. But now I'm a little less concerned about the clinical training because the required core rotations are 1.25 years, leaving an extra 0.75 yrs for you to do elective rotations elsewhere (like where you want to go for residency), research, and other good stuff.

If you want good clinical training for the sake of matching, Stanford's match list is great (also the MSTP list seems to be indistinguishable from any other top 10). If you want good clinical training for the sake of being good in the future, I question how much a few months of training in one specialty will size up against years of training in the same specialty in residency.

Of course these are just random thoughts from a prospective student like you and I can't guarantee that my thoughts won't end up becoming BS in the (long) years to come. Hopkins and WashU are great MSTPs as well; they're on my top 10. Definitely a tough call... but an enviable one! :laugh:

well, we should get more info from the real sources. For veteran Stanford meds, how do you and your classmates handle MS3,4(,5)?
 
Tra La La said:
That's awesome, GL!

Best of luck at Stanford. :luck:


there's hope yet! there's no Bic pens, but you can't beat the SMS wooden pencils (i'm using it right now!) :thumbup:
 
microTAS said:
there's hope yet! there's no Bic pens, but you can't beat the SMS wooden pencils (i'm using it right now!) :thumbup:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Haybrant said:
thanks for posting! ive seen past years match lists but not sure how to tell how this years stacks up; anyone have any ideas? ajm?

I don't think this is a complete list -- about 20 students (give or take) are missing from what was posted.

On briefly looking at the programs, it looks like this year's match is pretty similar to previous matches. The typical numbers breakdown as to locations people tend to go to are as follows: usually about 30-40% stay at Stanford, and about 20% go to the Harvard hospitals. After that, about 10-15% more stay in other programs in the bay area (UCSF, Highland ER, Oakland Children's), and then the rest is a scattering of locations, both east and west coast. On looking through the list, people matched at very well-respected programs in the specialties they applied in.

The specialties people matched in are also very typical of previous years matches -- barely anyone goes into FP, and lots of people do surgical specialties as well as rads, anesthesia, ophtho. Just for my bias - it doesn't look like IM was quite as popular this year, but then again there are a number of students missing from the list. (nothing against WW - that was very helpful for everyone here).

On the whole, not too different. The most important thing to find out, however, is not necessarily the exact specialties or programs people match to, but try to find out what percentage of students get their 1st choice, and what percentage gets one of their top 3 choices. Stanford tries to keep track of this, so they will probably tell you at Revisit weekend. I'm sure you'll find that people tend to match where they want. My graduating year, I think the numbers were 78% got their 1st choice, and 91% got one of their top 3 choices. This is not an easy feat when you look at the match list and see that the vast majority of programs on there are highly competetive.
 
hi all. i have an interview at sms this thursday (wheee!) and was hoping those of you living in the bay area could give me some advice. if i drive down from sf early in the morning before my interview, how long might it take? what is the best/fastest way to get there?
thanks in advance for your help! hopefully the next time i post on this thread it will be as a member of the class of '09/'10!!
 
kgm4 said:
hi all. i have an interview at sms this thursday (wheee!) and was hoping those of you living in the bay area could give me some advice. if i drive down from sf early in the morning before my interview, how long might it take? what is the best/fastest way to get there?
thanks in advance for your help! hopefully the next time i post on this thread it will be as a member of the class of '09/'10!!


Depending on where you are in SF, take 280 or 101. I'm not actually sure where they'd want you to park...maybe someone who has already interviewed can tell you. But from SF at the buttcrack of dawn will prolly take you about 40 minutes.
 
kgm4 said:
hi all. i have an interview at sms this thursday (wheee!) and was hoping those of you living in the bay area could give me some advice. if i drive down from sf early in the morning before my interview, how long might it take? what is the best/fastest way to get there?
thanks in advance for your help! hopefully the next time i post on this thread it will be as a member of the class of '09/'10!!

Take the 280 to Sand Hill Road (you will see a sign for the Stanford Linear Accelerator on the exit). It should take you around 40 minutes depending on how long it takes you to get on the 280 out of SF. Parking is straight forward...lots of options...the best being right across from the admissions building.

