Suppose I should get over my terror of debt.

[Ishiguro]

I would put this in the postbac region, but I would love some nontrad insight into funding postbacs...

I am planning on going to Goucher for my postbac, beginning this June. I just sat down and crunched numbers, though, and momentarily freaked out. It's going to cost me about two and a half times more to do it this way than through University of MD Science in the Evening. The DL: I'm 26 years old and financially ok-ish (no educational or consumer debt, but I'm not sitting on a lot of savings, either); I have a funded MA program to return to after my postbac year-- I won't make money there but can expect to break even; I doubt I will have enough in savings to apply for med school without accruing some debt (ugh the travel costs!). I know I'd get through OK at Maryland, but I want to get this done in a year. I am pretty sure I'll wind up in some sort of general medicine some day; I view medicine as a labor of love with reasonable job security an added bonus-- I don't see the education as an investment for a well-compensated future. I will very seriously be looking at my state medical school and national health service when I apply. Given all this, is a structured program like Goucher worth the investment? My deposit is in, and I am about to sign loan paperwork. I have always managed to scrape by doing what I love with limited compensation in the past (hello, human rights), but the numbers are daunting.

How do you all get used to living in debt?

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[flip26]

I would put this in the postbac region, but I would love some nontrad insight into funding postbacs...

I am planning on going to Goucher for my postbac, beginning this June. I just sat down and crunched numbers, though, and momentarily freaked out. It's going to cost me about two and a half times more to do it this way than through University of MD Science in the Evening. The DL: I'm 26 years old and financially ok-ish (no educational or consumer debt, but I'm not sitting on a lot of savings, either); I have a funded MA program to return to after my postbac year-- I won't make money there but can expect to break even; I doubt I will have enough in savings to apply for med school without accruing some debt (ugh the travel costs!). I know I'd get through OK at Maryland, but I want to get this done in a year. I am pretty sure I'll wind up in some sort of general medicine some day; I view medicine as a labor of love with reasonable job security an added bonus-- I don't see the education as an investment for a well-compensated future. I will very seriously be looking at my state medical school and national health service when I apply. Given all this, is a structured program like Goucher worth the investment? My deposit is in, and I am about to sign loan paperwork. I have always managed to scrape by doing what I love with limited compensation in the past (hello, human rights), but the numbers are daunting.

How do you all get used to living in debt?

I don't think it is worth it.

Having said that, I also did a "structured" post bacc program, and there are benefits, mainly in the priority scheduling of classes. But none of the other "benefits" added any real value for me. I actually have a hard time figuring out if I got what I paid for, really.

PM me if you want details.

 

[nontrdgsbuiucmd]

re: question of getting used to living with debt?

I'm mid 30's or so, have had student debt, mine or spouses, for going on 20 years.

It was a major shock years ago to acquire debt. It gets less uncomfortable over time, as with any other life change.

One way to think about it that help me was to consider that the average fulltime--employed person in the US makes around 45K. Even after paying "my" debt, thx to the education loans that got me to where I am now, I'm earning substantially more than this. This helps me in thinking of debt as an investment; as with buying stocks, there is a cost, as well as a benefit.

The corollary to this is that I tend to be pretty careful of taking on new debt, in the sense of determining if it will help me to be in a better situation as a result of taking on the debt. The cost to this way of thinking is that there are plenty of worthwhile things in life that may not increase earnings potential.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I would put this in the postbac region, but I would love some nontrad insight into funding postbacs...

I am planning on going to Goucher for my postbac, beginning this June. I just sat down and crunched numbers, though, and momentarily freaked out. It's going to cost me about two and a half times more to do it this way than through University of MD Science in the Evening. The DL: I'm 26 years old and financially ok-ish (no educational or consumer debt, but I'm not sitting on a lot of savings, either); I have a funded MA program to return to after my postbac year-- I won't make money there but can expect to break even; I doubt I will have enough in savings to apply for med school without accruing some debt (ugh the travel costs!). I know I'd get through OK at Maryland, but I want to get this done in a year. I am pretty sure I'll wind up in some sort of general medicine some day; I view medicine as a labor of love with reasonable job security an added bonus-- I don't see the education as an investment for a well-compensated future. I will very seriously be looking at my state medical school and national health service when I apply. Given all this, is a structured program like Goucher worth the investment? My deposit is in, and I am about to sign loan paperwork. I have always managed to scrape by doing what I love with limited compensation in the past (hello, human rights), but the numbers are daunting.

