switching from academics to community?

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kat82

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Has anyone here switched from an academic institution to a community one? Have you been happy with your decision?

I am relocating for family reasons and because of whats available, I may be forced to take a community job (unless I want to take an enormous (35%) paycut to stay in academics). I like working in an academic site now, but its all I know. I love working with residents. I like being in a teaching hospital. I like having all the consults at my disposal. Its convenient, and its fun. Of course, there are cons that come with working in any teaching hospital I guess. But I don't know what "perks" being in the community has to offer. All I can tell for now is more $$ and more functional. But I'm afraid of feeling isolated and bored working by myself. I love working on a team and bedside teaching. Not sure what I'd be happier with.

Any input here is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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I love working with residents. I like being in a teaching hospital. I like having all the consults at my disposal. Its convenient, and its fun... But I'm afraid of feeling isolated and bored working by myself. I love working on a team and bedside teaching....

Any input here is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

If this is what you love about emergency medicine, then you won't enjoy community EM much because all this will be gone. Only you can decide if it is worth enough to you to take the pay cut you describe to keep this aspect of your work life intact.

I think community EM jobs vary widely from understaffed, low moral, high workload shops with high turnover to stable groups with a better work environment. The downside is that these better work environments can be wrecked overnight because many decision makers have no real understanding of the non financial side of the enterprise they are running. What you experience depends on where you end up working. At least in non CMG funded residencies there is something besides the profit motive to consider.

The first job I had our of residency absolutely sucked - it was so bad that I quit after two months but had to hang around for six more to fulfill my contract (and ended up paying back my moving reimbursement). since I left that place has lost two more ED physicians, an OB, and two family medicine guys

My second was pretty good for about a year and then the combination of rising volume (we are unfortunately a medicaid expansion state) and a new EMR wrecked that. Everyone seems to be listening to offers at this point and we have had probably 50% turnover in our nursing staff in the past six months and lost a handful of physicians across all specialities. I am still plugging away but my Texas license came through and am looking at options there. I am anticipating about a six month shelf life here before I am sick of banging my head against the wall.

At least at my residency there was a lot more staff stability than I have seen so far in community practice.

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Has anyone here switched from an academic institution to a community one? Have you been happy with your decision?

I am relocating for family reasons and because of whats available, I may be forced to take a community job (unless I want to take an enormous (35%) paycut to stay in academics). I like working in an academic site now, but its all I know. I love working with residents. I like being in a teaching hospital. I like having all the consults at my disposal. Its convenient, and its fun. Of course, there are cons that come with working in any teaching hospital I guess. But I don't know what "perks" being in the community has to offer. All I can tell for now is more $$ and more functional. But I'm afraid of feeling isolated and bored working by myself. I love working on a team and bedside teaching. Not sure what I'd be happier with.

Any input here is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I agree totally with what OldMil said above, but I'd add this. I think if I had left residency and gone academic, rather than community, things might have gone very different for me in EM. I think I would have had a much longer shelf life as a full time EP. I definitely miss that academic nest feeling, teaching and general feeling that there's something at least slightly motivating the people around you other than the Almighty Dollar, 100% of the time. Or maybe the grass just seems greener, I don't know. You obviously are very experienced, so I'm sure you'll do very well, either way.

Regardless, I hope all goes well for you, and that you find a great job and are happy. Please come back online and post about your experience 6-12 months into it. I think it would be extremely beneficial for the medical students and residents (and myself) to hear how it went, whether positive, negative or "just different." My biggest bit of advice I can give you is to rent the first year of your contract, so you're the least tied down if you need to move on.
 
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Thanks for the responses- whats interesting is that there is actually a lot of turnover at my current job. While we are at an academic site, there is a very corporate feel and the patient load and demands can be really overwhelming. We also have a sucky EMR. But the staff, patient population and to a lesser extent, the salary, keep me going and I'm pretty satisfied there. The community site I'm looking at has a very stable group and a better EMR. I just don't know how happy/unhappy I'd be. I'm in a tough spot here!!

