step 1 cutoff scores

[Colba55o]

spoke with the gas residency program administrator at my school and she told me that our step 1 cutoff score for even looking at apps is 225. I was surprised that it was so high given that I was told the average score of people who interviewed last year was 230 but anyway...
What annoys me is that it doesnt seem that this info is made public. This program is probably considered mid - high tier but I'm SURE that many people will apply with step 1s under 225. If programs made this info public wouldnt it stand to reason that this would save time and money, keeping you from applying to programs that won't look at your application?
I saw a thread a few years ago on another forum where people tried compiling a list of step 1 cutoff scores for various programs. Of course that assumes that people would tell the truth, which in this competitive application season would appear to be a naiive assumption.
Thoughts?

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[pseudoknot]

Given the data in Charting Outcomes in the Match, that's a little hard to believe. If true it is clearly exceptional and not a big deal for most applicants.

 

[lfesiam]

Given the data in Charting Outcomes in the Match, that's a little hard to believe. If true it is clearly exceptional and not a big deal for most applicants.

i heard some require your Step 2 scores for interviews. rumors, not sure if this is true, some also work on a point system on 7-14 categories... i.e. Step 250+ gets you 2 points, Step 230+ gets you 1 point, Step 200-230 gets you 0 point, Step below 200 no interviews. Extensive Research/Publications gets you a point. Glowing LOR gets you a point. Clerkship grades gets you a point...Ties to the area get you 1/2 a point... and etc.... certain amount of points get you the interview...blah blah you get the point. all speculations...so once again, I will post my salt shaker picture.

 

[LonghornJPS]

If you havn't seen this yet, you might find it helpful.
http://anesthesiology.matchapplicants.com/select.php

Some programs do publish their cutoff scores. Here is what MCW has posted on their website:
http://www.mcw.edu/display/router.asp?docid=6715

 

[Colba55o]

Given the data in Charting Outcomes in the Match, that's a little hard to believe. If true it is clearly exceptional and not a big deal for most applicants.

Why is this hard to believe? The charting outcomes (which is from two years ago mind you) has the avg step 1 for gas at 220. Its believable that a school would set its cutoff at above average. The administrator I spoke to cited the programs "100% pass rate on anesthesia boards" as the reason for the high cutoff.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I have a friend who passed by a point, got multiple interviews, and matched at a "not bad" program in a popular location.

 

[RxBoy]

I know a lot of middle tier programs cutoffs are at 85 for US and 90 for FMG (Like 200 and 220 respectively). You just have to call the program and a lot of times they will tell you bluntly.

 

[fakin' the funk]

If you havn't seen this yet, you might find it helpful.
http://anesthesiology.matchapplicants.com/select.php

This would be a great site if not for the weird ads and the inaccurate Step 1 scores.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Given the data in Charting Outcomes in the Match, that's a little hard to believe. If true it is clearly exceptional and not a big deal for most applicants.

On the UAB site they have a graph w/ their average-interviewed Step 1 scores. Something like 235.

 

[scotchnwater]

Why is this hard to believe? The charting outcomes (which is from two years ago mind you) has the avg step 1 for gas at 220. Its believable that a school would set its cutoff at above average. The administrator I spoke to cited the programs "100% pass rate on anesthesia boards" as the reason for the high cutoff.

The reason this is hard to believe is because WELL OVER HALF of the programs out there tout cutoffs above 220. The math does not support this actually being the case.

Also, I'm not a statistician so my logic may be off here, but the average Step I score being 220 does not inherently imply that half of the applicants scored above that number, with the other half scoring below that (having a median score of 220 would). I'm just saying that it's conceivable that having an average of 220 could represent a chunk of people clustered around the 210 mark, balanced out by a handful of people in the 240+ range.

In fact, the 2008 Charting Outcomes in the Match data bears this out to a small degree, with 514 people matching in to Anesthesia posting scores below 220, with 488 people above that mark.

I would find it very hard to believe that all the programs out there that say they have a 220 cutoff (or higher) are interviewing the same 488 applicants.

 

[RxBoy]

You have to remember there is an unequal interview preference for some of the bigger names. For example, a lot more people will apply to Columbia or Cornell over one of the Brooklyn programs. Being so, most top applicants will apply there so they have a lot of the superstar candidates to choose from. They can choose these high cutoffs because they have enough supply. Typically, programs interview 10 people per every spot (best insurance policy to fill). If a top program has 10 spots for example, I am sure there are more than 100 applicants with a 220+. If they get more than a 100 230+, i'm sure they'll choose that as a cutoff.

You have to remember anesthesia is all about scores (unfortunately) when it comes to getting your foot in the door, then its up to the interview.

