surgery semantics

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lennox23

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things that drive me crazy...anyone else?

1) the term "surgeries"
there is no such word as "surgeries". you cannot "go" to surgery, or "have" surgery, you can't say "no previous surgeries". the emergency department cannot ask you on the phone (or should not), when answering a page "are you surgery?" please if they do say last time you checked you were not a discipline or a department!!

that which is practiced by a surgeon = surgery (artform, discipline, department). "go" to Operating room, "have" an operation, "no" previous operations...


2) the term "MVA"
there is also no such thing as an "MVA". there are motor vehicle "Collisions" and the vast majority are no accident! heavy drug/EtOH usage, hi rate speed, unrestrained does not equal an "accident"!


our former chair (the late, great Claude Organ, president of the ACS, editor of Archives of Surgery, mentor to countless surgeons, gentleman, leader, genius, powerhouse) taught us the "semantics" of surgery, taught us to speak "like surgeons" so i try and carry this on as much as possible...

anyone else have any sematics issues?

-OCD about semantics.

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I've had the honor of meeting Dr. Organ (back in early 2005) both in his office at UCSF-East Bay and while he was a guest lecturer at my med school. Fascinating speaker!

I also like how the term "case" is used to replace "surgery" or "operation" a lot these days.
 
things that drive me crazy...anyone else?

1) the term "surgeries"
there is no such word as "surgeries". you cannot "go" to surgery, or "have" surgery, you can't say "no previous surgeries". the emergency department cannot ask you on the phone (or should not), when answering a page "are you surgery?" please if they do say last time you checked you were not a discipline or a department!!

that which is practiced by a surgeon = surgery (artform, discipline, department). "go" to Operating room, "have" an operation, "no" previous operations...


2) the term "MVA"
there is also no such thing as an "MVA". there are motor vehicle "Collisions" and the vast majority are no accident! heavy drug/EtOH usage, hi rate speed, unrestrained does not equal an "accident"!


our former chair (the late, great Claude Organ, president of the ACS, editor of Archives of Surgery, mentor to countless surgeons, gentleman, leader, genius, powerhouse) taught us the "semantics" of surgery, taught us to speak "like surgeons" so i try and carry this on as much as possible...

anyone else have any sematics issues?

-OCD about semantics.


Sounds like you drank the kool-aid. Semantics is just that, and not worth the fuss of going over if you know what they mean. Never buy the hype, the guy may have been a good Dr and speaker, doesn't mean all his pet peevs must become yours. Put down the drink and back away.
 
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2) the term "MVA"
there is also no such thing as an "MVA". there are motor vehicle "Collisions" and the vast majority are no accident! heavy drug/EtOH usage, hi rate speed, unrestrained does not equal an "accident"!

So you're saying it's intentional? I never understood this this one even though the trauma gorillas in my ER are always saying the same thing. So when your tire blows out on the freeway causing you to spin out...it's because you meant for it to happen?
 
So when I call for a surgeon (as an "ER doc") should I ask on the telephone, "Is this the O.R. doctor?" I just KNOW that they would LOVE that.

edit: looks like you're (the OP) wrong on multiple accounts.

sur·ger·y /ˈsɜrdʒəri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sur-juh-ree] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ger·ies for 3–5.
1. the art, practice, or work of treating diseases, injuries, or deformities by manual or operative procedures.
2. the branch of medicine concerned with such treatment.
3. treatment, as an operation, performed by a surgeon.
4. a room or place for surgical operations.
5. British. a doctor's or dentist's office or office hours.

(Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary)

sur·ger·y (sûr'jə-rē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. sur·ger·ies

1. The branch of medicine that deals with the diagnosis and treatment of injury, deformity, and disease by manual and instrumental means.
2. A surgical operation or procedure, especially one involving the removal or replacement of a diseased organ or tissue.
3. An operating room or a laboratory of a surgeon or of a hospital's surgical staff.
4. The skill or work of a surgeon.
5. Chiefly British
1. A physician's, dentist's, or veterinarian's office.
2. The period during which a physician, dentist, or veterinarian consults with or treats patients in the office.

(American Heritage Dictionary)
 
I think its funny how weak individiuals in surgery grabel at the feet of "great people" and THAN post without even looking up the data that they post on. Shows real ignorance.
 
Pompacil, I love your avatar
 
i'm not the only one!
lots of slang terms in the dictionary!


Editorial JACS 2003 Jan 196(1)
How many “surgeries” have you done?


Arthur E. Baue, MD, FACS *
Fishers Island, NY, USA

Recent headlines include “Broken water main delays surgeries at Barnes-Jewish Hospital”[1] and “Even 20 surgeries can’t cut Schlereth out of the action”[2] from the St Louis Post-Dispatch. Will the frequent lay use of surgeries for operations become so common that it will be adopted as common usage rather than slang by language mavens such as William Safire in the New York Times? The other slang use is being “in surgery” rather than being in the operating room. I have been asked how long I was in surgery and I reply, “Since 1954 when I became an intern in surgery.”