How do you all get used to living in debt?

Goucher is a rip off when you can get the same credits at BCCC for one tenth of the debt and, like me, you'll still again admission to medical school. The cost of tuition at Goucher is unjustifiable. Make this as cheap as possible. If you get A's, no questions will be asked. Run (don't walk) from Goucher: the debt from medical school is bad enough and you can no longer defer loan repayments during residency.

 

[Ishiguro]

Wow, a lot more cautioning against the postbac than I expected. I am trying to make the decision that's best for me, personally, and I'm eager to get these classes done in a year. hrm.

 

[dragonfly99]

I'm personally not sure if the formal postbac is worth it. Not sure it accomplishes much more than just doing the classes at U of Maryland. Unless they have some sort of guaranteed admission program, not sure it's worth it.
How much does it cost?

 

[MedLaw]

On the other hand, I believe that Goucher is a well respected program and has competitive admissions. I also believe that it has linkages with many schools (Brown Medical School, Drexel University College of Medicine, George Washington University School of Medicine, Stony Brook University School of Medicine, Temple University School of Medicine, Tulane University School of Medicine, University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine (though this disappears in 2010), and University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine)

You are paying more because of the quality/reputation of the program and the linkages.

 

[Ishiguro]

I'm personally not sure if the formal postbac is worth it. Not sure it accomplishes much more than just doing the classes at U of Maryland. Unless they have some sort of guaranteed admission program, not sure it's worth it.
How much does it cost?

I'll probably have to borrow about $30,000, all told. I think I'd borrow about $10,000 for Maryland.

It's funny; I spoke to the Science in the Evening / premed adviser at Maryland months ago, and she encouraged me to do Goucher if I got in. For me, the benefits are fitting it all into a year, built-in MCAT prep, and the fact that the program has had a 100% success rate over the last eight years or so. Coming from a small college background, I like the small classes, too (though of course this is something I won't have in medical school). I'm not really leaning on Goucher to do a whole lot for me--I don't really believe that it matters where one completes the prereq classes--but I do want the structure and support of a program that does exactly what I want: prepare people for med school in a year. I won't be pursuing a linkage.

 

[glamqueen]

If there is a linkage - why not stay open to it? This process is so incredibly difficult and the above posters who posted where they thought the linkages were posted incredible schools. Getting accepted is a nightmare for even competitive applicants. If there is a linkage program available to you - I'd at least stay open to it.

 

[dragonfly99]

Oh, OK, if they really have a 100% success rate at getting students into schools (which I find VERY hard to believe), or even 80% or something, then I think the 30k is worth it. I don't personally know much about that program. Will you have to move to a different city to go there?

 

[student1799]

I'll probably have to borrow about $30,000, all told. I think I'd borrow about $10,000 for Maryland.

It's funny; I spoke to the Science in the Evening / premed adviser at Maryland months ago, and she encouraged me to do Goucher if I got in. For me, the benefits are fitting it all into a year, built-in MCAT prep, and the fact that the program has had a 100% success rate over the last eight years or so. Coming from a small college background, I like the small classes, too (though of course this is something I won't have in medical school). I'm not really leaning on Goucher to do a whole lot for me--I don't really believe that it matters where one completes the prereq classes--but I do want the structure and support of a program that does exactly what I want: prepare people for med school in a year. I won't be pursuing a linkage.

I went to a name-brand 2-year postbacc, and it cost me a cool $58K. Almost certainly NOT worth it, considering that they've done virtually nothing to help me get into med school. (They didn't provide MCAT prep, and the advising was so bad it approaches criminal.) If I had it to do over, I'd have opted for the public school program instead.

However, the calculus may not be the same for you. For starters, I recall that you expressed interest in going to a "top 10 school," and I believe you have a strong undergrad record. In that case, going to Goucher might be worth it, if it helps you get into the type of med school you'd like to attend. (I'm not going to enter into a debate about whether you NEED to attend a top 10, just trying to figure out the best way for you to reach that goal.)

