Still Scheduling (Psych) Auditions with COVID Nonsense

[risperdoll]

So I can't be the only one (right??) who is feeling even more anxious surrounding my fourth year schedule with all of the impacts of COVID-19. Currently, I finally was able to schedule one audition at a place that I would definitely consider a "safety" if there is such a thing, but the majority of the places I'm really interested in haven't even gotten back to me with a rejection. Overall, I've applied to 11 places (2 date ranges each), with 2 rejections and the 1 acceptance. I've tried calling and emailing, but haven't gotten any responses at all. I'm relying pretty heavily on auditions and aways for the Fall since my core site and the surrounding area have virtually nothing pertinent to psychiatry and I need LORs and to demonstrate psych interest. Anyone else struggling with this or have any suggestions?

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[Futuredoc112]

hey I am in the same boat! can you DM me what you
are doing about this!

 

[Mass Effect]

Follow the guidelines and it won't bite you in the butt. We all live on the planet, we all know what's going on. No one is going to hold it against you that you didn't "show interest" in psych by doing a ton of aways. In fact, I dare say most psych programs prefer you NOT do aways at their institutions this year.

 

[Dr. Rafiki]

Program directors will not do what is "right", even given the current pandemic. This applies to any and all aspects of the traditional residency application process. PDs are lazy and will take the path of least resistance in selecting students for the match. For this reason, you need to keep / secure all the aways that you can, despite whatever guidelines are put forth. Some examples below:

An MD student who has no CS score due to suspension of the exam will be favored over one who has a fail but could not reschedule due to those same suspensions

A DO student who has a pass on the PE (DO equivalent to the CS) will be favored over one who has yet to take the exam, or who has a fail without a repeat try yet

A student who has completed an audition with the program will be favored over one who has not rotated there

A student who has rotated during their 3rd year core clerkship will be favored over one who has not rotated at all at the program

A student who knows the PD personally will be favored over one who does not know them

A student who is known by current residents (i.e. same alumnus group) will be favored over one who is not known

These truths were always true and will always be true, despite the unprecedented times. If the pandemic has shown us anything, it is that the leaders of medical education are grossly out of touch with reality and what is the "right" thing to do.

 

[Dr. Rafiki]

For reference, I know a student who is doing five away rotations in EM, despite the recommendation from EMRA. This student emailed or called each program to say "should I drop 4 of my 5 to comply" and was told, more or less, to keep what they have but do not attempt to secure more. Doing what is "right" will only benefit your moral sanity, it will not benefit your competitiveness to residency programs.

 

[ritts]

Program directors will not do what is "right", even given the current pandemic. This applies to any and all aspects of the traditional residency application process. PDs are lazy and will take the path of least resistance in selecting students for the match. For this reason, you need to keep / secure all the aways that you can, despite whatever guidelines are put forth. Some examples below:

An MD student who has no CS score due to suspension of the exam will be favored over one who has a fail but could not reschedule due to those same suspensions

A DO student who has a pass on the PE (DO equivalent to the CS) will be favored over one who has yet to take the exam, or who has a fail without a repeat try yet

A student who has completed an audition with the program will be favored over one who has not rotated there

A student who has rotated during their 3rd year core clerkship will be favored over one who has not rotated at all at the program

A student who knows the PD personally will be favored over one who does not know them

A student who is known by current residents (i.e. same alumnus group) will be favored over one who is not known

These truths were always true and will always be true, despite the unprecedented times. If the pandemic has shown us anything, it is that the leaders of medical education are grossly out of touch with reality and what is the "right" thing to do.

For reference, I know a student who is doing five away rotations in EM, despite the recommendation from EMRA. This student emailed or called each program to say "should I drop 4 of my 5 to comply" and was told, more or less, to keep what they have but do not attempt to secure more. Doing what is "right" will only benefit your moral sanity, it will not benefit your competitiveness to residency programs.

while I agree that some of these points are true, this will be a unique cycle and it will more likely be program dependent as far as application decisions go- probably more focused on board scores and research experiences. Traditionally, away rotations have been an important pull for lower tier schools but that will certainly be impacted this cycle.

This year, I absolutely disagree that one should take multiple away rotations. The coalition made pretty clear guidelines that one should limit them. I think that going against these guidelines will hurt someone more than help. Having letters from different institutions could be a red flag. I know of one program in particular that will be adhering to the guidelines because such an individual is putting him/herself above the safety of the community. You're just asking them to throw your app in the trash

 

[PsychHopeful2021]

while I agree that some of these points are true, this will be a unique cycle and it will more likely be program dependent as far as application decisions go- probably more focused on board scores and research experiences. Traditionally, away rotations have been an important pull for lower tier schools but that will certainly be impacted this cycle.

This year, I absolutely disagree that one should take multiple away rotations. The coalition made pretty clear guidelines that one should limit them. I think that going against these guidelines will hurt someone more than help. Having letters from different institutions could be a red flag. I know of one program in particular that will be adhering to the guidelines because such an individual is putting him/herself above the safety of the community. You're just asking them to throw your app in the trash

I agree with everything you said. What would you do with a program that has already accepted you for an away - pre-COVID quarantine - and has not cancelled it yet - it's in the Fall?

My worry is that I cancel the rotation, which from what I've heard, doesn't look favorably when applying to that program, but then again, I don't want PDs looking unfavorably on my application.

 

[ritts]

I agree with everything you said. What would you do with a program that has already accepted you for an away - pre-COVID quarantine - and has not cancelled it yet - it's in the Fall?

My worry is that I cancel the rotation, which from what I've heard, doesn't look favorably when applying to that program, but then again, I don't want PDs looking unfavorably on my application.