 

[scotchnwater]

You have to remember there is an unequal interview preference for some of the bigger names. For example, a lot more people will apply to Columbia or Cornell over one of the Brooklyn programs. Being so, most top applicants will apply there so they have a lot of the superstar candidates to choose from. They can choose these high cutoffs because they have enough supply. Typically, programs interview 10 people per every spot (best insurance policy to fill). If a top program has 10 spots for example, I am sure there are more than 100 applicants with a 220+. If they get more than a 100 230+, i'm sure they'll choose that as a cutoff.

You have to remember anesthesia is all about scores (unfortunately) when it comes to getting your foot in the door, then its up to the interview.

Yeah, I'm aware, I did this whole silly game last year.

Your logic is flawed in that not all of the people with scores in those ranges will apply to ONLY the "top" programs. Last year I primarily applied in the midwest and west coast - others chose to stick to the south only, or maybe the east coast. Rest assured that all 488 people with scores over 220 did not apply to only the "top 50" programs in the country.

Let's take your example of the 100 applicants with a 230+ (of which there were only 269 in the entire US in 2007). Let's say they JUST stay on the East Coast. And they ONLY apply to "Big Name" programs:

Yale - 18 spots
Hopkins - 19 spots
BID - 16 spots
Brigham - 21 spots
MGH - 25 spots
NYU - 18 spots
Cornell - 18 spots
Columbia - 24 spots
U Penn - 21 spots

The total there is 180 spots (1/3 of them are Harvard alone). That leaves 89 "top" applicants left to compete for the spots all over the rest of the country, at no-name places like Mayo Clinic, Northwestern, UCSF, Stanford, CCF, and Wash U to name but a few.

How many "top" programs do you think there are? The latest discussion on this turned up a bunch - with lots being left out. How many slots do you think this represents? Just three "elite" programs I interviewed at last year (in one 5-day trip) had a combined 60-70 spots. Three programs. That's a TON of spots - and that's just in one super-specific geographic location. Large-name programs tend to be...ehem...larger, and thus have a lot more spots (look it up). They take a bigger share of the applicant pie.

It is precisely because of the reasons you cite (needing 7-10 interviews per spot available), that it's simply improbable that SO MANY programs could confine their pool to 220+ Step I scores and manage to fill.

Don't buy in to all the hype. You have to have solid credentials to do well in the match, but it's not the uber-competitive picture you are painting.

 

[nocebo]

You have to remember there is an unequal interview preference for some of the bigger names. For example, a lot more people will apply to Columbia or Cornell over one of the Brooklyn programs. Being so, most top applicants will apply there so they have a lot of the superstar candidates to choose from. They can choose these high cutoffs because they have enough supply. Typically, programs interview 10 people per every spot (best insurance policy to fill). If a top program has 10 spots for example, I am sure there are more than 100 applicants with a 220+. If they get more than a 100 230+, i'm sure they'll choose that as a cutoff.

You have to remember anesthesia is all about scores (unfortunately) when it comes to getting your foot in the door, then its up to the interview.

From someone at the beginning of M3 (and really considering anesthesiology, although it's still early): how much do grades matter? Not that I'd work any less hard if they don't, but it takes a lot of the stress off to know I'm going in every day to learn rather than fight tooth and nail for grades. My Step 1 was pretty solid.

 

[Trisomy13]

the mystical cut-offs are discussed every year, and every year i will say that there is obviously more to it than a strict cut-off, or i would not have interviewed at half the programs i did. the point system described above is much more likely. my step 1 was not much above 200, and i had several interviews at places where residents swear they have cut-offs at 220+.

just do your best, and apply where you want to interview, and see what happens. it's really that simple.

 

[fakin' the funk]

From someone at the beginning of M3 (and really considering anesthesiology, although it's still early): how much do grades matter? Not that I'd work any less hard if they don't, but it takes a lot of the stress off to know I'm going in every day to learn rather than fight tooth and nail for grades. My Step 1 was pretty solid.

This is answered directly or indirectly in the FAQs.

 

[GBFKicks]

the mystical cut-offs are discussed every year, and every year i will say that there is obviously more to it than a strict cut-off, or i would not have interviewed at half the programs i did. the point system described above is much more likely. my step 1 was not much above 200, and i had several interviews at places where residents swear they have cut-offs at 220+.

just do your best, and apply where you want to interview, and see what happens. it's really that simple.

For programs that list their "cut-off" score, are they just referring to a step 1 score, an average of step 1 and 2, or either score? I guess what I'm checking is if a good performance on step 2 would put an average step 1 beyond the "cut-off" mark at a more competitive program.