Don't forget to post your interview feedback for us Phreaks who have it the following week. Best of luck on Thursday.
 
AJM said:
I don't think this is a complete list -- about 20 students (give or take) are missing from what was posted.

actually only 65 people participated in the match this year, according to the most recent Dean's newsletter. They are expecting a much larger graduation class next year.

http://deansnewsletter.stanford.edu/#1
 
Hello fellow SMS admits,
Have any of you folks inquired about getting a deal on a computer through Stanford? If either, is the med school more Mac or PC friendly?
thanks
 
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I'd just like to wish all of you well, regardless of your acceptance into our school. For those of you already accepted, congrats!... You will love your time here.
 
Haybrant, Creativewriter and similarly studly smarties:

Are you guys going to definitely go to Stanford? I see you both have excellent acceptances. I am wondering if I am wasting my time by going. I want to go because I think I might like it, but the late date is cause for concern.
 
GuyLaroche said:
Haybrant, Creativewriter and similarly studly smarties:

Are you guys going to definitely go to Stanford? I see you both have excellent acceptances. I am wondering if I am wasting my time by going. I want to go because I think I might like it, but the late date is cause for concern.

Hey GL--

I called to check on the status of my application (i.e., I wanted to see if it was lost, or if I had already been rejected and if my rejection letter was lost).
I am still in review.

I then asked the admissions coordinator if the class is full, and he gave me a resounding "no." They'll be doing interviews into April, and I guess they're hella behind, too.

So, g'luck! :luck:
 
GuyLaroche said:
Haybrant, Creativewriter and similarly studly smarties:

Are you guys going to definitely go to Stanford? I see you both have excellent acceptances. I am wondering if I am wasting my time by going. I want to go because I think I might like it, but the late date is cause for concern.


Hey guy; congrats on your own acceptances! they sent out an email yesterday to those accepted and there were ~80 or so people on it; Im not certain how many accept their spot but their class size is 86 so you figure they will accept at least 130-140; thats my guess but im sure there are still a good amount of spaces even if you interview in the next few wks. If you are not attracted to the location/curriculum/clinical training then maybe you ought to save your $; there were very few schools at which my interview day made me positively change my mind about a place. good luck
 
Haybrant said:
Hey guy; congrats on your own acceptances! they sent out an email yesterday to those accepted and there were ~80 or so people on it; Im not certain how many accept their spot but their class size is 86 so you figure they will accept at least 130-140; thats my guess but im sure there are still a good amount of spaces even if you interview in the next few wks. If you are not attracted to the location/curriculum/clinical training then maybe you ought to save your $; there were very few schools at which my interview day made me positively change my mind about a place. good luck


I am definitely going! But you should still interview. I think if you REALLY convince them that Stanford is where you wanna go, they will accept you...otherwise they would have not invited you for an interview...I know 3 people who are accepted who are not going bc they have Harvard, Penn, UMich (w/ full ride), Duke, etc...under their belt....so there is still hope
 
CreativeWriter said:
I am definitely going! But you should still interview. I think if you REALLY convince them that Stanford is where you wanna go, they will accept you...otherwise they would have not invited you for an interview...I know 3 people who are accepted who are not going bc they have Harvard, Penn, UMich (w/ full ride), Duke, etc...under their belt....so there is still hope

I interviewed Monday and absolutely loved it. Here's hoping to an acceptance!

Best of luck to all in the process :D
 
old macdonald said:
I interviewed Monday and absolutely loved it. Here's hoping to an acceptance!

Best of luck to all in the process :D

Thanks for the best wishes...please take the time to post. Good luck this spring.
 
I hope some of you find out today about your acceptance Status...the Admit Weekend is in one month!!! i m so excited.

if you have questions about the interview, feel free to email me. I did post in interview feedback, but in case you want a more detailed review...

lata


neuroethicist said:
Thanks for the best wishes...please take the time to post. Good luck this spring.
 
