Talent...I stand corrected..

[Coati]

I recently posted about the admissions requirements and some of the nuance of these online Pharm.D programs, etc.

In one of the threads there was a discussion around the level of the new applicants, I've seen enough at this point to feel there is something very unsettling about the level of candidate and knowing that these individuals, shall they make it through the program, are going to be responsible for managing others medications. Rather concerning future imo.

This post is a generalization and surely I recognize the fact that there are very well qualified applicants entering these programs who will go on to publish high quality research, deliver great care, etc. Focus on the majority please.

Thoughts from any of the veterans here..? How is it out there

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[Dred Pirate]

definitely a drop off in quality of candidates when we interview

 

[RXDOC1986]

Observing AND being part of the profession for the last 40 years! The drop in the quality of applicants is inevitable!
Due to:
1. Top candidates would have many other options in healthcare, they would be smart enough to research all outcomes, and move on.
2. MORE pharmacy schools, less applicants (due to 1 above) would require the schools to "relax" their admission standards, allowing for the drop.
3. Supply and demand would drive the quality admissions to pharmacy schools
Not throwing shade @pharmacy School Candidates, and there is always exceptional young people that would pick this profession, but we are discussing the norms.

And, Coati, what is your interest in this. Are you a prospective candidate? Do you want to be talked out of OR talked into taking on this profession? Or just a curious bystander?

 

[randompharm]

This is not a surprising fact considering admission standards are non existent and only 19-20 year olds get rick rolled on pharmacy being a good choice these days (and the schools know it which is why they’re panicking), amount of schools, etc. and applicant quality has been decreasing for a long time. You don’t earn the worst projected and worst ranked in healthcare title (facts) for nothing.

What you might find more surprising is that schools now are moving to a “holistic grading” approach, the entire pharmacy program is based on satisfactory/unsatisfactory and no GPA exists, to attract ANYBODY as they are in fear of closing.

 

[randompharm]

Observing AND being part of the profession for the last 40 years! The drop in the quality of applicants is inevitable!
Due to:
1. Top candidates would have many other options in healthcare, they would be smart enough to research all outcomes, and move on.
2. MORE pharmacy schools, less applicants (due to 1 above) would require the schools to "relax" their admission standards, allowing for the drop.
3. Supply and demand would drive the quality admissions to pharmacy schools
Not throwing shade @pharmacy School Candidates, and there is always exceptional young people that would pick this profession, but we are discussing the norms.

And, Coati, what is your interest in this. Are you a prospective candidate? Do you want to be talked out of OR talked into taking on this profession? Or just a curious bystander?

Agreed.

Exceptional? I’m sure there’s some like you said.

Smart (and able to make adult risk/reward decisions and understand ROI)? Hard to imagine anyone post 2020 choosing pharmacy being smart (even years earlier as the data was there, but being generous lol). That’s who the schools are preying on, the young 19-20 year olds with no real world experience who heard they can just take pre reqs and they’ll get a Dr. title/ assume everyone’s going to call them Dr. and they’ll laugh their way to the bank. Of course, they soon realize that’s not the case and come on here in their 2nd/3rd year but feel sunk cost fallacy by then and we have to explain it to them lol.

 

[mentos]

Schools are desperate to fill their 150+ seats, of course there will be a drop in quality. Just look at the NAPLEX pass rates the past few years. It used to be 90%+ pass rate across the board. Now there are schools with 60-70% pass rate.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I guess "I graduated back in the aughts" should be at the top of my resume.

 

[Coati]

Observing AND being part of the profession for the last 40 years! The drop in the quality of applicants is inevitable!
Due to:
1. Top candidates would have many other options in healthcare, they would be smart enough to research all outcomes, and move on.
2. MORE pharmacy schools, less applicants (due to 1 above) would require the schools to "relax" their admission standards, allowing for the drop.
3. Supply and demand would drive the quality admissions to pharmacy schools
Not throwing shade @pharmacy School Candidates, and there is always exceptional young people that would pick this profession, but we are discussing the norms.