If the salary wasn't so grossly different, I would definitely take the academic job. But taking a 30% paycut is hard to swallow. I am hoping to negotiate but I'm not sure that will be possible.

And Birdstrike we are most certainly renting for the first year for the reasons you mentioned!
 
Thanks for the responses- whats interesting is that there is actually a lot of turnover at my current job. While we are at an academic site, there is a very corporate feel and the patient load and demands can be really overwhelming. We also have a sucky EMR. But the staff, patient population and to a lesser extent, the salary, keep me going and I'm pretty satisfied there. The community site I'm looking at has a very stable group and a better EMR. I just don't know how happy/unhappy I'd be. I'm in a tough spot here!!

If the salary wasn't so grossly different, I would definitely take the academic job. But taking a 30% paycut is hard to swallow. I am hoping to negotiate but I'm not sure that will be possible.

And Birdstrike we are most certainly renting for the first year for the reasons you mentioned!

Just to echo Birdstrike's last point... please do come back and let us know which way you went and how it turned out. I'm currently in residency and would love to hear from people that made precisely the switch that you're describing.
 
Thanks for the responses- whats interesting is that there is actually a lot of turnover at my current job. While we are at an academic site, there is a very corporate feel and the patient load and demands can be really overwhelming. We also have a sucky EMR. But the staff, patient population and to a lesser extent, the salary, keep me going and I'm pretty satisfied there. The community site I'm looking at has a very stable group and a better EMR. I just don't know how happy/unhappy I'd be. I'm in a tough spot here!!

If the salary wasn't so grossly different, I would definitely take the academic job. But taking a 30% paycut is hard to swallow. I am hoping to negotiate but I'm not sure that will be possible.
And Birdstrike we are most certainly renting for the first year for the reasons you mentioned!

Academic medicine is a team sport. Community medicine is an individual sport. When times are good it's probably better to be solo since the compensation is better and it's usually more efficient. When times are bad, not having the filter or support structure of a team for dealing with the negatives can be profoundly isolating and contribute to burnout. Everybody in the corporate world (except maybe honest CEOs) will tell you that compensation doesn't create satisfaction so it may come down to how much support outside of work or how thick skinned you are in terms of liking the community.
 
I may be a minority, but I think it seriously depends on what community gig you pick up. I do miss the cohesiveness and community of academic medicine, but I've been working in the community for over 2 years now post residency and I do not feel isolated or not apart of a team. I joined a democratic group that really has each other's backs, have partners who are financially/politically savvy and are enormously helpful if I feel swamped and quick to back each other up. I know I make more than my academic colleagues, and aside from missing teaching and the fun trauma/high percentage of high acuity cases, I am quite happy with my job.
 
Academic medicine is a team sport. Community medicine is an individual sport. When times are good it's probably better to be solo since the compensation is better and it's usually more efficient. When times are bad, not having the filter or support structure of a team for dealing with the negatives can be profoundly isolating and contribute to burnout. Everybody in the corporate world (except maybe honest CEOs) will tell you that compensation doesn't create satisfaction so it may come down to how much support outside of work or how thick skinned you are in terms of liking the community.

This is an interesting way of looking at it. I do feel like I'm on a team and very supported currently at my academic job. I feel like I have a "crew" with what I do academically in my particular niche. Even when we are in the trenches, I like having people to vent to, joke around with, get food for eachother, etc... I just don't know if I'd be happy "alone" even working side by side with other nurses, PA's and doctors. I like to have discussions, ponder, google things, pull up articles etc. I like going to conference, it keeps me sharp. I wonder if I'd burn out if I stopped doing that. But the money- the money at the community place is so attractive! :)
 
Unfortunately on many days in the community I have very little time to ponder or pull up articles. I do google things and have (very brief) discussions with my collegues about questionable pts. I miss conference as well, but obviously there is none of that in the community. If you work at a place that is double/triple covered you may still feel some of this "team" atmosphere--we vent, joke, etc. Once I am alone on an overnight shift, it does get lonely.