Still waiting for that small envelope... :)
 
CreativeWriter said:
I hope some of you find out today about your acceptance Status...the Admit Weekend is in one month!!! i m so excited.

if you have questions about the interview, feel free to email me. I did post in interview feedback, but in case you want a more detailed review...

lata

Exactly one month from today? How long did it take them to get back to you once you interviewed?
 
My file is with the committee this week, so if I hear anything tonight I will be sure to post :)

Treg
 
Treg said:
My file is with the committee this week, so if I hear anything tonight I will be sure to post :)

Treg


good luck treg, but didnt you get the washu merit scholarship? Me thinks stanford would be out of your running, esp. since you didnt like the interview day, no?

Guy, it took under two wks to hear back; i interviewed on tuesday and heard the following thursday. But i think it varies; others have heard up to a month or so.
 
Haybrant said:
good luck treg, but didnt you get the washu merit scholarship? Me thinks stanford would be out of your running, esp. since you didnt like the interview day, no?

Guy, it took under two wks to hear back; i interviewed on tuesday and heard the following thursday. But i think it varies; others have heard up to a month or so.

Yeah, I am just waiting to find out the final decision on my app, since this is the last US school I have left to hear from. I am looking forward to closure at this point :)

Treg
 
Hey all, I got the call from Dean Garcia tonight. It's awesome to be accepted to Stanford, but I am pretty sure that I will be elsewhere this fall. Good luck to those of you on the waitlist :luck:

Treg
 
Treg said:
Hey all, I got the call from Dean Garcia tonight. It's awesome to be accepted to Stanford, but I am pretty sure that I will be elsewhere this fall. Good luck to those of you on the waitlist :luck:

Treg

congrats on your recent acceptance, and multiple full tuition scholarships. I wish you the best on your decision, regardless of where you go!

Best wishes to all of you,
 
Treg said:
Hey all, I got the call from Dean Garcia tonight. It's awesome to be accepted to Stanford, but I am pretty sure that I will be elsewhere this fall. Good luck to those of you on the waitlist :luck:

Treg

Congratulations Treg, darling. Really, good work.

Now back to my true, selfish intentions: when did you interview? How long did it take to hear back? If you're so sure of that you won't attend, do you mind withdrawing as I understand the class is close to full, and I am quite interested in the school. (Always funny how people make this request as though they are the ones up for immediate consideration upon the withdrawal of another person).

Again, congratulations. And really, I truly mean it lucky, lucky girl that you are. *whispers: b!tch!* Which med school are you likely to attend?
 
GuyLaroche said:
Congratulations Treg, darling. Really, good work.

Now back to my true, selfish intentions: when did you interview? How long did it take to hear back? If you're so sure of that you won't attend, do you mind withdrawing as I understand the class is close to full, and I am quite interested in the school. (Always funny how people make this request as though they are the ones up for immediate consideration upon the withdrawal of another person).

Again, congratulations. And really, I truly mean it lucky, lucky girl that you are. *whispers: b!tch!* Which med school are you likely to attend?

I interviewed 2/28, so I guess it took 3.5 weeks to hear back. I will withdraw from nearly all schools next week, once I have time to draft the letters. I am either going to U. of Alberta or Wash U at this point :)

Thanks guys, SDNers are a rare breed of crazy yet mostly wonderful people. :D

Treg
 
Posted this in the recent interview invitations thread, but thought you guys might know better:

Is Stanford still interviewing?

I just walked past Gabriel Garcia (assoc dean of admissions) in the hospital a few minutes ago and said, "hi dr. garcia" (he was an advisor for this group I was in 3 years ago) but I don't think he remembered me. I wanted to ask him about interviews, but I chickened out at the last second. Damn. What would you guys have done?

Stanford is my last standing CA and top-tier hope... PLEASE!!!
 
doozenberg said:
Posted this in the recent interview invitations thread, but thought you guys might know better:

Is Stanford still interviewing?

I just walked past Gabriel Garcia (assoc dean of admissions) in the hospital a few minutes ago and said, "hi dr. garcia" (he was an advisor for this group I was in 3 years ago) but I don't think he remembered me. I wanted to ask him about interviews, but I chickened out at the last second. Damn. What would you guys have done?

