Starting Salary?

[RU1992]

Hey guys. I haven't posted on here in a while, but my friends and I were arguing in dental school and curious about the starting salary ranges for a General Dentist. We've heard presentations from Financial Aid and from Advisors that essentially say two opposite ends of the spectrum. Let's say in the New Jersey area (New York, etc.), a General Dentist that didn't go through the residency or a GPR/AEGD training but went straight to work after 4 years of dental school. What would be the typical starting salary? Just curious from people who are currently applying to jobs or have recent experience with this. Thanks in advance!

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[Longcatislong]

Hey guys. I haven't posted on here in a while, but my friends and I were arguing in dental school and curious about the starting salary ranges for a General Dentist. We've heard presentations from Financial Aid and from Advisors that essentially say two opposite ends of the spectrum. Let's say in the New Jersey area (New York, etc.), a General Dentist that didn't go through the residency or a GPR/AEGD training but went straight to work after 4 years of dental school. What would be the typical starting salary? Just curious from people who are currently applying to jobs or have recent experience with this. Thanks in advance!

I'm not a dentist (will be starting D1 in 2014). However, over on Dentaltown I've seen anywhere between 90K and up to 150K, depending on who you work for and where you work.

 

[OhioDMD]

$450 - $550 per day or 30% of adjusted gross production whichever is greater. Guaranteed for 9 months then 30% of adjusted gross production. Adjusted production is gross production less insurance write offs and charge backs. My associate is on track to make $110,000 - $120,000 the first 12 months and should make better than $150,000 the next year.

 

[Silent Cool]

$450 - $550 per day or 30% of adjusted gross production whichever is greater. Guaranteed for 9 months then 30% of adjusted gross production. Adjusted production is gross production less insurance write offs and charge backs. My associate is on track to make $110,000 - $120,000 the first 12 months and should make better than $150,000 the next year.

Ohio,

Thanks for the cold, hard numbers. Many on these forums won't deliver that but I appreciate your willingness to.

For a more saturated city--say, Boston, Seattle, DC, Maimi, etc..--what numbers could a dentist expect for associate and practice-owner ?
thanx
-sc

 

[periopocket]

Ohio thanks for such great information. Your posts are always so informative! God bless!

 

[Ferneezy]

$450 - $550 per day or 30% of adjusted gross production whichever is greater. Guaranteed for 9 months then 30% of adjusted gross production. Adjusted production is gross production less insurance write offs and charge backs. My associate is on track to make $110,000 - $120,000 the first 12 months and should make better than $150,000 the next year.

doc, i've heard of paying associates based on production (as you do) or on collections. is there a fundamental difference between the two?

edit: on reread it looks like your agp is actually collections. am i in the ballpark?

 

[OhioDMD]

doc, i've heard of paying associates based on production (as you do) or on collections. is there a fundamental difference between the two?

edit: on reread it looks like your agp is actually collections. am i in the ballpark?

My practice historically runs at least 97% collections so production and collection are practically the same in my office. However most new associates would/should be paid on production since collections can run 4-8 weeks behind production depending on what procedure is being done.

Adjusted gross production usually applies to the difference in fees from the offices fee schedule and what an insurance company allows in a ppo arrangement. However it also can apply in my office to procedures done without following office protocol concerning prior payment arrangements if the patient defaults.

 

[RU1992]

Ohio, I sent you a private message (I believe I tried to, but not sure if it went through). It'd be great if you could reach out to me once you get a chance! Thanks so much!

 

[Shunwei]

doc, i've heard of paying associates based on production (as you do) or on collections. is there a fundamental difference between the two?

edit: on reread it looks like your agp is actually collections. am i in the ballpark?

Oh, is there ever. Before you hit the job market you better make sure you understand the two concepts ice cold. Production (or adjusted production) is based on the procedures you do, i.e. for services rendered. Collection is the actual amount of money your patients pay you (money in hand). The two may seem the same but are actually quite different in many instances.

I know many dentists (corporate and private) that love to pay their dentists on collections. Their excuses are almost always either "I can't pay you until I get paid" or " I am giving you a part in ownership of this office." All of this is bulls**t. Unless you really have equity in the office or have a say in the clinical/management matters, you should not have to be tasked with the onus of ownership duties. Once the office reaches a financial agreement with the patient and have you pick up a handpiece, you should be compensated for your time and effort, no questions asked. And it would save you a hell lot of time pouring through databases everyday to check to make sure that your patients have paid.

My first job out of school was for a company called MyDentist. When I spoke originally with its CEO (Kevin Offel), he claimed that the company's collection rates were 97% (in theory, a good office should always approach 98-99%). However, only later on did I find out that was a lie, at least in the TX region where I work. There, the company is trying to build clientele and grab market share, so it is willing to accept short-term losses with poorly structured and risky financial deals to individuals with spotty credit. In the one year that I worked there my collection rate was only 70%--so on a 28% collection pay rate, my true effective pay rate was only 19.6%. So for every 5 dollars I produced, I got paid less than one. Now, I did produce a lot (mainly because I am efficient and fast), but in the end before I got fed up and left my Accounts/Receivable stood at over $180,000, meaning the company actually owed me over $50k for services rendered but for which I never got paid.

So, for any associate job, whenever possible, always go for one which pays on production (like what I am in now). It makes accounting much simpler, and you go home everyday knowing exactly what you are taking with you that day. I would take a position that pays on production anyday over a job that pays on collection, even if the theoretical difference between the two is 5%. Otherwise, effectively you are really just signing up for a secondary job as a poster/collector for the owner dentist.