One thing you should understand about postbacc programs is that their high success rates are usually accomplished primarily through admissions policies (i.e. they accept students who are likely to get into med school in the first place) or attrition (weak students are encouraged to leave the program before the point of applying to med school, and thus don't drag down the success rate). While my program is notorious for employing the latter approach, the one-year programs seem to rely primarily on the former. On that basis, you could argue that if you got into Goucher, that means you don't need them.

But, in their defense, I have heard that these programs (Groucher, Bryn Mawr et al.) do quite a lot for their students, and are really set up to help them succeed. In other words, they WANT you to do well in the premed classes, and they WANT to write you a strong committee letter. Sadly, that is exactly the opposite attitude from what you'll find in premed classes or postbacc programs elsewhere. Having been through two years of absolute hell at the place I attended, I might be willing to pay $30K for a year's worth of support and positive attitude, not to mention the Goucher seal of approval (which I do believe carries weight with adcoms).

One more thing to consider is that most non-residential postbacc programs are absolutely NOT set up to allow you to finish all the classes in a year. Scheduling and class availability would simply not allow it, especially if you went to a public institution. As the old saying goes, "Time is money." And if you get to med school a year sooner, you'll have one more year of a practicing physician's income with which to pay off your loans.

 

[Ishiguro]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Dragonfly, I think it really is a 100% acceptance rate, unless they're gaming the numbers a little bit (possible). They do it by, as Student notes, accepting a pretty small cohort of people (25-30) who they're relatively certain can succeed in med school admissions. Also, many students choose to link-- I think 2/3 of this year's class, so that takes a little pressure off the vagaries of admissions.

Glamqueen, no linking because I have an MA program to finish. It's funded, yay, and it's human rights-oriented with a global health focus, so an OK place to be during the admissions year, I think.

Student, I really appreciate your feedback. You went to Columbia, right? It seems like your program didn't do you too many favors (btw, I really hope something works out for you when the waitlist dust settles-- I went through the admissions process with my partner when he was applying to med and I was applying to grad and it was pretty painful; I can't imagine if we had children, too). I've followed your posts a little, and I decided early on in this process that I would apply only to Goucher and go to Maryland if I didn't get in. My partner lives in Baltimore and my family in Maryland, so I'll be able to economize on living--important to me as I take out loans for this.

I'm going to stick it out with Goucher. My gut feeling when I interviewed was good and I think the $30,000 investment will be worth it. Moreso if getting the prereqs done right gives me some options with regard to med school. I'm not necessarily interested in a top program; I want to be able to have my instate school on the table, if at all possible. That's what I'll be working toward. And, yeah, finishing in a year means another year of medical practice.

Please feel free to PM if anyone wants insight into Goucher...

 

[atomi]

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[Scottish Chap]

Standard response: Don't go into debt for pre-reqs, don't quit your job to do them, do them at the community college if you have to.

Smartest post I've ever read for non-traditional students.

 

[DrMidlife]

Standard response: Don't go into debt for pre-reqs, don't quit your job to do them, do them at the community college if you have to.

Smartest post I've ever read for non-traditional students.

Response before the standard response makes sense:
1. You have to get A's in your postbac; a plan that doesn't net you A's is a bad plan, even if it's cheap.
2. You have to collect faculty recommendations; a postbac that doesn't give you access to tenured letterhead faculty who have time to get to know you can kill your app.
3. Against a weak app, you'd best be willing to sacrifice your financial health. A healthy 401k isn't an app asset.
4. Against a weak undergrad GPA, it's a mistake to assume you can wake up one morning and suddenly be an A student.
5. A student with a 4.0 from MIT can safely take prereqs at a community college, because academic prowess is already demonstrated. A student with a weak undergrad record cannot make such an assumption.

 

[dragonfly99]

I'm generally against taking prereqs at community colleges, unless you are aiming for specific med schools nearby that you know accept credits taken @that particular community college. There are no absolutes, but like it or not, med school admissions is a competitive process, and a lot of adcoms want to see how you stack up against other students bound for things like grad school and med school.

 

[jamesgatz4]

Standard response: Don't go into debt for pre-reqs, don't quit your job to do them, do them at the community college if you have to.

This seems to run counter to many posts in this forum from successful former post-bac, now med student posters. Many of the top post-bac programs explicitly state that working while attending is frowned upon.

Now, I'm not exactly speaking from experience as I'm just starting the process, but, being that I'm in my mid-20s, spending a year of full-time study on the pre-reqs seems like a better plan than working full-time and juggling a class each semester for 3-4 years.