Stanford is my last standing CA and top-tier hope... PLEASE!!!

Do you know where he lives? Just kidding.

I don't know if this is much help but I've heard that Stanford's interviewing into April. That's only part of it. The real question is if they're still offering interviews or they've already given out all the interview slots and are in the process of interviewing which will finish in April. Oy!

Anyway, good luck. Post something if you hear from them. I know I'm sitting on pins and needles waiting for them. Stanford is my only CA and top-tier hope!

Sam
 
SamDC said:
Do you know where he lives? Just kidding.

I don't know if this is much help but I've heard that Stanford's interviewing into April. That's only part of it. The real question is if they're still offering interviews or they've already given out all the interview slots and are in the process of interviewing which will finish in April. Oy!

Anyway, good luck. Post something if you hear from them. I know I'm sitting on pins and needles waiting for them. Stanford is my only CA and top-tier hope!

Sam


Play it again Sam...same here with Stanford being my only CA and top-tier hope at this point.

I interviewed on the 21st...and loved the school. While I was promised beautiful California weather during my stay, I was greeted by weather not unlike that of Baltimore, MD where I am currently.

Basically, it's a great place with a plethora of fantastic research and clinical care opportunities. I'll definitely feel sad if I don't get this one :cool:

Best of luck to all and congrats to those accepted!
 
whoa nusse! said:
The clinical training really concerns me, though. :( It's good and all, but I don't know if it can stack up to some of the other insititutions I am considering.
-WN!

What specifically concerns you about the clinical training? This is a vague criticism that is often freely thrown about. It would be easier to validate or allay your concerns if you provided more details.

In medical school, the motivated student can get as good clinical training as he or she desires. As AJM mentioned, we have 5 main teaching hospitals that students rotate through. Depending on the specialty, some offer more in-depth experiences than others. Let's take OB/GYN for example. Some students want to deliver as many babies as possible. Other's could care less. If you are of the former group, you can rotate through Santa Clara Valley, which is a veritable baby factory for the south bay. They have a very high volume of deliveries, and the patients generally accept *very* high levels of student involvement. If, on the other hand, you would be happy never to deliver a baby, you can rotate at Kaiser Santa Clara, where students are less involved.

The clinical training is as involved as you want it to be. That's the beauty of Stanford. Everything is so incredibly invidualized. So many of my classmates did non-traditional things, like getting Stanford MBAs or starting companies. Others focused on hard-core clinical experiences. It is really up to you, and the school supports you in whatever you do. There is tons of elective time, tons of flexibility, and tons of money to support you in your endeavors. I think the philosophy of the school, in general, is to take qualified and motivated individuals, and then to allow them to create the experience that is best for them. This is in stark contrast to other schools, where students go through the curriculum basically in lock step.

Does this flexibility mean that clinical training is compromised? No one comes out of this system deficient, although it is possible some students have a clinical experience that is less broad because they spent more time doing research, community service, getting extra degrees, etc. In the end though, we all have to pass the same basic exams, learn the same basic skills, and all your real skills training happens in residency anyway.

I often wonder what it is about Stanford that gives it this reputation. is it the fact that it is located in a very beautiful, picturesque environment that makes it seem country-clubish? I don't know. At any rate, our graduates typically go on to do residencies at 3 major places: Harvard programs, Stanford, and UCSF. And then there is a large assortment of other great institutions that we match into. I dont know if the word on the street at these other institutions is that Stanford grads are deficient. To be fair, i'd really have no real basis for judging this, but i think one can rest assured that they will getting good clinical training at Stanford, as well as at any other medical school. Make your choice based on what you want out of medical school and how each school's offering compares to your needs.

Good luck everyone!!
 
Thanks so much for the input GasEmDee! :D

Two of my minor concerns with the clinical experience are:
1) patient diversity (which you and others addressed very well)
2) facilities (smaller hospital = less resources? and age). Any thoughts here?
 
microTAS said:
Two of my minor concerns with the clinical experience are:
1) patient diversity (which you and others addressed very well)
2) facilities (smaller hospital = less resources? and age). Any thoughts here?