 

[suarez 7]

Oh, is there ever. Before you hit the job market you better make sure you understand the two concepts ice cold. Production (or adjusted production) is based on the procedures you do, i.e. for services rendered. Collection is the actual amount of money your patients pay you (money in hand). The two may seem the same but are actually quite different in many instances.

I know many dentists (corporate and private) that love to pay their dentists on collections. Their excuses are almost always either "I can't pay you until I get paid" or " I am giving you a part in ownership of this office." All of this is bulls**t. Unless you really have equity in the office or have a say in the clinical/management matters, you should not have to be tasked with the onus of ownership duties. Once the office reaches a financial agreement with the patient and have you pick up a handpiece, you should be compensated for your time and effort, no questions asked. And it would save you a hell lot of time pouring through databases everyday to check to make sure that your patients have paid.

My first job out of school was for a company called MyDentist. When I spoke originally with its CEO (Kevin Offel), he claimed that the company's collection rates were 97% (in theory, a good office should always approach 98-99%). However, only later on did I find out that was a lie, at least in the TX region where I work. There, the company is trying to build clientele and grab market share, so it is willing to accept short-term losses with poorly structured and risky financial deals to individuals with spotty credit. In the one year that I worked there my collection rate was only 70%--so on a 28% collection pay rate, my true effective pay rate was only 19.6%. So for every 5 dollars I produced, I got paid less than one. Now, I did produce a lot (mainly because I am efficient and fast), but in the end before I got fed up and left my Accounts/Receivable stood at over $180,000, meaning the company actually owed me over $50k for services rendered but for which I never got paid.

So, for any associate job, whenever possible, always go for one which pays on production (like what I am in now). It makes accounting much simpler, and you go home everyday knowing exactly what you are taking with you that day. I would take a position that pays on production anyday over a job that pays on collection, even if the theoretical difference between the two is 5%. Otherwise, effectively you are really just signing up for a secondary job as a poster/collector for the owner dentist.

Thanks for your reply. If a new dentist got offered an associate gig at a private practice w/ a collection rate of ~97%, and he is being paid on that amount do you think that's still acceptable?

Also I am always curious as to what happens with unpaid services. You delivered $50k worth of treatment but didn't get paid, doesn't that amount get sent to the collections agency so you can recuperate most of that amount?

 

[Shunwei]

Thanks for your reply. If a new dentist got offered an associate gig at a private practice w/ a collection rate of ~97%, and he is being paid on that amount do you think that's still acceptable?

Also I am always curious as to what happens with unpaid services. You delivered $50k worth of treatment but didn't get paid, doesn't that amount get sent to the collections agency so you can recuperate most of that amount?

you can send unpaid services to collections but if the pt has no money you still get nothing. you simply put a dent in their credit but if the person already has poor credit to start with they wouldn't care. this is why I am always against the idea of seting up complex and lengthy payment plans with patients, the only possible exception being patients with a very long history and demonstrated loyalty/payment history to the office. People like Dick Barnes like to advocate this kind of thing but I see nothing but trouble with these kind of arrangements.

if given an option of being paid for production vs. collection, I would unequivocally go for the production option all of the time unless the difference is tremendous (like 35% collections vs 17% production). what many don't realize is that a lot of places don't pay trailing collections. therefore, when you leave the office you don't get paid for any collections coming in after your leave date but for which you have done work. and not to mention that you have to act as a bookkeeper for the owner dentist to keep track of your collections accounts which after a while may be a whole spreadsheet of patients. no thanks, I will take production anyday--with that I know exactly how much I am going home with any given day.

 

[Illfavor]

if given an option of being paid for production vs. collection, I would unequivocally go for the production option all of the time unless the difference is tremendous (like 35% collections vs 17% production). what many don't realize is that a lot of places don't pay trailing collections. therefore, when you leave the office you don't get paid for any collections coming in after your leave date but for which you have done work. and not to mention that you have to act as a bookkeeper for the owner dentist to keep track of your collections accounts which after a while may be a whole spreadsheet of patients. no thanks, I will take production anyday--with that I know exactly how much I am going home with any given day.

This is so scummy. Do associates try and get some sort of "trail pay" guarantee? Why is the field full of so many people trying to take advantage of each other?

 

[Shunwei]

This is so scummy. Do associates try and get some sort of "trail pay" guarantee? Why is the field full of so many people trying to take advantage of each other?

Getting a trail pay guarantee is hard and in any case had to enforce. After you leave, you generally can't and don't have the right to track your own collections. So even if a place pays you trailing collections, you can't really know whether you are getting your fair share. It is quite unfortunate that many dentists treat their colleagues like ****, but it's true. And corporate is probably worse in this regard.

The place I worked for, MyDentist, carries this to a further extreme. They like to set up payment plans so that, for example, instead of a $900 lump sum payment for a crown they will offer a patient the option of paying 9 monthly payments of $100 each. Aside from the fact that this introduces patient negligence in paying and also is a sucky deal for the dentist (would you like to get paid $900 one time or get 9 monthly installments?), if the dentist gets fired or leaves at any time in the middle of these deals the balance of any remaining collections goes to the company. A very shrewd and underhanded way to further undercut a dentist's rightful earnings and scam more money for themselves.