 

[bobow98]

So sorry to necrobump. But I just saw on frieda that cornell now had a 235 step 1 minimum for interview. How strict is this? Does that indicate anesthesiology step 1 is rapidly climbing?

 

[THEORIGINALLANNISTER]

So sorry to necrobump. But I just saw on frieda that cornell now had a 235 step 1 minimum for interview. How strict is this? Does that indicate anesthesiology step 1 is rapidly climbing?

I had below a 230 and I interviewed at Cornell.

 

[776880]

I had >230 and did not receive an interview at Cornell

 

[LeverArm]

I had >230 and did not receive an interview at Cornell

Same. I got invites at some pretty top notch places that I never expected and flat out rejections from several safeties. Overall the step scores are rising (like all standardized test scores everywhere in our country) but one of the most encouraging things about the future of our field is how many excellent, brilliant appearing med students recognize the potential and don't just get scared away by current uncertainty. This more than anything continues to give me faith that I did the right thing by choosing what is most interesting to me.

 

[cognitus]

Same. I got invites at some pretty top notch places that I never expected and flat out rejections from several safeties. Overall the step scores are rising (like all standardized test scores everywhere in our country) but one of the most encouraging things about the future of our field is how many excellent, brilliant appearing med students recognize the potential and don't just get scared away by current uncertainty. This more than anything continues to give me faith that I did the right thing by choosing what is most interesting to me.

I know that some programs have internal step 1 cutoffs but you can get an interview if the right people like you. That happened to me.

 

[AlgundiA]

The interviews come in waves and based on my experience and those of the people with whom I've talked at my school, it seems that the first wave of interviews goes out to a lot of the top Step1 scorers initially.
Most schedule a date and then start canceling later on when other more desirable ones makes offers, or when they realize they can't reasonably go to 15+ interviews and prelims/TYs ... or whatever. Then most programs open up their criteria and step 1 score restrictions and start offering to others based on other desirable things on an app.

Case in point, I'm at a not-elite med school and have a 250+ on step 1 and 260+ on step 2 and I did not get an offer from Hopkins.... but one of my best friends with a sub-200 on Step 1 (and slightly above average step 2) did get an offer there and interviewed. Likewise, he got interviews at Penn and Cornell and some others. Which is great because he's a great applicant in all other areas (and no not a PhD or even pubs or tons of stuff like that) and shows that while a top scorers might get first shot at interviews, they open up to a lot more people shortly after.

If you have a particular interest in an area or program for a specific reason (e.g. location, family, SO's job, etc), it can't hurt to let them know this after the first wave of interviews goes out ~Sept/Oct such that you might be given a closer look for the second wave. As has been said before, the worst case scenario is they still don't interview you.

 

[gasthrowaway]

Case in point, I'm at a not-elite med school and have a 250+ on step 1 and 260+ on step 2 and I did not get an offer from Hopkins.... but one of my best friends with a sub-200 on Step 1 (and slightly above average step 2) did get an offer there and interviewed. Likewise, he got interviews at Penn and Cornell and some others. Which is great because he's a great applicant in all other areas (and no not a PhD or even pubs or tons of stuff like that) and shows that while a top scorers might get first shot at interviews, they open up to a lot more people shortly after.

Life must be nice when you're a US MD. sub-200 step 1 and you get hopkins, cornell, upenn.... I talked to a DO on the trail that wanted to do an away at cornell and they told him not to bother because they flat out do not accept DOs. Doesn't matter if you're 270/270, they'll interview the MD with a 197 instead I guess.

It sounds like I'm whining, and I probably am, but it is frustrating at times. The gaps between those in DO schools and MDs school isn't as wide as you'd imagine. I was waitlisted at 2 MD schools and didn't quite make it. Chose DO instead of taking another year to apply again (that process was awful). Now I'm suddenly not even in the same stratosphere as my MD counterparts... But w/e, hopefully this unified accreditation system is a step towards ending this crap.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Life must be nice when you're a US MD. sub-200 step 1 and you get hopkins, cornell, upenn.... I talked to a DO on the trail that wanted to do an away at cornell and they told him not to bother because they flat out do not accept DOs. Doesn't matter if you're 270/270, they'll interview the MD with a 197 instead I guess.

It sounds like I'm whining, and I probably am, but it is frustrating at times. The gaps between those in DO schools and MDs school isn't as wide as you'd imagine. I was waitlisted at 2 MD schools and didn't quite make it. Chose DO instead of taking another year to apply again (that process was awful). Now I'm suddenly not even in the same stratosphere as my MD counterparts... But w/e, hopefully this unified accreditation system is a step towards ending this crap.

There isn't always rhyme or reason. I had a 200 Step I and I interviewed at Hopkins and Penn a few years ago.