Our facilities:

1) Stanford Hospital is the major tertiary care facility that also serves the local community. The outside appearance of the hospital won't win any major beauty contests -- which is in stark contrast to everything else on campus -- but the hospital itself is pretty state of the art. There is some aging equipment around in the ORs (soon to be replaced) that was not updated because of the financial disaster from a failed merger with UCSF back in the late 90's. However, overall the facilities are pretty modern, with great computer-order-entry and lab-retrieval system. The campus has a brand new clinical sciences building and a brand new cancer center, both just completed. Plans are underway to build several additional educational and clinical facilities. Stanford has done a good job at staying profitable at a time when academic medical centers have a hard time doing so. http://www.stanfordhospital.com/

2) Kaiser Santa Clara - Our private HMO site, and the flagship Kaiser for the region. The current facilities are *very* old and dumpy -- built in the 60's i think, but they have already finished construction on a brand replacement hospital that is more than twice the size, and they will be moving into their new hospital over the next year. The new Kaiser campus looks pretty nice, and you will benefit from the new facilities.
http://www.kaisersantaclara.org/newmob/index.html

3) Santa Clara Valley Hospital - This is our county hospital, but it looks NOTHING like a county hospital. It's very clean, very modern, and well-staffed. It's got great translator services for the myriad of non-english-speaking patients that it draws. The main thing that I dont like about the place is that it still does not have computer order entry. Half of the hospital is brand-spanking new, and a new specialty-services pavillion is under construction at the moment and will be ready by the time you hit your clinical years.
http://www.scvmed.org

4) Palo ALto VA is our VA hospital, and also the flagship VA in the region. This hospital was recently constructed/rennovated and probably is the most modern in terms of information-technology infrastrucure (paperless system). I guess no expense was spared, because everything from progress notes/H&Ps to labs to medical record is accessible via computer.
http://www.palo-alto.med.va.gov/show.asp?durki=748

5) Lucile Salter Packard Children's Hospital - This hospital, which is contiguous with Stanford hospital, is probably a little older than 10 years. I had just one month of experience here and dont know much more about it in terms of equipment, but the place sure does look nice.
http://www.lpch.org/aboutUs/index.html

Overall there are plenty of resources and most facilities are relatively new. Probably the biggest facilities criticism, from a med students point of view, is the really lousy physical library. We have a great online and comprehensive electronic library, but our physical library is just a dump. The student study areas are pretty limited as well. The school of medicine is aware of this, and they are going to construct new state-of-the art educational faclities, but i dont know when these will be done.

In terms of the diversity of patients, I'd have to guess that the one deficiency we have relative to our arch-competitor (UCSF) is the homeless population. We do see a lot of common diseases and diseases that are quite severe at first presentation (particularly at Valley, that serves the underserved), but we dont seem to see the huge numbers of the homeless that the UCSF sysem does (thats my gut feeling). Also, UCSF undoubtedly see's a lot more AIDS.
 
GasEmDee said:
What specifically concerns you about the clinical training? This is a vague criticism that is often freely thrown about. It would be easier to validate or allay your concerns if you provided more details.
....

Well according to the dean of the medical school, Dr. Phillip Pizzo (I wonder if he is the brother of Dr. Sal Pizzo at Duke. They kinda look alike):


"Even as we extol the accomplishments of our students and graduate medical training programs it is important also to acknowledge more sobering data that was presented to the Medical School Faculty Senate on Wednesday March 16th. These data were regarding the performance of our students in the Clinical Performance Examination and on the evaluation of our first and fourth quarter course evaluations. More specifically, I am not pleased with the Clinical Performance results that evaluate the history taking and physical examination skills of our students. It seems clear that we need to improve both as an institution in emphasizing these skills. A problem that has been clearly identified is the difficulty in getting faculty to engage and teach physical exam and history taking skills. Certainly I recognize that identifying experienced faculty to teach has become more challenging due to the time constraints on faculty. But the consequences are too serious to ignore. We must do better. I want to call this matter to the attention our faculty and implore each person to participate more fully in bedside teaching. We will be talking about this issue more broadly and identifying a remediation plan that will be discussed in the near future."