Honestly though, OP, it really seems like you like the things only an academic place can offer. And as it was said above, money doesn't buy happiness. In the community it is much more nose to the grindstone, see that next pt, call the next consultant, go, go, go. That somewhat Socratic atmosphere of academia definitely does not exist out here.
 
One option might be to see if you can pick up a few shifts per month at the academic center, since most are looking for supplemental coverage. It will make it still feel like you're in the game a little bit but also not have the huge paycut of doing straight academics.
 
i'm looking to possibly do the reverse, for the positives kat82 mentioned and like Birdie... hope that my longevity would be better than i'd imagine it right now. also looking to segue into a fellowship and hopefully stay in EM with a side interest.
 
I took an academic job after residency, worked it for 2 years -- then moved to the community for 2 years (a personal life decision, not a professional one) -- and after 2 years after aspects of my personal life changed, left the community and went back to my original academic position.

The differences between the two are stark. Its not to say one is better than the other, but the bigger question is which one suits you best. A great majority of EM physicians find themselves in the community sector, so clearly something is appealing about it.

Here's my personal semi-solicited opinion.

ACADEMIC
I find the academic job to be more fulfilling. It is definitely more of a team environment. The ED is teeming with residents and med students thirsty for knowledge and eager to get it right. It makes mundane things for me exciting again because I get to see it through their eyes. Yes, I do less procedures and management on my own, but I'm fine with that. I mix it with moonlighting and get plenty opportunity to do stuff on my own. In addition, the staffing of the department is entirely different, with more attendings and residents around to see patients vs the community environment where its often single doc +/- MLPs seeing patients. The abundance of staffing makes even the most crazy volume shifts seem so much more manageable and less stressful. I don't feel the pressure of administrators tracking every single metric. I work with an inner city Detroit population and the ED is usually overflowing. We get through it as best we can as quick as we can, but if people wait, that's just the way it is. I think I am paid fairly and competitively, and I supplement it with moonlighting in our community satellite EDs. I work more than I did at my community job (by choice), but I will end up making substantially more because my moonlighting is much easier than my day job so I make good and easy cash. In the end, I believe I am an even better teacher than I am a physician, and this particular academic job suits me perfectly. Some academic jobs have greater emphasis on research production, etc, and you need to determine if that's part of what you want in your career. I also find it a bit annoying at times as there always seem to be meetings on "off days," something I didn't encounter in the community. When it comes down to it, when I close my eyes, I can see myself at this job, for as long as I want to practice medicine, and it will offer ample opportunity to diversify into other administrative roles if I want to slow it down but still be part of the group.

COMMUNITY
This job was a privately owned physician group that owned the contract for 4 EDs within the larger hospital health system -- and was aggresively looking to expand. I got paid an hourly rate, with a graduated partnership bonus after 2 years, reaching max potential after 5 years. Bonuses + base would've probably landed me between 400-500,000 annually. Pay attention -- first thing I mentioned is the money. Seems whenever I was talking about my job, the first thing that came up was the money -- as if it justified the work environment. The EDs were a Level 1, a level 2, a level 3, and a small community 8 bed ED. The level 2 and level 3 were often busier than the level 1 relative to staffing. Depending on the time of day, it was 1 doc +/- 1-2 MLPs. we had scribes. we would never, under any circumstance add another doc despite volumes often being ridiculous because it ate into the partner bonuses. Every single conceivable metric was tracked and your performance relative to everyone else was made public to the group. Every possible complaint was taken seriously and you definitely heard about it. In the group's defense, it ran an incredibly efficient ED and it was easy to take pride in where you worked. It was easy to get things done. But holy crap was it stressful -- from day 1 I was already looking at exit strategies because it freaked me out that I wouldn't be able to keep up at that clip for as long as I wanted to practice medicine. Every single decision was based on how much money it would make or lose the group, and whether the patient was happy. Those that stayed are making some serious bank, and overall, the docs were happy. I was an ultra high performing, chief resident who could hustle with the best of them -- it wasn't that I couldn't handle the environment -- I just didn't want to.