And, Coati, what is your interest in this. Are you a prospective candidate? Do you want to be talked out of OR talked into taking on this profession? Or just a curious bystander?

I am not looking to be persuaded in either direction. We can call me a "curious bystander" 😆, I may have found a new username!

 

[RXDOC1986]

I am not looking to be persuaded in either direction. We can call me a "curious bystander" 😆, I may have found a new username!

Have you had one single poster, who is a pharmacist for more than 5 minutes, encourage you to pursue this profession?

 

[farmadiazepine]

The kids coming out of school around where I live are horrible. No work experience. No common sense. All want to do something more that "just be a staff pharmacist". FDU in NJ. The quality of pharmacy students is very poor there. They are just giving away MBA's, too, so long as you pay.

 

[Dred Pirate]

The kids coming out of school around where I live are horrible. No work experience. No common sense. All want to do something more that "just be a staff pharmacist". FDU in NJ. The quality of pharmacy students is very poor there. They are just giving away MBA's, too, so long as you pay.

yup- and there are some schools selling a "master of clinical research" which is also another big ole scam to make more money.

 

[Rouelle]

The perception that the next generation is less capable / less intelligent / inferior has been a common theme for millennia. There is a quote famously attributed to Socrates that essentially says that the youth suck.

Granted, I haven’t had an intern or worked with a new grad for a few years so I’m not as jaded as some. 🙂

 

[Coati]

Have you had one single poster, who is a pharmacist for more than 5 minutes, encourage you to pursue this profession?

Lol can't say I can.. I'd be more intersted in the personal business applications of having a Pharm.D. Zero interest in actual pharmacy work

 

[Coati]

The kids coming out of school around where I live are horrible. No work experience. No common sense. All want to do something more that "just be a staff pharmacist". FDU in NJ. The quality of pharmacy students is very poor there. They are just giving away MBA's, too, so long as you pay.

Lol...I read in a .pdf somewhere that the ACPE will fail no student so long as they pay.

MBA is much more versatile given the assumption that the student undergoing the curriculum is truly invested in learning the applications and concepts of business. Not saying that an MBA is necessary for business, many high schools graduates, or non-graduates for that matter, with great business acumen. The credential itself helps in some hiring situations, granted you're looking for a corporate role. My two cents..

 

[Coati]

The perception that the next generation is less capable / less intelligent / inferior has been a common theme for millennia. There is a quote famously attributed to Socrates that essentially says that the youth suck.

Granted, I haven’t had an intern or worked with a new grad for a few years so I’m not as jaded as some. 🙂

I've seen a handful of new applicants for Pharm.D programs and I was truly shocked (hence the post)

 

[projektreverb]

The kids coming out of school around where I live are horrible. No work experience. No common sense. All want to do something more that "just be a staff pharmacist". FDU in NJ. The quality of pharmacy students is very poor there. They are just giving away MBA's, too, so long as you pay.

I actually interviewed there. It was a disposable interview for me at the time. I got a super bad vibe. Their “school” was in an office building across from the main campus. I got the perception the teachers were just as incompetent as the students.

 

[RXDOC1986]

Lol can't say I can.. I'd be more intersted in the personal business applications of having a Pharm.D. Zero interest in actual pharmacy work

This has to win, best statement of the year SDN award. "business applications of Pharm.D." - I am stumped, baffled, have no idea what that means!
Go get a business degree!
"zero interest in actual pharmacy work" WELL, I am done, will not read or respond to anything else you have to say. Bye.

 

[lord999]

There's still some very good candidates in the classes I teach, those who actually are reasonably enthusiastic to make a difference. I hope that feeling lasts. That said, the quality of students in terms of objective competencies is lower these days, and that is all the health professions. No Child Left Behind worked, I suppose.

What's critically changed is that virtually none of the current admits have actual prior sustained experience in health care unless they came from the military. That's really problematic from the work habits issues as well as relating task prioritization.