This summarizes some of the concerns people have about Stanford's clinical training.
 
GuyLaroche said:
Well according to the dean of the medical school, Dr. Phillip Pizzo (I wonder if he is the brother of Dr. Sal Pizzo at Duke. They kinda look alike):


"Even as we extol the accomplishments of our students and graduate medical training programs it is important also to acknowledge more sobering data that was presented to the Medical School Faculty Senate on Wednesday March 16th. These data were regarding the performance of our students in the Clinical Performance Examination and on the evaluation of our first and fourth quarter course evaluations. More specifically, I am not pleased with the Clinical Performance results that evaluate the history taking and physical examination skills of our students. It seems clear that we need to improve both as an institution in emphasizing these skills. A problem that has been clearly identified is the difficulty in getting faculty to engage and teach physical exam and history taking skills. Certainly I recognize that identifying experienced faculty to teach has become more challenging due to the time constraints on faculty. But the consequences are too serious to ignore. We must do better. I want to call this matter to the attention our faculty and implore each person to participate more fully in bedside teaching. We will be talking about this issue more broadly and identifying a remediation plan that will be discussed in the near future."


This summarizes some of the concerns people have about Stanford's clinical training.

For the record, I think that Stanford is an amazing school. I am still waiting to either be rejected or invited for an interview (highly unlikely).

However, I spent one summer doing research at Stanford, and the professor with whom I worked--a clinical faculty member and senior researcher--told me that Stanford does not do a good job preparing its students for residencies. He specifically cited poor clinical preparation during years 3+4 (as described above).

But this is coming from one person, so please don't flame me...I still think Stanford is an amazing program. Like any other school, however, it has its deficiencies.
 
Tra La La said:
For the record, I think that Stanford is an amazing school. I am still waiting to either be rejected or invited for an interview (highly unlikely).

However, I spent one summer doing research at Stanford, and the professor with whom I worked--a clinical faculty member and senior researcher--told me that Stanford does not do a good job preparing its students for residencies. He specifically cited poor clinical preparation during years 3+4 (as described above).

But this is coming from one person, so please don't flame me...I still think Stanford is an amazing program. Like any other school, however, it has its deficiencies.

i am tempted to post what gasem told me about this b.c it is an excellent point, but since it was a private message ill let him/her post it.
 
Haybrant said:
i am tempted to post what gasem told me about this b.c it is an excellent point, but since it was a private message ill let him/her post it.

Haybrant, can you private me what gasem told you? Also, I love Stanford from a research standpoint. My competitors in my research area are largely at Stanford and let me tell you they are winning. Naturally, Stanford interests me a lot. Still, this business about clinical training is course for concern. If there is anything you know, please share.
 
According to student surveys, the 3+4 years aren't bad. Compare Stanford w/ Hopkins, UCSF, HMS, WashU, and UPenn.

http://www.amsa.org/premed/medsurvey/

Of course only a handful of students filled the survey from each school, but it beats hearing from one person (n = 1) :p
 
GuyLaroche said:
Well according to the dean of the medical school, Dr. Phillip Pizzo (I wonder if he is the brother of Dr. Sal Pizzo at Duke. They kinda look alike):

It's fair to be concerned based on these comments. Dean Pizzo wrote those in his last Deans News letter.

1) I doubt he is referring to the USMLE Step 2 Clinical Skills exam, because everyone has passed so far, and also because the results are reported as Pass or Fail

2) We do have an internal Clinical Skills Exam. He may be referring to our performance on that, but I have not checked. This is an exam that many of our students find to be a complete annoyance. It is very contrived (uses actors as patients) and not much like a real patient encounter. It is meant to prepare students for the USMLE Step 2 CS as well as catch students who may be grossly deficient in their skills. Many students blow it off. I refer you to the numerous threads in the USMLE forum:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=27,

where students complain how completely contrived and useless the Step 2 CS exam is . Students at Stanford are no different, and many of them blow off the exam. But again, I'm not sure if this is what Dean Pizzo is referring to.