 

[student1799]

This seems to run counter to many posts in this forum from successful former post-bac, now med student posters. Many of the top post-bac programs explicitly state that working while attending is frowned upon.

Now, I'm not exactly speaking from experience as I'm just starting the process, but, being that I'm in my mid-20s, spending a year of full-time study on the pre-reqs seems like a better plan than working full-time and juggling a class each semester for 3-4 years.

I agree with you. I went to a 2-year postbacc full-time, applied this cycle, and have been admitted. I can't imagine how I would have handled my classes if I had been working at the same time.

However, for those who have no choice but to work while taking classes, there's nothing inherently wrong with doing so. You just have to be smart and choose a course load that you can handle along with your job. This may mean that it takes longer to finish your prereqs, but slower is better if it results in a higher GPA. Taking one class per semester and getting A's is much, much better than taking 2 or 3 classes at a time and getting lower grades.

 

[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[DrMidlife]

In support of my post above...

I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you have to say here. My experience and your experience are clearly contradictory.

That said, this is a perfect example of the "get three opinions" strategy in premed planning. I would never trust a premed adviser's unchallenged opinion, and I would never let a single SDN voice change my strategy. This is a fantastic discussion of a complex issue, and it's kind of the whole point of SDN. IMHO.

 

[Ishiguro]

The difference of opinion here really is striking. I'm coming at this with about a 3.8 GPA from a "top" undergrad, but I also haven't taken a math or science class in years. The most quantitative work I've got is some economics, so-- much as I hate to admit it-- I want a supportive atmosphere with other nontraditional students. I think that the ideal program for me would be Harvard Extension-- it's reasonably priced and I could do it in a year and have a committee letter (the committee letter is important to me). For personal reasons, though, I want to be in Baltimore or Washington. I'm not quitting a job; I'm a grad student now, in human rights and health (I'm funded, thank god). That leaves a University of Maryland school or Hopkins/Goucher/postbac things as options. Maryland was not totally certain that I'd be able to get it done in a year. (I'm not that keen on taking a chance with community college classes.) I have heard only good things from Goucher grads, some of whom I sought out independent of the program. Nevertheless, the debt piece is really worrisome. I think, on the balance, that this is ultimately the best possible decision for me. It's fascinating to hear how other people have made it work, though.

 

[dragonfly99]

I would avoid taking most or all of your prerequisites at a community college. It might be OK for some MD schools, but I know several that will not accept the credits.

I think either U of Maryland or Goucher would work, but from what you say, it sounds like Goucher does have a very good track record. It sounds like you might be kind of person who could do this on your own (i.e. good prior GPA in your other degree from a good university and seem highly motivated). The debt is scary, but if you spend more on Goucher and get an almost guaranteed acceptance vs. perhaps slightly lower chance via the U Maryland route (or only higher chance @Maryland but not many connections @other schools) then the extra $ could be worth it. If you end up w/multiple med school acceptance later, I'd really suggest considering going to the cheapest school, particularly if you want primary care.

 

[sarahl86]

The difference of opinion here really is striking. I'm coming at this with about a 3.8 GPA from a "top" undergrad, but I also haven't taken a math or science class in years. The most quantitative work I've got is some economics, so-- much as I hate to admit it-- I want a supportive atmosphere with other nontraditional students. I think that the ideal program for me would be Harvard Extension-- it's reasonably priced and I could do it in a year and have a committee letter (the committee letter is important to me). For personal reasons, though, I want to be in Baltimore or Washington. I'm not quitting a job; I'm a grad student now, in human rights and health (I'm funded, thank god). That leaves a University of Maryland school or Hopkins/Goucher/postbac things as options. Maryland was not totally certain that I'd be able to get it done in a year. (I'm not that keen on taking a chance with community college classes.) I have heard only good things from Goucher grads, some of whom I sought out independent of the program. Nevertheless, the debt piece is really worrisome. I think, on the balance, that this is ultimately the best possible decision for me. It's fascinating to hear how other people have made it work, though.

You could try Towson too My SO went to JHU for undergrad then got a second degree from TU, and both of us are off to med school this fall. I just got a lously ol "regular degree."