The use of the word surgery for an operation or the operating room is jarring for surgeons. As pointed out by Ernst, “the word surgery designates the medical discipline that encompasses preoperative care, intraoperative judgement and management and postoperative care.”[3] Ernst goes on to say, “Why then do we permit our discipline to be demeaned by referring to this fraction of our total care by ‘doing surgery upon the patient’ or ‘taking the patient to surgery.’” “Technical expertise is not meant to be under-rated.” Ernst indicates that surgery is more than cutting and paraphrases Frederick C Coller, “I can teach a janitor to operate but not practice surgery.”

The English physician calls his office or treatment rooms his surgery. Here, however, the correct statement would be “The doctor is in his surgery,” not “The doctor is in surgery.” I do not know whether this expression is still in common use in the United Kingdom. The British surgeon does operations in the operating theatre, suggesting a performance. Catherine Allen, a medical editor, writes about “surgeries.”[4] When she edits manuscripts she uses the following guidelines: 1) surgery is surgical care, surgical treatment, or surgical therapy, the care provided by a surgeon with the help of nurses and other personnel; 2) an operation is what happens between induction of and emergence from anesthesia, incision, excision, and closure—the surgical procedure. Surgical technique is the detail of cutting and sewing. She goes on to say, “Surgery is what a surgeon practices.” “An operation is what a surgeon performs.” In this context, there is no such word as surgeries. Also, neither an operation nor a patient is a case, but that is another problem.

The late Claude Welch noted that, “if we refer to Webster it is not totally incorrect to use surgery as did surgery, went into surgery, took surgery, etc.” He said, “But many of us rail at the loose construction of the term as it is often applied. Webster’s primary definition, before it was diminished by colloquial expressions, is that branch of medical science, surgical practice which is concerned with the correction of deformities and defects, the repair of injuries, the diagnosis and cure of disease, the relief of suffering, the prolongation of life by manual and instrumental operations.”[5] Welch summarizes, “Surgery is a science, an art, a type of practice and a profession with many distinct attributes. To call any one of them surgery is to diminish the value of the whole. Do not confuse the procedure, an operation or its site, the operating room, with a revered science.”

The Second College Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary defines surgery as: “1) The medical diagnosis and treatment of injury, deformity and disease by manual and instrumental operations. 2) An operating room or laboratory of a surgeon or of a hospital surgical staff. 3) The skill or work of a surgeon. 4) Chiefly British—a physician’s office.” As a noun, the word surgery could also include the treatment of other than human disease by methods analogous to those of the surgeon, ie, tree surgery. Surgical means: 1) of or pertaining to surgeons or surgery; 2) resulting from a surgical operation or an injury. A surgeon is one who practices surgery.

Surge comes from the Latin surgere—to raise, rise. The term surgeon comes from an Anglo- French word surgien. This is a contraction from the old French serurgien or cirurgien, an “ien” derivative of cirurgie. Gunn[6] cites the German chirurg going back to the Latin chirurgia and the Russian khererg. Surgery comes from the old French surgerie, which is a contraction of the French serurgiere or cirurgeire. Chirurgeon comes from the French chirurgien, which is from the Greek cheir, which is hand and ergon, which is work. So, the exact origin is one who works with his hands.

Gunn points out that Shakespeare in Julius Caesar wrote: “Flavius, thou art a cobbler, art thou? Truly sir, all that I live by is with the awl, I am indeed sir, a surgeon to old shoes.” From shoes to feet Gunn points out that the specialty became chiropody and penmanship is chirography, not to be confused with choreography, the production of the noble art of dance and theater. For the supernaturally inclined there is also chiromancy—the magic of palmistry. Partridge, in his book Origins, indicates that surgery is “a manual skill: indeed the noblest of all manual skills.” The French use the term operateur for a surgeon more commonly than we do. The barber surgeons are gone but going back to 1745, and now, British surgeons wish to be called Mister, not Doctor, because of that heritage. Surgeons in England were not recognized years ago by the controlling medicine establishment. Gunn writes, “In mythology surgery is personified by the centaur—half man, half horse Chiron, noble teacher Asklepios, Achilles, and patron of chirurgerie the worthiest handiwork of all.”

Can we stave off these incursions on language and the sloppy use of terminology related to our profession? The only way we can do this is to continue to point out the correct use of these words, to deplore the lax terminology used by the lay press and by others, and to correct those who use these terms incorrectly. Unfortunately, slang expressions come into common use and are adopted by society. Fortunately for us, the slang expression surgeries has not yet reached good dictionaries. I hope, we can keep that from happening by maintaining the correct use of surgery and surgeons.
 
i'm not the only one!
lots of slang terms in the dictionary!

You're not going to find many (including surgical colleagues) to agree with you, and perhaps you should consider it as idiosyncratic stickling for something that may have a 'common-law' tradition, but has been supplanted by a written, codified definition, instead of slang (or, the tinfoil hat and grape Kool-aid idea that it's some kind of disheveled conspiracy).

In fact, this person quotes the American Heritage dictionary, and says that "surgeries" is not in there, which is patently wrong. And, if American Heritage and Random House are NOT 'good dictionaries', what is? I daresay that I've not picked up Merriam-Webster or Columbia, but would hazard that the definitions are summarily the same. What about Stedman's or Dorland's?