But seriously, how stupid do you have to be to screw up a retail job? Sure you be slow, but it's rarely medication knowledge grounds that prevent someone working competently in retail. It's almost always endurance and multitasking at scale for intermiable lengths that ends one.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Lol can't say I can.. I'd be more intersted in the personal business applications of having a Pharm.D. Zero interest in actual pharmacy work

this is one of the dumbests posts I have seen- a PharmD for 99% of the time (if not more) is for actual pharmacy work- it has zero business application (or close to zero)

 

[lord999]

this is one of the dumbests posts I have seen- a PharmD for 99% of the time (if not more) is for actual pharmacy work- it has zero business application (or close to zero)

The sad part is that the usual education in the preclinical era had more classes on how to run your own drug store (accounting, rudimentary supply chain management, and business development) than the current one where those classes were pushed aside for more "relevant" clinical content.

 

[Dred Pirate]

The sad part is that the usual education in the preclinical era had more classes on how to run your own drug store (accounting, rudimentary supply chain management, and business development) than the current one where those classes were pushed aside for more "relevant" clinical content.

now you have to do a pgy-2 to get this - haha.

But seriously- that type of education made sense back when people actually owned their own stores, what percentage of stores are actually indy's anymore? I know of only a few around here

 

[mentos]

The perception that the next generation is less capable / less intelligent / inferior has been a common theme for millennia. There is a quote famously attributed to Socrates that essentially says that the youth suck.

Granted, I haven’t had an intern or worked with a new grad for a few years so I’m not as jaded as some. 🙂

But it's true for pharmacy. Just look at the stats. There are exponentially more pharmacy schools and therefore more PharmDs per year now than before. When there were less pharmacy schools with small class sizes, they were hard to get into so acceptance rate was low. Now there are many more schools with large class sizes and acceptance rate is high. The NAPLEX pass rate used to be 90% across the board, now there are schools with 60/70% pass rates. It's dilution at its finest.

 

[Coati]

This has to win, best statement of the year SDN award. "business applications of Pharm.D." - I am stumped, baffled, have no idea what that means!
Go get a business degree!
"zero interest in actual pharmacy work" WELL, I am done, will not read or respond to anything else you have to say. Bye.

Thank you for the award!! However it seems my comment was misunderstood, what I was trying to convey is that there are more applications to having a Pharm.D than purely retail pharmacy, that I do not have interest in, and it seems that the majority of those who pursued this career for whatever reason feel the same way about their choice. Perhaps you're also in that boat?

What the business comment meant was that there are a plethora of other opportunities that do involve having the need to be very knowledgeable about pharmacy, pharmaceutics, formulation, etc. Which ultimately would require one to either have to partner with a Pharm.D or PhD, or get those credentials on their own. As previously expressed...you don't need a business degree to make business 😁.

These threads are purely for thought provoking conversation. Hopefully this clarifies my original comment.

 

[Coati]

this is one of the dumbests posts I have seen- a PharmD for 99% of the time (if not more) is for actual pharmacy work- it has zero business application (or close to zero)

Seems that my comment here has sparked some controversy, which is not always a bad thing... let the discussion begin!

Agreed with your comment, and 99% of the people who get a Pharm.D will go on to do pharamcy work (retail, ambulatory, institutional, etc.) however the knowledge you gain throughout a standard pharmacy curriculum would prepare one for a broad stroke of work that does not need to be "pharmacy" related. I would argue that it has more to do with the individual and their interests. You could be involved with meaningful work that still helps people and not be stuck behind a counter all day. Will that be the 99%, probably not..but the world is dynamic and ever changing. The pharmacy of the future is not the pharmacy of today.

As always, any and all feedback appreciated!

 

[Coati]

The sad part is that the usual education in the preclinical era had more classes on how to run your own drug store (accounting, rudimentary supply chain management, and business development) than the current one where those classes were pushed aside for more "relevant" clinical content.

Interesting point here.. however other than the medication side, those could be skills learned simply by reading a few books (what a those!?), or taking classes online, most you could find for free.

I could be wrong and there may be a very specific nuance to a pharmacy store, but the basic business principles span all sectors, its just the application that changes ever so slightly.

 

[lord999]

Interesting point here.. however other than the medication side, those could be skills learned simply by reading a few books (what a those!?), or taking classes online, most you could find for free.