**shameless promotion of my UG**

But in all seriousness, if I was in your shoes, you probably will get little if any support from Maryland and for that reason Goucher is a good suggestion. Hopkins has a post-bac but I think its relatively new and despite the name it obviously doesn't have the reputation Goucher does for success - although you will have more opportunities to do ECs at Hopkins. Doesn't sound like you need them though. I can't say much for College Park or UMBC because I have no idea what programs they have for post-bacs...Tough call, but I'd probably go for Goucher.

 

[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[Scottish Chap]

Ok, folks: let's keep this on track by trying to help the OP and refrain from attacking each other.

 

[dragonfly99]

No definite answer about what to do here...the OP does need to be careful about debt if he/she wants to do primary care. However, if the OP has zero educational debt right now, then even doing an expensive postbac will put the OP only in the same position as a lot of people who borrowed money for undergrad. If OP gets admission to a relatively affordable state school, and/or just has more options for med school w/the Goucher program than without (even if it's just from the connections there, etc.) then it might be worth the money to go there.

 

[debbidala]

Just another vote for Towson. I'm a Baltimore resident and looked at the Goucher program, too, but ended up doing an informal post-bacc at Towson. Even though I'm not in the formal program (which I think they've since discontinued), the classes are small, as a 2nd degree student I get priority registration (and I don't HAVE to finish my 2nd degree if I don't want to), the professors are very supportive, and the pre-med chair is well-organized. And it's cheap!

Whatever you decide, I wish you luck!

 

[atomi]

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[Ishiguro]

I don't think it makes sense to compare yourself to others in order to determine an acceptable debt level. I think it would be wise to minimize debt as much as possible without regard for the situation of others. In other words, while it might soften the blow to know that most of your peers are carrying a similar burden, it doesn't change the fact that that burden exists for you, and that you had a opportunity to make it smaller and you didn't take it.

This made me think of a question on debt. Most med students are in their 20s, but there's this magic 30 years old number floating around. Is that the age at which one no longer reports parents' income for financial aid eligibility? I'll turn 30 midway through med school, most likely. My solidly middle-class parents make enough that, according to FAFSA calculations, they'd be able to pay a decent chunk of my education. They wouldn't; I'm funding my education here, but will some of the loans become grants or at least more favorable loans past age 30? I realize med school is not like undergraduates that meet 100% of "demonstrated need" (at my college, this was a very generous, grant-heavy package for most people), but I wonder if the calculations will shift at all.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

i think if you are over 25 you are considered independent and do not need parents income. For my fasfa this year I was considered independent and Im 26.

 

[dragonfly99]

The FAFSA considers all grad students to be independent, unless I am mistaken. However, the vast majority, or perhaps all, medical schools will consider your parents' income in their decisions about giving institutional aid,such as grants or institutional loans, and will require that you turn in your parents tax info from last year. This is because there are many 23yo (or even 30 year old) med students whose parents have a ton of money, and the school doesn't want to give them a bunch of grants just because the student doesn't personally have a lot of $ in his bank account. I think there are some schools (? Northwestern) which do consider students above a certain age, like 30, to be truly independent.

 

[atomi]

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[DrMidlife]

Oh good lord.

Ok, folks: let's keep this on track by trying to help the OP and refrain from attacking each other.

I'm sorry if you guys (atomi and Scottish Chap) are feeling like I'm on the attack. Rather ironic.

Standard response: Don't go into debt for pre-reqs, don't quit your job to do them, do them at the community college if you have to.

Smartest post I've ever read for non-traditional students.

If you're going to issue an absolute, then those of us (half the traffic on this forum) who don't fit into your absolute are going to disagree with you. Atomi, your experience is not universal. Neither is mine. Which is why I choose to say things like "in my experience" instead of saying "standard."

Your experience appears to have been hindered by a low undergraduate GPA, which like I said is going to be an issue no matter where and how you do your pre-med work. The OP has a 3.8, and in that case, the argument against a program like Goucher is even stronger.

Exactly. Hindered applicants are my whole point: half the traffic in this forum is for folks like me who are trying to get into med school with damaged GPAs. As with most threads that have more than 3 posts in them, the conversation in this thread clearly left the "specific advice to the OP" category a long long time ago.

All I'm trying to do here is prevent "a 3.0" from thinking he/she can cut corners like "a 3.8" can. I have no other agenda.

3.0 Avenger out.