I mean, I see your point - what's right is right; it is 'anorectic', non 'anorexic', or 'stridulous', not 'stridorous', but the evolution of what is right sometimes changes. When I was a med student, there was a resident surgeon who asked me what 'surgery' was, and I said something on the lines of 'using operative procedures to repair disease and injury', and he told me 'no', and that he (as a PGY-5, after 2 years in the lab) was 'still trying to figure out what surgery was' - after that metaphysical answer, I thought he, too, had been wearing the tinfoil hat.
 
things that drive me crazy...anyone else?

1) the term "surgeries"
there is no such word as "surgeries". you cannot "go" to surgery, or "have" surgery, you can't say "no previous surgeries". the emergency department cannot ask you on the phone (or should not), when answering a page "are you surgery?" please if they do say last time you checked you were not a discipline or a department!!

that which is practiced by a surgeon = surgery (artform, discipline, department). "go" to Operating room, "have" an operation, "no" previous operations...


2) the term "MVA"
there is also no such thing as an "MVA". there are motor vehicle "Collisions" and the vast majority are no accident! heavy drug/EtOH usage, hi rate speed, unrestrained does not equal an "accident"!


our former chair (the late, great Claude Organ, president of the ACS, editor of Archives of Surgery, mentor to countless surgeons, gentleman, leader, genius, powerhouse) taught us the "semantics" of surgery, taught us to speak "like surgeons" so i try and carry this on as much as possible...

anyone else have any sematics issues?

-OCD about semantics.

d-bag:thumbdown:
 
Now if only we can start saying "subluxed". "Subluxated" is just too awkward.


and how about "dilation" instead of "dilatation" -- waste of syllable
 
who cares!!!
this is the kind of **** medicine residents sit around mentally m@sturb@ting about all day.
 
who cares!!!
this is the kind of **** medicine residents sit around mentally m@sturb@ting about all day.

Who cares? That's an excellent attitude. This is exactly the kind of **** that people who are educated actually discuss. One man's mental masturbation, might be one man's intellectual discussion. I know many of a pseudo-intellectual who could say the same about people's infatuations with movie stars and gossip. Yet passing value judgement on either conversation is closed-minded and counterproductive because something valuable could be learned from either.

Maybe something can be learned by this. As well, one should look to other countries and how dictionaries are created. Here in the US, words, definitions, etc are added at the discretion of the dictionary publisher. While in other countries, say France, words and their meaning are closely monitored by the Academy. So just because a dictionary has a meaning of a word which is a colloquialism, neither makes it proper nor makes it Standard English.


Here's something for the bunch.
HPI: 34 yo woman presents with...​

vs​

HPI: 34 yo female presents with...​
Discuss. One is right, the other is used more commonly. Does it make a difference? Not much? Just an intellectual curiosity.

But, one should realize that (1) there are things that are correct (2) there are things that are incorrect and (3) there are times when the correct form must be used. For instance, could answer to the question "how are you" with "I'm good" and sound like a person who does not have command of the English language. Rather, one could learn that the proper answer to that question is "I'm well" and sound like someone who has spent greater that 20 years in schooling.

PS: Surgeons have the balls to use words like "****" and "masturbation" without funny little characters. (I'll allow the computer to decide which is too vulgar for public posting).

PPS: Surgeons are precise with their words and actions. Like one of the poster's comments about "snapped" vs. "fractured." I've had numerous attendings who agree that medico's play fast and loose with terms, using colloquialisms, and do not use the proper term for the proper description. So instead of being closed minded, store that away in some corner of your cranium and perhaps learn from it. You are always free to sound like someone who has flunked out of high school and has not been trained in an academic environment for a majority of your life.
 
Ah yes, France and its glorious language. Perhaps you are referring to movement a few years ago to outlaw the use of foreign words when speaking in French? Seems the French never came up with their own words for things like "email" and "internet", resulting in their natives using the English words. This sent the vaunted Academy into spasms . . .

The point is not who decides what makes it into the dictionary. The point is that the population at large incorporates words and phrases into the lexicon. Whether or not an 'Academy' considers it 'Standard English' has nothing to do with whether it is correctly used or not. The masses determine that, no matter how much the elites within the society object.




Thanks for taking a shot at me (closed minded and sounding like a high school dropout) and then basically repeating what I said (store that away and learn from it). :thumbdown:

By the way, I guess you see no irony between your PS and the PPS?


Actually, yes, that was the point about the PS and PPS. Though if you think about it, I should say now that I think about it, surgeons use language very effectively either in profanity, medically, or socially. If a surgeon thinks somethign is crap they will say crap, if they think its **** they will say ****, if a bone is "cracked" the orthopods will go ape**** that you didnt describe it properly and waste everyone's time with a lecture (don't even get me started on the neurosurgs)...

BTW, I wasn't taking a shot at you, unless you have two screenames... I do believe that you said that you are very careful how you use words in professional instances, which is what I was getting at and what the point of the OPs post was -- basically semantics.

Vive la France!
 
I actually have started using the term "surgerize". It seems to be catching on.
 
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