I could be wrong and there may be a very specific nuance to a pharmacy store, but the basic business principles span all sectors, its just the application that changes ever so slightly.

I hope you find the same success in business with your analysis skills.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Seems that my comment here has sparked some controversy, which is not always a bad thing... let the discussion begin!

Agreed with your comment, and 99% of the people who get a Pharm.D will go on to do pharamcy work (retail, ambulatory, institutional, etc.) however the knowledge you gain throughout a standard pharmacy curriculum would prepare one for a broad stroke of work that does not need to be "pharmacy" related. I would argue that it has more to do with the individual and their interests. You could be involved with meaningful work that still helps people and not be stuck behind a counter all day. Will that be the 99%, probably not..but the world is dynamic and ever changing. The pharmacy of the future is not the pharmacy of today.

As always, any and all feedback appreciated!

starting to this this is a very good troll post.

I mean, there are a hell of lot cheaper ways to get those skills than the asinine pharmacy tuition -

 

[owlegrad]

I am struggling to think of one non-pharmacy related work my education prepared me for. Education perhaps. Maybe research. Otherwise…I mean it’s an extremely focused curriculum. It has “pharmacy” in the name for a reason.

 

[rxkrafted]

Lol can't say I can.. I'd be more intersted in the personal business applications of having a Pharm.D. Zero interest in actual pharmacy work

Dam. I wonder what you will be learning and getting tested on for 4 years in pharm school?

 

[Coati]

I am struggling to think of one non-pharmacy related work my education prepared me for. Education perhaps. Maybe research. Otherwise…I mean it’s an extremely focused curriculum. It has “pharmacy” in the name for a reason.

You would be correct, and I recognize this...however I had hopes we could all think more broadly here. Not everyone wants to work in retail, and many have no interest in that.

 

[Coati]

starting to this this is a very good troll post.

I mean, there are a hell of lot cheaper ways to get those skills than the asinine pharmacy tuition -

Do any of you veteran’s here realize how valuable your experience and skills are to people interested in creating dynamic new business structures in pharmacy or the healthcare sectors?

There’s not a business person on this planet who cares about drug interactions or chemical composite, but they’d pay a truckload for someone who does.

Thanks for the continued conversation

 

[Dred Pirate]

There’s not a business person on this planet who cares about drug interactions or chemical composite, but they’d pay a truckload for someone who does.

no - no they wouldn't - heck, they can buy a subscription to lexicomp and use it.

The PharmD degree is a professional degree- you get it to do a specific profession.

 

[Coati]

no - no they wouldn't - heck, they can buy a subscription to lexicomp and use it.

The PharmD degree is a professional degree- you get it to do a specific profession.

Indeed it is, the education prepares you for a career in pharmacy. Nothing wrong with that and very admirable, its an important thing in this world to have medication experts.

I also understand that this entire website is meant for pharmacists and medical professionals. It is clear that you all love your profession, at least slightly or you wouldn't still be working in your field.

However, I can bet my life that the ones posting these replies for "worst comment of the year" or whatever else it is are not only completely missing the initial point, but never considered that all of that experience and knowledge they have, especially the seasoned ones, is truly worth something much more than the job they all come on here to complain about being so horrible.

I mean lets face it...they come on to SDN to warn young motivated kids about how bad the profession is, talk about the horrible market analysis, poor salary, etc. If they hate their situation that bad they would identify a way with all of that 20+ years of experience to optimize the retail pharmacy business or come up with a solution to digitally integrate operations like all of these huge tech companies are trying to do, take that idea to an investor group, get the capital, and make an attempt to truly change whatever they do not like for the good of society and THEN come back here to discourage thought provoking threads if it doesn't work.

Anyone can buy a subscription for anything, doesn't mean they know what it is telling them or how to use it. You really don't think the people in C-Suite CVS or J&J understand pharmacy do you? No, they are business people, that's why they employ you. They need your expertise to make the ship sail.

Why not create a viable idea on your own and partner with someone who understands business? That was the entire premise of the original point.