I've been back at my academic job for 3 months. Couldn't be happier. Feels like putting on a pair of old broken in jeans. Just fits. This is best for me -- maybe not everyone. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. But thought you'd want to hear from someone who's been in both places.
 
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I took an academic job after residency, worked it for 2 years -- then moved to the community for 2 years (a personal life decision, not a professional one) -- and after 2 years after aspects of my personal life changed, left the community and went back to my original academic position.

The differences between the two are stark. Its not to say one is better than the other, but the bigger question is which one suits you best. A great majority of EM physicians find themselves in the community sector, so clearly something is appealing about it.

Here's my personal semi-solicited opinion.

ACADEMIC
I find the academic job to be more fulfilling. It is definitely more of a team environment. The ED is teeming with residents and med students thirsty for knowledge and eager to get it right. It makes mundane things for me exciting again because I get to see it through their eyes. Yes, I do less procedures and management on my own, but I'm fine with that. I mix it with moonlighting and get plenty opportunity to do stuff on my own. In addition, the staffing of the department is entirely different, with more attendings and residents around to see patients vs the community environment where its often single doc +/- MLPs seeing patients. The abundance of staffing makes even the most crazy volume shifts seem so much more manageable and less stressful. I don't feel the pressure of administrators tracking every single metric. I work with an inner city Detroit population and the ED is usually overflowing. We get through it as best we can as quick as we can, but if people wait, that's just the way it is. I think I am paid fairly and competitively, and I supplement it with moonlighting in our community satellite EDs. I work more than I did at my community job (by choice), but I will end up making substantially more because my moonlighting is much easier than my day job so I make good and easy cash. In the end, I believe I am an even better teacher than I am a physician, and this particular academic job suits me perfectly. Some academic jobs have greater emphasis on research production, etc, and you need to determine if that's part of what you want in your career. I also find it a bit annoying at times as there always seem to be meetings on "off days," something I didn't encounter in the community. When it comes down to it, when I close my eyes, I can see myself at this job, for as long as I want to practice medicine, and it will offer ample opportunity to diversify into other administrative roles if I want to slow it down but still be part of the group.

COMMUNITY
This job was a privately owned physician group that owned the contract for 4 EDs within the larger hospital health system -- and was aggresively looking to expand. I got paid an hourly rate, with a graduated partnership bonus after 2 years, reaching max potential after 5 years. Bonuses + base would've probably landed me between 400-500,000 annually. Pay attention -- first thing I mentioned is the money. Seems whenever I was talking about my job, the first thing that came up was the money -- as if it justified the work environment. The EDs were a Level 1, a level 2, a level 3, and a small community 8 bed ED. The level 2 and level 3 were often busier than the level 1 relative to staffing. Depending on the time of day, it was 1 doc +/- 1-2 MLPs. we had scribes. we would never, under any circumstance add another doc despite volumes often being ridiculous because it ate into the partner bonuses. Every single conceivable metric was tracked and your performance relative to everyone else was made public to the group. Every possible complaint was taken seriously and you definitely heard about it. In the group's defense, it ran an incredibly efficient ED and it was easy to take pride in where you worked. It was easy to get things done. But holy crap was it stressful -- from day 1 I was already looking at exit strategies because it freaked me out that I wouldn't be able to keep up at that clip for as long as I wanted to practice medicine. Every single decision was based on how much money it would make or lose the group, and whether the patient was happy. Those that stayed are making some serious bank, and overall, the docs were happy. I was an ultra high performing, chief resident who could hustle with the best of them -- it wasn't that I couldn't handle the environment -- I just didn't want to.