If I was in your situation, I would rotate with your home program again and email the other place and basically say: "Due to the recommendations by the national coalition, I will be unable to rotate outside of my home program. I hope this will not affect my application in the upcoming application cycle." I had to say something like that to a program I got accepted to before as well unfortunately (not psych).

 

[risperdoll]

If I was in your situation, I would rotate with your home program again and email the other place and basically say: "Due to the recommendations by the national coalition, I will be unable to rotate outside of my home program. I hope this will not affect my application in the upcoming application cycle." I had to say something like that to a program I got accepted to before as well unfortunately (not psych).

I think as long as you approach it as early as possible and maintain (everyone’s favorite) professionalism, they will be understanding. It’s not the same as when you turn down an audition offer because you got a better one from somewhere else (although I still think it’s dumb af that they penalize people for that too).

 

[Mass Effect]

Program directors will not do what is "right", even given the current pandemic. This applies to any and all aspects of the traditional residency application process. PDs are lazy and will take the path of least resistance in selecting students for the match. For this reason, you need to keep / secure all the aways that you can, despite whatever guidelines are put forth. Some examples below:

An MD student who has no CS score due to suspension of the exam will be favored over one who has a fail but could not reschedule due to those same suspensions

A DO student who has a pass on the PE (DO equivalent to the CS) will be favored over one who has yet to take the exam, or who has a fail without a repeat try yet

A student who has completed an audition with the program will be favored over one who has not rotated there

A student who has rotated during their 3rd year core clerkship will be favored over one who has not rotated at all at the program

A student who knows the PD personally will be favored over one who does not know them

A student who is known by current residents (i.e. same alumnus group) will be favored over one who is not known

These truths were always true and will always be true, despite the unprecedented times. If the pandemic has shown us anything, it is that the leaders of medical education are grossly out of touch with reality and what is the "right" thing to do.

Lots of strong language coming from someone who hasn't started the process himself. You're a rising MS4, right? I don't think you can make any absolute statements until you're on the other side and have, at least, witnessed a match from the hospital's/program's POV.

OP, you got a lot of advice. You should decide which route you feel most comfortable with. Also, page @NotAProgDirector

 

[PsychHopeful2021]

Does anyone by any chance have the official recommendations of the Psych society? I've been looking for it and can't find it...

 

[ritts]

Does anyone by any chance have the official recommendations of the Psych society? I've been looking for it and can't find it...

Specialty Recommendations on Away Rotations for 2021-22 Academic Year

Several specialties have released application guidance and recommendations on away rotations for the 2021-2022 application cycle.

students-residents.aamc.org

 

[Dr. Rafiki]

Lots of strong language coming from someone who hasn't started the process himself. You're a rising MS4, right? I don't think you can make any absolute statements until you're on the other side and have, at least, witnessed a match from the hospital's/program's POV.

OP, you got a lot of advice. You should decide which route you feel most comfortable with. Also, page @NotAProgDirector

You're missing the point. You haven't been through this either, no one has. These are unprecedented times yielding unprecedented recommendations. To say that one should limit their away rotations on the good faith of well-meaning PDs is downright ridiculous.

Why on Earth would anyone take advice from admin / upper management in a time where all we've seen is them falter and fail, be it hospital admin sending residents in with no PPE, or licensing bodies being obsessed with money rather than safety or med school admin forcing students into situations that would neither help them nor protect others. You are telling this poor soul (OP) to limit their chances at matching based on nothing more than a hunch of how this will all play out.

Well I have a hunch too: PDs will continue to take the path of least resistance as they always have. OP, if you want to limit your chances at matching, go ahead. But don't think that PDs will care one way or another and certainly don't think that other students will do the same.

Not too long ago I got into a long back and forth on here about why PDs refuse to take the 3 minutes to google what COMLEX scores mean in order to more fairly judge DO students. But the gist of it was that why would PDs waste their time on such a small percentage of their applicant pool when they can just as easy toss the app into the trash if there isn't a USMLE score to go along with it. Well, the same holds true here: if a program that historically matches people that they know (via auditions, alumnus or whatever) is a place where OP did not do an audition then guess what: OPs app goes in the trash like any other year.

PDs are lazy and will not do what's right. They will do what's easy. You can ignore this advice and in that case, I wish you the very best luck.

 

[Mass Effect]

You're missing the point. You haven't been through this either, no one has. These are unprecedented times yielding unprecedented recommendations. To say that one should limit their away rotations on the good faith of well-meaning PDs is downright ridiculous.

Why on Earth would anyone take advice from admin / upper management in a time where all we've seen is them falter and fail, be it hospital admin sending residents in with no PPE, or licensing bodies being obsessed with money rather than safety or med school admin forcing students into situations that would neither help them nor protect others. You are telling this poor soul (OP) to limit their chances at matching based on nothing more than a hunch of how this will all play out.

Well I have a hunch too: PDs will continue to take the path of least resistance as they always have. OP, if you want to limit your chances at matching, go ahead. But don't think that PDs will care one way or another and certainly don't think that other students will do the same.

Not too long ago I got into a long back and forth on here about why PDs refuse to take the 3 minutes to google what COMLEX scores mean in order to more fairly judge DO students. But the gist of it was that why would PDs waste their time on such a small percentage of their applicant pool when they can just as easy toss the app into the trash if there isn't a USMLE score to go along with it. Well, the same holds true here: if a program that historically matches people that they know (via auditions, alumnus or whatever) is a place where OP did not do an audition then guess what: OPs app goes in the trash like any other year.

PDs are lazy and will not do what's right. They will do what's easy. You can ignore this advice and in that case, I wish you the very best luck.

Dude calm down. Some on here are academic attendings heavily involved in the match and rank meetings. It's not all just random know-it-alls giving advice. And FYI, just the fact that you think PDs are lazy should tell everyone what they need to know about the quality of your advice.