3) The most concerning possibility would be if Dean Pizzo was referring to the evaluations that students submit at the end of each clinical rotation. In these evaluations, students are asked to rate the rotation along a number of different axes. One of them naturally deals with clinical skills. I personally, on a few occasions, used this evaluation to suggest that there could be more bedside teaching from attendings. It was nothing grave, it was just that there were a few attendings that I thought were too hands off. I suggested this after one or two rotations, because I like to get my tuition's worth. Perhaps other students had similar experiences? Given that I have only gone to medical school once, I dont how this would have differed at any other medical school.

Regardless, the bottom line is this: we have a great match list from year to year. We place at great institutions in competitive specialties. Somehow, these insitutions have not stop taking our graduates, so I guess they cannot be terribly bothered.

Furthemore -- and this really is a side note -- your real skills training doesnt happen in medical school. In medical school, you learn the vocabulary of medicine (preclinical years) and then get an initial exposure to the healthcare environment (clinical years) along with some very rudimentary clinical skills (e.g., physical exam, placing IVs in easy veins, uncomplicated vaginal deliveries, a little suturing). On the day you get our M.D., you will realize that you have acquired a fair amount of medical knowledge, but hardly any skills to be useful as a physician. That part comes in residency.

I would select your medical school based on the following broad and necessarily vague criteria
1) Would you be happy living in the area?
2) What are your goals in medical school, and what resources does the school offer you to achieve those goals?
3) In terms of prestige and the value of a school as a stepping stone to the next level, the match list really says it all. Take a look at each school's match list. Is that school successful in placing students into the kinds of institutions that you are interested in for residency?

It's reasonable for all of you to express these concerns. Its a 4-year investment and the decision is not to be taken lightly. Howver, I can assure you that graduates of Stanford medicine manage to do alright :)

Good luck to you all in your decision.
 
So I looked into the issue of Dean Pizzo's recent message on his disatisfaction with Stanford student's clinical skills exam. I found out that he is referring to the in-house clinical skills exam (standardized patients exam) that Stanford students take in their final clinical year. I feel very strongly that our "disatisfactory" performance on this exam can be attributed to pure senioritis and utter blase' over the exam, as it doesnt count for anything (you just have to pass) and it's a very contrived exam (actors posing as patients, feigning symptoms and distress). Take my perspective as you see fit, but it might be helpful to ask 4th year students at other schools about how they feel about their 4th-year clinical skills exams (and the step 2 cs exam) before ruling Stanford out. There is more information to be had on the USMLE forum of this website.
 
thanks for looking into that for us gasem; great posts.

Could current med students comment about housing at Stanford. Do most med students live in grad housing? Which housing do med students generally choose? thanks!
 
Haybrant said:
thanks for looking into that for us gasem; great posts.

Could current med students comment about housing at Stanford. Do most med students live in grad housing? Which housing do med students generally choose? thanks!

I'm not a student (I interviewed there last week) but lived in the area for a long time and would say it would be pretty sweet if you got a place at the Oak Creek Apartment complex just down sand hill road. They are really nice and and from what I hear they have an agreement with stanford. Since I'm not a current student I could have no idea what I'm talking about....but if I get in thats where I'm living.
 
the Admit weekend is coming up...I think Yale and Harvard have it on the same weekend!
 
CreativeWriter said:
the Admit weekend is coming up...I think Yale and Harvard have it on the same weekend!

Um, I finally got an interview for the second week of April. :laugh:
 
Tra La La said:
Um, I finally got an interview for the second week of April. :laugh:


at least you know the turnaround time will be quick! You must have one of the last interview times i assume
 
Haybrant said:
at least you know the turnaround time will be quick! You must have one of the last interview times i assume

I think I will be there on the second to last day of interviews.

Oh well...better later than never. :)
 
Tra La La said:
Um, I finally got an interview for the second week of April. :laugh:

I knew they would come to the right sense and give you an interview!

best of luck, hit me up if you have any questions!!

Gabi
 
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