I've been back at my academic job for 3 months. Couldn't be happier. Feels like putting on a pair of old broken in jeans. Just fits. This is best for me -- maybe not everyone. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. But thought you'd want to hear from someone who's been in both places.
Very good post.
 
Personal preferences or characteristics aside, Academics is an easier gig.

I've FORMALLY polled 20+ EM faculty at 3 different residency (academic and community) programs of whom have worked in both the community and academic settings. 20/20 say that Academics is a much easier job, most say it is not even close. The real honest ones will laugh and say that with good senior residents, they mostly cruise around the ED chatting up colleagues, patients, checking email, etc...

Sure, depending on your setting or appointment there are other pressures such as research, admin etc., but NONE of the physicians I've talked with would argue that their job is MORE stressful or difficult (subjective, of course) than a busy private job. None.

Now, I'm sure there will be a litany of Academic physicians espousing about the difficulties of their jobs following this post...But this is coming from engaging, in-depth discussions with many professionals who have lived both...in the flesh...not over the internet...or with any agenda....
 
My perspective as only a resident.

Academics is easier when you are actually working shifts, but there are a lot more outside responsibilities.
There seems to be more overall work, for a good bit less pay.

It may be more sustainable due to less time being stressed, but to call one easier than the other is not fair.
 
My perspective as only a resident.

Academics is easier when you are actually working shifts, but there are a lot more outside responsibilities.
There seems to be more overall work, for a good bit less pay.

It may be more sustainable due to less time being stressed, but to call one easier than the other is not fair.

I think it's reasonably fair. Community pays more at the price of being a much more stressful job for the majority of its practitioners. While I am certain there are academic physicians for whom the pay discrepancy is a legitimate worry, most attending EPs are earning enough that cash flow is not a significant day to day stressor. Therefore from an "ease" standpoint, academics clearly wins. Now I do have a lot of sympathy for the poor bastards that are getting paid academic style while grinding out shifts at the affiliated community ED and watch as everyone goes home at midnight while there are still 20 in the lobby and never set foot inside the mothership except for mandatory meetings.
 
These responses have all been SO HELPFUL! thank you so much. I don't know anything other than my academic job. The way I feel now is that I feel well compensated for what I do- its a good salary for a great job (clinically its challenging but I do believe probably much easier and more enjoyable than the community). I feel lucky at the gig I have- sad to leave to be honest. I agree that an amazing salary would not justify a job that I don't really like...
 
I didn't mean to imply that the pay difference is a significant factor in the ease of a job.

I think that some academic jobs result in a lot more overall hours worked.
Not clinical hours, but total time spent.

Maybe this is not the case everywhere.
 
gman,

I breached the topic of "total time or total commitment" with a few of my more academic oriented faculty today during a shift. They seemed to agree that there is A LOT that goes on behind the scenes or that doesn't meet the eye, sure, but they also kinda hinted that they work a LOT less clinical hours each month versus less academic/administration oriented faculty so that they have time dedicated to these pursuits and responsibilities. Two of them, both in their mid 40's, say they work an average of 60ish clinical hours a month so that they can do administration and academics. Both were smiling pretty broadly when I asked "65 hours....in a month?"

Again, n = 1, and I'm not here to rail on Academics. Hell, it's a sweet gig! Support and resources galore, residents to do all the unpleasant aspects, constant collaboration with other specialties, etc.
 
All of the extra hours spent doing academic/admin are definitely a part of it, but its pretty sweet to be doing stuff from home in my PJs, or doing "normal people" work in nice clothes during bankers hours. Those "hours" are also compensated for, just not at the same $$ rate

More importantly I find they create a really good balance and hopefully stave off burnout
 
i've looked into the academic path, and am still considering it strongly.
One of my mentors is very involved in teaching and publications.
She seems to be working every day.
Some of that is by choice. Others don't do nearly that much, but still have a lot of non-clinical commitments.

To go back on what I said earlier, academics probably is easier overall, but it still seems like more overall time for less pay.

If you like the teaching/research/publication part, it can be a very good path.
 
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